bad customers and court cases - summary2

Sat Feb 1 03:33:23 PST 2003

hi ya all ...

thanx for the "insight" ... i think its good practice
for questions that the court will be asking too ... :-)

and, for clarifications ...
	- the small claims case has been filed ... court date
	is coming up

and for another clarification...
	- all the problems of passwd and other issues came
	up AFTER my last day of "official work"

	- all work done after "last day" has NOT been billed
	and is not of the original court case for previous 
	months of their unpaid invoices
		ie they got about week - 2 weeks of free help...

	- no problems of work done in previous months and of
	the unpaid invoices.. but, 1.5-2 months AFTER the last
	invoices ... with phony made up excuses of their own boo-boos
	like "passwd problems" which is a 2-5 minute problem
	( an obvious attempt to wiggle out of paying the past due
	  invoices ... or so goes my limited mentality

	- another tidbit... they moved from one bldg to another...
	and i told um i wont be going with them...
	which made them happy ... :-)  ( also was end of my term anyway )

and for other side issues...
	- first thing i do when i go into new clients offices..
	- what's the security and computer/access/network policy
		( 90% does not hve one.. :-)
	- what's the budget for what we're in discussions for
	- what's the task and what was/is their plan of action

	- than i poke holes at it... i mean, give um alternatives
	and probably a lower bid than what they had...
	or more than likely, where they "need help"...

	- end result is usually slightly different or drastically 
	different than what they thought they needed... or their
	expected budget... if they agree... we're in biz... 
	if not... it was a "free education" on both sides..

and just my style, that i wont get along with micro-managers that
dont know how to setup/admin their boxes/network ... as was this case..
	- lots of flamewars ... i mean education and analysis :-)

	- they had hired at least 3 others i know about, to do the
	same work.. but i'm the one that fixed their problems
	( 1 of whom i'm good buddies with now... so we both
	( crack up at what problems the client got themself into now

	- i think it takes balls... for someone to say... "hey, i hear you're
	  taking over this account, watchout for this, that and foo-bar"
	  that they did or tried or was trying to fix... etc ...

thanx
alvin

On Fri, 31 Jan 2003, Jim wrote:

jim> > thanx to those that replied ...  but...
jim> > 	- question still stands... though i/we know the answer
jim> > 	( how long does it take you to log into a box that you're
sitting
jim> > 	( in front of... and have permission to change its root passwd
jim> 
jim>  On a bad day: 5 minutes.  (About one step every 30 seconds but most
jim>  of the time is waiting for the BIOS to get me to the LILO prompt).

yupp ... as is the case for most admins .. and "normal users"

jim>  My directions have been battle tested on the Internet for several 
jim>  years.  They've been refined, even updated for GRUB (which I omitted
jim>  from my summary as irrelevant to Alvin's case).  EVERY STEP IS THERE 
jim>  FOR A REASON!

ditto ... and they had branch offices in other countries too
and they too know how to get into the systems w/o passwds 

----

s> I don't want to ruin your day, but it sounds like there's an
s> aspect of lawsuit with which you're unfamiliar.  Just because you
s> win doesn't mean you get paid.  If it is a small-claims case,
s> with the limit of $5K maximum, there is no particular recourse if
s> the client is ordered to pay but does not pay.  In small-claims,
s> too, the judgement is final and there is no appeal.

..
s>  Collecting a judgement in a lawsuit can be quite difficult. 

yup... know a little about collecting after someone wins a court case
and have helped others collect their $$$ too ....
	( i like it when we can get a "writ of execution" )
	and until than.... one step at a time

and actually... you can file up to 2 small claims cases... $10K maximum
if you're doing the proper paperwork i suppose ...

so far, havent lost any court cases... or arbritration that is..
( first court case of my own ....

mark> It sounds like they were paying you to give them (and document) root
mark> access.

nah... didn't bill um for "how to get root passwd".... 2-3 days AFTER my
last day with um ... 
	- there was no exit interview either etc..etc.. 

mark> While that may be true, it's not going to win you any sympathy in a
mark> court of law, and if you displayed any of that attitude while on the
mark> job, you probably don't have a leg to stand on (IANAL).  As a
mark> consultant, you should always be the epitome of professionalism, no
mark> matter what your opinion of the client or their ability.

yup... good point.... i need to prepare and change my ways for court ...
	leave my attitude at the door as many of you has posted

and during the course of the day.... if they start it... i'll usually
take the bait and there'd be some flame wars.... 
	- but i alwayz post both sides of the coin ... and let them decide
	which they want

mark> That they are left in an untenable situation actually says more
mark> about your ability as a consultant, rather than their knowledge of
mark> computers.

another tidbit... they hired someone else about 3 months before "the shit
hit the fan" ... when they moved from one bldg to antoher...
	- that new person wanted to do everything himself...
	and so it went ... till they figured out that they 
	couldnt get root passwd ... even though its been documented
	on paper on the machines... probably a dozen times... :-)

mark> If you were an employee of mine, you'd be headed quickly for the
mark> door about now.

usually, i quit long before that :-)

mark> Just to state the obvious, if your customers were smart enough to
mark> understand all this stuff on their own, they'd never have had to
mark> hire you in the first place.  If you're selling your expert
mark> knowledge, then you have to package it appropriately.

yup... everything i do is documented ....
	- heavily documented ... as to who changed what, when, where and
	why

documented enough, that they've tried to do it their own way... make up
their own changes and break the "process" ... sorta fun to watch...

thanx again all for your comments...
alvin