From wingedpower at gmail.com  Tue Jan  3 10:30:14 2006
From: wingedpower at gmail.com (Wing Wong)
Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 10:30:14 -0800
Subject: Remote power management solutions?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1051231153047.23023A-100000@Maggie.Linux-Consulting.com>
References: <200512312249.jBVMnMib091154@prometheus.gangofone.com>
	 <Pine.LNX.3.96.1051231153047.23023A-100000@Maggie.Linux-Consulting.com>
Message-ID: <7097bd8c0601031030n395d5b31hef36bfcee7b2c061@mail.gmail.com>

Alvin,

I thought UL listing was only required if you wanted to give potential
buyers assurances that your product won't spontaneously combust on them? :)
Ie, for resale/sale purposes.

Rich,

If your USB HD are over heating, then your best bet is to get new chassis
for them. My guess is that one of the following is occuring:
- high speed HD in a low air flow chassis (replace with chassis with good
airflow or slower hd)
- hd never spins down, constantly being accessed(check the sleep/timings on
the hd... replace chassis with better airflow)

The remote-power-off solution works to reset your HD, but you now face data
corruption and premature HD death via excessive heat and power cycling.

Even if you shelled out for the remote power equipment, you'd end up
shelling out for more later to replace the HD or the chassis PSU after they
fail from overheating/power-cycling.

Wing

PS.

Funny story.. I was asked to implement an automated power-cycle loop on a
device to generate a response signal from a remote modem device. The
interval was to power-cycle(RPC power strip used/scripted telnet session)
the modem like once every 15 minutes. Worked like a charm for like 2 weeks.
Then, we stopped getting the signal. Funny. Seems like the device was
malfunctioning. Replaced it. Worked again. 3 days later, it failed. That's
odd. Replaced it with yet another good modem. Died 5 days later. Hmm...
after much ado about how they can't fail because of power-cycles and such, I
changed the interval to something less intensive and the modems stopped
failing... that is, until a few weeks later...

Moral of the story: automated remote power cycling can be great... but can
be expensive in the long run. :)


On 12/31/05, Alvin Oga <alvin at mail.linux-consulting.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, 31 Dec 2005, Nick Christenson wrote:
>
> > > Has anyone seen anything like this, or built one, or have plans for
> building
> > > one?  I don't mind cobbling something together using an OTS power
> strip, but
> > > I'm trying to avoid spending hundreds of dollars if possible.
>
> you(anybody) can "build one"
>         - use dtmf circuits if you want to dialin with a phone
>         - use embedded tcp/ip ( $25 ) microcontroller for ethernet control
>         - use an SCR to turn on/off the 110v devices .. but it'd
>         be lot cheaper/easier to use 12v control circuits to control
>         the (12v/5v/3.3v) atx power supply
>
> - problem is the required UL approvals when playing with 110v ac
>
> off the shelf ones run $100 - $1000 but averaging $500 or more
>         - less $$ for less controls and less features :-)
>
> c ya
> alvin
>
>


--
Wing Wong
wingedpower at gmail.com
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From bobs at tellme.com  Tue Jan  3 12:04:54 2006
From: bobs at tellme.com (Bob Sutterfield)
Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 12:04:54 -0800
Subject: Remote power management solutions?
Message-ID: <B8E24C3AF01492459438BFA2D6ECBF73053DECAD@EXCH.sea.tellme.com>

Wing Wong wrote:
> I thought UL listing was only required if you wanted
> to give potential buyers assurances that your product
> won't spontaneously combust on them? :)

Check your homeowner's insurance.  If the inspectors poring through the
ashes of your house find a pile of slag that used to be unattended
homebrew 110V wiring projects, that would provide them with a tempting
opportunity to deny your claim.



From wingedpower at gmail.com  Tue Jan  3 14:52:55 2006
From: wingedpower at gmail.com (Wing Wong)
Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 14:52:55 -0800
Subject: Remote power management solutions?
In-Reply-To: <B8E24C3AF01492459438BFA2D6ECBF73053DECAD@EXCH.sea.tellme.com>
References: <B8E24C3AF01492459438BFA2D6ECBF73053DECAD@EXCH.sea.tellme.com>
Message-ID: <7097bd8c0601031452x4d6bbc7fl96e2cf0b4ecc0f94@mail.gmail.com>

Good to know. Thanks for the FYI.

Wing. (definitely another vote for getting new chassis for those HD boxes)

On 1/3/06, Bob Sutterfield <bobs at tellme.com> wrote:
>
> Wing Wong wrote:
> > I thought UL listing was only required if you wanted
> > to give potential buyers assurances that your product
> > won't spontaneously combust on them? :)
>
> Check your homeowner's insurance.  If the inspectors poring through the
> ashes of your house find a pile of slag that used to be unattended
> homebrew 110V wiring projects, that would provide them with a tempting
> opportunity to deny your claim.
>
>


--
Wing Wong
wingedpower at gmail.com
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From alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com  Tue Jan  3 20:51:40 2006
From: alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com (Alvin Oga)
Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 20:51:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Remote power management solutions?
In-Reply-To: <7097bd8c0601031030n395d5b31hef36bfcee7b2c061@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1060103204945.12850A-100000@Maggie.Linux-Consulting.com>


On Tue, 3 Jan 2006, Wing Wong wrote:

> I thought UL listing was only required if you wanted to give potential
> buyers assurances that your product won't spontaneously combust on them? :)
> Ie, for resale/sale purposes.

yes.. i agree about resale/etc..

but if you have a home brew stuff plugged into the 110vac, and it
caused the fire, according to the fire dept, i'm not sure what the
"home owners insurance" will do ..
 
c ya
alvin



From alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com  Tue Jan  3 20:55:26 2006
From: alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com (Alvin Oga)
Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 20:55:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Remote power management solutions? humm :-)
In-Reply-To: <B8E24C3AF01492459438BFA2D6ECBF73053DECAD@EXCH.sea.tellme.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1060103205328.12891A-100000@Maggie.Linux-Consulting.com>


hi ya bob

On Tue, 3 Jan 2006, Bob Sutterfield wrote:

> Wing Wong wrote:
> > I thought UL listing was only required if you wanted
> > to give potential buyers assurances that your product
> > won't spontaneously combust on them? :)
> 
> Check your homeowner's insurance.  If the inspectors poring through the
> ashes of your house find a pile of slag that used to be unattended
> homebrew 110V wiring projects, that would provide them with a tempting
> opportunity to deny your claim.

:-0 i swear, i didn't read your email before posting about insurance :-)

and/or event he local fire dept inspectors that happen to show up
and they did/do show up randomly ..

	- they don't like to see power strips plugged into
	other power strips either ... for which they do
	come back to verify it's been fixed

c ya
alvin




From sigje at sigje.org  Wed Jan  4 17:32:10 2006
From: sigje at sigje.org (Jennifer Davis)
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 17:32:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Tools of the Trade Seminar - Security
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601041722290.16686@slick.sigje.org>


Event: Tools of the Trade Seminar - Security
Date: Feb 18, 2006
Time: 10am-5pm
RSVP: (YOU MUST RSVP FOR THIS EVENT)
http://www.mollyguard.com/event/23147234
Location: Yahoo Inc! 701 First Avenue Sunnyvale, CA

This is the first in a series (if popular) of seminars to address specific 
applications, and resources that are useful to a system administrator. 
The day event will be tutorial style.  You will learn how to use specific 
tools, and share tips/tricks with your peers.  This event is free!  You 
_must_ register in order to attend.

We are still finalizing session topics (and are open to suggestions) but 
session topics may include nmap, nessus, snort, tripwire, ip filter, 
ethereal, netstat, tcpdump, ngrep, sleuthkit, syslog-ng, snare, sec, 
and/or argus.


--
Jennifer Davis
BayLISA Board of Directors


From alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com  Thu Jan  5 02:13:53 2006
From: alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com (Alvin Oga)
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 02:13:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: rack-n-shelfs
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1060105020012.22015A-100000@Maggie.Linux-Consulting.com>


hi ya

- does anybody have a favorite vendor for shelfs for 4-post racks
  ( 29" deep chatsworth 4-post racks, with square holes :-0 )

	- i prefer custom metal, but for sanity's sake,
	i wanna see what other folks do locally :-)

	- local vendors is preferred over online webstores

- they already bought 11x 4-post racks but no shelfs and
  no cable management yet :-)

	- their idea of (re)using the 2-post telco rack 
	shelf doesn't work :-)

	- their idea of (re)using the dell 2-post sliding rails
	to be used in the 4-post racks wont work either :-)
	and those puppies runs say $150/$200 a set vs a 
	$20 custom metal rack shelf :-)

- moving ( corp network infrastructure ) is fun isn't it :-)
	- it'd be fun to move and carry 12x 50lb tripplite ups

thanx
alvin

btw.. for those that wanted the CRTs .. i'm still waiting
      for the ceo's to say take away the old crts and pc
	( the current get-out-of-the-office-space is set for mid jan )







From dsmith at FinancialEngines.com  Thu Jan  5 07:58:50 2006
From: dsmith at FinancialEngines.com (David Smith)
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 07:58:50 -0800
Subject: rack-n-shelfs
Message-ID: <17D60EFECB2C044097D6C4336DD8ED75568036@INF-EXCH-SJC-01.fngn.com>

I've had good luck with these guys:

http://www.racksolutions.com/



----
David Smith <dsmith at financialengines.com>
Voice: 650-565-7750 Fax: 650-565-4905 

432F 465C 5866 FC46 5B19 EAC6 AED3 E032 F49B 62CF

 
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-baylisa at baylisa.org [mailto:owner-baylisa at baylisa.org] On
Behalf Of Alvin Oga
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 2:14 AM
To: baylisa at baylisa.org
Subject: rack-n-shelfs


hi ya

- does anybody have a favorite vendor for shelfs for 4-post racks
  ( 29" deep chatsworth 4-post racks, with square holes :-0 )

	- i prefer custom metal, but for sanity's sake,
	i wanna see what other folks do locally :-)

	- local vendors is preferred over online webstores

- they already bought 11x 4-post racks but no shelfs and
  no cable management yet :-)

	- their idea of (re)using the 2-post telco rack 
	shelf doesn't work :-)

	- their idea of (re)using the dell 2-post sliding rails
	to be used in the 4-post racks wont work either :-)
	and those puppies runs say $150/$200 a set vs a 
	$20 custom metal rack shelf :-)

- moving ( corp network infrastructure ) is fun isn't it :-)
	- it'd be fun to move and carry 12x 50lb tripplite ups

thanx
alvin

btw.. for those that wanted the CRTs .. i'm still waiting
      for the ceo's to say take away the old crts and pc
	( the current get-out-of-the-office-space is set for mid jan )








From windsor at warthog.com  Sat Jan  7 01:44:51 2006
From: windsor at warthog.com (Rob Windsor)
Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 03:44:51 -0600
Subject: rack-n-shelfs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1060105020012.22015A-100000@Maggie.Linux-Consulting.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1060105020012.22015A-100000@Maggie.Linux-Consulting.com>
Message-ID: <43BF8D93.9040403@warthog.com>

APC Cabinets vs. CPI cabinets -- APC Cabinets had RU numbering up the 
rails and half-doors (available) on the back.

I did not see this as an available option on the CPI cabinets when we 
bought them (couple of years ago).

Rob++

Alvin Oga wrote:
> hi ya
> 
> - does anybody have a favorite vendor for shelfs for 4-post racks
>   ( 29" deep chatsworth 4-post racks, with square holes :-0 )
> 
> 	- i prefer custom metal, but for sanity's sake,
> 	i wanna see what other folks do locally :-)
> 
> 	- local vendors is preferred over online webstores
> 
> - they already bought 11x 4-post racks but no shelfs and
>   no cable management yet :-)
> 
> 	- their idea of (re)using the 2-post telco rack 
> 	shelf doesn't work :-)
> 
> 	- their idea of (re)using the dell 2-post sliding rails
> 	to be used in the 4-post racks wont work either :-)
> 	and those puppies runs say $150/$200 a set vs a 
> 	$20 custom metal rack shelf :-)
> 
> - moving ( corp network infrastructure ) is fun isn't it :-)
> 	- it'd be fun to move and carry 12x 50lb tripplite ups
> 
> thanx
> alvin
> 
> btw.. for those that wanted the CRTs .. i'm still waiting
>       for the ceo's to say take away the old crts and pc
> 	( the current get-out-of-the-office-space is set for mid jan )
> 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Internet: windsor at warthog.com                             __o
Life: Rob at Carrollton.Texas.USA.Earth                    _`\<,_
                                                        (_)/ (_)
"They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance."
   -- Major General John Sedgwick


From ulf at Alameda.net  Sat Jan  7 01:53:51 2006
From: ulf at Alameda.net (Ulf Zimmermann)
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 01:53:51 -0800
Subject: rack-n-shelfs
In-Reply-To: <43BF8D93.9040403@warthog.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1060105020012.22015A-100000@Maggie.Linux-Consulting.com> <43BF8D93.9040403@warthog.com>
Message-ID: <20060107095351.GD83399@evil.alameda.net>

On Sat, Jan 07, 2006 at 03:44:51AM -0600, Rob Windsor wrote:
> APC Cabinets vs. CPI cabinets -- APC Cabinets had RU numbering up the 
> rails and half-doors (available) on the back.
> 
> I did not see this as an available option on the CPI cabinets when we 
> bought them (couple of years ago).

Some of the CPIs do had it 2 years ago, we bought some relay racks and
quadra frame, I think the relay racks and the roundhole quadra frame did,
but I would have to check. We took the quadra frames out a while ago,
replaced them with HP 10000 cabinets.

The quadra server racks were not bad for open 29" deep square hole.
Only wished they would have them in 8', but no. As we are basically
a complete HP shop and have certain customers which look at "look",
we decided to use HP cabinets when we expanded.

-- 
Regards, Ulf.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-865-0204
You can find my resume at: http://seven.Alameda.net/~ulf/resume.html


From deirdre at deirdre.net  Sat Jan  7 02:01:28 2006
From: deirdre at deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse Moen)
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 02:01:28 -0800
Subject: rack-n-shelfs
In-Reply-To: <20060107095351.GD83399@evil.alameda.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1060105020012.22015A-100000@Maggie.Linux-Consulting.com> <43BF8D93.9040403@warthog.com> <20060107095351.GD83399@evil.alameda.net>
Message-ID: <0A703BC2-4CD0-41A6-ADB5-5C485B9344C0@deirdre.net>

On Jan 7, 2006, at 1:53 AM, Ulf Zimmermann wrote:

> Some of the CPIs do had it 2 years ago, we bought some relay racks and
> quadra frame, I think the relay racks and the roundhole quadra  
> frame did,
> but I would have to check. We took the quadra frames out a while ago,
> replaced them with HP 10000 cabinets.

I'm not much of a rack person, but the level three facility in San  
Diego has double relay racks, which the network admins loved once  
they got the right shelves.

http://www.racksolutions.com/double-relay-racks.shtml

-- 
_Deirdre                                             http://deirdre.net




From alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com  Sat Jan  7 02:16:48 2006
From: alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com (Alvin Oga)
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 02:16:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: rack-n-shelfs
In-Reply-To: <20060107095351.GD83399@evil.alameda.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1060107020551.30523C-100000@Maggie.Linux-Consulting.com>


hi ya

On Sat, 7 Jan 2006, Ulf Zimmermann wrote:

> On Sat, Jan 07, 2006 at 03:44:51AM -0600, Rob Windsor wrote:
> > APC Cabinets vs. CPI cabinets -- APC Cabinets had RU numbering up the 
> > rails and half-doors (available) on the back.

the 4-post quadra ( cpi ) has "1U" markins on the front 
and is "square holes" vs nice thread rails

them tinnermann screws is about $0.80 per set for M6 ( tinnerman + screw )
and is about $0.21 for 10-32

--------

the 6' cablemanagement is about $40 ( 1Us ) vs $60 for 3Us (rough widths)  

the shelf ... the distributors didn't have it, so i had my little
metal shops folks make a prototype 29" deep 4-post shelf .. ( 3hr job
to get a prototype shelf, i'd say that is damned good )

	- i'll probably get a bunch made and will have extras made

	- the question is to paint it neon pink or florescent green :-)

i even got just the one the rear half-bracket to extend the slides to fit
into the 29" deep cabinets

all done locally in 24hrs with local distributors and picked up at 
their will call dept
	- anybody can order from online .. but not everybody
	carries it in stock that one can go pick up in person
	within 2-4hrs

!#done

- patt-patt or a swift kick in the butt :-0 to get moving on other
  items :-)

c ya
alvin
- the throw away crt issue is still flipping and flopping within
  management decisions 



From sigje at sigje.org  Sun Jan  8 18:47:09 2006
From: sigje at sigje.org (Jennifer Davis)
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 18:47:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Upcoming ACCU event - Making Data Disappear with Radia Perlman
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601081845320.28330@slick.sigje.org>


When:      Tuesday, January 10, 2006
Topic:     Making Data Disappear
Speaker:   Radia Perlman
Time:      7:00pm
Where:     eBay Town Hall (next to PayPal/eBay)
            2161 North First St
            San Jose, CA 95131
Map:       <http://tinyurl.com/cdg5u/>
Cost:      Free
More Info: <http://www.accu-usa.org>

It's difficult to ensure that data has been completely deleted,
especially if it must be robustly available before it expires.
To be robustly recoverable, there must be copies on backup
media,
stored in many different locations. It would be infeasible to
ensure that all copies of a file get deleted. The basic solution
is to encrypt the data, store it in encrypted form, and then
throw away the key. This talk describes a system that
centralizes
the expense and expertise of key management, but in a way with
minimal trust in the key managers, so that key management and
storage can both be outsourced. This talk describes how to do
time-based deletion (where the expiration time of the file is
declared when the file is created), and on-demand delete (where
an individual file is deleted without prior plan of deletion
time).

Radia Perlman is a Distinguished Engineer at Sun Microsystems.
She is known for her contributions to bridging (spanning tree
algorithm) and routing (link state distribution) as well as
security (sabotage-proof networks).

She is the author of the textbook Interconnections: Bridges and
Routers, and co-author of Network Security: Private
Communication
in a Public World, two of the top 10 Networking reference books,
according to Network Magazine.

Dr. Perlman is one of the networking industry's 25 most
influential people, according to Data Communications Magazine.
She has about 50 issued patents in the fields of routing and
security. She has a PhD in computer science, degrees in
mathematics from MIT, and an honorary doctorate from the Royal
Institute of Technology in Sweden.



From sigje at sigje.org  Mon Jan  9 02:24:42 2006
From: sigje at sigje.org (Jennifer Davis)
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 02:24:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Member Services...
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601090221370.29889@slick.sigje.org>


Do members, potential members see value in any of the following? (please 
discuss)

- shell account
- resume posting
- @baylisa.org mail account or alias
- newsletter

Should the member directory be public?  or just browseable to members 
only? or a mixture of both, with members able to choose whether they are 
shown at all, or only to members?

Thanks!

Jennifer



From stripes at tigerlair.com  Mon Jan  9 08:10:40 2006
From: stripes at tigerlair.com (stripes)
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:10:40 -0500
Subject: Member Services...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601090221370.29889@slick.sigje.org>; from sigje@sigje.org on Mon, Jan 09, 2006 at 02:24:42AM -0800
References: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601090221370.29889@slick.sigje.org>
Message-ID: <20060109111040.A30029@tigerlair.com>

On Mon, Jan 09, 2006 at 02:24:42AM -0800, Jennifer Davis wrote:
> Do members, potential members see value in any of the following? (please 
> discuss)
> 
> - shell account

Oh yeah :)

> - resume posting

Of course.

> - @baylisa.org mail account or alias

Goes good with the resume posting.

> - newsletter

It depends on the content you want in there.

> Should the member directory be public?  or just browseable to members 
> only? or a mixture of both, with members able to choose whether they are 
> shown at all, or only to members?

I would not have anyone's email address public. ISC^2 (The CISSP certification
group) does their directory right: They do an opt-in, and I don't think anyone
has opted in.

In a world of more junk snail mail and spam,  I'm not for this.

-Anne
--
It might look like I'm doing   (\`--/') _ _______ .-r-.  
nothing, but at the cellular    >.~.\ `` ` `,`,`. ,'_'~`.          
level, I'm really quite busy.  (v_," ; `,-\ ; : ; \/,-~) \            
stripes at tigerlair dot com    `--'_..),-/ ' ' '_.>-' )`.`.__.')   
stripes at brickbox dot com    ((,((,__..'~~~~~~((,__..'  `-..-'fL    


From sigje at sigje.org  Mon Jan  9 08:29:18 2006
From: sigje at sigje.org (Jennifer Davis)
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 08:29:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Member Services...
In-Reply-To: <20060109111040.A30029@tigerlair.com>
References: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601090221370.29889@slick.sigje.org>
 <20060109111040.A30029@tigerlair.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601090828530.29889@slick.sigje.org>

>
> I would not have anyone's email address public. ISC^2 (The CISSP certification
> group) does their directory right: They do an opt-in, and I don't think anyone
> has opted in.

Directory doesn't have to contain email addresses.  Could just be names...

Jennifer


From jxh at jxh.com  Mon Jan  9 08:52:51 2006
From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein)
Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 10:52:51 -0600
Subject: Member Services...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601090828530.29889@slick.sigje.org>
References: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601090221370.29889@slick.sigje.org> <20060109111040.A30029@tigerlair.com> <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601090828530.29889@slick.sigje.org>
Message-ID: <43C294E3.5080000@jxh.com>

> Directory doesn't have to contain email addresses.  Could just be names...

Our form has a checkbox for this, which we have never used, but I think 
we store(d) it.  It was open by default, therefore opt-in, but the 
definition of "Directory" was never given.

I get so much spam as it is, I could live with email addresses in the 
directory, but I'd prefer opt-in and readable only to members.


From sigje at sigje.org  Mon Jan  9 09:54:04 2006
From: sigje at sigje.org (Jennifer Davis)
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 09:54:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Upcoming BayLISA Events - January & February
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601090932040.6068@slick.sigje.org>


Bunch of events coming up for BayLISA.  List of RSVP-able events here:
http://www.mollyguard.com/org/9207001 (that should be a list of BayLISA 
events)

January 14 10am-5pm
Camp Sys Admin with Splunk
Location: Diablo Grande Wine Gallery
RSVP: http://www.splunk.com/index.php/camp

January 19 7:30-9:45pm
January BayLISA General Meeting
Location: Garage 1, Building 4, 4 Infinite Loop Cupertino, CA 95014
Enterprise Grade Virtualization with Open Source Technologies, NetBSD 3.0, 
and FreeBSD Kernel
http://www.mollyguard.com/event/23223462
Meeting sponsored by XenSource

January 26 7:30-9:45pm
BayLISA Special Event!
Location: Building 43, Google Campus (Directions to be posted to the 
website soon)
Google System Administration, and Open Source at 20, A new game with New 
players
RSVP required (speeds up the badging process!)
http://www.mollyguard.com/event/23334795
Meeting sponsored by Google

February 16 7:30-9:45pm
February BayLISA General Meeting
Location: Garage 1, Building 4, 4 Infinite Loop Cupertino, CA 95014
Mirapoint, Network/Application Troubleshooting methodology with case 
studies and a focus on VOIP
Pizza/Beer Bash after the meeting sponsored by Mirapoint (RSVP will be 
available soon!)

Feburary 18 10am-5pm
BayLISA Special Event!
Location: Yahoo! campus, Sunnyvale, CA
Security Tools of the Trade seminar
RSVP required!
http://www.mollyguard.com/event/23147234
This event is almost full.
Event Sponsored by Yahoo!

February 23 7:30-9:45pm
BayLISA Special Event!
Location: TBA
Time Management - Tom Limoncelli
RSVP to be posted soon.




From jxh at jxh.com  Mon Jan  9 15:51:52 2006
From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein)
Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 17:51:52 -0600
Subject: DLT/LTO carts in south bay?
Message-ID: <43C2F718.6020301@jxh.com>

Does anyone know of a stocking distributor (ideally a discounter) of 
LTO-1 cleaning carts, and while we're at it, LTO-1 and DLT-IV data 
carts, that's within reach of the south bay and might be open today?

Anyone want to sell me a partly-used but trustworthy LTO-1 cleaning 
cart, cheap?  This afternoon?  Will pick up!

+1 651 690 2977

Yes, I'm in Minnesota, but the need is in Sunnyvale.  (I have ways....)


From hpaul at hammann.com  Tue Jan 10 10:23:06 2006
From: hpaul at hammann.com (H. Paul Hammann)
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 10:23:06 -0800
Subject: rack-n-shelfs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1060105020012.22015A-100000@Maggie.Linux-Consulting.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1060105020012.22015A-100000@Maggie.Linux-Consulting.com>
Message-ID: <43C3FB8A.4010606@hammann.com>

I have been very satisfied with the custom racks we've ordered from 
Electrorack.
<http://www.electrorack.com/>

Paul

Alvin Oga wrote:
> hi ya
>
> - does anybody have a favorite vendor for shelfs for 4-post racks
>   ( 29" deep chatsworth 4-post racks, with square holes :-0 )
>
> 	- i prefer custom metal, but for sanity's sake,
> 	i wanna see what other folks do locally :-)
>
> 	- local vendors is preferred over online webstores
>
> - they already bought 11x 4-post racks but no shelfs and
>   no cable management yet :-)
>
> 	- their idea of (re)using the 2-post telco rack 
> 	shelf doesn't work :-)
>
> 	- their idea of (re)using the dell 2-post sliding rails
> 	to be used in the 4-post racks wont work either :-)
> 	and those puppies runs say $150/$200 a set vs a 
> 	$20 custom metal rack shelf :-)
>
> - moving ( corp network infrastructure ) is fun isn't it :-)
> 	- it'd be fun to move and carry 12x 50lb tripplite ups
>
> thanx
> alvin
>
> btw.. for those that wanted the CRTs .. i'm still waiting
>       for the ceo's to say take away the old crts and pc
> 	( the current get-out-of-the-office-space is set for mid jan )
>
>
>
>
>
>   


From sigje at sigje.org  Wed Jan 11 16:46:56 2006
From: sigje at sigje.org (Jennifer Davis)
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 16:46:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: BayLISA General Meeting - January 19, 2006
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.60.0511091101410.9329@slick.sigje.org>
References: <Pine.NEB.4.60.0505111310570.25667@slick.sigje.org>
 <Pine.NEB.4.60.0508271208430.6387@slick.sigje.org>
 <Pine.NEB.4.60.0510211804100.23909@slick.sigje.org>
 <Pine.NEB.4.60.0510272342220.8137@slick.sigje.org>
 <Pine.NEB.4.60.0511091101410.9329@slick.sigje.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601111646190.787@slick.sigje.org>


Join us for the first BayLISA meeting of the year!

When: January 19, 2006 7:30-9:45pm
Location: Garage 1, Apple Campus, 4 Infinite Loop Cupertino CA 95014
Topic: Enterprise Grade Virtualization with Open Source Technologies
        Sean Perry, and Brian Lavender - XenSource

Topic: NetBSD 3 for System Administrators: an Overview
        Jeff Rizzo, NetBSD Developer

RSVP NOW: http://www.mollyguard.com/event/23223462
Directions:
http://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?addr=4%20Infinite%20Loop&csz=Cupertino,+CA+9501
4&country=us

For complete abstracts, view the RSVP description.

The January general meeting is sponsored by XenSource.  Come join us for 
pizza,
beverages, and quality talk about virtualization, and the just released 
NetBSD
3.0.




From sigje at sigje.org  Wed Jan 11 16:45:30 2006
From: sigje at sigje.org (Jennifer Davis)
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 16:45:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: BayLISA General Meeting - January 19, 2006
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601111640450.787@slick.sigje.org>


Join us for the first BayLISA meeting of the year!

When: January 19, 2006 7:30-9:45pm
Location: Garage 1, Apple Campus, 4 Infinite Loop Cupertino CA 95014
Topic: Enterprise Grade Virtualization with Open Source Technologies
        Sean Perry, and Brian Lavender - XenSource

Topic: NetBSD 3 for System Administrators: an Overview
        Jeff Rizzo, NetBSD Developer

RSVP NOW: http://www.mollyguard.com/event/23223462
Directions: 
http://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?addr=4%20Infinite%20Loop&csz=Cupertino,+CA+95014&country=us

For complete abstracts, view the RSVP description.

The January general meeting is sponsored by XenSource.  Come join us for 
pizza, beverages, and quality talk about virtualization, and the just 
released NetBSD 3.0.




Jennifer


From sigje at sigje.org  Wed Jan 11 16:50:34 2006
From: sigje at sigje.org (Jennifer Davis)
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 16:50:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Apologies..
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601111649120.787@slick.sigje.org>


Many apologies for the duplicate message (I tend to try to announce items 
to BayLISA before announcing them anywhere else, and I didn't catch that I 
had cc-ed baylisa@ on the second set until I had sent).

Jennifer



From sigje at sigje.org  Thu Jan 12 12:44:55 2006
From: sigje at sigje.org (Jennifer Davis)
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 12:44:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Enterprise Servers and Data Centers: Opportunities for Energy Savings
 Conference
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601121241090.10702@slick.sigje.org>


For those people who have to worry about power this might be of interest:


http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=products.pr_esads_conf

Sun Microsystems Conference Facility, Santa Clara, CA
January 31, 2006, 8:30 a.m. . 5:30 p.m.
Welcome Reception: January 30, 2006, 6:00 . 8:00 p.m.

You're invited to participate in a working session entitled "Conference on 
Enterprise Servers and Data Centers: Opportunities for Energy Savings." 
Participants will discuss current trends in the enterprise server market 
and obstacles to improved data center energy efficiency, and develop 
action plans to overcome these obstacles.
Conference Goals:

To bring together national and international stakeholders to:

     * Highlight the growing energy demands of today's high-density 
enterprise servers and data center facilities,
     * Share ideas on management, technical strategies, and best practices 
for addressing energy consumption in data center facilities, and
     * Collaboratively draft action plans for improving data center 
efficiencies.

Conference Chairperson

Jonathan G. Koomey, Ph.D . Consulting Professor, Department of Civil and 
Environmental Engineering, Stanford Institute for the Environment and 
Staff Scientist with Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
Agendas
Day 1, January 31st: Enterprise Servers and Data Centers: Opportunities 
for Energy Savings Sun Microsystems Conference Facility, Santa Clara, CA

Industry leaders and energy efficiency experts will open this meeting by 
discussing trends and challenges in the marketplace. A panel of end users 
will next emphasize their desire for improved efficiencies in data 
centers. The second half of the day promises to identify roadblocks to 
efficiency and drive the group toward solutions with the help of poignant 
case studies and small group working sessions.
Day 2, February 1st: Challenges in Buildings Operations and Management for 
Owners/Operators of Service Provider and Enterprise Datacenters and 
Development of the ENERGY STAR Building Benchmark for Mission Critical 
Facilities AMD Conference Facility, Sunnyvale, CA

Stakeholders with interests in whole building energy performance are also 
encouraged to attend a complementary half-day meeting being held the 
following day, February 1, 2006, that will focus exclusively on the impact 
of enterprise servers and data centers on the design, operation, and 
management of whole buildings.


From gford at idiom.com  Fri Jan 13 18:28:58 2006
From: gford at idiom.com (Glen Ford)
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 18:28:58 -0800
Subject: Anyone know of Thinkpad repair place in bay area
In-Reply-To: <20051104205638.GA23854@panix.com>
References: <436BBFB3.40703@idiom.com> <20051104205638.GA23854@panix.com>
Message-ID: <43C861EA.6090107@idiom.com>

John Clear wrote:

>On Fri, Nov 04, 2005 at 12:08:19PM -0800, Glen Ford wrote:
>  
>
>>I have Thinkpad T21 with non-functioning lcd.
>>Would love to get lcd fixed.
>>Can anyone on this list recommend a local repair place?
>>    
>>
>
>We use A&A Computers in Santa Clara for alot of IBM laptop warranty
>and non-warranty work.  No idea about $$$, but they are fast and
>responsive.
>
>http://www.anacomputers.com/contactus.asp
>
>John
>
>
>
>  
>
Thanks to John and Nadine for suggesting A&A.
Finally got around to taking my T21 to A&A.
They fixed the LCD cable and I had my T21 back in 1 day's time
cost $89 for part + $75 labor, well below the cost of replacing the T21.
So thank you.
/glen



From jimd at starshine.org  Fri Jan 13 19:17:00 2006
From: jimd at starshine.org (Jim Dennis)
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 19:17:00 -0800
Subject: DNS Abuse?
Message-ID: <20060114031700.GA14718@starshine.org>



 All,

 I've been seeing a couple of oddities on my little IDSL home network
 in the last few days and I'm wondering if they represent some creative
 new form of DNS abuse.

 The short form is that I'll see increasing network lag and find that
 two hosts out on the net are sending a number of DNS requests per
 second asking about e.tn.co.za.

 This continues across both my nameserver IP addresses (which are
 actually currently both IP aliases to one Debian/UltraSPARC system 
 [slaps own wrist for being a bad admin and mutters about how 
 cobbler's children are shod]). THis goes on for hours at a time --- 
 and seems to slowly increase in bandwidth load over time.

 The first of these that I noticed involved two hosts:

    mail.samurai.fm (apparently the mail server for some Japanese
        Internet radio station)
    server2.unitedservers.de (apparently a German virtual hosting
        or colo service)

 At first I wasn't running any tools at all (haven't been needing them
 at home since my last workstation re-image).   So first I installed
 a copy of etherape; that's a GUI that shows a star graphic of where
 traffic is coming and going in one window (hosts are points on a ring
 around the edges, and traffic appears as lines crossing the middle,
 colors differentiate top protocols, and thickness for relative
 bandwidth utilization; another window shows a table of traffic types
 and counts, updated in real-time, like a little tachometer, and lets
 me sort them by various criteria).

 It was obvious that I was getting hammered with DNS requests and
 UDP fragments.  (sustained loads of ~270Kbps UDP fragments, and 
 ~170Kbps in DNS traffic on an IDSL line that's nominally only
 144Kbps --- perhaps the tool's metrics are off, but my pipe was
 definitely full).

 So I shutdown my DNS server.  All the UDP fragments disappeared,
 and the DNS dropped to around 15Kbps --- and there now appeared
 about 10Kbps of ICMP traffic (port unreachable, of course).

 So this represented the incoming DNS; but there were some port
 scan and other traffic (normal background radiation these days)
 that were preventing me from isolating the perpetrators.  Also
 this didn't look like an effective attack (various host integrity
 tests on the UltraSPARC and a couple of other systems around the
 house were all clean, including the latest chkrootkit and rkhunter
 versions from Debian).

 Anyway, I installed snort and nstreams and started capturing
 some information for analysis.  Then I spotted the two machines
 that had been there for a long time (after the alleged nameserver
 in Russia finished scanning me).

 I restarted my named and watch while the ICMP traffic immediately
 disappeard (as one would expect) and the DNS draffic immediately
 doubled.  Then over the course of an hour or so it slowly climbed
 to ~50-60Kbps.

 So now I just did: iptables -A -s $BADHOST -j DROP for each of
 the two culprits; did traceroutes on them and sent mail to the abuse@,
 support@, kontakt@ (for the one that listed a contact at their
 website), hostmaster and postmaster@ for both domains and for their
 next hop transit providers (and copied my ISP's support@ as an FYI).

 The incoming DNS traffic persisted for a couple hours at the 15Kbps
 level.  (Though, it was no longer costing me any return traffic ---
 'cause DROP means don't even send them ICMP) :)

 I also spent time Googling and talking over IRC (freenode, in the 
 #snort channel) to see if I could identify this as any sort of known
 attack.  Basically I'd like to put a name to it and/or figure out
 what these bozos are up to.  I also reviewed my DNS configuration
 (I only would recursive lookups for "friends" --- an ACL that's
 defined to include my netblocks and those of the various people
 for him we provide secondary DNS service).  zone xfers are similarly
 locked down, of course.

 (I also actually did some work during this time --- now that my
 VPN connection was usable again).

 Then off to bed.

 Today (after my dentist's appointment --- temporary crown for the one
 rear molar --- the gold crown will be ready in two weeks) I noticed
 a new pair of culprits.  I left my etherape main graphic window up
 on a virtual desktop of my laptop and I've been using it as a sort
 of screen saver. It's kinda cool and isn't costing enough
 performance to bother me; even on this old 500Mhz/256MB laptop

 Our new "guests" are:

     h-68-166-138-83.nycmny83.covad.net  68.166.138.83

 and:

    c-24-60-193-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net 24.60.193.83 

 This was similar to the previous pair in that it was taking up
 ~15Kbps of DNS traffic.  I suspect the other event started like
 this and slowly continued until it got bad enough for me to see it.

 This time I immediately started a capture process with:

    tcpdump -n -v -v -v -w /tmp/wtf.tcpdump host $A or host $B

 (after having set $A and $B with =$(dig +short ...) commands)

 I let that run for a couple thousand packets captured in a
 few minutes ... and left it running while I added a couple more
 packet filter rules.  After about five minutes or so the two
 disappeared.  So I've stopped the capture and done a few little
 cuts at the data to see what's there.

 That's when the e.tn.co.za. name popped out at me.  It's in every
 request from both of them.


 Summary:

 I don't have any hard conclusions.  I don't know what they're doing,
 but I'm sure it's bad.  The fact that they appear two at a time make
 me wonder if someone is somehow tricking my BIND9 named into being
 a reflector of some sort --- like two people behind firewalls using
 my DNS as some sort of relay?  However, a statistic sample of two
 events and four hosts isn't compelling.  I could see that someone
 could be somehow preloading my DNS cache with one request and then
 another could be testing whether my cache was warm to that request
 (something like what Dan Kaminsky has talked about at LISA?)

 If they were making various DIFFERENT requests especially for MX
 records I'd suspet they might be spam cannon zombies that were trying
 to obscure their DNS footprints in some way; but 1100 queries for
 e.tn.co.za doesn't sound like it'd be useful for e-mail spam.

 I haven't gathered more raw data from these yet and I'm near the
 edge of my technical expertise at this point.  So I'd have to invest
 alot more time to delve into this further (time which I really don't
 have right now).

 So, I put the question to the community:

    What the heck are these?  Are there any good tools (snort rules
    etc) to detect them and automatically respond to them?  
    
    (Naturally I don't want my dynamically generated packet filter 
    rules to accumulate and block legitimate, innocent, dynamic IP 
    addresses indefinitely.  The rules I've put in here will be there 
    for a couple days then I'll flush them).

-- 
Jim Dennis


From michael at halligan.org  Mon Jan 16 01:46:27 2006
From: michael at halligan.org (Michael T. Halligan)
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 01:46:27 -0800
Subject: Linux Tape Device Emulation?
Message-ID: <BF4DBBC9-9F5A-4FE4-BABC-7D392EFC522C@halligan.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Are there any good solutions for tape device emulation? Ideally, I'd  
like to emulate a raid 1 volume as an RMT to my mail server.
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tGL7YWRdhB1mJgE2zbELMvY=
=b+sF
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From alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com  Mon Jan 16 10:28:29 2006
From: alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com (Alvin Oga)
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 10:28:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Linux Tape Device Emulation?
In-Reply-To: <BF4DBBC9-9F5A-4FE4-BABC-7D392EFC522C@halligan.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1060116102500.9508B-100000@Maggie.Linux-Consulting.com>



hi ya michael

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006, Michael T. Halligan wrote:

> Are there any good solutions for tape device emulation? Ideally, I'd  
> like to emulate a raid 1 volume as an RMT to my mail server.

what part of "tape device emulation" are you looking for ??

"disks" can do some of the work but:

- tar can talk to tapes or disks for debugging some of the "tape sw"
- disks can do raid1 

- eject and mt won't work on disks :-)

- /dev/st* /dev/nst* is a different set of problems

c ya
alvin




From michael at halligan.org  Mon Jan 16 14:26:46 2006
From: michael at halligan.org (Michael T. Halligan)
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 14:26:46 -0800
Subject: Linux Tape Device Emulation?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1060116102500.9508B-100000@Maggie.Linux-Consulting.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1060116102500.9508B-100000@Maggie.Linux-Consulting.com>
Message-ID: <27F1A1D5-801E-4B4D-84F2-54E194C3FE2C@halligan.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Alvin,

Specifically, what I'm looking for, is a method to interface a  
volume, or block device, as a tape, so that I can
then have remote devices read/write to that volume as a RMT (remote  
magnetic tape) device.  I have a mail
system that only supports local tape, RMT or NDMP for backups... NDMP  
is way out of my budget right now (lowest cost
software I've found that does ndmp reliably is almost as much as the  
mail system cost.. about $20k), and I'd rather
not buy a tape drive right now, if I could avoid it.



On Jan 16, 2006, at 10:28 AM, Alvin Oga wrote:

>
> what part of "tape device emulation" are you looking for ??
>
> "disks" can do some of the work but:
>
> - tar can talk to tapes or disks for debugging some of the "tape sw"
> - disks can do raid1
>
> - eject and mt won't work on disks :-)
>

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6eCLaJ6eT0WLKhGPTtDW67E=
=+Zr2
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From jxh at jxh.com  Mon Jan 16 14:56:24 2006
From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein)
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 16:56:24 -0600
Subject: Linux Tape Device Emulation?
In-Reply-To: <27F1A1D5-801E-4B4D-84F2-54E194C3FE2C@halligan.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1060116102500.9508B-100000@Maggie.Linux-Consulting.com> <27F1A1D5-801E-4B4D-84F2-54E194C3FE2C@halligan.org>
Message-ID: <43CC2498.3010104@jxh.com>

> Specifically, what I'm looking for, is a method to interface a volume, 
> or block device, as a tape, so that I can
> then have remote devices read/write to that volume as a RMT (remote 
> magnetic tape) device.  I have a mail
> system that only supports local tape, RMT or NDMP for backups... NDMP is 
> way out of my budget right now (lowest cost
> software I've found that does ndmp reliably is almost as much as the 
> mail system cost.. about $20k), and I'd rather
> not buy a tape drive right now, if I could avoid it.

Sounds familiar.  I bought a tape drive, but used, and for cheap. 
(LTO-1 is at the right point on the price curve, and holds all I need on 
a single volume -- for now.)  RMT also works for me, but use large 
blocksize writes to keep things moving.

If there is any more money (which there might not be), talk to my friend 
Rex Walters at www.datadomain.com.  Their product addresses this, in 
general.  It's a box of disks, but does very good compression based on 
the assumption of sequential access, and dumps not being entirely novel 
from one day to the next.


From michael at halligan.org  Mon Jan 16 16:03:24 2006
From: michael at halligan.org (Michael T. Halligan)
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 16:03:24 -0800
Subject: Linux Tape Device Emulation?
In-Reply-To: <43CC2498.3010104@jxh.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1060116102500.9508B-100000@Maggie.Linux-Consulting.com> <27F1A1D5-801E-4B4D-84F2-54E194C3FE2C@halligan.org> <43CC2498.3010104@jxh.com>
Message-ID: <81860DAA-70B9-4A0D-94E5-158F9E85F734@halligan.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Jim,

Oddly enough, we have the same exact solution from what I've heard,  
the Mirapoint! Small world.

I'm always a bit hesitant to purchase used gear, especially when it  
comes to tapes (given the moving parts). Ideally,
I'd just hook an lto-3 onto it, and take advantage of the speed  
(576gb/hour), which meant if I was at full capacity (100gb)
a full backup or restore should be around 20 minutes, which has it's  
appeal.. and around a $7k pricetag (for which I
could build two very redundant file servers as dedicated backup  
servers, and have enough $$ to take my wife out to
dinner at French Laundry).

On the other hand.. lto-1 drives have the capacity I need, and a good  
pricepoint .. around $1k it seems.  What do the datadomain
boxes look like pricewise?


Michael T. Halligan
- -------------------------------------
BitPusher, LLC
http://www.bitpusher.com/



On Jan 16, 2006, at 2:56 PM, Jim Hickstein wrote:

>> Specifically, what I'm looking for, is a method to interface a  
>> volume, or block device, as a tape, so that I can
>> then have remote devices read/write to that volume as a RMT  
>> (remote magnetic tape) device.  I have a mail
>> system that only supports local tape, RMT or NDMP for backups...  
>> NDMP is way out of my budget right now (lowest cost
>> software I've found that does ndmp reliably is almost as much as  
>> the mail system cost.. about $20k), and I'd rather
>> not buy a tape drive right now, if I could avoid it.
>
> Sounds familiar.  I bought a tape drive, but used, and for cheap.  
> (LTO-1 is at the right point on the price curve, and holds all I  
> need on a single volume -- for now.)  RMT also works for me, but  
> use large blocksize writes to keep things moving.
>
> If there is any more money (which there might not be), talk to my  
> friend Rex Walters at www.datadomain.com.  Their product addresses  
> this, in general.  It's a box of disks, but does very good  
> compression based on the assumption of sequential access, and dumps  
> not being entirely novel from one day to the next.

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Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin)

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From jxh at jxh.com  Mon Jan 16 16:51:43 2006
From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein)
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 18:51:43 -0600
Subject: Linux Tape Device Emulation?
In-Reply-To: <81860DAA-70B9-4A0D-94E5-158F9E85F734@halligan.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1060116102500.9508B-100000@Maggie.Linux-Consulting.com> <27F1A1D5-801E-4B4D-84F2-54E194C3FE2C@halligan.org> <43CC2498.3010104@jxh.com> <81860DAA-70B9-4A0D-94E5-158F9E85F734@halligan.org>
Message-ID: <43CC3F9F.9050609@jxh.com>

> Oddly enough, we have the same exact solution from what I've heard, the 
> Mirapoint! Small world.

:-)  Disclosure: I work for Mirapoint.  But I run my box in production 
just like anyone else: www.imap-partners.net.

> I'm always a bit hesitant to purchase used gear, especially when it 
> comes to tapes (given the moving parts). Ideally,
> I'd just hook an lto-3 onto it, and take advantage of the speed 
> (576gb/hour), which meant if I was at full capacity (100gb)
> a full backup or restore should be around 20 minutes, which has it's 
> appeal.. and around a $7k pricetag (for which I
> could build two very redundant file servers as dedicated backup servers, 
> and have enough $$ to take my wife out to
> dinner at French Laundry).

*ahem* Tape speed isn't the primary constraint.  LTO-1s are going for 
$500 on eBay; I got a couple from a local fellow for less.  Buy two 
(more if you want to clone tapes and still keep a spare). Spend your 
money on a _new_ cleaning cart and some _new_ tapes.  They're at the 
sweet spot on the price curve, too, lately.

But here's something for nothing: Your Mirapoint box will offline the 
local tape after every operation -- can't be made not to -- and LTO's 
(unlike DLT-7000, at least) need human intervention to re-load and read 
again for a restore.  (A DLT-7000 just turns off the "operate handle" 
light and carries on.  The LTO you have to stuff back into the slot. 
Maybe that's not a problem for you.  My 80GB M300 won't fit on a 
DLT-7000 tape any more.  It's 35/"70", note quotes.)  Via RMT, you can 
point it at the no-rewind device and otherwise have appropriate control 
over this.

I measured speed writing to a local DLT-7000 from my M300.  About 4h for 
30GB doing 'backup full tape ""' (the default, and fixed, blocksize). 
Use RMT with the default blocksize ("") via a private 100Base-T network 
to a FreeBSD 4.6 box with the same drive on a wide SCSI bus, and you're 
looking at 24h for the same dump.  Crank up the blocksize argument there 
to 2MB and it's back in the range you expect.  (_That_ was a long 
weekend in the lab.)

This is the file-by-file dump, and opening files is expensive, so you 
won't saturate a tape drive, or even 100Base-T necessarily.  I'm happy 
keeping it streaming.  Via NDMP it can do image dumps and get around 
this, but yes the DMA is in another league.  For now.

> On the other hand.. lto-1 drives have the capacity I need, and a good 
> pricepoint .. around $1k it seems.  What do the datadomain
> boxes look like pricewise?

No idea.  But I used to work for Rex when he was at Mirapoint (he's the 
King of the SEs at DataDomain now), and I happen to have chatted with 
him the other day.  Sounds very interesting, but I'm old-school: I like 
my dumps removable.  Bearings die; heads crash.  Yes, tape drives have a 
lot of moving parts and they're objectively less reliable than disk 
drives.  But _a given tape_ isn't so bad.  And I can afford to be 
careful: I test my backups routinely.  If it wouldn't wear out my co-lo 
guys, I'd send two copies offsite every Monday, to two different 
tectonic plates.


From michael at halligan.org  Mon Jan 16 21:46:17 2006
From: michael at halligan.org (Michael T. Halligan)
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 21:46:17 -0800
Subject: Linux Tape Device Emulation?
In-Reply-To: <43CC3F9F.9050609@jxh.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1060116102500.9508B-100000@Maggie.Linux-Consulting.com> <27F1A1D5-801E-4B4D-84F2-54E194C3FE2C@halligan.org> <43CC2498.3010104@jxh.com> <81860DAA-70B9-4A0D-94E5-158F9E85F734@halligan.org> <43CC3F9F.9050609@jxh.com>
Message-ID: <7E0E8150-68BA-4600-ABF3-7AEE5EC4A455@halligan.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Jan 16, 2006, at 4:51 PM, Jim Hickstein wrote:

>> Oddly enough, we have the same exact solution from what I've  
>> heard, the Mirapoint! Small world.
>
> :-)  Disclosure: I work for Mirapoint.  But I run my box in  
> production just like anyone else: www.imap-partners.net.

Both facts were known to me, it's a small world we live in :)

>
>> I'm always a bit hesitant to purchase used gear, especially when  
>> it comes to tapes (given the moving parts). Ideally,
>> I'd just hook an lto-3 onto it, and take advantage of the speed  
>> (576gb/hour), which meant if I was at full capacity (100gb)
>> a full backup or restore should be around 20 minutes, which has  
>> it's appeal.. and around a $7k pricetag (for which I
>> could build two very redundant file servers as dedicated backup  
>> servers, and have enough $$ to take my wife out to
>> dinner at French Laundry).
>
> *ahem* Tape speed isn't the primary constraint.  LTO-1s are going  
> for $500 on eBay; I got a couple from a local fellow for less.  Buy  
> two (more if you want to clone tapes and still keep a spare). Spend  
> your money on a _new_ cleaning cart and some _new_ tapes.  They're  
> at the sweet spot on the price curve, too, lately.

The pricing is pretty attractive. I'd like to keep this under $2k for  
the next 3-4 months (realistically, I don't see us growing by more  
than about 500MB per month in the foreseeable future).


> But here's something for nothing: Your Mirapoint box will offline  
> the local tape after every operation -- can't be made not to -- and  
> LTO's (unlike DLT-7000, at least) need human intervention to re- 
> load and read again for a restore.  (A DLT-7000 just turns off the  
> "operate handle" light and carries on.  The LTO you have to stuff  
> back into the slot. Maybe that's not a problem for you.  My 80GB  
> M300 won't fit on a DLT-7000 tape any more.  It's 35/"70", note  
> quotes.)  Via RMT, you can point it at the no-rewind device and  
> otherwise have appropriate control over this.

Annoying, but at least I can get around that by scheduling a tape  
rotation once or twice daily from the noc staff at my colo provider..  
Though, if RMT performs just as well as local tape, then I might as  
well just attach to my backup server, then.

> I measured speed writing to a local DLT-7000 from my M300.  About  
> 4h for 30GB doing 'backup full tape ""' (the default, and fixed,  
> blocksize). Use RMT with the default blocksize ("") via a private  
> 100Base-T network to a FreeBSD 4.6 box with the same drive on a  
> wide SCSI bus, and you're looking at 24h for the same dump.  Crank  
> up the blocksize argument there to 2MB and it's back in the range  
> you expect.  (_That_ was a long weekend in the lab.)
>
> This is the file-by-file dump, and opening files is expensive, so  
> you won't saturate a tape drive, or even 100Base-T necessarily.   
> I'm happy keeping it streaming.  Via NDMP it can do image dumps and  
> get around this, but yes the DMA is in another league.  For now.

Is the speed on an LTO-1 comparable to the dlt-7000, 4 hours for 30GB  
worth of data? This seems really slow.  We have the M450 so perhaps  
the speed has improved somewhat?


>> On the other hand.. lto-1 drives have the capacity I need, and a  
>> good pricepoint .. around $1k it seems.  What do the datadomain
>> boxes look like pricewise?
>
> No idea.  But I used to work for Rex when he was at Mirapoint (he's  
> the King of the SEs at DataDomain now), and I happen to have  
> chatted with him the other day.  Sounds very interesting, but I'm  
> old-school: I like my dumps removable.  Bearings die; heads crash.   
> Yes, tape drives have a lot of moving parts and they're objectively  
> less reliable than disk drives.  But _a given tape_ isn't so bad.   
> And I can afford to be careful: I test my backups routinely.  If it  
> wouldn't wear out my co-lo guys, I'd send two copies offsite every  
> Monday, to two different tectonic plates.

Virtual Tape libraries are appealing. I'm thinking, however, that the  
price point is bound to be just as prohibitive as a higher end backup  
solution that supports NDMP like Veritas, or Legato currently is.  As  
is, this is the only device in our infrastructure with any strict  
need for tapes, so it would be hard to justify. This is one of the  
places where tape is very disappointing as a backup solution to me.  
I'd much rather copy the data to a file server, then just copy the  
deltas (or full images) over the wan to our other datacenters for off- 
sight every night.





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From jxh at jxh.com  Tue Jan 17 07:15:40 2006
From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein)
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 09:15:40 -0600
Subject: Linux Tape Device Emulation?
In-Reply-To: <7E0E8150-68BA-4600-ABF3-7AEE5EC4A455@halligan.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1060116102500.9508B-100000@Maggie.Linux-Consulting.com> <27F1A1D5-801E-4B4D-84F2-54E194C3FE2C@halligan.org> <43CC2498.3010104@jxh.com> <81860DAA-70B9-4A0D-94E5-158F9E85F734@halligan.org> <43CC3F9F.9050609@jxh.com> <7E0E8150-68BA-4600-ABF3-7AEE5EC4A455@halligan.org>
Message-ID: <43CD0A1C.5050406@jxh.com>

> Annoying, but at least I can get around that by scheduling a tape 
> rotation once or twice daily from the noc staff at my colo provider.. 
> Though, if RMT performs just as well as local tape, then I might as well 
> just attach to my backup server, then.

RMT with an adequate blocksize is in the same ballpark, but local tape 
is going to give you the best speed.  If you have remote hands who can 
touch tapes every day, I'd stick with local tape.

> Is the speed on an LTO-1 comparable to the dlt-7000, 4 hours for 30GB 
> worth of data? This seems really slow.  We have the M450 so perhaps the 
> speed has improved somewhat?

I think it's probably comparable.  I don't have an M450 to try, and 
didn't have an LTO-1 until recently.  It's still expensive to open 
files, though, so I wouldn't look for a lot more than this.  Give it a try.

> Virtual Tape libraries are appealing. I'm thinking, however, that the 
> price point is bound to be just as prohibitive as a higher end backup 
> solution that supports NDMP like Veritas, or Legato currently is.

I also have a physical tape library (28-slot DLT-4000 thing), and after 
playing with it came to the conclusion that the big bucks you spend on 
Veritas are mostly about managing such a thing: talking to it, knowing 
what is on which tape, etc.  I have so far avoided needing it, but it's 
next in line.

> rather copy the data to a file server, then just copy the deltas (or 
> full images) over the wan to our other datacenters for off-sight every 
> night.

The WAN copy angle is where Data Domain looks good, btw, since it 
compresses first and only copies deltas.  If you pay for bandwidth, this 
can open up some options that aren't otherwise economically feasible.


From alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com  Tue Jan 17 13:17:29 2006
From: alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com (Alvin Oga)
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 13:17:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: old crts/parts/systems
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1060107020551.30523C-100000@Maggie.Linux-Consulting.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1060117131107.17731A-100000@Maggie.Linux-Consulting.com>


hi ya 

- for those that wanted some CRTs ...

	- i have one more batch of parts/systems/monitors to collect
	as soon as it's declared "throw away" by the clients, and i'm
	expecting to haul it away this week to my office

- there's also a 1TB Dell powervault that is being tossed to be
  sold on ebay or ?? to the highest bidders

- what i'm hoping to do is to repackage some of these old systems
  ( p3-1G or slower or faster ) into a custom 1U or 1.5U or 2U 
  rackmount chassis 

	- if the costs of the chassis is covered ... i'm happy and the
	machines will hopefully have a new home for another few years

- i'll know more about the hardware list later

c ya
alvin




From sigje at sigje.org  Tue Jan 17 15:18:49 2006
From: sigje at sigje.org (Jennifer Davis)
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 15:18:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: January BayLISA Events - Register now!
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601171514200.24559@slick.sigje.org>


2 meetings, 4 great talks this month!  Thursday is Enterprise Grade 
Virtualization with Open Source Technologies, and NetBSD 3.0 for System 
Administrators at the Apple Campus.  Next Thursday is Google Site 
Reliability and Open Source @ 20 at Google.  Details following. PLEASE 
RSVP.  For the Google event, it's especially important as it will make it 
much easier to get in (you will be pre-signed in rather than having to 
sign up at the door).


January 19, 2005
Location: Garage 1, upstairs room in Building 4 on Apple Campus. 4 
Infinite Loop, Cupertino, California 95014
Time: 7:30-9:45pm
Enterprise Grade Virtualization with Open Source Technologies
RSVP: http://www.mollyguard.com/event/23223462

Virtualization is a new and hot item to the world of Linux and Windows. 
There have been, however, virtualization technologies for over 40 years, 
starting with the IBM emulators for mainframes, and later with the CP67 
and VM virtualizing operating systems. Open Source operating systems like 
Linux offer the potential to make virtualization fast, easy and a 
commodity by introducing the required changes into the OS as part of the 
standard kernel. Fast virtualization with a low overhead, furthermore 
makes it possible for the first time to use it in production environments 
(rather than just test and development). Xen, the leading Open Source 
virtualization technology has quickly become a standard adopted by many 
leading ISVs to build comprehensive data center efficiency and management 
solutions. This presentation will provide an overview of Xen and discuss 
best practices for deploying it to achieve enterprise grade 
virtualization.

NetBSD 3 for System Administrators: an Overview

You may be familiar with NetBSD as an excellent platform for embedded
systems development, or as a highly portable OS which supports legacy
hardware ranging from the Sun 3 to the Alpha. But did you know
that NetBSD is a full-featured, modern OS that also works very well as
a general-purpose OS? See what NetBSD 3.0 has to offer
from a system administrator's perspective in this brief overview
designed to highlight some of NetBSD's distinctive features.

Meeting sponsored by XenSource



January 26, 2006 - BayLISA Special Event
Location: Building 43, Google Campus, Mountain View, CA
RSVP: http://www.mollyguard.com/event/23334795

Google Site Reliability
Google's reputation for high reliability is achieved through a
combination of commodity hardware, resilient software, and elbow
grease. We'll discuss some key principles underlying Google's
production architecture, and highlight some of the challenges of
keeping www.google.com available to its end users.

Open Source @20, A New Game with New Players - Bernard Golden, CEO Navica
Open Source @ 20: A New Game with New Players

Open Source has traditionally been the province of early adopters.
Today pragmatic IT organizations are beginning to implement open
source solutions. "Open Source @ 20: A New Game with New Players"
will discuss the expectations that pragmatists bring to the game, the
challenges open source presents to them, and describes the Open
Source Maturity Model as a tool to bridge the gap between
expectations and challenges.

Meeting sponsored by Google.


From sigje at sigje.org  Thu Jan 19 12:02:30 2006
From: sigje at sigje.org (Jennifer Davis)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:02:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: BayLISA - Tonight! XenSource, Virtualization and NetBSD 3.0
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601061533520.5125@slick.sigje.org>
References: <Pine.NEB.4.60.0505111310570.25667@slick.sigje.org>
 <Pine.NEB.4.60.0508271208430.6387@slick.sigje.org>
 <Pine.NEB.4.60.0510211804100.23909@slick.sigje.org>
 <Pine.NEB.4.63.0511171219160.1926@slick.sigje.org>
 <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601061533520.5125@slick.sigje.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601191152100.13829@slick.sigje.org>



Location: 4 Infinite Loop, Cupertino, California, Room Garage 1, on the 
2nd floor in building 4.
Time: 7:30pm
Date: TONIGHT
RSVP Requested: http://www.mollyguard.com/event/23223462
Meeting sponsored by XenSource.. come enjoy pizza, and soda!

~7:15 Pizza! 
7:30-7:45 Announcements, Job availability
7:45-8:15 NetBSD 3.0 for System Administrators: An Overview - Jeff Rizzo
8:20-9:45 Enterprise Grade Virtualization with Open Source Tecnologies - 
Sean Perry, Brian Lavender

Please be PROMPT!  The meeting will start at 7:30pm.



From holland at guidancetech.com  Thu Jan 19 16:12:01 2006
From: holland at guidancetech.com (Rich Holland)
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 19:12:01 -0500
Subject: Liability Insurance
Message-ID: <019401c61d56$24cb6420$6600a8c0@hackintosh>

I'm looking for a general liability policy for a potential contract which
requires a "waiver of subrogation" and that my client be named as an
additional insurred on the policy.  The only company I've found so far to
write the policy won't provide the waiver or include name my client in the
policy, and requires both "general" and "professional" liability together.
My understanding is that general liability will cover things like people
getting hurt on your property while professional liability is more like E&O
- it would cover me blowing up a customer's system and causing them lost
revenue, for example.

Since there are so many contractors reading Baylisa, I thought I'd ask.. Who
do you use for insurance, and do you know of anyone willing to write a
simple general liability policy without the E&O or professional bits (which
are much more expensive)?  My contract only stipulates the former.

Thanks!
Rich Holland




From michael at halligan.org  Fri Jan 20 12:32:44 2006
From: michael at halligan.org (Michael T. Halligan)
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 12:32:44 -0800
Subject: Liability Insurance
In-Reply-To: <019401c61d56$24cb6420$6600a8c0@hackintosh>
References: <019401c61d56$24cb6420$6600a8c0@hackintosh>
Message-ID: <0F9FFD68-A621-457E-B03A-EE465F2BFC14@halligan.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Rich,

I get my e&o, and general liabiity from this guy:

Harry Philipps
Paulson Insurance Agency
Out of Fremont
mirapoint mailbox copy
510-490-2545
harry at paulsonins.com

Tell him I sent you.


Michael T. Halligan



On Jan 19, 2006, at 4:12 PM, Rich Holland wrote:

> I'm looking for a general liability policy for a potential contract  
> which
> requires a "waiver of subrogation" and that my client be named as an
> additional insurred on the policy.  The only company I've found so  
> far to
> write the policy won't provide the waiver or include name my client  
> in the
> policy, and requires both "general" and "professional" liability  
> together.
> My understanding is that general liability will cover things like  
> people
> getting hurt on your property while professional liability is more  
> like E&O
> - it would cover me blowing up a customer's system and causing them  
> lost
> revenue, for example.
>
> Since there are so many contractors reading Baylisa, I thought I'd  
> ask.. Who
> do you use for insurance, and do you know of anyone willing to write a
> simple general liability policy without the E&O or professional  
> bits (which
> are much more expensive)?  My contract only stipulates the former.
>
> Thanks!
> Rich Holland
>
>

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From sigje at sigje.org  Fri Jan 20 13:43:12 2006
From: sigje at sigje.org (Jennifer Davis)
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 13:43:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Tools of the Trade Seminars
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601201334260.24876@slick.sigje.org>


Given a choice of Scripting for Sysadmins (perl and shell), Virtualization 
(Xen, VMWare, Sun, IBM,..), Network, SANS, NAS, what would you like the 
next seminar to tackle?  This is aiming for an April Saturday event.

Due to the popularity of the Security Seminar event, we have added a 
waiting list so that if there are any cancellations people will be 
contacted off the waiting list.

http://www.mollyguard.com/event/23147234

We will also give those people still on the waiting list first dibs on a 
future Security Seminar event.



Jennifer


From michael at halligan.org  Sat Jan 21 17:18:16 2006
From: michael at halligan.org (Michael T. Halligan)
Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 17:18:16 -0800
Subject: If anybody's interested in buying a truckload of used tech books..
Message-ID: <DD9663C7-A997-4A79-81A4-A825E325DB16@halligan.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

OK, not really a truck load, but I know they'll fill up the trunk of  
my beetle!  I'm trying to conserve space in my office, and
reduce my tech books to the bare necessity (What can't I find on  
Safari's Oreilly? What do I actually use at least once per month).

If anybody's interested, I can deliver within SF, or the peninsula on  
Monday.  The list of books, and the posting on craigslist is
here: http://www.craigslist.org/sfc/bks/127339900.html

Michael T. Halligan
- -------------------------------------
BitPusher, LLC
http://www.bitpusher.com/



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From bill at wards.net  Mon Jan 23 15:23:54 2006
From: bill at wards.net (Bill Ward)
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 15:23:54 -0800
Subject: PenLUG this Thursday, Jan. 26: DVD Authoring with Linux by Kyle Rankin (new location)
In-Reply-To: <3d2fe1780601231448vf838766k5dc6ada437988fb2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3d2fe1780601231448vf838766k5dc6ada437988fb2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3d2fe1780601231523v74cc0c6ch5a36263bbbca7481@mail.gmail.com>

Peninsula Linux Users' Group Meeting

Date:   Thursday, January 26th, 2006
Time:   7:00 - 9:00 PM
Location:       OpenCountry, 1301 Shoreway Rd Suite 211, Belmont, CA 94002

NOTE NEW LOCATION!!!  OpenCountry has graciously offered to not only
host our meetings but provide food as well!  See the Driving
Directions for details on how to get there:
http://www.penlug.org/twiki/bin/view/Home/DrivingDirectionsOpenCountry

Agenda:

7:00 - 8:30 PM:         Keynote presentation: Kyle Rankin, DVD
Authoring with Linux
8:30 - 9:00 PM:         Members' Minutes
9:00 PM:        Adjourn to IHOP for social & food time

Keynote presentation: Kyle Rankin, DVD Authoring with Linux

In this talk Kyle will demonstrate live how to create your own DVD
with menus from a sample video--all using Open Source software under
Linux.

Kyle Rankin is a system administrator for Quinstreet, Inc., the
current president of the North Bay Linux Users Group, and the author
of Knoppix Hacks, Knoppix Pocket Reference, and Linux Multimedia
Hacks. Kyle has been using Linux in one form or another since early
1998. In his free time he does pretty much the same thing he does at
work--works with Linux.

Members' Minutes

Members will have an opportunity to take a few minutes to...

    * Describe their latest Linux discovery
    * Ask questions and get help from other members
    * Discuss Linux projects

You can just stand up and talk, or give a short demo or presentation.
If you need audio/visual support for your Members' Minute, please
contact Bill in advance to arrange for your needs.

Free Stuff & Discounts

We will be having a door prize drawing to give away free stuff at the
meeting, which includes autographed copies of Kyle's books, other
books, and O'Reilly T-shirts. Plus all PenLUG members can receive a
30% off discount code from O'Reilly!

Free books are supplied by O'Reilly, Addison-Wesley/Prentice Hall,
and/or Apress (while supplies last). If you win one, please add your
book reviews to our LinuxBookReviews page.

If your company would like to contribute free or discount stuff to
give out at PenLUG meetings, please mail officers at penlug.org to let us
know.



From sigje at sigje.org  Mon Jan 23 16:19:13 2006
From: sigje at sigje.org (Jennifer Davis)
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 16:19:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: This Thursday: January 26, 2006 - BayLISA Special Event!
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601231609320.1725@slick.sigje.org>


RSVP Required!!  http://www.mollyguard.com/event/23334795
Date: January 26, 7:00-10pm
Location: Building 43, Google Campus, Mountain View, CA

Topic: Open Source @20, Bernard Golden
Topic: Google Site Reliability, Jay Sutaria

Many thanks to Google for hosting, and providing food to this event!  For 
more information about the presentations, check out the URL for the RSVP
http://www.mollyguard.com/event/23334795

Currently we have about 20 openings left for this event.  If you don't 
RSVP, you are going to run into delays when trying to get in.

Internet access WILL be available.

Jennifer


From sigje at sigje.org  Tue Jan 24 10:34:29 2006
From: sigje at sigje.org (Jennifer Davis)
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 10:34:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Discover "E" Program (Jan-25, Feb-1)Volunteer orientations (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601241033460.11391@slick.sigje.org>


For people interested in volunteering and helping guide young people 
towards the exciting field of system administration :)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 09:23:02 -0800
From: Elise Engelhardt <engelhardte at asme.org>
Reply-To: SVEvents at yahoogroups.com
To: SVEvents at yahoogroups.com, scv at swe.org, SWE-GGS at SWE.ORG,
     SiliconValleyEngineeringCouncilNews at yahoogroups.com,
     asmescvs at smartgroups.com, asme_sjsu at yahoogroups.com,
     ASME-SCU at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [SVEvents] Discover "E" Program (Jan-25, Feb-1)Volunteer orientations

Discover "E" (E for engineering) is a nationwide student outreach
program to expose elementary, junior and senior high school students to
engineering and cultivate their interest in math, science, and
engineering. This outreach program takes place annually in Silicon
Valley from the beginning of National Engineers Week until the end of
March. The Discover "E" program was initiated in 1990. Thousands of
engineers throughout the United States participate in the program every
year. The Discover "E" outreach effort in the South Bay area has been
coordinated by the Silicon Valley Engineering Council since 1992.

Although engineering is second only to teaching in the number of
professional practitioners, there is an astounding level of ignorance of
what it is that engineers do, even among children of engineers. The
engineers participating in the Discover "E" program help to address this
deficiency. They serve as role models and illustrate the importance of
education in math and science, not only for a career in engineering, but
simply as preparation for living in our increasingly complex world. This
program welcomes new volunteers to articipate in this outreach effort.
Even if you have never done anything like this before, you can take
advantage of orientation sessions and be provided with materials to take
with you into the classroom. For more information, contact David
Levinson at david.levinson at lmco.com or at (650) 424-2658.

The Lockheed Martin session is scheduled for Wed, Jan. 25, in the
Building 157 cafeteria in Sunnyvale, from 11:00 a.m. until 1:00 p.m.
You must contact Dave Licata (dave.licata at lmco.com) in advance to ensure
that you will be admitted through building security.

The IBM session is on February 1, from 2:30-4:00pm
The contact is Lynn Guest, lguest at us.ibm.com
Her phone number is 408-463-3076 on Monday, Tuesday and Thursday
408-256-3977 on Wednesday and Friday

The session being coordinated by SWE is also on Wed, Feb. 1,
from 6:30-8:00 pm.  It will be held at:   NVIDIA Corp. 2800 Scott Blvd.
Santa Clara  95050

While the first two sessions will primarily entail the distribution of
teacher requests, the SWE session will involve training of volunteers on
how to do outreach.  As a result, attendance for this is limited and
volunteers must contact(lucy_hsu at yahoo.com) in advance to ensure that
you will be admitted through building security.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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From sigje at sigje.org  Tue Jan 24 10:27:12 2006
From: sigje at sigje.org (Jennifer Davis)
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 10:27:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Upcoming ACCU event
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601241021540.11391@slick.sigje.org>


This isn't system administration focused, but I know that many people 
cross boundaries as to job functions..and so I'm passing this on as it may 
be of interest.  Heard of AJAX?  Well if you haven't, and you are 
interested in what the buzz is about, this will be a good intro to it.

When:      Wednesday, February 8, 2006
Topic:     An introduction to AJAX
Speaker:   Gregory Murray
Time:      7:00pm
Where:     eBay Town Hall (next to PayPal/eBay)
             2161 North First St
             San Jose, CA 95131
Map:       <http://tinyurl.com/cdg5u/>
Cost:      Free
More Info: <http://www.accu-usa.org>

AJAX is a technique for using JavaScript to communicate
asynchronously with a server-side component and dynamically
update the source of an HTML page based on the resulting
XML/Text response.

For those who want to read ahead for the talk, Greg
recommends his introductory AJAX article at
<http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/J2EE/AJAX/>

Gregory Murray is a lead engineer at SUN Microsystems.
He is currently the servlet specification lead.
Previously he was a member of the BluePrints team during
which he was responsible for the web tier recommendations.
He has experience with internationalization, web services,
J2SE standalone clients, and AJAX based web clients.
He is coauthor of Designing Enterprise Applications With
the Java 2 Platform, Enterprise Edition and Designing Web
Services With the J2EE 1.4 Platform (Addison-Wesley).

Greg is the author of the AJAX FAQ for the Java Developer.
His blog is at <http://weblogs.java.net/blog/gmurray71/>

The ACCU meets monthly. To suggest topics and speakers please
email Walter Vannini via walterv at gbbservices.com


From steve at luminareconsulting.com  Tue Jan 24 10:57:08 2006
From: steve at luminareconsulting.com (steve)
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 10:57:08 -0800
Subject: This Thursday: January 26, 2006 - BayLISA Special Event!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601231609320.1725@slick.sigje.org>
References: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601231609320.1725@slick.sigje.org>
Message-ID: <43D67884.8000505@luminareconsulting.com>


MollyGuard says the event is at 7:30.  Or is it 7?

So while i'm bringing up inconsistencies, whoever updates baylisa.org 
should change the year to 2006 :)


  Next BayLISA Meeting
  January 26, 2005


-steve

>
> RSVP Required!!  http://www.mollyguard.com/event/23334795
> Date: January 26, 7:00-10pm
> Location: Building 43, Google Campus, Mountain View, CA
>
> Topic: Open Source @20, Bernard Golden
> Topic: Google Site Reliability, Jay Sutaria
>
> Many thanks to Google for hosting, and providing food to this event!  
> For more information about the presentations, check out the URL for 
> the RSVP
> http://www.mollyguard.com/event/23334795
>
> Currently we have about 20 openings left for this event.  If you don't 
> RSVP, you are going to run into delays when trying to get in.
>
> Internet access WILL be available.
>
> Jennifer




From sigje at sigje.org  Tue Jan 24 11:08:50 2006
From: sigje at sigje.org (Jennifer Davis)
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 11:08:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: This Thursday: January 26, 2006 - BayLISA Special Event!
In-Reply-To: <43D67884.8000505@luminareconsulting.com>
References: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601231609320.1725@slick.sigje.org>
 <43D67884.8000505@luminareconsulting.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601241100010.11391@slick.sigje.org>

>
> MollyGuard says the event is at 7:30.  Or is it 7?

The meeting proper starts at 7:30pm.  Google opens the door at 7pm. 
Except they let me know yesterday that the doors open at 6:45pm so if you 
want to show up early, grab some food, socialize before the meeting, 
please do so.  The meeting will start on time though at 7:30pm..so be 
early rather than late :)

  >
> So while i'm bringing up inconsistencies, whoever updates baylisa.org should 
> change the year to 2006 :)

thanks for pointing that out :)  I've updated it.

Since I'm sending a message about this..

Address: 1600 Amphiteatre Pkwy Mountain View CA 94043
Tell the guards that you are there for the BayLISA event when you go to 
park.  They will direct you to the right building on the campus.. which is 
Building 43.  When you arrive, check in at the lobby in Building 43.  You 
will be directed to the Tunis room after receiving your badge.  Everyone 
who has signed up on mollyguard will have a pre-printed badge.  There are 
a few spaces left.  I will be sending directions to the signups 
individually as well on Thursday for any updates.

We actually will not have internet access on Thursday.  Only the 
speakers are being provided with access.  (Google clarified to me today).

Thanks!  I look forward to seeing those of you who can attend on Thursday! 
It should be a very interesting night.

Jennifer




From sandy at wambold.com  Tue Jan 24 12:11:20 2006
From: sandy at wambold.com (Sandy Wambold)
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 12:11:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: This Thursday: January 26, 2006 - BayLISA Special Event!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601241100010.11391@slick.sigje.org>
References: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601231609320.1725@slick.sigje.org>
 <43D67884.8000505@luminareconsulting.com> <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601241100010.11391@slick.sigje.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0601241210540.19235@wobble.localdomain>

I won't be able to make it, but since I'm a Google employee, I shouldn't be on
the badge list.

-sew


From sigje at sigje.org  Tue Jan 24 17:02:20 2006
From: sigje at sigje.org (Jennifer Davis)
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 17:02:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: BayLISA General Meeting - February 16, 2006
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601111646190.787@slick.sigje.org>
References: <Pine.NEB.4.60.0505111310570.25667@slick.sigje.org>
 <Pine.NEB.4.60.0508271208430.6387@slick.sigje.org>
 <Pine.NEB.4.60.0510211804100.23909@slick.sigje.org>
 <Pine.NEB.4.60.0510272342220.8137@slick.sigje.org>
 <Pine.NEB.4.60.0511091101410.9329@slick.sigje.org>
 <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601111646190.787@slick.sigje.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601241652510.12859@slick.sigje.org>


  Please join us for Pizza and Beer (soda or water if you don't drink
  alcohol :) after the meeting!  Pizza and Beer sponsored by Mirapoint.

  When: February 16, 2006, 7:30-9:45pm
  Location: Garage 1, Apple Campus, 4 Infinite Loop Cupertino CA 95014
  Topic: Info Integrity: Global Policy and Compliance for Secure Messaging
  Topic: Network/Application Troubleshooting methodology with case studies 
and a focus on Voice over IP

  Directions:
  http://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?addr=4%20Infinite%20Loop&csz=Cupertino,+CA+9501
  4&country=us

  For complete abstracts, view the RSVP description.

  RSVP HERE: http://www.mollyguard.com/event/23347834
  Please note, there are two RSVP types.  Choose the "Meeting Only" if you 
plan to attend just the meeting.  Choose "PIZZA&BEER BASH RSVP" if you are 
planning on attending the meeting and the p&b bash afterwards.



From david at catwhisker.org  Wed Jan 25 14:46:58 2006
From: david at catwhisker.org (David Wolfskill)
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 14:46:58 -0800
Subject: Remember MODEMs?
Message-ID: <20060125224658.GV94023@bunrab.catwhisker.org>

I've been asked for a recommendation for a stand-alone MODEM intended
for out-of-band access to a remote terminal server.

I'm not expecting it to receive much use, nor does it need to be either
fast or fancy.  (We're using 9600 bps for the connections through the
terminal server.)

It does need to sit for long periods of time doing nothing, but spring
into action and work reliably when it is called.

It's been so long since I've used a dial-up MODEM that I don't even
remember for sure what comanies still make them.  :-}  (I do still have
a Telebit WorldBlazer, I think -- but I know Telebit's been gone for a
while.)

Suggestions for coming "up to speed" on this would be much appreciated!

Thanks in advance; I'll summarize.

Peace,
david   (who hasn't checked the MODEM on his year-old laptop)
-- 
David H. Wolfskill				david at catwhisker.org
Mail filters, like sewers, need to be most restrictive at the point of entry.

See http://www.catwhisker.org/~david/publickey.gpg for my public key.


From cyrus.sage at gmail.com  Wed Jan 25 16:03:30 2006
From: cyrus.sage at gmail.com (Cyrus Vesuna)
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 16:03:30 -0800
Subject: Storage consultants
In-Reply-To: <fdcccb10601241611xd6420c8v544763e1b0b7d895@mail.gmail.com>
References: <fdcccb10601241611xd6420c8v544763e1b0b7d895@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fdcccb10601251603g55e3d841od198306dd54eb815@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,
I'm looking for a directory/recommendation of storage consultants in
the Bay area, we are looking to setup a NAS/SAN and tape solution and
we'd like to
get some expertise in this area.

Thanks
Cyrus



From michael at halligan.org  Wed Jan 25 17:03:20 2006
From: michael at halligan.org (Michael T. Halligan)
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 17:03:20 -0800
Subject: Remember MODEMs?
In-Reply-To: <20060125224658.GV94023@bunrab.catwhisker.org>
References: <20060125224658.GV94023@bunrab.catwhisker.org>
Message-ID: <81B06471-8BEB-4654-94D0-30AADE388BEC@halligan.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

You should be able to buy a used USR Courier v.everything for $20 on  
ebay.


Michael T. Halligan
- -------------------------------------
BitPusher, LLC
http://www.bitpusher.com/



On Jan 25, 2006, at 2:46 PM, David Wolfskill wrote:

> I've been asked for a recommendation for a stand-alone MODEM intended
> for out-of-band access to a remote terminal server.
>
> I'm not expecting it to receive much use, nor does it need to be  
> either
> fast or fancy.  (We're using 9600 bps for the connections through the
> terminal server.)
>
> It does need to sit for long periods of time doing nothing, but spring
> into action and work reliably when it is called.
>
> It's been so long since I've used a dial-up MODEM that I don't even
> remember for sure what comanies still make them.  :-}  (I do still  
> have
> a Telebit WorldBlazer, I think -- but I know Telebit's been gone for a
> while.)
>
> Suggestions for coming "up to speed" on this would be much  
> appreciated!
>
> Thanks in advance; I'll summarize.
>
> Peace,
> david   (who hasn't checked the MODEM on his year-old laptop)
> -- 
> David H. Wolfskill				david at catwhisker.org
> Mail filters, like sewers, need to be most restrictive at the point  
> of entry.
>
> See http://www.catwhisker.org/~david/publickey.gpg for my public key.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin)

iD8DBQFD2B/cwjCqooJyNAMRAnqnAJ0ZTM34/nrCszoeVM6Dp3SBbJFGGwCcDutz
nos1w0+jZ0IHlzoSj1GjZ6g=
=okTW
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From damon at controltier.com  Wed Jan 25 17:15:52 2006
From: damon at controltier.com (Damon Edwards)
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 17:15:52 -0800
Subject: Storage consultants
In-Reply-To: <fdcccb10601251603g55e3d841od198306dd54eb815@mail.gmail.com>
References: <fdcccb10601241611xd6420c8v544763e1b0b7d895@mail.gmail.com> <fdcccb10601251603g55e3d841od198306dd54eb815@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <df2105e1e2e19f051b2b76e0b0d36fcd@controltier.com>

We've been really happy with Fusion Storm (http://www.fusionstorm.com).

Not sure if they are the cheapest, but they are probably among the 
best. They have deep expertise and are very close to the various 
vendors.

Our rep is Jim Stucky
JStucky at FusionStorm.com




On Jan 25, 2006, at 4:03 PM, Cyrus Vesuna wrote:

> Hi,
> I'm looking for a directory/recommendation of storage consultants in
> the Bay area, we are looking to setup a NAS/SAN and tape solution and
> we'd like to
> get some expertise in this area.
>
> Thanks
> Cyrus
>



From jxh at jxh.com  Wed Jan 25 17:22:33 2006
From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein)
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 19:22:33 -0600
Subject: Remember MODEMs?
In-Reply-To: <81B06471-8BEB-4654-94D0-30AADE388BEC@halligan.org>
References: <20060125224658.GV94023@bunrab.catwhisker.org> <81B06471-8BEB-4654-94D0-30AADE388BEC@halligan.org>
Message-ID: <43D82459.5090100@jxh.com>

Michael T. Halligan wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> You should be able to buy a used USR Courier v.everything for $20 on ebay.

Or $5 at WeirdStuff, IIRC.


From steve at luminareconsulting.com  Thu Jan 26 01:00:24 2006
From: steve at luminareconsulting.com (steve)
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 01:00:24 -0800
Subject: Storage consultants
In-Reply-To: <df2105e1e2e19f051b2b76e0b0d36fcd@controltier.com>
References: <fdcccb10601241611xd6420c8v544763e1b0b7d895@mail.gmail.com> <fdcccb10601251603g55e3d841od198306dd54eb815@mail.gmail.com> <df2105e1e2e19f051b2b76e0b0d36fcd@controltier.com>
Message-ID: <43D88FA8.3000808@luminareconsulting.com>

I've had a few deployments...
Netapp used these guys, and we were pleased.  http://kovarus.com/ (no 
idea what they bill)
EMC on the otherhand... used trainees!
-steve

> We've been really happy with Fusion Storm (http://www.fusionstorm.com).
>
> Not sure if they are the cheapest, but they are probably among the 
> best. They have deep expertise and are very close to the various vendors.
>
> Our rep is Jim Stucky
> JStucky at FusionStorm.com
>
>
>
>
> On Jan 25, 2006, at 4:03 PM, Cyrus Vesuna wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> I'm looking for a directory/recommendation of storage consultants in
>> the Bay area, we are looking to setup a NAS/SAN and tape solution and
>> we'd like to
>> get some expertise in this area.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Cyrus
>>
>



From dannyman at toldme.com  Fri Jan 27 09:53:01 2006
From: dannyman at toldme.com (Danny Howard)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 09:53:01 -0800
Subject: Google Ops Presentation and Meeting Formats
Message-ID: <20060127175301.GX9258@ratchet.nebcorp.com>

Hi,

I attended the Google presentation yesterday.  I don't normally attend
BayLISA meetings because, per an earlier e-mail thread, I live in Contra
Costa, but Google ... I have a special fondness for Google.

Can anyone tell me if the presentation materials from the Google Ops
presentation are available online somewhere?  I usually work on Fridays,
so I had to leave during the third hour of the presentation.

I couldn't help but notice that the little "Open Source at 20" warmup
presentation, which in my mind should have been a breezy 20 minutes,
took and hour.  And when I finally surrendered all hope around 10PM, it
seemed that the technical presentation had maybe made it about 40%
through, if that.

It seemed ... well, it seemed that every slide had a 90% overhead of
SysAdmins asking, sometimes insightful, and often pointless questions.
My favorites were the ones where ... okay, I'm not flaming.  But ... I
mean, a lot of the questions were "I have an extremely short attention
span so I'm going to ask you now a question which you would ordinarily
have answered on the next slide were I not interrupting you."

My question, is, do BayLISA presentations normally go like this?  Or was
there something in the Google water?  It would seem very sane to "save
your questions for the end" ... because, while I found the presentation
engaging, I had this growing desire to jump up on the desk and yell at
everyone to just shut up for half an hour and let the guy present ...
but that would have been overly stereotypical SysAdmin behaviour, which
would have defeated the point.  And while I would have phrased my
suggestion that everyone shut up politely, I didn't want to be the
guy-who-never-shows-up-then-proposes-that-BayLISA-change-its-format-halfway-through-the-presentation.

Do you guys always drag presentations out for hours on end?  Would it
have been frowned on if I had raised my hand and asked if maybe the
presenter could present?  Can someone forward me the presenter's contact
info?  I'd love to actually see the presentation sometime. :)

Thanks,
-danny

-- 
http://dannyman.toldme.com/


From extasia at extasia.org  Fri Jan 27 10:33:25 2006
From: extasia at extasia.org (David Alban)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 10:33:25 -0800
Subject: [baylisa] Google Ops Presentation and Meeting Formats
In-Reply-To: <20060127175301.GX9258@ratchet.nebcorp.com>
References: <20060127175301.GX9258@ratchet.nebcorp.com>
Message-ID: <4c714a9c0601271033n614adf4fve6cc299d2715060@mail.gmail.com>

Yes!  I'm glad my inside voice didn't make it "outside" last night.

Perhaps, for those folks who might perceive this as a limitation on
creativity/speech/etc., a compromise, voluntarily self-imposed by
willing individuals, might be:  everyone limit yourself to one,
simple, easy-to-communicate, non-compound question without follow-ups,
before the presentation is over, then go nuts.

On 1/27/06, Danny Howard <dannyman at toldme.com> wrote:
> while I found the presentation
> engaging, I had this growing desire to jump up on the desk and yell at
> everyone to just shut up for half an hour and let the guy present ...
> but that would have been overly stereotypical SysAdmin behaviour, which
> would have defeated the point.  And while I would have phrased my
> suggestion that everyone shut up politely, I didn't want to be the
> guy-who-never-shows-up-then-proposes-that-BayLISA-change-its-format-halfway-through-the-presentation.

--
Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors.



From sigje at sigje.org  Fri Jan 27 11:34:20 2006
From: sigje at sigje.org (Jennifer Davis)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 11:34:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Google Ops Presentation and Meeting Formats
In-Reply-To: <20060127175301.GX9258@ratchet.nebcorp.com>
References: <20060127175301.GX9258@ratchet.nebcorp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271130210.21500@slick.sigje.org>


Generally it depends on the presenter.  We encourage the presenters to be 
strict with their time.

We'd love to have more volunteer nonBoard MCs that could handle piping up 
and realigning the talks when they get off topic.. Us Board members are 
a little hesitant to dictate how the meeting goes .. Any volunteers 
interested?

Jennifer


From rsr at inorganic.org  Fri Jan 27 11:39:36 2006
From: rsr at inorganic.org (Roy S. Rapoport)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 11:39:36 -0800
Subject: Google Ops Presentation and Meeting Formats
In-Reply-To: <20060127175301.GX9258@ratchet.nebcorp.com>
References: <20060127175301.GX9258@ratchet.nebcorp.com>
Message-ID: <20060127193936.GA20643@puppy.inorganic.org>

On Fri, Jan 27, 2006 at 09:53:01AM -0800, Danny Howard wrote:
> It seemed ... well, it seemed that every slide had a 90% overhead of
> SysAdmins asking, sometimes insightful, and often pointless questions.
> My favorites were the ones where ... okay, I'm not flaming.  But ... I
> mean, a lot of the questions were "I have an extremely short attention
> span so I'm going to ask you now a question which you would ordinarily
> have answered on the next slide were I not interrupting you."
> 
> My question, is, do BayLISA presentations normally go like this?  Or was

I've gone to BayLISA presentations for the last 11 years or so, on and off
(mostly off lately).  In my experience, and the experience of some of the
people I work with, they've suffered from the "I want to sound
smart/funny/insightful so I'm going to make a comment in the form of a
question RIGHT NOW rather than waiting" syndrome for approximately 11 of
these last 11 years.

-roy


From jxh at jxh.com  Fri Jan 27 12:08:02 2006
From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 14:08:02 -0600
Subject: Google Ops Presentation and Meeting Formats
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271130210.21500@slick.sigje.org>
References: <20060127175301.GX9258@ratchet.nebcorp.com> <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271130210.21500@slick.sigje.org>
Message-ID: <43DA7DA2.4020107@jxh.com>

> We'd love to have more volunteer nonBoard MCs that could handle piping 
> up and realigning the talks when they get off topic.. Us Board members 
> are a little hesitant to dictate how the meeting goes

Oh, we're not all hesitant. :-)  I've done this before, though I tried 
to keep it light.  It's actually a documented responsibility of the 
EventCoordinator (in the internal TWiki), but it often goes better when 
the EC delegates this to a specific moderator (often a volunteer) who is 
not shy.  There are moderators and moderators, just as there are 
speakers and speakers, to say no more.

To answer the original question some more: It varies.  Some meetings are 
quite formal, hands raised and speaking in turn; some are 4-hour-plus 
animated "discussions", at least some of which turn out to be 
worthwhile.  (My private concern about the time was mostly that we used 
to run out of video tape. :-)  If you're a witness to one of the latter 
melees, I'd say it's perfectly appropriate to speak up and ask if this 
is how most people want it to go that evening.  The speaker (or the 
moderator) can then regain control.


From sigje at sigje.org  Fri Jan 27 12:11:50 2006
From: sigje at sigje.org (Jennifer Davis)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 12:11:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Google Ops Presentation and Meeting Formats
In-Reply-To: <43DA7DA2.4020107@jxh.com>
References: <20060127175301.GX9258@ratchet.nebcorp.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271130210.21500@slick.sigje.org> <43DA7DA2.4020107@jxh.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271208520.22101@slick.sigje.org>

> To answer the original question some more: It varies.  Some meetings are 
> quite formal, hands raised and speaking in turn; some are 4-hour-plus 
> animated "discussions", at least some of which turn out to be worthwhile. 
> (My private concern about the time was mostly that we used to run out of 
> video tape. :-)  If you're a witness to one of the latter melees, I'd say 
> it's perfectly appropriate to speak up and ask if this is how most people 
> want it to go that evening.  The speaker (or the moderator) can then regain 
> control.

We can handle 6 hours of recording I think .. MC last night was Alan.. his 
first time at it..He did a reasonable job, but he was also behind the 
camera as well.

I am definitely hesitant.  I actually raised my hand to cut off the 
questions at the end.

Again.. I reiterate, we need volunteers who are comfortable piping up :) 
Jim move on back here. :)

Jennifer


From jxh at jxh.com  Fri Jan 27 12:23:07 2006
From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 14:23:07 -0600
Subject: Google Ops Presentation and Meeting Formats
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271208520.22101@slick.sigje.org>
References: <20060127175301.GX9258@ratchet.nebcorp.com> <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271130210.21500@slick.sigje.org> <43DA7DA2.4020107@jxh.com> <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271208520.22101@slick.sigje.org>
Message-ID: <43DA812B.9080905@jxh.com>

> Again.. I reiterate, we need volunteers who are comfortable piping up :) 
> Jim move on back here. :)

Buy me a house. :-)  http://www.jxh.com/jxh/1740/

(This rest of this may be OT, but since there's a meta-meeting going on, 
I'll offer it anyway.)

Seriously, though: We (local groups generally) need not only people who 
can moderate meetings, but a system that makes more such people. 
Technical people generally won't sign up for a class on public speaking, 
or anything else they dislike that much, but they can follow someone's 
lead.  If you ask for a volunteer emcee, you won't get the ones who are 
shy.  But maybe you can hook them for something else first (come and 
help set up the video camera!) and then ask if they will broaden their 
involvement if offered some coaching.  (A role-playing session after a 
BLW meeting?)

Same for the very rare skill of beating the bushes for speakers and 
sponsors.  You and Strata can do that; not everyone can.  It can be 
taught, I'm convinced.


From bill at wards.net  Fri Jan 27 12:30:56 2006
From: bill at wards.net (Bill Ward)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 12:30:56 -0800
Subject: Google Ops Presentation and Meeting Formats
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271130210.21500@slick.sigje.org>
References: <20060127175301.GX9258@ratchet.nebcorp.com>
	 <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271130210.21500@slick.sigje.org>
Message-ID: <3d2fe1780601271230r9ebf97cv313b8bf6f179fbc1@mail.gmail.com>

I agree with those who wish for a little less audience participation
in the presentations.  It can be very disruptive to the speaker's
schedule.  Holding questions to the end may be a good way to solve the
problem.

On 1/27/06, Jennifer Davis <sigje at sigje.org> wrote:
>
> Generally it depends on the presenter.  We encourage the presenters to be
> strict with their time.
>
> We'd love to have more volunteer nonBoard MCs that could handle piping up
> and realigning the talks when they get off topic.. Us Board members are
> a little hesitant to dictate how the meeting goes .. Any volunteers
> interested?
>
> Jennifer
>


--
Help bring back the San Jose Earthquakes - http://www.soccersiliconvalley.com/



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Fri Jan 27 13:08:12 2006
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 13:08:12 -0800
Subject: Google Ops Presentation and Meeting Formats
In-Reply-To: <3d2fe1780601271230r9ebf97cv313b8bf6f179fbc1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20060127175301.GX9258@ratchet.nebcorp.com> <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271130210.21500@slick.sigje.org> <3d2fe1780601271230r9ebf97cv313b8bf6f179fbc1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060127210812.GF29069@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Bill Ward (bill at wards.net):

> I agree with those who wish for a little less audience participation
> in the presentations.  It can be very disruptive to the speaker's
> schedule.  Holding questions to the end may be a good way to solve the
> problem.

That's my personal preference, too.  Some speakers actually don't like
that, though, so my favourite approach as meeting coordinator follows:

Before the meeting, ask speaker to pick a policy, any of:

1. Hold questions/comments to the end.
2. Raise hand, wait to be recognised by speaker (optionally with help 
   from meeting coordinator).
3. Blurt it right out, man.

While introducing speaker, mention speaker's preference.  If it's 1 or 2, 
be prepared to enforce it with gentle cluebatting^Wpersuasion.  In any
case, watch the clock and redirect or cut off any kibbitzing that's
overlong.



From deirdre at deirdre.net  Fri Jan 27 13:16:51 2006
From: deirdre at deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse Moen)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 15:16:51 -0600
Subject: Google Ops Presentation and Meeting Formats
In-Reply-To: <20060127210812.GF29069@linuxmafia.com>
References: <20060127175301.GX9258@ratchet.nebcorp.com> <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271130210.21500@slick.sigje.org> <3d2fe1780601271230r9ebf97cv313b8bf6f179fbc1@mail.gmail.com> <20060127210812.GF29069@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <F5A16014-7C35-48FE-B847-0E9ABB6A6AAF@deirdre.net>

On Jan 27, 2006, at 3:08 PM, Rick Moen wrote:

> Quoting Bill Ward (bill at wards.net):
>
>> I agree with those who wish for a little less audience participation
>> in the presentations.  It can be very disruptive to the speaker's
>> schedule.  Holding questions to the end may be a good way to solve  
>> the
>> problem.
>
> That's my personal preference, too.  Some speakers actually don't like
> that, though, so my favourite approach as meeting coordinator follows:
>
> Before the meeting, ask speaker to pick a policy, any of:
>
> 1. Hold questions/comments to the end.
> 2. Raise hand, wait to be recognised by speaker (optionally with help
>    from meeting coordinator).
> 3. Blurt it right out, man.

How they're doing it in the seminar today:

Breaking the talk into sections, then asking if anyone has questions  
during specific sections.

-- 
_Deirdre                                             http://deirdre.net




From bill at wards.net  Fri Jan 27 13:23:47 2006
From: bill at wards.net (Bill Ward)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 13:23:47 -0800
Subject: Google Ops Presentation and Meeting Formats
In-Reply-To: <43DA812B.9080905@jxh.com>
References: <20060127175301.GX9258@ratchet.nebcorp.com>
	 <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271130210.21500@slick.sigje.org>
	 <43DA7DA2.4020107@jxh.com>
	 <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271208520.22101@slick.sigje.org>
	 <43DA812B.9080905@jxh.com>
Message-ID: <3d2fe1780601271323s732f5bd8u1449b10924eedf0a@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/27/06, Jim Hickstein <jxh at jxh.com> wrote:
> Seriously, though: We (local groups generally) need not only people who
> can moderate meetings, but a system that makes more such people.
> Technical people generally won't sign up for a class on public speaking,
> or anything else they dislike that much, but they can follow someone's
> lead.  If you ask for a volunteer emcee, you won't get the ones who are
> shy.  But maybe you can hook them for something else first (come and
> help set up the video camera!) and then ask if they will broaden their
> involvement if offered some coaching.  (A role-playing session after a
> BLW meeting?)
>
> Same for the very rare skill of beating the bushes for speakers and
> sponsors.  You and Strata can do that; not everyone can.  It can be
> taught, I'm convinced.

Would there be any interest in starting a Toastmasters club for
technical people?  I've been involved in Toastmasters for a few years
now and have learned a great deal about public speaking and
leadership.  And it's a lot cheaper than signing up for a class.

--
Help bring back the San Jose Earthquakes - http://www.soccersiliconvalley.com/



From bill at wards.net  Fri Jan 27 13:39:22 2006
From: bill at wards.net (Bill Ward)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 13:39:22 -0800
Subject: Google Ops Presentation and Meeting Formats
In-Reply-To: <F5A16014-7C35-48FE-B847-0E9ABB6A6AAF@deirdre.net>
References: <20060127175301.GX9258@ratchet.nebcorp.com>
	 <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271130210.21500@slick.sigje.org>
	 <3d2fe1780601271230r9ebf97cv313b8bf6f179fbc1@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20060127210812.GF29069@linuxmafia.com>
	 <F5A16014-7C35-48FE-B847-0E9ABB6A6AAF@deirdre.net>
Message-ID: <3d2fe1780601271339n2ae0b68cucbfff18ddc1dc347@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/27/06, Deirdre Saoirse Moen <deirdre at deirdre.net> wrote:
> On Jan 27, 2006, at 3:08 PM, Rick Moen wrote:
>
> > Quoting Bill Ward (bill at wards.net):
> >
> >> I agree with those who wish for a little less audience participation
> >> in the presentations.  It can be very disruptive to the speaker's
> >> schedule.  Holding questions to the end may be a good way to solve
> >> the
> >> problem.
> >
> > That's my personal preference, too.  Some speakers actually don't like
> > that, though, so my favourite approach as meeting coordinator follows:
> >
> > Before the meeting, ask speaker to pick a policy, any of:
> >
> > 1. Hold questions/comments to the end.
> > 2. Raise hand, wait to be recognised by speaker (optionally with help
> >    from meeting coordinator).
> > 3. Blurt it right out, man.
>
> How they're doing it in the seminar today:
>
> Breaking the talk into sections, then asking if anyone has questions
> during specific sections.

That's a good approach for longer presentations.

--
Help bring back the San Jose Earthquakes - http://www.soccersiliconvalley.com/



From Brent at greatcircle.com  Fri Jan 27 14:02:09 2006
From: Brent at greatcircle.com (Brent Chapman)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 14:02:09 -0800
Subject: Google Ops Presentation and Meeting Formats
In-Reply-To: <20060127175301.GX9258@ratchet.nebcorp.com>
References: <20060127175301.GX9258@ratchet.nebcorp.com>
Message-ID: <p062309bec000479d6df5@[66.92.48.19]>

At 9:53 AM -0800 1/27/06, Danny Howard wrote:
>It seemed ... well, it seemed that every slide had a 90% overhead of
>SysAdmins asking, sometimes insightful, and often pointless questions.
>My favorites were the ones where ... okay, I'm not flaming.  But ... I
>mean, a lot of the questions were "I have an extremely short attention
>span so I'm going to ask you now a question which you would ordinarily
>have answered on the next slide were I not interrupting you."
>
>My question, is, do BayLISA presentations normally go like this?  Or was
>there something in the Google water?

Speaking as someone who has presented at BayLISA many times: yes, 
they usually go like that if the speaker doesn't take (and keep) firm 
control.

>It would seem very sane to "save
>your questions for the end" ... because, while I found the presentation
>engaging, I had this growing desire to jump up on the desk and yell at
>everyone to just shut up for half an hour and let the guy present ...

No...  But the speaker needs to limit the number of questions they 
take after each slide, forcefully if necessary, and then Move On.  I 
try to draw the line at 3-5 questions, myself, but that's going to 
vary by speaker and topic.

On the other hand, I think it would have been very appropriate (and, 
indeed, quite welcome by both the speakers and most of the audience) 
for one of the BayLISA organizers to stand up and make that statement 
to get things back on track.


-Brent
-- 
Brent Chapman <brent at greatcircle.com> -- Great Circle Associates, Inc.
Specializing in network infrastructure for Silicon Valley since 1989
For info about us and our services, please see http://www.greatcircle.com/
Great Circle Waypoints Blog: http://www.greatcircle.com/blog


From bob at sutterfields.us  Fri Jan 27 14:15:16 2006
From: bob at sutterfields.us (Bob Sutterfield)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 14:15:16 -0800
Subject: Google Ops Presentation and Meeting Formats
In-Reply-To: <20060127175301.GX9258@ratchet.nebcorp.com>
Message-ID: <43da9b77.2dd5d3b6.5e3c.ffffaae4@mx.gmail.com>

I'm another list lurker / first-time attendee at BayLISA, but this sort of
audience is neither new nor unique.  The "I need to sound clever NOW"
questions are standard fare.  A skillful speaker or moderator can see those
questions coming from a mile away, especially if they know the crowd.  A
really skillful speaker can redirect the force of the question to propel him
on through his presentation - it's a judo thing.

Brent and I had a repeating pool going on our side of the room, betting how
many more questions the speaker would endure before he managed to escape
from the current slide.  Each time either of us stuck our paws in the air,
it was to toss the speaker a slow pitch he could hit in the obvious forward
direction and get back in motion through his slides.  Sometimes it worked...

That sort of crowd control and speaker assistance is neither the exclusive
province, nor exclusive responsibility, of the host{,ess} or moderator.  It
can be accomplished through truly artful questioning by anyone in the
audience.  The best solution is of course self-control by the rest of the
crowd :-)
--
Bob Sutterfield
bob at sutterfields.us
http://sutterfields.us



From sigje at sigje.org  Fri Jan 27 14:35:07 2006
From: sigje at sigje.org (Jennifer Davis)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 14:35:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Google Ops Presentation and Meeting Formats
In-Reply-To: <p062309bec000479d6df5@[66.92.48.19]>
References: <20060127175301.GX9258@ratchet.nebcorp.com> <p062309bec000479d6df5@[66.92.48.19]>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271434410.22101@slick.sigje.org>


So I'm hearing lots of "didn't like" feelings about the presentations last 
night.  Any positives?




From ahorn at deorth.org  Fri Jan 27 14:39:44 2006
From: ahorn at deorth.org (Alan Horn)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 14:39:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Google Ops Presentation and Meeting Formats
In-Reply-To: <p062309bec000479d6df5@[66.92.48.19]>
References: <20060127175301.GX9258@ratchet.nebcorp.com> <p062309bec000479d6df5@[66.92.48.19]>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271437040.28989@slick.sigje.org>


>
> On the other hand, I think it would have been very appropriate (and, indeed, 
> quite welcome by both the speakers and most of the audience) for one of the 
> BayLISA organizers to stand up and make that statement to get things back on 
> track.
>

Thats by no means the exclusive domain of the organisers. Any one of you 
can stick your hand up and say 'hi, theres a lot of questions, but can we 
see more slides please' :)

Cheers,

Al



From ahorn at deorth.org  Fri Jan 27 14:43:11 2006
From: ahorn at deorth.org (Alan Horn)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 14:43:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Google Ops Presentation and Meeting Formats
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271434410.22101@slick.sigje.org>
References: <20060127175301.GX9258@ratchet.nebcorp.com> <p062309bec000479d6df5@[66.92.48.19]>
 <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271434410.22101@slick.sigje.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271439540.28989@slick.sigje.org>


On Fri, 27 Jan 2006, Jennifer Davis wrote:

>Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 14:35:07 -0800 (PST)
>From: Jennifer Davis <sigje at sigje.org>
>To: baylisa at baylisa.org
>Subject: Re: Google Ops Presentation and Meeting Formats
>
>
> So I'm hearing lots of "didn't like" feelings about the presentations last 
> night.  Any positives?
>
>
>

I thought Bernard's presentation was great. A very different type of 
presentation subject. Perhaps I'm in the minority, A lot of folks in the 
room didn't seem to 'get' that one.

I wanted more out of the google presentation. There was wayyyy to much "I 
can't answer that", or "I'm not really the most qualified person..."

Perhaps you aren't, but you're in front of us, and so make a stab at it 
without all the qualifiers.

Perhaps Google needs to sit down and work out what their speakers can and 
can't say ? He seemed too wary to me.

That said, the subject matter was nice, albeit nowhere near as technical 
as I'd desired.

The venus was excellent, as was the food. I look forward to the next event 
there.

Cheers,

Al



From dannyman at toldme.com  Fri Jan 27 15:06:24 2006
From: dannyman at toldme.com (Danny Howard)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 15:06:24 -0800
Subject: Google Ops Presentation and Meeting Formats
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271434410.22101@slick.sigje.org>
References: <20060127175301.GX9258@ratchet.nebcorp.com> <p062309bec000479d6df5@[66.92.48.19]> <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271434410.22101@slick.sigje.org>
Message-ID: <20060127230624.GB9258@ratchet.nebcorp.com>

On Fri, Jan 27, 2006 at 02:35:07PM -0800, Jennifer Davis wrote:
> 
> So I'm hearing lots of "didn't like" feelings about the presentations last 
> night.  Any positives?

Well, I thought the material being presented was interesting.

But I couldn't make it through the Q&A.

If I could get in touch with the speaker and/or materials, I would
greatly appreciate that. :)  Perhaps if he does his presentation again,
I can enjoy the content properly.

The spread was ... excellent, and the Google campus makes me hot.  And
since I have friends at Google ... if somehow they were to find
themselves donating space for meetings, it would be substantially more
tempting to make the trip down for meetings.  Heck, I'd even volunteer
to emcee and cut off questions when things get out of hand.

My 2c. :)

-danny


From dannyman at toldme.com  Fri Jan 27 15:08:49 2006
From: dannyman at toldme.com (Danny Howard)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 15:08:49 -0800
Subject: Google Ops Presentation and Meeting Formats
In-Reply-To: <43da9b77.2dd5d3b6.5e3c.ffffaae4@mx.gmail.com>
References: <20060127175301.GX9258@ratchet.nebcorp.com> <43da9b77.2dd5d3b6.5e3c.ffffaae4@mx.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060127230849.GC9258@ratchet.nebcorp.com>

On Fri, Jan 27, 2006 at 02:15:16PM -0800, Bob Sutterfield wrote:

> Brent and I had a repeating pool going on our side of the room, betting how
> many more questions the speaker would endure before he managed to escape
> from the current slide.  Each time either of us stuck our paws in the air,
> it was to toss the speaker a slow pitch he could hit in the obvious forward
> direction and get back in motion through his slides.  Sometimes it worked...

"Hi, I'm just curious what the rest of your presentation is about.  What
is on the next slide?"

I'll remember that next time I'm in that situation again, whether I'd
surrounded by SysAdmins or not. :)

Thanks for the advice, Bob.

-danny


From bob at sutterfields.us  Fri Jan 27 15:18:23 2006
From: bob at sutterfields.us (Bob Sutterfield)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 15:18:23 -0800
Subject: Google Ops Presentation and Meeting Formats
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271434410.22101@slick.sigje.org>
Message-ID: <43daaa42.0a10512a.621a.29d7@mx.gmail.com>

Jennifer Davis wrote:
> So I'm hearing lots of "didn't like" feelings about the 
> presentations last night.  Any positives?

I haven't heard anything negative yet about the content or the presenters
(both were fine), only the audience dynamics.
--
Bob Sutterfield
bob at sutterfields.us
http://sutterfields.us



From Brent at greatcircle.com  Fri Jan 27 15:33:11 2006
From: Brent at greatcircle.com (Brent Chapman)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 15:33:11 -0800
Subject: Google Ops Presentation and Meeting Formats
In-Reply-To: <43daaa42.0a10512a.621a.29d7@mx.gmail.com>
References: <43daaa42.0a10512a.621a.29d7@mx.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p062309c3c0005de2a629@[66.92.48.19]>

At 3:18 PM -0800 1/27/06, Bob Sutterfield wrote:
>Jennifer Davis wrote:
>>  So I'm hearing lots of "didn't like" feelings about the
>>  presentations last night.  Any positives?
>
>I haven't heard anything negative yet about the content or the presenters
>(both were fine), only the audience dynamics.

Yes, that's my feeling as well.  The talks were fine, the spread was 
great, and the venue was good (though having to be escorted in/out 
through security is always an annoyance), but the audience wasn't 
well managed (by itself, by the organizers, or by the speakers).


-Brent
-- 
Brent Chapman <brent at greatcircle.com> -- Great Circle Associates, Inc.
Specializing in network infrastructure for Silicon Valley since 1989
For info about us and our services, please see http://www.greatcircle.com/
Great Circle Waypoints Blog: http://www.greatcircle.com/blog


From stripes at tigerlair.com  Fri Jan 27 15:36:39 2006
From: stripes at tigerlair.com (stripes)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 18:36:39 -0500
Subject: Google Ops Presentation and Meeting Formats
In-Reply-To: <20060127230849.GC9258@ratchet.nebcorp.com>; from dannyman@toldme.com on Fri, Jan 27, 2006 at 03:08:49PM -0800
References: <20060127175301.GX9258@ratchet.nebcorp.com> <43da9b77.2dd5d3b6.5e3c.ffffaae4@mx.gmail.com> <20060127230849.GC9258@ratchet.nebcorp.com>
Message-ID: <20060127183639.A18119@tigerlair.com>

On Fri, Jan 27, 2006 at 03:08:49PM -0800, Danny Howard wrote:
> "Hi, I'm just curious what the rest of your presentation is about.  What
> is on the next slide?"
> I'll remember that next time I'm in that situation again, whether I'd
> surrounded by SysAdmins or not. :)

I love it! :) I'm going to have it use it myself :)

As someone who has presented at BayLISA without slides, I expected more of
a conversation than me just running my yap anyway. 

The part that surprised me is that there were about 3-4 people who wanted
to talk more than me :)

-Anne
--
Conformity: Proudly           (\`--/') _ _______ .-r-.  
serving painfully boring       >.~.\ `` ` `,`,`. ,'_'~`.          
people since time began.      (v_," ; `,-\ ; : ; \/,-~) \            
stripes at tigerlair dot com   `--'_..),-/ ' ' '_.>-' )`.`.__.')   
stripes at brickbox dot com   ((,((,__..'~~~~~~((,__..'  `-..-'fL    


From ahorn at deorth.org  Fri Jan 27 16:03:35 2006
From: ahorn at deorth.org (Alan Horn)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:03:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Google Ops Presentation and Meeting Formats
In-Reply-To: <p062309c3c0005de2a629@[66.92.48.19]>
References: <43daaa42.0a10512a.621a.29d7@mx.gmail.com> <p062309c3c0005de2a629@[66.92.48.19]>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271553090.28989@slick.sigje.org>


On Fri, 27 Jan 2006, Brent Chapman wrote:

> Yes, that's my feeling as well.  The talks were fine, the spread was great, 
> and the venue was good (though having to be escorted in/out through security 
> is always an annoyance), but the audience wasn't well managed (by itself, by 
> the organizers, or by the speakers).

Thanks for the advice Brent. I'll try and manage it better in the future 
when I'm EC. I think I'm doing the next Google event as well.

That said, I would like to make two comments :

The first speaker ran over by 10 minutes. Well within normal 'management' 
of such, and more timely than a lot of speakers.

The second speaker was intentiionally allowed to speak as long as he 
wanted without interruptions. It's his venue and we wanted to be invited 
back :). That was a conscious choice decided beforehand. So, poor handling 
of question flow aside, thats probably the main reason we didn't 
interrupt.

Cheers,

Al


From jxh at jxh.com  Fri Jan 27 16:03:54 2006
From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 18:03:54 -0600
Subject: Google Ops Presentation and Meeting Formats
In-Reply-To: <p062309c3c0005de2a629@[66.92.48.19]>
References: <43daaa42.0a10512a.621a.29d7@mx.gmail.com> <p062309c3c0005de2a629@[66.92.48.19]>
Message-ID: <43DAB4EA.4030003@jxh.com>

> Yes, that's my feeling as well.  The talks were fine, the spread was 
> great, and the venue was good (though having to be escorted in/out 
> through security is always an annoyance), but the audience wasn't well 
> managed (by itself, by the organizers, or by the speakers).

How about the median BayLISA meeting?  Am I hallucinating the bit about 
raising hands and waiting?


From bill at wards.net  Fri Jan 27 16:13:03 2006
From: bill at wards.net (Bill Ward)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:13:03 -0800
Subject: Google Ops Presentation and Meeting Formats
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271434410.22101@slick.sigje.org>
References: <20060127175301.GX9258@ratchet.nebcorp.com>
	 <p062309bec000479d6df5@66.92.48.19>
	 <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271434410.22101@slick.sigje.org>
Message-ID: <3d2fe1780601271613k25aadd74md2b911948c63c9ad@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/27/06, Jennifer Davis <sigje at sigje.org> wrote:
> So I'm hearing lots of "didn't like" feelings about the presentations last
> night.  Any positives?

To be fair, I was not specifically referring to last night in my
remarks on this thread, since I was at PenLUG instead.  My comments
were more general, based on past experience at BayLISA meetings.

--
Help bring back the San Jose Earthquakes - http://www.soccersiliconvalley.com/



From Brent at greatcircle.com  Fri Jan 27 17:02:10 2006
From: Brent at greatcircle.com (Brent Chapman)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 17:02:10 -0800
Subject: Google Ops Presentation and Meeting Formats
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271553090.28989@slick.sigje.org>
References: <43daaa42.0a10512a.621a.29d7@mx.gmail.com>
 <p062309c3c0005de2a629@[66.92.48.19]>
 <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271553090.28989@slick.sigje.org>
Message-ID: <p062309c9c00072d18e18@[66.92.48.19]>

At 4:03 PM -0800 1/27/06, Alan Horn wrote:
>On Fri, 27 Jan 2006, Brent Chapman wrote:
>
>>Yes, that's my feeling as well.  The talks were fine, the spread 
>>was great, and the venue was good (though having to be escorted 
>>in/out through security is always an annoyance), but the audience 
>>wasn't well managed (by itself, by the organizers, or by the 
>>speakers).
>
>Thanks for the advice Brent. I'll try and manage it better in the 
>future when I'm EC. I think I'm doing the next Google event as well.
>
>That said, I would like to make two comments :
>
>The first speaker ran over by 10 minutes. Well within normal 
>'management' of such, and more timely than a lot of speakers.
>
>The second speaker was intentiionally allowed to speak as long as he 
>wanted without interruptions. It's his venue and we wanted to be 
>invited back :). That was a conscious choice decided beforehand. So, 
>poor handling of question flow aside, thats probably the main reason 
>we didn't interrupt.

 From my point of view, both of them ended up rushing through the last 
1/2 to 1/3 of their presentations, which is usually the most 
interesting parts, because they got held up in the introductory stuff 
in the beginning.


-Brent
-- 
Brent Chapman <brent at greatcircle.com> -- Great Circle Associates, Inc.
Specializing in network infrastructure for Silicon Valley since 1989
For info about us and our services, please see http://www.greatcircle.com/
Great Circle Waypoints Blog: http://www.greatcircle.com/blog


From Brent at greatcircle.com  Fri Jan 27 17:04:59 2006
From: Brent at greatcircle.com (Brent Chapman)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 17:04:59 -0800
Subject: Google Ops Presentation and Meeting Formats
In-Reply-To: <43DAB4EA.4030003@jxh.com>
References: <43daaa42.0a10512a.621a.29d7@mx.gmail.com>
 <p062309c3c0005de2a629@[66.92.48.19]> <43DAB4EA.4030003@jxh.com>
Message-ID: <p062309cac000731d9feb@[66.92.48.19]>

At 6:03 PM -0600 1/27/06, Jim Hickstein wrote:
>>Yes, that's my feeling as well.  The talks were fine, the spread 
>>was great, and the venue was good (though having to be escorted 
>>in/out through security is always an annoyance), but the audience 
>>wasn't well managed (by itself, by the organizers, or by the 
>>speakers).
>
>How about the median BayLISA meeting?  Am I hallucinating the bit 
>about raising hands and waiting?

In my experience, it depends on how big the audience is.  The bigger 
the audience, the more likely folks are to raise their hands and 
wait.  With a smaller audience, it gets more informal and 
interactive, and that's fine with me.

I didn't see too many people just blurting things out last night; 
folks were raising their hands and waiting to be called on.  The 
problem was, the speakers were calling on _everybody_ before moving 
on to the next slide.  Like I said before, I would have suggested 
taking just a few questions after each slide, and then moving on, 
even if you don't get to everybody who had their hand up.  That way, 
you don't end up rushing through the ending, which is usually where 
the meat of the talk is.


-Brent
-- 
Brent Chapman <brent at greatcircle.com> -- Great Circle Associates, Inc.
Specializing in network infrastructure for Silicon Valley since 1989
For info about us and our services, please see http://www.greatcircle.com/
Great Circle Waypoints Blog: http://www.greatcircle.com/blog


From ahorn at deorth.org  Fri Jan 27 17:07:02 2006
From: ahorn at deorth.org (Alan Horn)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 17:07:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Google Ops Presentation and Meeting Formats
In-Reply-To: <p062309c9c00072d18e18@[66.92.48.19]>
References: <43daaa42.0a10512a.621a.29d7@mx.gmail.com> <p062309c3c0005de2a629@[66.92.48.19]>
 <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271553090.28989@slick.sigje.org> <p062309c9c00072d18e18@[66.92.48.19]>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271706070.28989@slick.sigje.org>

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006, Brent Chapman wrote:

>
> From my point of view, both of them ended up rushing through the last 1/2 to 
> 1/3 of their presentations, which is usually the most interesting parts, 
> because they got held up in the introductory stuff in the beginning.
>
>

But honestly Brent, thats the speaker's issue to solve. We may have to 
agree to disagree on this point if you don't see it that way.

Cheers,

Al



From Brent at greatcircle.com  Fri Jan 27 17:36:52 2006
From: Brent at greatcircle.com (Brent Chapman)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 17:36:52 -0800
Subject: Google Ops Presentation and Meeting Formats
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271706070.28989@slick.sigje.org>
References: <43daaa42.0a10512a.621a.29d7@mx.gmail.com>
 <p062309c3c0005de2a629@[66.92.48.19]>
 <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271553090.28989@slick.sigje.org>
 <p062309c9c00072d18e18@[66.92.48.19]>
 <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271706070.28989@slick.sigje.org>
Message-ID: <p062309cbc0007483f3ea@[66.92.48.19]>

At 5:07 PM -0800 1/27/06, Alan Horn wrote:
>On Fri, 27 Jan 2006, Brent Chapman wrote:
>
>>
>>From my point of view, both of them ended up rushing through the 
>>last 1/2 to 1/3 of their presentations, which is usually the most 
>>interesting parts, because they got held up in the introductory 
>>stuff in the beginning.
>>
>
>But honestly Brent, thats the speaker's issue to solve. We may have 
>to agree to disagree on this point if you don't see it that way.

Yes, it is the speaker's issue to solve, but it is a failing of the 
organizer if the speaker _isn't_ solving it.  The speakers should be 
briefed before-hand on what sort of audience this is and how to 
handle them (were they?), and the organizer should be ready and 
willing to step in during the presentation when things seem to be 
getting extremely bogged down (as they were last night).

Fundamentally, I think that the organizer's job includes preparing 
the speaker for the audience, and stepping in to try to make sure the 
talk goes well.  The organizer knows their particular audience, while 
the speaker generally doesn't (though they may have dealt with 
similar audiences before).  Preparing the speaker is part of 
arranging the talk, and stepping in to nudge things back on track is 
part of MCing it.

Now, on the grand scale of things, this isn't that big a deal.  I've 
been very pleased with the quantity and quality of speakers that 
BayLISA has been getting lately.  This is a suggestion for improving 
what's already a good thing, that's all.


-Brent
-- 
Brent Chapman <brent at greatcircle.com> -- Great Circle Associates, Inc.
Specializing in network infrastructure for Silicon Valley since 1989
For info about us and our services, please see http://www.greatcircle.com/
Great Circle Waypoints Blog: http://www.greatcircle.com/blog


From damon at controltier.com  Fri Jan 27 17:47:03 2006
From: damon at controltier.com (Damon Edwards)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 17:47:03 -0800
Subject: Google Ops Presentation and Meeting Formats
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271706070.28989@slick.sigje.org>
References: <43daaa42.0a10512a.621a.29d7@mx.gmail.com> <p062309c3c0005de2a629@[66.92.48.19]> <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271553090.28989@slick.sigje.org> <p062309c9c00072d18e18@[66.92.48.19]> <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271706070.28989@slick.sigje.org>
Message-ID: <0eed07b0df8340615056ac00141f1306@controltier.com>

That's a tough order putting room discipline on the shoulders of the 
speaker. You have to remember that the speakers are invited by the 
group... therefore, they would probably feel that they are being rude 
if they go against what the group seems to want.

If the group acts like it wants to spend 3/4 of the alloted time 
discussing the first two slides, the speaker will often let things 
unfold that way. After all, how well do they really know what a 
particular audience wants? From my experience, figuring out the scope 
of what the audience wants to hear is often the most difficult part of 
any speaking engagement.

Isn't it really up to the group to decide what they want from the 
presentations and inform the speakers of the expectations or format?


On Jan 27, 2006, at 5:07 PM, Alan Horn wrote:

> On Fri, 27 Jan 2006, Brent Chapman wrote:
>
>>
>> From my point of view, both of them ended up rushing through the last 
>> 1/2 to 1/3 of their presentations, which is usually the most 
>> interesting parts, because they got held up in the introductory stuff 
>> in the beginning.
>>
>>
>
> But honestly Brent, thats the speaker's issue to solve. We may have to 
> agree to disagree on this point if you don't see it that way.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Al
>



From samlb at samlb.ws  Fri Jan 27 10:41:11 2006
From: samlb at samlb.ws (Sam'l B.)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 10:41:11 -0800
Subject: [baylisa] Google Ops Presentation and Meeting Formats
In-Reply-To: <4c714a9c0601271033n614adf4fve6cc299d2715060@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20060127175301.GX9258@ratchet.nebcorp.com> <4c714a9c0601271033n614adf4fve6cc299d2715060@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <43DA6947.9050904@samlb.ws>

    I also had to bug out at 10 PM, about half-way through the Google 
presentation -- which I found fascinating. 

    The first presentation had about 5 minutes of interesting 
information -- which was on the last slide.  The remainder of the 
presentation was a sales pitch, which is lost on techies, who usually do 
not have actual purchasing authority.  We want neat technical hacks, not 
reasons to spend money.

Sam'l B.

David Alban wrote:

>Yes!  I'm glad my inside voice didn't make it "outside" last night.
>
>Perhaps, for those folks who might perceive this as a limitation on
>creativity/speech/etc., a compromise, voluntarily self-imposed by
>willing individuals, might be:  everyone limit yourself to one,
>simple, easy-to-communicate, non-compound question without follow-ups,
>before the presentation is over, then go nuts.
>
>On 1/27/06, Danny Howard <dannyman at toldme.com> wrote:
>  
>
>>while I found the presentation
>>engaging, I had this growing desire to jump up on the desk and yell at
>>everyone to just shut up for half an hour and let the guy present ...
>>but that would have been overly stereotypical SysAdmin behaviour, which
>>would have defeated the point.  And while I would have phrased my
>>suggestion that everyone shut up politely, I didn't want to be the
>>guy-who-never-shows-up-then-proposes-that-BayLISA-change-its-format-halfway-through-the-presentation.
>>    
>>
>
>--
>Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors.
>
>  
>


From bill at wards.net  Fri Jan 27 21:24:27 2006
From: bill at wards.net (Bill Ward)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 21:24:27 -0800
Subject: Google Ops Presentation and Meeting Formats
In-Reply-To: <p062309bec000479d6df5@66.92.48.19>
References: <20060127175301.GX9258@ratchet.nebcorp.com>
	 <p062309bec000479d6df5@66.92.48.19>
Message-ID: <3d2fe1780601272124p2c8a65ddnbec3737ec1173d34@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/27/06, Brent Chapman <Brent at greatcircle.com> wrote:
> Speaking as someone who has presented at BayLISA many times: yes,
> they usually go like that if the speaker doesn't take (and keep) firm
> control.

Not all speakers are assertive enough to do that, unfortunately.

--
Help bring back the San Jose Earthquakes - http://www.soccersiliconvalley.com/



From dannyman at toldme.com  Fri Jan 27 22:17:26 2006
From: dannyman at toldme.com (Danny Howard)
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 22:17:26 -0800
Subject: Google Ops Presentation and Meeting Formats
In-Reply-To: <p062309cbc0007483f3ea@[66.92.48.19]>
References: <43daaa42.0a10512a.621a.29d7@mx.gmail.com> <p062309c3c0005de2a629@[66.92.48.19]> <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271553090.28989@slick.sigje.org> <p062309c9c00072d18e18@[66.92.48.19]> <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271706070.28989@slick.sigje.org> <p062309cbc0007483f3ea@[66.92.48.19]>
Message-ID: <20060128061726.GD9258@ratchet.nebcorp.com>

On Fri, Jan 27, 2006 at 05:36:52PM -0800, Brent Chapman wrote:
> At 5:07 PM -0800 1/27/06, Alan Horn wrote:
> >On Fri, 27 Jan 2006, Brent Chapman wrote:
> >>
> >>From my point of view, both of them ended up rushing through the 
> >>last 1/2 to 1/3 of their presentations, which is usually the most 
> >>interesting parts, because they got held up in the introductory 
> >>stuff in the beginning.
> >>
> >
> >But honestly Brent, thats the speaker's issue to solve. We may have 
> >to agree to disagree on this point if you don't see it that way.
> 
> Yes, it is the speaker's issue to solve, but it is a failing of the 
> organizer if the speaker _isn't_ solving it.  The speakers should be 
> briefed before-hand on what sort of audience this is and how to 
> handle them (were they?), and the organizer should be ready and 
> willing to step in during the presentation when things seem to be 
> getting extremely bogged down (as they were last night).

Also, the audience shouldn't suck.

Seriously, that's part of my thing with starting this thread ... the
guilty parties on here on the list, right?

The presenter could have done a better job of wrangling a difficult
audience, but even more important, he should have something interesting
to say.

The MC could have done a better job reading the situation and wrangling,
like the presenter, but even more important, they made sure the event
happened on time, in venue, videotape, etc.

The audience ... let's see.  They show up, they snack, they pay their
dues ... gee ... and they could maybe try to respect everyone's time so
that collectively they gain a reputation as a good audience, who merit
the time and attention of presenters and MCs.

:)

So ... I mean, everyone gets some responsibility, but since we're here
on the baylisa list, let's start at home, right?  I felt bad for showing
up late, and for ducking out early, and for developing a private
animosity towards others in the group ... 

Anyway ... weekend time.

-danny


From michael at halligan.org  Sun Jan 29 01:49:08 2006
From: michael at halligan.org (Michael T. Halligan)
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 01:49:08 -0800
Subject: [baylisa] Google Ops Presentation and Meeting Formats
In-Reply-To: <4c714a9c0601271033n614adf4fve6cc299d2715060@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20060127175301.GX9258@ratchet.nebcorp.com> <4c714a9c0601271033n614adf4fve6cc299d2715060@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BB1A9A19-46CD-4DED-A293-406F02A1E150@halligan.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

This exact sentiment is why I do not go to BayLisa meetings.  It's  
embarassing. The last time I came,
I brought 8 friends & colleagues with me, for Brent's speech on  
Incidient Command for IT. Every 5 seconds
somebody was interrupting to ask about ham radio or some other  
irrelevant tech.

Ladies & gentlemen, when somebody is speaking, you shut up, and  
listen to them. Did your parents ever
teach you how to be polite, and not to interrupt?

On Jan 27, 2006, at 10:33 AM, David Alban wrote:

> Yes!  I'm glad my inside voice didn't make it "outside" last night.
>
> Perhaps, for those folks who might perceive this as a limitation on
> creativity/speech/etc., a compromise, voluntarily self-imposed by
> willing individuals, might be:  everyone limit yourself to one,
> simple, easy-to-communicate, non-compound question without follow-ups,
> before the presentation is over, then go nuts.
>
> On 1/27/06, Danny Howard <dannyman at toldme.com> wrote:
>> while I found the presentation
>> engaging, I had this growing desire to jump up on the desk and  
>> yell at
>> everyone to just shut up for half an hour and let the guy present ...
>> but that would have been overly stereotypical SysAdmin behaviour,  
>> which
>> would have defeated the point.  And while I would have phrased my
>> suggestion that everyone shut up politely, I didn't want to be the
>> guy-who-never-shows-up-then-proposes-that-BayLISA-change-its- 
>> format-halfway-through-the-presentation.
>
> --
> Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors.
>

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Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin)

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=EPQL
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From steve at luminareconsulting.com  Sun Jan 29 19:33:44 2006
From: steve at luminareconsulting.com (steve)
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 19:33:44 -0800
Subject: Google white papers
In-Reply-To: <20060127175301.GX9258@ratchet.nebcorp.com>
References: <20060127175301.GX9258@ratchet.nebcorp.com>
Message-ID: <43DD8918.2090902@luminareconsulting.com>

These were referenced verbally in the talks.  Much more informative...

http://www.cs.rochester.edu/sosp2003/papers/p125-ghemawat.pdf
SOSP2003 - Sanjay Ghemawat, Howard Gobioff, Shun-Tak Leung 2003

The Anatomy of a Large-Scale Hypertextual Web Search Engine
http://www-db.stanford.edu/~backrub/google.html
Sergey Brin, Lawrence Page

-steve


From jeff at drinktomi.com  Mon Jan 30 10:22:17 2006
From: jeff at drinktomi.com (Jeff With The Big Yellow Suit)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 10:22:17 -0800
Subject: Google Ops Presentation and Meeting Formats
In-Reply-To: <43da9b77.2dd5d3b6.5e3c.ffffaae4@mx.gmail.com>
References: <43da9b77.2dd5d3b6.5e3c.ffffaae4@mx.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8772413951275d5e9d897b42882c2eda@drinktomi.com>

I suggest positioning goons on both sides of the proscenium.  The goons
will be armed with nerf weapons of some sort.  At any point the speaker 
or
EC can motion the goons into action.  The goons will proceed to bludgeon
the source of interruption into submission.   After one or two public
humiliations the audience will be more respectful.

-jeff




From rick at linuxmafia.com  Mon Jan 30 10:59:57 2006
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 10:59:57 -0800
Subject: Google Ops Presentation and Meeting Formats
In-Reply-To: <0eed07b0df8340615056ac00141f1306@controltier.com>
References: <43daaa42.0a10512a.621a.29d7@mx.gmail.com> <p062309c3c0005de2a629@[66.92.48.19]> <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271553090.28989@slick.sigje.org> <p062309c9c00072d18e18@[66.92.48.19]> <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271706070.28989@slick.sigje.org> <0eed07b0df8340615056ac00141f1306@controltier.com>
Message-ID: <20060130185957.GN29069@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Damon Edwards (damon at controltier.com):

> That's a tough order putting room discipline on the shoulders of the 
> speaker. You have to remember that the speakers are invited by the 
> group... therefore, they would probably feel that they are being rude 
> if they go against what the group seems to want.

Yes.  Also, the speaker is usually focussed on his/her presentation, and
not watching the clock.  This is why it's handy to have someone prepared
to lightly step in as needed, in the role of emcee / meeting moderator.

> Isn't it really up to the group to decide what they want from the 
> presentations and inform the speakers of the expectations or format?

In my experience, some speakers have strong preferences as to the nature
of audience interaction.  It seems a small thing to indulge, within time
constraints -- though the group can of course suggest a default.




From lanning at lanning.cc  Mon Jan 30 11:10:23 2006
From: lanning at lanning.cc (Robert Hajime Lanning)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:10:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Google Ops Presentation and Meeting Formats
In-Reply-To: <8772413951275d5e9d897b42882c2eda@drinktomi.com>
References: <43da9b77.2dd5d3b6.5e3c.ffffaae4@mx.gmail.com>
    <8772413951275d5e9d897b42882c2eda@drinktomi.com>
Message-ID: <34243.192.168.128.67.1138648223.squirrel@ssl.monsoonwind.com>


<quote who="Jeff With The Big Yellow Suit">
> I suggest positioning goons on both sides of the proscenium.
> The goons will be armed with nerf weapons of some sort.  At
> any point the speaker or EC can motion the goons into action.
> The goons will proceed to bludgeon the source of interruption
> into submission.   After one or two public humiliations the
> audience will be more respectful.

I love it!  I even have two nerf weapons to donate to the cause!

-- 
And, did Guloka think the Ulus were too ugly to save?
                                         -Centauri



From sigje at sigje.org  Mon Jan 30 11:17:51 2006
From: sigje at sigje.org (Jennifer Davis)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:17:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Google Ops Presentation and Meeting Formats
In-Reply-To: <8772413951275d5e9d897b42882c2eda@drinktomi.com>
References: <43da9b77.2dd5d3b6.5e3c.ffffaae4@mx.gmail.com>
 <8772413951275d5e9d897b42882c2eda@drinktomi.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601301112480.29188@slick.sigje.org>

> I suggest positioning goons on both sides of the proscenium.  The goons
> will be armed with nerf weapons of some sort.  At any point the speaker or
> EC can motion the goons into action.  The goons will proceed to bludgeon
> the source of interruption into submission.   After one or two public
> humiliations the audience will be more respectful.

<nonserious>
Jeff I expect you to show up at the next meeting and serve in this 
capacity.
</nonserious>

Jeff, please do come to the next meeting.  The more people we have in the 
audience that are well behaved that can influence the rest the better.

Would an announcement at the beginning of the meeting help?  "Please be 
aware that although your question may be really of interest to you, if it 
doesn't have anything to do with the topic please hold it til the speaker 
is taking questions at the end or in the time after the meeting where 
people can talk to the speaker."

Should there be a notice of some sort to the meeting RSVP? or on the 
website?

Jennifer


From bill at wards.net  Mon Jan 30 11:25:33 2006
From: bill at wards.net (Bill Ward)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:25:33 -0800
Subject: Google Ops Presentation and Meeting Formats
In-Reply-To: <20060130185957.GN29069@linuxmafia.com>
References: <43daaa42.0a10512a.621a.29d7@mx.gmail.com>
	 <p062309c3c0005de2a629@66.92.48.19>
	 <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271553090.28989@slick.sigje.org>
	 <p062309c9c00072d18e18@66.92.48.19>
	 <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601271706070.28989@slick.sigje.org>
	 <0eed07b0df8340615056ac00141f1306@controltier.com>
	 <20060130185957.GN29069@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <3d2fe1780601301125y7db99e81mcf840426f0737edd@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/30/06, Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:
> Quoting Damon Edwards (damon at controltier.com):
>
> > That's a tough order putting room discipline on the shoulders of the
> > speaker. You have to remember that the speakers are invited by the
> > group... therefore, they would probably feel that they are being rude
> > if they go against what the group seems to want.
>
> Yes.  Also, the speaker is usually focussed on his/her presentation, and
> not watching the clock.  This is why it's handy to have someone prepared
> to lightly step in as needed, in the role of emcee / meeting moderator.

If you really want to guarantee speakers don't go over, you could have
someone in the front row whose job is to watch the clock and signal to
the speaker via a small sign or something that they have 15, 5, 0
minutes left.

> > Isn't it really up to the group to decide what they want from the
> > presentations and inform the speakers of the expectations or format?
>
> In my experience, some speakers have strong preferences as to the nature
> of audience interaction.  It seems a small thing to indulge, within time
> constraints -- though the group can of course suggest a default.

IME, most speakers have no preference or defer to the group's
preference, and when they do care, it's usually to hold questions to
the end.  But you're right that it never hurts to ask.

--
Help bring back the San Jose Earthquakes - http://www.soccersiliconvalley.com/



From sigje at sigje.org  Mon Jan 30 11:26:36 2006
From: sigje at sigje.org (Jennifer Davis)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:26:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: member service & volunteer projects
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.63.0601301117540.29188@slick.sigje.org>


New member service in the works for a shell account, and/or email address. 
We don't want to use @baylisa.org mailing addresses.  We are taking 
suggestions for possible useful domains.  Please send all suggestions to 
blw at baylisa.org.  (do check to see if the domain is available please :)

The election committee is reviewing the methods for election currently, 
examining the problems inherent with our current system.  If you are 
interested in volunteering for this committee contact the chair, Alan Horn 
ahorn at deorth.org.


Jennifer


From extasia at extasia.org  Tue Jan 31 11:36:16 2006
From: extasia at extasia.org (David Alban)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:36:16 -0800
Subject: Google slides / audio / video
Message-ID: <4c714a9c0601311136x1cb4ba97m1579a8c32df42d19@mail.gmail.com>

Greetings,

Will the slides from the Google SRE presentation will be made
available to us?  Also, for whom was the recording (video?) made?

Thanks,
David
--
Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors.
http://extasia.org/resume/



From dannyman at toldme.com  Tue Jan 31 12:55:56 2006
From: dannyman at toldme.com (Danny Howard)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 12:55:56 -0800
Subject: Google slides / audio / video
In-Reply-To: <4c714a9c0601311136x1cb4ba97m1579a8c32df42d19@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4c714a9c0601311136x1cb4ba97m1579a8c32df42d19@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060131205556.GM9258@ratchet.nebcorp.com>

On Tue, Jan 31, 2006 at 11:36:16AM -0800, David Alban wrote:
> Greetings,
> 
> Will the slides from the Google SRE presentation will be made
> available to us?  Also, for whom was the recording (video?) made?

It should eventually be here:

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=baylisa