From michael at halligan.org Thu Jun 3 11:40:48 2004 From: michael at halligan.org (Michael T. Halligan) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 11:40:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Datacenter tools? Message-ID: My ops director has a good-sized chunk of cash in our budget marked aside for "Datacenter tools". I was wondering what people like to keep on their datacenter for such things. So far, we have : - Plantronics Industrial noise-canceling phono dual-ear headset, with connectors for the 3 different types of cell phones our ops people use, and one portable phone we keep in a cabinet. - Power convertors for the 3 different types of cell phones - anti-static straps in each cabinet - assorted sizes Velcro cable ties, as well as nylon zip ties - 1 APC Environmental Monitoring Unit in each cabinet - 1 Laptop in each cabinet with serial connections and adapters for 3 different types of serial connections - Ethereal & Minicom installed, as well as a web browser - Patch panel for laptop with 3 network connections (one for each subnet) - Assorted tools (punchdown, cable cutters, screwdrivers, wrenches (for adjusting cabinets), several paper-clips (APCs have very tiny reset buttons if they trip) - Roll of quarters for vending machine - One cold-spare for every classification of server, including load balancers, switches, firewalls - 4U chatsworth locking drawers in every cabinet to keep spare parts and - Cold spares for anything that we could imagine will break (CPU, memory, different sizes of hot-swap drives, raid cards, PDUs (very helpful, just had a PDU fail on us yesterday), GBICs, we've even got a spare 1U USR tray of fans in case one of ours fails. - Paper & pens - 2 Label makers, with extra tape - Post-its - Multimeter - Extra cables of all types (serial, scsi, cat5, cat5 crossover) - Power tester - Ethernet link checker - Floor panel lifters - Foldup nylon chair - 2 Keyboards & Mice (less important since our datacenter provides rolling carts) It sounds a bit cluttered, but we have 2 cabinets dedicated for testing environment and management tools, and production in other cabinets, eventually we'll have 2 cabinets solely for testing, and one for management). We've tried to make everything as remotely manageable a possible. Everything sits on a remote serial console, as well as a remote reboot switch. Our datacenter has a staffed 24x7 NOC that will change tapes, sit down at a terminal to read errors and type commands, as well as reboot boxes. We've also made everything redundant as possible, having everything that's not using our clustering utilities have a hot-spare (vrrp for network gear, LVS for servers). We've also setup automatic rebuild scripts for all of our servers, so we can kickstart or systemimage through a serial console. My goal is to eliminate trips to the dc as much as possible, but making sure we have every tool we need in case of any unforseen failure. Some of the proposed new tools have been : - 1 AXIS network camera per cabinet (the kind that pan, so we can potentially look at blinkys, as well as who's accessing) - Fluke network debuggers Does anybody else have any other good ideas for tools to keep in the datacenter? From rsr at inorganic.org Thu Jun 3 12:27:29 2004 From: rsr at inorganic.org (Roy S. Rapoport) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 12:27:29 -0700 Subject: Datacenter tools? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040603192729.GB22805@puppy.inorganic.org> On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 11:40:48AM -0700, Michael T. Halligan wrote: > - 1 AXIS network camera per cabinet (the kind that pan, so we can > potentially look at blinkys, as well as who's accessing) > - Fluke network debuggers One thing to keep in mind is that at this point, you're pretty much in toyland. You've already got the basic tools you need. That said, I'd say that: 1. I'm fond of having lots of RJ45-DB9 and RJ45-DB25 adapters on-hand in case I need to custom-make a cable; and because of that, I'm also fond of having a cable tester (mine was called 'PC Cable Tester' and could map pretty much any non-SCSI, non-fiber cable I've got -- DB9, DB25, RJ45, RJ11, USB, FW, DB15, etc etc etc) 2. I'm fond of having a CD player with decent speakers in the datacenter; 3. I'm not sure what, these days, the Fluke netdebuggers can give you that a laptop with decent OSS tools on it couldn't. -roy From alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com Thu Jun 3 12:46:49 2004 From: alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com (Alvin Oga) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 12:46:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Datacenter tools? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: hi ya michael i'd add more stuff if possible: - webcam so people can remotely see the messages of whats on the screen - cart w/ keyboard, good svga monitor - boot up cdroms, floppies and spare drives - add usb bootups too ( boot cd for each kernel and fs and hardware you have ) ( kernel versions has to match the emergency boot cd's ) - spare 40GB - 100GB disks ( of the ones installed in the systems ) - good set of screw drivers vs "cheap stuff" - magnetic screw drivers if you're gutsy - power screw drivers - lots of spare power cords and cat cables and hubbs - always seem to be last one was used last time and you forgot to bring more in c ya alvin On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Michael T. Halligan wrote: > My ops director has a good-sized chunk of cash in our budget > marked aside for "Datacenter tools". I was wondering what people like > to keep on their datacenter for such things. > > So far, we have : > > - Plantronics Industrial noise-canceling phono dual-ear headset, > with connectors for the 3 different types of cell phones our ops > people use, and one portable phone we keep in a cabinet. ... long list From rsr at inorganic.org Thu Jun 3 13:17:11 2004 From: rsr at inorganic.org (Roy S. Rapoport) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 13:17:11 -0700 Subject: Datacenter tools? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040603201711.GA25922@puppy.inorganic.org> On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 12:46:49PM -0700, Alvin Oga wrote: > - webcam so people can remotely see the messages of whats on the screen Alternatively, a nice enough console system so you actually get to see what's been on console (my console server at home has a 64K buffer for each serial line -- when you connect to a system, you get to see the last page of output, but you can go back much further). -toy From marco at escape.org Thu Jun 3 13:53:09 2004 From: marco at escape.org (Marco Nicosia) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 13:53:09 -0700 Subject: Datacenter tools? In-Reply-To: <20040603201711.GA25922@puppy.inorganic.org>; from rsr@inorganic.org on Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 01:17:11PM -0700 References: <20040603201711.GA25922@puppy.inorganic.org> Message-ID: <20040603135309.Q1120@escape.org> Who is '-toy' and why is he posting on our list? Maybe we have a new nickname for RSR... True enough about logging console servers, but, those Axis Pan-Tilt-Zoom webcams are fantastic! We have a half a dozen installed in our facility, and we use them all the time. They're indispensible for things like, "What IS the label on that server!?" and when a tech is on the line, "NO! NOT THAT SERVER!" -- Marco Roy S. Rapoport (rsr at inorganic.org) wrote: > On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 12:46:49PM -0700, Alvin Oga wrote: > > - webcam so people can remotely see the messages of whats on the screen > > Alternatively, a nice enough console system so you actually get to see > what's been on console (my console server at home has a 64K buffer for each > serial line -- when you connect to a system, you get to see the last page > of output, but you can go back much further). > > -toy _______________________________________________________________________ Marco E. Nicosia | http://www.escape.org/~marco/ | marco at escape.org From chuck+baylisa at snew.com Thu Jun 3 14:49:35 2004 From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 17:49:35 -0400 Subject: YOST wiring (was Re: Datacenter tools?) Message-ID: <20040603214935.GA28619@2004.snew.com> Ok, I'm going to share my happy wiring experience. Just because I want to. A visit to the recently found joys of Yost Wiring. (google for it). Wiring scheme by Dave Yost that I've thought was fine and good,but had no opportunity to really USE until recently. Running wires from machine THIS to modem or other machine THERE and finding the x-overs or gender changers - we've all done it and, in a pinch, the stuff you need is missing. At work we have terminal crash carts, but most of the CPUs have RJ45 adapters SCREWED hard on them and the terminals have DB25s. So I got the stuff to fix that (20 minutes of work after franticly unscrewing the connector and cursing the person who did the 80% job). Now I'm in the process, at home, of wiring the cabinet - terminal server and machines to use YOST wired serial cables. As in datacenters, all the serial and network cables go to a patch panel. Perhaps one panel per 4-5 cabinets. I run bundles of 4 CAT5s to a few places in the cabinet. Different colors boots on them (red/green/blue/purple). ALL the serial ports that are DB25/DE9 have an adapter screwed on making them YOST wired. All of these get a CAT5 to the patch, labels and they needn't move. Computer serial ports? Modem? To patch panel. Weather station? Patch panel. Serial digital IO device that reads sensors and turns on the sprinklers? Patch panel. No more scrambling for that M-M changer for the Sparc 20 or a DE9 -> DB25 that's ALWAYS got the wrong sex on it. A 4" RJ45 plug -> RJ45 socket adapts the netra and another box to YOST wiring (at 9600 baud, maintaining CAT5 twists is kinda moot in that 4" frankenstein). Short and clearly an adapter. I'm still making the wires to run the all the Annex TS ports to the YOST panel. I've got 8, enough for now. In the end, I use a flat "flip over" RJ45 wire at the patch to wire things together. The YOST glory is that ALL The devices at the panel are the same. I can wire a modem to another modem with the same wire that I do computer -> modem. Key: NO THINKING REQUIRED. So I have the weather station (RS232 DCE) and several serial temp probes, a terminal and a FAX modem and 2 serial ports per machine on the patch panel. I will have 16 Annex ports on the patch panel. I usually just wire from TServer <-> computer console. My weather station software isn't liking the TS yet, so it's just on TTYB of a machine, via the panel. EVERYTHING uses an 8" blue "cisco console" cable. When I need the terminal on the Sun directly, I patch it. Otherwise it's into the Annex. Again, in the heat of crap going wrong, the "no thinking" patch cable is best. On another patch panel, is network. Both ends CLEARLY marked. But once the machine is in and wired, it's pretty moot. (My home is an odd situation with machines passing through). From chuck+baylisa at snew.com Thu Jun 3 14:54:59 2004 From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 17:54:59 -0400 Subject: Datacenter tools? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040603215459.GB28619@2004.snew.com> Quoting Alvin Oga (alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com): > - webcam so people can remotely see the messages of whats on the screen Well, for this we have invented conserver. (better is a cyclades) We have one machine running conserver which holds the consoles open; it LOGS what's on the consoles (so mr swatch can help out) and lets people SHARE viewing the console. > - cart w/ keyboard, good svga monitor Actually, I was noting the lack of a TERMINAL. A basic Wyse60 is killer to have. > - good set of screw drivers vs "cheap stuff" And a whole lot of the cheap ones. It's always nice to have one of those jeweler sized little screw drivers and having 10 around means they don't walk, if they do you care less. > - magnetic screw drivers if you're gutsy Never. > - power screw drivers Often. Cheap and slow (I carry my makita sometimes, but the B&D ones are slow, but fast enough for a 3/4" rack screw and won't walk). We also have a large rolling toolchest filled with the rack screws (lighter metal than the rack - strip a $0.05 screw, not a rack thread) and odd little clips we need for our racks. Along with toners and flukes and 4 or 5 screw drivers. From sandy at wambold.com Thu Jun 3 15:47:39 2004 From: sandy at wambold.com (Sandy Wambold) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 15:47:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Datacenter tools? In-Reply-To: <20040603215459.GB28619@2004.snew.com> References: <20040603215459.GB28619@2004.snew.com> Message-ID: - cable ties Labelling stuff: - permanent markers - stickers - CD markers (don't use the permanent markers, I've killed CDs with them) - a labeling machine. I so love labeled equipment. -sew From woolsey at jlw.com Thu Jun 3 16:14:23 2004 From: woolsey at jlw.com (Jeff Woolsey) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 16:14:23 -0700 Subject: YOST wiring (was Re: Datacenter tools?) In-Reply-To: Message from Chuck Yerkes of "Thu, 03 Jun 2004 17:49:35 EDT." <20040603214935.GA28619@2004.snew.com> Message-ID: <200406032314.i53NENld028011@arglebargle.jlw.com> chuck+baylisa at snew.com said: > In the end, I use a flat "flip over" RJ45 wire at the patch to wire > things together. The YOST glory is that ALL The devices at the panel > are the same. I can wire a modem to another modem with the same wire > that I do computer -> modem. Key: NO THINKING REQUIRED. Fiber ought to be installed like that, too. At a place I worked recently, their main campus datacenter was remodeled and fiber went everywhere, in LC connectors. Generally (mostly true with FC-AL HBAs of the 2Gb variety) fiber gigabit can be connected face-to-face with a single cable, because it's crossover. Unfortunately, the patch panels were wired straight, and until we realized this we were blaming the cables when everything was solid and still no link, and taking apart half of the SC duplexors (and even some of the LC!) so we could connect them the other way and get link. Thus, everything should be crossover so there's only one kind of cable (modulo SC-LC conversion), and everything is an odd number of connections so it's still net crossover. I suppose nobody thought that the vendor could install things in the pessimal way, or that the plans we made could have overlooked this detail (I just don't know.). Fixing it now, of course, means fixing half the cable plant (since it's about 30% used), moving everything over to it with lots and lots of tiny network outages (some triggering failovers), and then doing the other half (moving back is optional). Not My Problem anymore... $job[-2] we wired up a small machine room with Cat-5 everywhere. I had the installers give me one row per IDF of just crossovers, so that they would be there if we need them, and I could abolish actual crossover cables and have only straight (since hubs and switches are, er, DCE, and computers are all DTE, so to speak) ones. The Holy Grail is avoiding cases where equipment A and B work when connected with one cable, and don't when using a physically-identical (i.e. it fits) twin. USB and FireWire are different kettles of fish, lacking such twins. If it connects, it works (but that dang symmetrical shell on the host-end of USB drives me nuts). -- Jeff Woolsey {woolsey,jlw}@{jlw,jxh}.com "A toy robot!!!!" -unlucky Japanese scientist "And Leon's getting laaaarrger!" -Johnny "Delete! Delete! OK!" -Dr. Bronner on disk space management "I didn't get a 'Harrumph!' out of _that_ guy." -Gov Le Petomaine From dmack at leviatron.com Thu Jun 3 16:50:45 2004 From: dmack at leviatron.com (Dave Mack) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 16:50:45 -0700 Subject: Datacenter tools? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40BFB955.9050800@leviatron.com> Genie Lift GL-8 with load platform and ladder. Allows one person to rack-mount equipment weighing up to about 400 lbs up to shoulder-height. The integral ladder makes it easy to work at the top of racks or in cable trays. Avoid the "straddle" base - too wide for easy maneuvering in data center aisles. Also, don't believe too much about the maximum claimed height the lift will reach - you can't attach the load platform when the forks are inverted and the bare inverted forks don't provide a horizontal plane for lifting things. Takes up about as much floor space as a rack but fits nicely in the "untouchable" zone beside the PDU. http://www.genielift.com/ml-series/ml-1-3.asp No, I don't work for 'em. Dave Mack Michael T. Halligan wrote: >My ops director has a good-sized chunk of cash in our budget >marked aside for "Datacenter tools". I was wondering what people like >to keep on their datacenter for such things. > >So far, we have : > >- Plantronics Industrial noise-canceling phono dual-ear headset, > with connectors for the 3 different types of cell phones our ops > people use, and one portable phone we keep in a cabinet. >- Power convertors for the 3 different types of cell phones >- anti-static straps in each cabinet >- assorted sizes Velcro cable ties, as well as nylon zip ties >- 1 APC Environmental Monitoring Unit in each cabinet >- 1 Laptop in each cabinet with serial connections and adapters for > 3 different types of serial connections >- Ethereal & Minicom installed, as well as a web browser >- Patch panel for laptop with 3 network connections (one for each > subnet) >- Assorted tools (punchdown, cable cutters, screwdrivers, wrenches (for > adjusting cabinets), several paper-clips (APCs have very tiny reset > buttons if they trip) >- Roll of quarters for vending machine >- One cold-spare for every classification of server, including load > balancers, switches, firewalls >- 4U chatsworth locking drawers in every cabinet to keep spare parts and >- Cold spares for anything that we could imagine will break (CPU, > memory, different sizes of hot-swap drives, raid cards, PDUs (very > helpful, just had a PDU fail on us yesterday), GBICs, we've even got a spare > 1U USR tray of fans in case one of ours fails. >- Paper & pens >- 2 Label makers, with extra tape >- Post-its >- Multimeter >- Extra cables of all types (serial, scsi, cat5, cat5 crossover) >- Power tester >- Ethernet link checker >- Floor panel lifters >- Foldup nylon chair >- 2 Keyboards & Mice (less important since our datacenter provides > rolling carts) > >It sounds a bit cluttered, but we have 2 cabinets dedicated for testing >environment and management tools, and production in other cabinets, >eventually we'll have 2 cabinets solely for testing, and one for >management). > >We've tried to make everything as remotely manageable a possible. >Everything sits on a remote serial console, as well as a remote >reboot switch. Our datacenter has a staffed 24x7 NOC that will change >tapes, sit down at a terminal to read errors and type commands, as well >as reboot boxes. > >We've also made everything redundant as possible, having everything >that's not using our clustering utilities have a hot-spare (vrrp for >network gear, LVS for servers). We've also setup automatic rebuild >scripts for all of our servers, so we can kickstart or systemimage >through a serial console. > >My goal is to eliminate trips to the dc as much as possible, but making >sure we have every tool we need in case of any unforseen failure. > >Some of the proposed new tools have been : > > - 1 AXIS network camera per cabinet (the kind that pan, so we can > potentially look at blinkys, as well as who's accessing) > - Fluke network debuggers > > >Does anybody else have any other good ideas for tools to keep in the datacenter? > > > > > > > From michael at halligan.org Thu Jun 3 17:07:10 2004 From: michael at halligan.org (Michael T. Halligan) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 17:07:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Datacenter tools? In-Reply-To: <40BFB955.9050800@leviatron.com> Message-ID: Grr. I've had designs to do build and patent something just like this for a year now. *grumbles* That's awesome though! On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Dave Mack wrote: > Genie Lift GL-8 with load platform and ladder. Allows one person to > rack-mount equipment weighing up to about 400 lbs up to shoulder-height. > The integral ladder makes it easy to work at the top of racks or in > cable trays. Avoid the "straddle" base - too wide for easy maneuvering > in data center aisles. Also, don't believe too much about the maximum > claimed height the lift will reach - you can't attach the load platform > when the forks are inverted and the bare inverted forks don't provide a > horizontal plane for lifting things. > > Takes up about as much floor space as a rack but fits nicely in the > "untouchable" zone beside the PDU. > > http://www.genielift.com/ml-series/ml-1-3.asp > > No, I don't work for 'em. > > Dave Mack > > Michael T. Halligan wrote: > > >My ops director has a good-sized chunk of cash in our budget > >marked aside for "Datacenter tools". I was wondering what people like > >to keep on their datacenter for such things. > > > >So far, we have : > > > >- Plantronics Industrial noise-canceling phono dual-ear headset, > > with connectors for the 3 different types of cell phones our ops > > people use, and one portable phone we keep in a cabinet. > >- Power convertors for the 3 different types of cell phones > >- anti-static straps in each cabinet > >- assorted sizes Velcro cable ties, as well as nylon zip ties > >- 1 APC Environmental Monitoring Unit in each cabinet > >- 1 Laptop in each cabinet with serial connections and adapters for > > 3 different types of serial connections > >- Ethereal & Minicom installed, as well as a web browser > >- Patch panel for laptop with 3 network connections (one for each > > subnet) > >- Assorted tools (punchdown, cable cutters, screwdrivers, wrenches (for > > adjusting cabinets), several paper-clips (APCs have very tiny reset > > buttons if they trip) > >- Roll of quarters for vending machine > >- One cold-spare for every classification of server, including load > > balancers, switches, firewalls > >- 4U chatsworth locking drawers in every cabinet to keep spare parts and > >- Cold spares for anything that we could imagine will break (CPU, > > memory, different sizes of hot-swap drives, raid cards, PDUs (very > > helpful, just had a PDU fail on us yesterday), GBICs, we've even got a spare > > 1U USR tray of fans in case one of ours fails. > >- Paper & pens > >- 2 Label makers, with extra tape > >- Post-its > >- Multimeter > >- Extra cables of all types (serial, scsi, cat5, cat5 crossover) > >- Power tester > >- Ethernet link checker > >- Floor panel lifters > >- Foldup nylon chair > >- 2 Keyboards & Mice (less important since our datacenter provides > > rolling carts) > > > >It sounds a bit cluttered, but we have 2 cabinets dedicated for testing > >environment and management tools, and production in other cabinets, > >eventually we'll have 2 cabinets solely for testing, and one for > >management). > > > >We've tried to make everything as remotely manageable a possible. > >Everything sits on a remote serial console, as well as a remote > >reboot switch. Our datacenter has a staffed 24x7 NOC that will change > >tapes, sit down at a terminal to read errors and type commands, as well > >as reboot boxes. > > > >We've also made everything redundant as possible, having everything > >that's not using our clustering utilities have a hot-spare (vrrp for > >network gear, LVS for servers). We've also setup automatic rebuild > >scripts for all of our servers, so we can kickstart or systemimage > >through a serial console. > > > >My goal is to eliminate trips to the dc as much as possible, but making > >sure we have every tool we need in case of any unforseen failure. > > > >Some of the proposed new tools have been : > > > > - 1 AXIS network camera per cabinet (the kind that pan, so we can > > potentially look at blinkys, as well as who's accessing) > > - Fluke network debuggers > > > > > >Does anybody else have any other good ideas for tools to keep in the datacenter? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- ------------------- Michael T. Halligan Chief Geek Halligan Infrastructure Designs. http://www.halligan.org/ 3158 Mission St. #3 San Francisco, CA 94110 (415) 724.7998 - Mobile From ddowdle at leopard.net Fri Jun 4 15:38:11 2004 From: ddowdle at leopard.net (David M. Dowdle) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 15:38:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Datacenter tools? In-Reply-To: <40BFB955.9050800@leviatron.com> References: <40BFB955.9050800@leviatron.com> Message-ID: Trashcan, preferabbly 50 gal. From deirdre at deirdre.net Fri Jun 4 15:48:55 2004 From: deirdre at deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse Moen) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 15:48:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Datacenter tools? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Jun 2004, David M. Dowdle wrote: > Trashcan, preferabbly 50 gal. Fishbowl to put in older computers that look impressive but are no longer useful. I recommend an early RS-6000 for this. -- _Deirdre http://deirdre.net "Ideally pacing should look like the stock market for the year 1999, up and up and up, but with lots of little dips downwards...." -- Wen Spencer on plotting a novel From michael at halligan.org Fri Jun 4 23:28:48 2004 From: michael at halligan.org (Michael T. Halligan) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 23:28:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Datacenter tools? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: To get rid of the Dell hardware? :) > > Trashcan, preferabbly 50 gal. > > > -- ------------------- Michael T. Halligan Chief Geek Halligan Infrastructure Designs. http://www.halligan.org/ 3158 Mission St. #3 San Francisco, CA 94110 (415) 724.7998 - Mobile From ddowdle at leopard.net Sat Jun 5 14:43:18 2004 From: ddowdle at leopard.net (David M. Dowdle) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 14:43:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Datacenter tools? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Obviously you consider a trashcan a joke. So, where do you put bad cables, old packing materials, etc? On Fri, 4 Jun 2004, Deirdre Saoirse Moen wrote: > On Fri, 4 Jun 2004, David M. Dowdle wrote: > > > Trashcan, preferabbly 50 gal. > > Fishbowl to put in older computers that look impressive but are no longer > useful. I recommend an early RS-6000 for this. > > -- > _Deirdre http://deirdre.net > "Ideally pacing should look like the stock market for the year 1999, up > and up and up, but with lots of little dips downwards...." > -- Wen Spencer on plotting a novel > From michael at halligan.org Sat Jun 5 15:49:34 2004 From: michael at halligan.org (Michael T. Halligan) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 15:49:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Datacenter tools? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In my datacenteR? The shipping and receiving room. > Obviously you consider a trashcan a joke. So, where do you put bad cables, > old packing materials, etc? > > On Fri, 4 Jun 2004, Deirdre Saoirse Moen wrote: > > > On Fri, 4 Jun 2004, David M. Dowdle wrote: > > > > > Trashcan, preferabbly 50 gal. > > > > Fishbowl to put in older computers that look impressive but are no longer > > useful. I recommend an early RS-6000 for this. > > > > -- > > _Deirdre http://deirdre.net > > "Ideally pacing should look like the stock market for the year 1999, up > > and up and up, but with lots of little dips downwards...." > > -- Wen Spencer on plotting a novel -- ------------------- Michael T. Halligan Chief Geek Halligan Infrastructure Designs. http://www.halligan.org/ 3158 Mission St. #3 San Francisco, CA 94110 (415) 724.7998 - Mobile From rsr at inorganic.org Sat Jun 5 15:53:06 2004 From: rsr at inorganic.org (Roy S. Rapoport) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 15:53:06 -0700 Subject: Datacenter tools? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040605225306.GA13011@puppy.inorganic.org> On Sat, Jun 05, 2004 at 02:43:18PM -0700, David M. Dowdle wrote: > Obviously you consider a trashcan a joke. So, where do you put bad cables, > old packing materials, etc? Outside the cage for the datacenter maintenance people to pick up and throw away? I could be wrong, but I seem to remember that Exodus actually had a policy against trashcans inside cages. -roy From michael at halligan.org Sat Jun 5 16:02:27 2004 From: michael at halligan.org (Michael T. Halligan) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 16:02:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Datacenter tools? In-Reply-To: <20040605225306.GA13011@puppy.inorganic.org> Message-ID: Oddly enough, I used to work with Dowdle a couple of years ago, and we hosted @ exodus.. We had a trash can in our datacenter.. We needed one, our ceo made us use homebuilt servers, and we were throwing out failed junk once a week :) > On Sat, Jun 05, 2004 at 02:43:18PM -0700, David M. Dowdle wrote: > > Obviously you consider a trashcan a joke. So, where do you put bad cables, > > old packing materials, etc? > > Outside the cage for the datacenter maintenance people to pick up and throw > away? > > I could be wrong, but I seem to remember that Exodus actually had a policy > against trashcans inside cages. > > -roy > -- ------------------- Michael T. Halligan Chief Geek Halligan Infrastructure Designs. http://www.halligan.org/ 3158 Mission St. #3 San Francisco, CA 94110 (415) 724.7998 - Mobile From alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com Sat Jun 5 16:42:37 2004 From: alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com (Alvin Oga) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 16:42:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: throw away - Re: Datacenter tools? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Jun 2004, Michael T. Halligan wrote: > Oddly enough, I used to work with Dowdle a couple of years ago, and we > hosted @ exodus.. We had a trash can in our datacenter.. We needed one, > our ceo made us use homebuilt servers, and we were throwing out failed > junk once a week :) i assume you were throwing away fans and power supply and disks ?? one needs good fans and ps ... motherboards rarely fail, at lest the ones i use, same fo no problems fans and ps too, but is fun to see all the dead fans/ps at colo's - remember the make and model numbers of the ones that are dead c ya alvin From chuck+baylisa at snew.com Sat Jun 5 18:32:45 2004 From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 21:32:45 -0400 Subject: throw away - Re: Datacenter tools? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040606013245.GA1864@2004.snew.com> Quoting Alvin Oga (alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com): > > On Sat, 5 Jun 2004, Michael T. Halligan wrote: > > > Oddly enough, I used to work with Dowdle a couple of years ago, and we > > hosted @ exodus.. We had a trash can in our datacenter.. We needed one, > > our ceo made us use homebuilt servers, and we were throwing out failed > > junk once a week :) > > i assume you were throwing away fans and power supply and disks ?? > > one needs good fans and ps ... yes yes and yes. I'd also put in RAM. I buy only a couple makers. (mushkin, corsair, kingston, perhaps 1-2 others). I'll only use Antec power supplies in machines I build for friends. I *might* use an enermax (one came with a case I got), but nothing else. 5VDC needs to be 5VDC. Not 4.5 when the video card kicks on hard with heavy graphics. 5.0. > motherboards rarely fail, at lest the ones i use, same fo no problems fans > and ps too, but is fun to see all the dead fans/ps at colo's > - remember the make and model numbers of the ones that are dead Not always. I when to deal with a machine and he had ALL the fans blowing out. Aside from creating a terrific vacuum - ok, likely he just created no air FLOW. And it's all about the FLOW. Count how long an SGI will run with no cover (esp the Indigo and Crimson).. From alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com Sat Jun 5 19:45:16 2004 From: alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com (Alvin Oga) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 19:45:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: throw away - Re: Datacenter tools? In-Reply-To: <20040606013245.GA1864@2004.snew.com> Message-ID: hi ya On Sat, 5 Jun 2004, Chuck Yerkes wrote: > > i assume you were throwing away fans and power supply and disks ?? > > > > one needs good fans and ps ... > > yes yes and yes. I'd also put in RAM. I buy only a couple makers. > (mushkin, corsair, kingston, perhaps 1-2 others). yup..and if they wanna save 50% - 100% of the memory prices.. i wind up going with generics :-) ( but its NOT worth it ... and kingston is a good tradeoff ( for quality/reliability vs price > I'll only use Antec power supplies in machines I build for friends. > I *might* use an enermax (one came with a case I got), but nothing > else. 5VDC needs to be 5VDC. Not 4.5 when the video card kicks on > hard with heavy graphics. 5.0. i wouldn't touch either antec/enermax .. but than again .. i seldom deal with dead ps ... - for 1Us, its zippy or sparkle and i wouldn't touch any other brand(reseller) for 1Us - gazillion resellers with their own labels covering the zippy or sparkle logos > > motherboards rarely fail, at lest the ones i use, same fo no problems fans > > and ps too, but is fun to see all the dead fans/ps at colo's > > - remember the make and model numbers of the ones that are dead > Not always. I when to deal with a machine and he had ALL the fans > blowing out. Aside from creating a terrific vacuum - ok, likely > he just created no air FLOW. yup one has to have as much or MORE air coming in than what goes out - need more fans sucking fresh into the case ( harder to do ) - lessor number of fans sucking air OUT of the case - most people have tooo many fans suckng air out of the case which causes "thin air" ( vaccuum ) and the itty bitty fans won't have any air to bite into - if one isn't sure, cover the fan with paper and watch your bios temp or disconnect the fan is better and light up a cigarette or candle and watch the air flow and if one has $$$ .. buy a 3D finite element simulator to model all the various heights of parts inside the case - the p4 cpu temp should be about 35C while doing kernel compiles, anything higher means the heatsink/fans/air are NOT doing their job?? fun stuff ... playing with "air" c ya alvin From rsr at inorganic.org Sat Jun 5 20:50:19 2004 From: rsr at inorganic.org (Roy S. Rapoport) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 20:50:19 -0700 Subject: throw away - Re: Datacenter tools? In-Reply-To: References: <20040606013245.GA1864@2004.snew.com> Message-ID: <20040606035019.GA85@puppy.inorganic.org> On Sat, Jun 05, 2004 at 07:45:16PM -0700, Alvin Oga wrote: > one has to have as much or MORE air coming in than what goes out I tried that once. Once I actually stopped all the air leaks, the computer worked for only about ten minute before blowing up due to the pressure differential. :) roy From guy at extragalactic.net Sun Jun 6 00:02:50 2004 From: guy at extragalactic.net (Guy B. Purcell) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 00:02:50 -0700 Subject: throw away (was "Re: Datacenter tools?") In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <864C6612-B787-11D8-BCC4-0030657CE32A@extragalactic.net> On Sat, 5 Jun 2004, Michael T. Halligan wrote: > Oddly enough, I used to work with Dowdle a couple of years ago, and we > hosted @ exodus.. We had a trash can in our datacenter.. We needed one, > our ceo made us use homebuilt servers, and we were throwing out failed > junk once a week :) FYI, BFI now recycles tech. The stuff is so full of heavy metals, and so relatively easy to reclaim still-useful/functional parts from, that it really shouldn't just go into the landfills. I think it's our responsibility, as the ones who replace the failed components, to do our level best to get this stuff recycled. So, if your data center doesn't have a special "tech bin" (mine doesn't), educate them & ask for one--and cart the stuff back to your office for BFI to pick up there in the meantime. Please. -Guy From holland at guidancetech.com Sun Jun 6 06:48:20 2004 From: holland at guidancetech.com (Rich Holland) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 09:48:20 -0400 Subject: throw away - Re: Datacenter tools? In-Reply-To: <20040606013245.GA1864@2004.snew.com> Message-ID: <20040606134918.6942C138EE7@puzzle.pobox.com> Chuck wrote: > And it's all about the FLOW. Count how long an SGI will run with > no cover (esp the Indigo and Crimson).. My IBM pSeries will suck lint against the front cover when dropped from 1-2 feet away, the fans are so strong... excellent fan design. -- Rich Holland (913) 645-1950 SAP Technical Consultant print unpack("u","92G5S\=\"!A;F]T:&5R(\'!E Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Jun 2004, Rich Holland wrote: > My IBM pSeries will suck lint against the front cover when dropped from 1-2 > feet away, the fans are so strong... excellent fan design. yup ... if the fans are working right, the fans should be able to suck couple 2-3-4 sheets of paper to the air intake vents ( paper being taped together :-) c ya alvin From alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com Sun Jun 6 07:38:51 2004 From: alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com (Alvin Oga) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 07:38:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: throw away - Re: Datacenter tools? In-Reply-To: <20040606035019.GA85@puppy.inorganic.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Jun 2004, Roy S. Rapoport wrote: > On Sat, Jun 05, 2004 at 07:45:16PM -0700, Alvin Oga wrote: > > one has to have as much or MORE air coming in than what goes out > > I tried that once. Once I actually stopped all the air leaks, the computer > worked for only about ten minute before blowing up due to the pressure > differential. blocking "air leaks" shouldn't blow anything up .. - might make the system quieter though - blocking a 4" fan for say 30sec - minute might cause the cpu temp to rise and maybe even automatically shutdown the box "air leaks" should not be an issue ... unless the airflow is marginal to being with ?? - and what was the cpu temp with the normal airflow ?? ( sounds like it was running higher than it should be ? ) just wondering ... c ya alvin From gwen at reptiles.org Sun Jun 6 10:21:10 2004 From: gwen at reptiles.org (Gwendolynn ferch Elydyr) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 13:21:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: throw away - Re: Datacenter tools? In-Reply-To: <20040606134918.6942C138EE7@puzzle.pobox.com> Message-ID: <20040606131857.C17210-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> On Sun, 6 Jun 2004, Rich Holland wrote: > My IBM pSeries will suck lint against the front cover when dropped from 1-2 > feet away, the fans are so strong... excellent fan design. I had a particular fright when I was working alone in the [company] datacenter one night. If you picture the scene... it's late, the lights are dim, it's just the mainframes and cabinets chattering away, and I'm concentrating on trying to sort out this recalcitrant sun box Suddenly I feel something pulling my head backwards... I -know- there's nobody there... I think... Turns out that the fans on the back of that row of IBM gear were just strong enough to grab onto my hair. Gah! cheers! ========================================================================== "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now." From michael at halligan.org Mon Jun 7 14:47:27 2004 From: michael at halligan.org (Michael T. Halligan) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 14:47:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Component distributors? Message-ID: One of my customers currently builds whitebox linux servers, and sells a few per month to his customers as a value-added service. He's currently sourcing components through nextag, but I was thinking he could save himself some hassles by going through a reseller.. He's got a reseller's permit. I was wondering if anybody had any experience with them? I personally have an account with malabs and love them, but I've heard there are some others that have a wider girth of products, and sometimes better prices, like Ingram-Micro .. ------------------- Michael T. Halligan Chief Geek Halligan Infrastructure Designs. http://www.halligan.org/ 3158 Mission St. #3 San Francisco, CA 94110 (415) 724.7998 - Mobile From alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com Mon Jun 7 16:37:36 2004 From: alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com (Alvin Oga) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 16:37:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Component distributors? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: hi ya michael On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Michael T. Halligan wrote: > One of my customers currently builds whitebox linux servers, and sells a few > per month to his customers as a value-added service. He's currently > sourcing components through nextag, but I was thinking he could save buying components from nextag/pricewatch/dealtime is a (very) bad thing:-) - i assume you mean mb, disks, cpu, memory, case, etc,etc components to most distibutors are resistors, capacitors, 74xx, relays, switches vs wires, cables, harness, etc > himself some hassles by going through a reseller.. He's got a reseller's > permit. if he has a resellers permit, he can buy direct from distributors and depending on number of different parts, he can easily beat any webstore prices for "all parts" the mom-n-pop webstore might have one part that is super cheap to get you into their place, which they might not even stock which you sometimes do NOT know about till after they have your credit card info - if you buy direct from distributors w/ a reseller permit and do NOT resell it, you can lose your reseller permit - always asks a live person, if they have it in stock ( today ), and go pick it up ( today ) to see if they have xxx part in stock at $xx.01 each ( otherwise, you can buy everything from your favorite distributor and get a better pricing from them cause you buy "everything" from them - i only care about what they have in inventory ... and i go pick it up and sometimes have them ship it cause we don't have time to run around the bay area - yup, just got back from my daily errands picking up parts - list of local distributors http://www.Linux-1U.net/Distributors - some distributors are better than others ( they know what you want and what they have in stock ) - some distributors will sell to consumers and people with reseller permits ( in general a paperwork nightmare for them ) - some distributors pricing is better than others - some distributors have a (hidden or obvious) online store - some big distributors will only talk to you if you have your sku part# ... and tell you go away if you tell um you want an intel p4-2.8G 800fsb c ya alvin From michael at halligan.org Mon Jun 7 17:03:04 2004 From: michael at halligan.org (Michael T. Halligan) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 17:03:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Component distributors? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I know all this, thanks though. My real interest is more like a rating of price & user interactiveness, and a listing (where your site was helpful, thanks! didn't know about some of those distributors) On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Alvin Oga wrote: > > hi ya michael > > On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Michael T. Halligan wrote: > > > One of my customers currently builds whitebox linux servers, and sells a few > > per month to his customers as a value-added service. He's currently > > sourcing components through nextag, but I was thinking he could save > > buying components from nextag/pricewatch/dealtime is a (very) bad thing:-) > - i assume you mean mb, disks, cpu, memory, case, etc,etc > > components to most distibutors are resistors, capacitors, 74xx, > relays, switches vs wires, cables, harness, etc > > > himself some hassles by going through a reseller.. He's got a reseller's > > permit. > > if he has a resellers permit, he can buy direct from distributors and > depending on number of different parts, he can easily beat any webstore > prices for "all parts" > the mom-n-pop webstore might have one part that is super cheap > to get you into their place, which they might not even stock > which you sometimes do NOT know about till after they have > your credit card info > > - if you buy direct from distributors w/ a reseller permit and do NOT > resell it, you can lose your reseller permit > > - always asks a live person, if they have it in stock ( today ), and go > pick it up ( today ) to see if they have xxx part in stock at $xx.01 > each ( otherwise, you can buy everything from your favorite distributor > and get a better pricing from them cause you buy "everything" from them > - i only care about what they have in inventory ... > and i go pick it up and sometimes have them ship it > cause we don't have time to run around the bay area > > - yup, just got back from my daily errands picking up parts > > - list of local distributors > > http://www.Linux-1U.net/Distributors > > - some distributors are better than others > ( they know what you want and what they have in stock ) > > - some distributors will sell to consumers and people with > reseller permits ( in general a paperwork nightmare for them ) > - some distributors pricing is better than others > - some distributors have a (hidden or obvious) online store > > - some big distributors will only talk to you if you have your > sku part# ... and tell you go away if you tell um you want > an intel p4-2.8G 800fsb > > c ya > alvin > > ------------------- Michael T. Halligan Chief Geek Halligan Infrastructure Designs. http://www.halligan.org/ 3158 Mission St. #3 San Francisco, CA 94110 (415) 724.7998 - Mobile From michael at halligan.org Thu Jun 10 11:17:38 2004 From: michael at halligan.org (Michael T. Halligan) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 11:17:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Open-Source CRM/SFA? Message-ID: I'm looking for a good product for CRM and SFA .. More so for sales force automation (Basically, I just want a good multi-user quoting system that can generate nice-looking quotes in pdf,excel, word, and html.. and keep track of them.) than for CRM, since that's more or less covered in our ticketing/billing system. I'm currently looking at XRMS, SugarCRM, and Hipernet which have been recommended.. Has anybody used these, or had any luck with others like this? Michael ------------------- Michael T. Halligan Chief Geek Halligan Infrastructure Designs. http://www.halligan.org/ 3158 Mission St. #3 San Francisco, CA 94110 (415) 724.7998 - Mobile From dsmith at FinancialEngines.com Thu Jun 10 11:36:21 2004 From: dsmith at FinancialEngines.com (David Smith) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 11:36:21 -0700 Subject: Open-Source CRM/SFA? Message-ID: <6CE579EA6AB29040BEA6785E0150DE65181C35@inf-exch-pa-01.fngn.com> Checkout Salesforce.com Cheers, Dave ---- David Smith Voice: 650-565-7750 Fax: 650-565-4905 432F 465C 5866 FC46 5B19 EAC6 AED3 E032 F49B 62CF -----Original Message----- From: Michael T. Halligan [mailto:michael at halligan.org] Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 11:18 AM To: baylisa at baylisa.org Subject: Open-Source CRM/SFA? I'm looking for a good product for CRM and SFA .. More so for sales force automation (Basically, I just want a good multi-user quoting system that can generate nice-looking quotes in pdf,excel, word, and html.. and keep track of them.) than for CRM, since that's more or less covered in our ticketing/billing system. I'm currently looking at XRMS, SugarCRM, and Hipernet which have been recommended.. Has anybody used these, or had any luck with others like this? Michael ------------------- Michael T. Halligan Chief Geek Halligan Infrastructure Designs. http://www.halligan.org/ 3158 Mission St. #3 San Francisco, CA 94110 (415) 724.7998 - Mobile From michael at halligan.org Thu Jun 10 11:55:39 2004 From: michael at halligan.org (Michael T. Halligan) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 11:55:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Open-Source CRM/SFA? In-Reply-To: <6CE579EA6AB29040BEA6785E0150DE65181C35@inf-exch-pa-01.fngn.com> Message-ID: Sorry, I should have specified open-source in the body as well as in the title.. I'm a very small operation, and am hoping there free some free platforms out there, because there are better spots to throw my money at right now.. As far as I've heard, salesforce is very expensive. On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, David Smith wrote: > Checkout Salesforce.com > > Cheers, > Dave > > ---- > David Smith > Voice: 650-565-7750 Fax: 650-565-4905 > > 432F 465C 5866 FC46 5B19 EAC6 AED3 E032 F49B 62CF > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael T. Halligan [mailto:michael at halligan.org] > Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 11:18 AM > To: baylisa at baylisa.org > Subject: Open-Source CRM/SFA? > > > I'm looking for a good product for CRM and SFA .. More so for sales > force automation (Basically, I just want a good multi-user quoting > system that can > generate nice-looking quotes in pdf,excel, word, and html.. and keep > track of them.) than for CRM, since that's more or less covered in our > ticketing/billing system. > > I'm currently looking at XRMS, SugarCRM, and Hipernet which have been > recommended.. > > Has anybody used these, or had any luck with others like this? > > Michael > > > > ------------------- > Michael T. Halligan > Chief Geek > Halligan Infrastructure Designs. > http://www.halligan.org/ > 3158 Mission St. #3 > San Francisco, CA 94110 > (415) 724.7998 - Mobile > > > ------------------- Michael T. Halligan Chief Geek Halligan Infrastructure Designs. http://www.halligan.org/ 3158 Mission St. #3 San Francisco, CA 94110 (415) 724.7998 - Mobile From dsmith at FinancialEngines.com Thu Jun 10 12:02:10 2004 From: dsmith at FinancialEngines.com (David Smith) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 12:02:10 -0700 Subject: Open-Source CRM/SFA? Message-ID: <6CE579EA6AB29040BEA6785E0150DE65181C3F@inf-exch-pa-01.fngn.com> They have a free version for one person. Team edition (5 users?) is 1K/year ---- David Smith Voice: 650-565-7750 Fax: 650-565-4905 432F 465C 5866 FC46 5B19 EAC6 AED3 E032 F49B 62CF -----Original Message----- From: Michael T. Halligan [mailto:michael at halligan.org] Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 11:56 AM To: baylisa at baylisa.org Subject: RE: Open-Source CRM/SFA? Sorry, I should have specified open-source in the body as well as in the title.. I'm a very small operation, and am hoping there free some free platforms out there, because there are better spots to throw my money at right now.. As far as I've heard, salesforce is very expensive. On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, David Smith wrote: > Checkout Salesforce.com > > Cheers, > Dave > > ---- > David Smith > Voice: 650-565-7750 Fax: 650-565-4905 > > 432F 465C 5866 FC46 5B19 EAC6 AED3 E032 F49B 62CF > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael T. Halligan [mailto:michael at halligan.org] > Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 11:18 AM > To: baylisa at baylisa.org > Subject: Open-Source CRM/SFA? > > > I'm looking for a good product for CRM and SFA .. More so for sales > force automation (Basically, I just want a good multi-user quoting > system that can > generate nice-looking quotes in pdf,excel, word, and html.. and keep > track of them.) than for CRM, since that's more or less covered in our > ticketing/billing system. > > I'm currently looking at XRMS, SugarCRM, and Hipernet which have been > recommended.. > > Has anybody used these, or had any luck with others like this? > > Michael > > > > ------------------- > Michael T. Halligan > Chief Geek > Halligan Infrastructure Designs. > http://www.halligan.org/ > 3158 Mission St. #3 > San Francisco, CA 94110 > (415) 724.7998 - Mobile > > > ------------------- Michael T. Halligan Chief Geek Halligan Infrastructure Designs. http://www.halligan.org/ 3158 Mission St. #3 San Francisco, CA 94110 (415) 724.7998 - Mobile From rsr at inorganic.org Thu Jun 10 12:05:48 2004 From: rsr at inorganic.org (Roy S. Rapoport) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 12:05:48 -0700 Subject: Open-Source CRM/SFA? In-Reply-To: <6CE579EA6AB29040BEA6785E0150DE65181C35@inf-exch-pa-01.fngn.com> References: <6CE579EA6AB29040BEA6785E0150DE65181C35@inf-exch-pa-01.fngn.com> Message-ID: <20040610190548.GA9343@puppy.inorganic.org> On Thu, Jun 10, 2004 at 11:36:21AM -0700, David Smith wrote: > Checkout Salesforce.com Other than that they're not open-source, they're great. Of course, the topic of this thread is ... oh, nevermind. -roy From michael at halligan.org Thu Jun 10 12:07:28 2004 From: michael at halligan.org (Michael T. Halligan) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 12:07:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Open-Source CRM/SFA? In-Reply-To: <6CE579EA6AB29040BEA6785E0150DE65181C3F@inf-exch-pa-01.fngn.com> Message-ID: Wow. Consider me schooled. I'll definately check that out, thanks! On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, David Smith wrote: > They have a free version for one person. Team edition (5 users?) is > 1K/year > > > ---- > David Smith > Voice: 650-565-7750 Fax: 650-565-4905 > > 432F 465C 5866 FC46 5B19 EAC6 AED3 E032 F49B 62CF > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael T. Halligan [mailto:michael at halligan.org] > Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 11:56 AM > To: baylisa at baylisa.org > Subject: RE: Open-Source CRM/SFA? > > Sorry, I should have specified open-source in the body > as well as in the title.. I'm a very small operation, and am > hoping there free some free platforms out there, because there > are better spots to throw my money at right now.. As far > as I've heard, salesforce is very expensive. > > > On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, David Smith wrote: > > > Checkout Salesforce.com > > > > Cheers, > > Dave > > > > ---- > > David Smith > > Voice: 650-565-7750 Fax: 650-565-4905 > > > > 432F 465C 5866 FC46 5B19 EAC6 AED3 E032 F49B 62CF > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Michael T. Halligan [mailto:michael at halligan.org] > > Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 11:18 AM > > To: baylisa at baylisa.org > > Subject: Open-Source CRM/SFA? > > > > > > I'm looking for a good product for CRM and SFA .. More so for sales > > force automation (Basically, I just want a good multi-user quoting > > system that can > > generate nice-looking quotes in pdf,excel, word, and html.. and keep > > track of them.) than for CRM, since that's more or less covered in our > > ticketing/billing system. > > > > I'm currently looking at XRMS, SugarCRM, and Hipernet which have been > > recommended.. > > > > Has anybody used these, or had any luck with others like this? > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > ------------------- > > Michael T. Halligan > > Chief Geek > > Halligan Infrastructure Designs. > > http://www.halligan.org/ > > 3158 Mission St. #3 > > San Francisco, CA 94110 > > (415) 724.7998 - Mobile > > > > > > > > ------------------- > Michael T. Halligan > Chief Geek > Halligan Infrastructure Designs. > http://www.halligan.org/ > 3158 Mission St. #3 > San Francisco, CA 94110 > (415) 724.7998 - Mobile > > ------------------- Michael T. Halligan Chief Geek Halligan Infrastructure Designs. http://www.halligan.org/ 3158 Mission St. #3 San Francisco, CA 94110 (415) 724.7998 - Mobile From aub at infoqualis.com Thu Jun 10 14:15:57 2004 From: aub at infoqualis.com (Alberto Begliomini) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 14:15:57 -0700 Subject: Oracle performance engineer Message-ID: <40C8CF8D.1050602@infoqualis.com> I am looking for an Oracle performance engineer who has experience working with Linux installations of Oracle for a gig with on of our clients. Please contact me asap at 650-654-0170. Thanks. Alberto -- Alberto Begliomini General Partner InfoQualis http://www.infoqualis.com aub at infoqualis.com voice: 650-352-8550 x112 direct: 650-654-0170 cell: 650-743-3975 fax: 650-352-8551 From jeff at drinktomi.com Wed Jun 9 17:10:39 2004 From: jeff at drinktomi.com (Jeff With The Big Yellow Suit) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 17:10:39 -0700 Subject: throw away (was "Re: Datacenter tools?") In-Reply-To: <864C6612-B787-11D8-BCC4-0030657CE32A@extragalactic.net> References: <864C6612-B787-11D8-BCC4-0030657CE32A@extragalactic.net> Message-ID: <40C7A6FF.9000806@drinktomi.com> > I think it's our responsibility, as the ones who replace the > failed components, to do our level best to get this > stuff recycled. So, if your data center doesn't have a special > "tech bin" (mine doesn't), educate them & ask for one--and > cart the stuff back to your office for BFI to pick up there in > the meantime. Please. An acquaintance of mine runs a junkyard. His real money maker is old electronics. He sells to them in bulk to Chinese firms which extract the precious metals. As he says, "A little bit of junk is just crap. A whole lot of junk is money." -jeff From alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com Fri Jun 11 17:24:34 2004 From: alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com (Alvin Oga) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 17:24:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: recycling Re: throw away (was "Re: Datacenter tools?") In-Reply-To: <40C7A6FF.9000806@drinktomi.com> Message-ID: hi ya On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Jeff With The Big Yellow Suit wrote: > > I think it's our responsibility, as the ones who replace the > > failed components, to do our level best to get this > > stuff recycled. So, if your data center doesn't have a special > > "tech bin" (mine doesn't), educate them & ask for one--and > > cart the stuff back to your office for BFI to pick up there in > > the meantime. Please. > > An acquaintance of mine runs a junkyard. His real money maker > is old electronics. He sells to them in bulk to Chinese firms which > extract the precious metals. As he says, "A little bit of junk is just > crap. A whole lot of junk is money." that's a lot of junk they'd have to ship back to get back some $$$ - presumably they just want the fingers of the pci cards to get the gold out of it - they'd probably want the wires to get the copper out of it - the case ... tin is too cheap ... might not be worth it?? and too bulky - foxelectronics is the local outfit that makes $$$ off these old junk - for local recycling ... - monitors is a pain in the butt to recycle ... though bfi and others seem to take it away and dump at the local dump site ( not a good thing ) - ups batteries ... more of a pain to properly get rid of ( these are gonna be creating lots of headaches as soon as ( it starts to find its way to the water supply ( there are millions more throw away batteries now than before - recycling 386/486/pentium, 500MB, 1GB disks are good to do too ( am interested in helping out - problem is what to do or where to send the refurb'd boxes ( these are perfectly still good boxes ... i still run a pentium-90 w/ 48mb of memory - if exodus, he, other major color create a tech bin, i don't mind going around collecting junk and refurbing to give to "the kids" ?? - it might save a few fish in the bay - other way to recycle... - convert the midtwower/fulltower case to a 2U rackmount case ?? c ya alvin From dannyman at toldme.com Sat Jun 12 08:45:20 2004 From: dannyman at toldme.com (Danny Howard) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 08:45:20 -0700 Subject: recycling Re: throw away (was "Re: Datacenter tools?") In-Reply-To: References: <40C7A6FF.9000806@drinktomi.com> Message-ID: <20040612154520.GE66923@ratchet.nebcorp.com> On Fri, Jun 11, 2004 at 05:24:34PM -0700, Alvin Oga wrote: > that's a lot of junk they'd have to ship back to get back some $$$ > - presumably they just want the fingers of the pci cards > to get the gold out of it > > - they'd probably want the wires to get the copper out of it [...] Actually, there are plenty of interesting materials, especially the gold, but in such small quantities that it is only cost-effective for very poor people to extract them. So they get shipped way the heck out to the middle of nowhere, to be disassembled with mallets and other inexpensive tools. Other trace amounts of lead and mercury leak out in the process and contaminate the groundwater, helping to kill the people who are disassembling your PCs for the lowest price. Or, I read something like that. So, try to get some info on who is going to be doing the recycling how. There are plenty of, say, poor African countries who could probably use your machines, but shipping to Africa is more expensive, because they are not sending us huge container ships full of manufactured goods that need to be sent back. Sincerely, -danny From guy at extragalactic.net Mon Jun 14 00:08:35 2004 From: guy at extragalactic.net (Guy B. Purcell) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 00:08:35 -0700 Subject: recycling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: [* Recasting the subject a little to keep it more clean/clear. -Guy *] On Jun 11, 2004, at 17:24, Alvin Oga wrote: > On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Jeff With The Big Yellow Suit wrote: > >>> I think it's our responsibility, as the ones who replace the >>> failed components, to do our level best to get this >>> stuff recycled. >> >> An acquaintance of mine runs a junkyard. His real money maker >> is old electronics. He sells to them in bulk to Chinese firms which >> extract the precious metals. > > that's a lot of junk they'd have to ship back to get back some $$$ > - presumably they just want the fingers of the pci cards > to get the gold out of it Actually, they extract trace amounts of all sorts of stuff from machines that can't be reused--including the gold, but also lead, nickel, & zinc, to name the few I know of for sure. Someone else (sorry I've forgotten whom & have deleted the message already) brought up the very good point that much of this reclamation gets done by poor peoples in other countries without proper extraction facilities--a health hazard. While I don't have a reference, I recall seeing a documentary about just this same thing, and I sympathize with those people; however, I see fixing this problem as something that will have to happen in version 1.1 of our tech. recycling program: the first thing to do here in version 1.0 is just to get the stuff to be recycled in the first place--get people thinking about not just tossing it in the landfills. > - for local recycling ... > - monitors is a pain in the butt to recycle ... though > bfi and others seem to take it away and dump at the local > dump site ( not a good thing ) No, they don't _if_ you don't just toss 'em in the dumpster with the real garbage. Monitors (and other tech. equipment) turned in for recycling get recycled; those placed in dumpsters don't, and end up in our landfills. > - ups batteries ... more of a pain to properly get rid of Again, BFI recycles these along with all other batteries (so if your company lacks a recycling bin for all those pager, cell phone, and so on batteries, get/make one--even if it's just a cardboard box sitting on your desk that everyone knows about, like mine). > - recycling 386/486/pentium, 500MB, 1GB disks are good to do too > ( am interested in helping out > > - problem is what to do or where to send the refurb'd boxes [...and other examples...] Technically, you're talking about "reusing" here & not "recycling"--a necessary distinction in these times of (elementary) environmental focus. Reusing is much better, if it's possible to do: no energy gets wasted in remanufacturing. But remember, this thread originated from the mention of failed components which, by definition, aren't reusable. -Guy From chuck+baylisa at snew.com Mon Jun 14 11:18:45 2004 From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:18:45 -0400 Subject: recycling Re: throw away (was "Re: Datacenter tools?") In-Reply-To: References: <40C7A6FF.9000806@drinktomi.com> Message-ID: <20040614181845.GA12480@2004.snew.com> Quoting Alvin Oga (alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com): > On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Jeff With The Big Yellow Suit wrote: > > An acquaintance of mine runs a junkyard. His real money maker > > is old electronics. He sells to them in bulk to Chinese firms which > > extract the precious metals. As he says, "A little bit of junk is just > > crap. A whole lot of junk is money." > > that's a lot of junk they'd have to ship back to get back some $$$ > - presumably they just want the fingers of the pci cards > to get the gold out of it And you'd be presuming that wrong. Again. > - for local recycling ... > - monitors is a pain in the butt to recycle ... though > bfi and others seem to take it away and dump at the local > dump site ( not a good thing ) Actually, CRT's (the tube) are likely the worse part. But with transformers containing lots of nasty pollutants, it's a huge issue. > - ups batteries ... more of a pain to properly get rid of Nope, not at all. There is vigourous recycling of lead/acid batteries. Sealed ones (as common in UPSs) are easy to mail. I got a return mailer when I got a new tripplite battery set. Radio Shack will take all sorts of laptop and rechargable batteries (NiCd and LiOn). > ( these are gonna be creating lots of headaches as soon as > ( it starts to find its way to the water supply > ( there are millions more throw away batteries now than before Again, uninformed opinion. A lot of the particularly nasty stuff that was in batteries 15 years ago isn't. Your basic akaline battery now doesn't contain mercury and a lot of the stuff that was bad for landfills. I was fairly concious of these issues working in film as I saved my used AAA batteries in a bag. I think I had something on the order of 200 of them in 6 months (use a minimag 6-7 hrs/day and add in pager batteries in misc controllers). NiCd sucked for pagers (very steep voltage drop meaning it went from fine -> dead in a few minutes) and one lost job bought another sack of batteries. > - if exodus, he, other major color create a tech bin, i don't mind > going around collecting junk and refurbing to give to "the kids" ?? > - it might save a few fish in the bay But kill a grammar teacher. "The kids" usually push computers harder than "the parents". There's not much Joe Desktop does that pushes the bounds of a machine running a P/500. Otoh, "the kids" want to edit video and sound and play games while IM and EMailing and will actually USE a PCI-X buss. But datacenter machines are not that. And I really don't want to give "the kids" an Ultra 60 or an E420R. If y'all can find a good use for a DecStation 3100, lemme know. 30MHz of MIPS love there. It's in my garage. *IS* it waste? What's more wasteful? A 300Watt machine with a 200MHz Ultra Sparc chip in it or tossing that and replacing it with a 110watt box with dual 1GHz Pentiums? (or a 60Watt G4 box?) Is the waste produced when you dump an 4way E3000 more than what you save by putting in a machine 6x more powerful that draws 1/3 the power? At what point does the cost of making electricity outweigh the cost of handling the waste (well or not). In Germany, there was a "tax" added to the purchase price of many things to cover the cost of recycling the packaging. So if you plastic-blast a screwdriver to cardstock, it will cost you more than if you package it with a plastic form over cardstock with a staple. In the latter, to recycle you simply remove the staple and have easy to handle separate cardboard and plastic. I though that an interesting notion. Especially as I stopped a friend from tossing his P/266 for an entirely new box and got him a new MoBo and RAM. Same PS (an Antec which the 'scope shows as really stable under load), same case, etc. The P/266 went into an old case I have & was healed with BSD and runs a mail server for a theater. *Upgrades* of machines could be encouraged a lot more, IMHO. From rleedy at ketera.com Mon Jun 14 14:07:29 2004 From: rleedy at ketera.com (Ron Leedy) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:07:29 -0700 Subject: UNIX scheduler product Message-ID: <5444A9998C69D5458C5330D1A64DE387E38A3E@kexbe1.ketera.com> Does anyone know of a job scheduler with the following specs: - A centralized repository for several servers - Flow control (success exits kick off releases another job) - Alert e-mails for non-success exits - History of scheduled jobs and exit statuses - Solaris and Linux support Guess I want my days of working with MVS without paying the Big Blue ticket Ron Leedy Manager of Managed Services Ketera, Inc. Office: 408-572-9431 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com Mon Jun 14 15:04:52 2004 From: alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com (Alvin Oga) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 15:04:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UNIX scheduler product In-Reply-To: <5444A9998C69D5458C5330D1A64DE387E38A3E@kexbe1.ketera.com> Message-ID: hi ya ron On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Ron Leedy wrote: > Does anyone know of a job scheduler with the following specs: > > - A centralized repository for several servers > - Flow control (success exits kick off releases another job) > - Alert e-mails for non-success exits > - History of scheduled jobs and exit statuses > - Solaris and Linux support ez ( trivial ) to write one in perl - day or two or 1hr - 1/2 day or two for "html based job submit app for the user" Servers.Available - list of servers Servers.BZ - jobs that its running Servers.incoming - jobs are submitted into the file Master - all jobs are submitted to "Master" - job peferences for specific servers to be sent out to it - check for the specific server to be available, otherwise send to next one on the list and lock that server if only one job per server is allowed - your normal alerts and put the server back into "available" - wait for next job c ya alvin - what if the master dies... each servers watches over each other - other fun stuff, shared disk space or not and job locks From alfw at slac.stanford.edu Mon Jun 14 15:09:48 2004 From: alfw at slac.stanford.edu (Alf Wachsmann) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 15:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UNIX scheduler product In-Reply-To: <5444A9998C69D5458C5330D1A64DE387E38A3E@kexbe1.ketera.com> References: <5444A9998C69D5458C5330D1A64DE387E38A3E@kexbe1.ketera.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Ron Leedy wrote: > Does anyone know of a job scheduler with the following specs: > > - A centralized repository for several servers > - Flow control (success exits kick off releases another job) > - Alert e-mails for non-success exits > - History of scheduled jobs and exit statuses > - Solaris and Linux support > > Guess I want my days of working with MVS without paying the Big Blue > ticket Have a look at Sun Grid Engine: http://gridengine.sunsource.net/ It's open-source, has many, many features, is very stable, has a large user base, runs on all sorts of Unices and Windows, etc. etc. -- Alf. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Alf Wachsmann | e-mail: alfw at slac.stanford.edu SLAC Computing Service | Phone: +1-650-926-4802 2575 Sand Hill Road, M/S 97 | FAX: +1-650-926-3329 Menlo Park, CA 94025, USA | Office: Bldg. 50/323 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.slac.stanford.edu/~alfw (PGP) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From michael at halligan.org Mon Jun 14 15:18:12 2004 From: michael at halligan.org (Michael T. Halligan) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 15:18:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UNIX scheduler product In-Reply-To: <5444A9998C69D5458C5330D1A64DE387E38A3E@kexbe1.ketera.com> Message-ID: Ron, I've heard some good things about Vexus from a friend of mine. If you have "BUDGET" and are looking for something rock-solid, for a large enterprise, you might want to check out Tivoli. I also looked at Embarcadero a couple of years ago, their Linux support wasn't really there, but they might have improved since.. I know there are some great task schedulers out there specifically for Linux, you could find them easily enough searching through www.beowulf-underground.org .. Michael > Does anyone know of a job scheduler with the following specs: > > - A centralized repository for several servers > - Flow control (success exits kick off releases another job) > - Alert e-mails for non-success exits > - History of scheduled jobs and exit statuses > - Solaris and Linux support > > Guess I want my days of working with MVS without paying the Big Blue > ticket > > Ron Leedy > Manager of Managed Services > Ketera, Inc. > Office: 408-572-9431 > > ------------------- Michael T. Halligan Chief Geek Halligan Infrastructure Designs. http://www.halligan.org/ 3158 Mission St. #3 San Francisco, CA 94110 (415) 724.7998 - Mobile From chuck+baylisa at snew.com Mon Jun 14 16:06:21 2004 From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 19:06:21 -0400 Subject: UNIX scheduler product In-Reply-To: <5444A9998C69D5458C5330D1A64DE387E38A3E@kexbe1.ketera.com> References: <5444A9998C69D5458C5330D1A64DE387E38A3E@kexbe1.ketera.com> Message-ID: <20040614230621.GA19039@2004.snew.com> Quoting Ron Leedy (rleedy at ketera.com): > Does anyone know of a job scheduler with the following specs: > > - A centralized repository for several servers > - Flow control (success exits kick off releases another job) > - Alert e-mails for non-success exits > - History of scheduled jobs and exit statuses > - Solaris and Linux support > > Guess I want my days of working with MVS without paying the Big Blue > ticket When Open*Vision bought us (fusion systems group), we had a scheduler. They actually acquired another one with hope of merging them into something unified that worked well. It was FAR from non trivial (on all Sun clients, run THIS, if that works, run THAT on certain servers for which the client run succeeded). (eg. if the equitiea group's clients succeeded, run the next step on the equities groups servers. But don't touch MBS servers if the MBS client runs failed) Deep and hard logic as well as some heavy coding. Veritas bought OpenVision. I wonder if either of these products still exist. That said, cfengine could do some of the lesser tasks described. (basic distributed cron along with some config awareness). From gwen at reptiles.org Mon Jun 14 16:08:13 2004 From: gwen at reptiles.org (Gwendolynn ferch Elydyr) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 19:08:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: UNIX scheduler product In-Reply-To: <5444A9998C69D5458C5330D1A64DE387E38A3E@kexbe1.ketera.com> Message-ID: <20040614190653.B17210-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Ron Leedy wrote: > Does anyone know of a job scheduler with the following specs: > > - A centralized repository for several servers > - Flow control (success exits kick off releases another job) > - Alert e-mails for non-success exits > - History of scheduled jobs and exit statuses > - Solaris and Linux support Hrm. I haven't really done much with it, but you might try looking at UWisc's condor. cheers! ========================================================================== "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now." From marco at escape.org Mon Jun 14 15:17:23 2004 From: marco at escape.org (Marco Nicosia) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 15:17:23 -0700 Subject: UNIX scheduler product In-Reply-To: <5444A9998C69D5458C5330D1A64DE387E38A3E@kexbe1.ketera.com>; from rleedy@ketera.com on Mon, Jun 14, 2004 at 02:07:29PM -0700 References: <5444A9998C69D5458C5330D1A64DE387E38A3E@kexbe1.ketera.com> Message-ID: <20040614151723.N14847@escape.org> We've looked at Computer Associate's AutoSys, but it seemed to be overkill for a simple centralized cron-relpacement. It's a part of CA's massive UniCenter line. I'd love to find something a little less grandiose in scale. -- Marco Ron Leedy (rleedy at ketera.com) wrote: > Does anyone know of a job scheduler with the following specs: > > - A centralized repository for several servers > - Flow control (success exits kick off releases another job) > - Alert e-mails for non-success exits > - History of scheduled jobs and exit statuses > - Solaris and Linux support > > Guess I want my days of working with MVS without paying the Big Blue ticket > > Ron Leedy > Manager of Managed Services > Ketera, Inc. > Office: 408-572-9431 > _______________________________________________________________________ Marco E. Nicosia | http://www.escape.org/~marco/ | marco at escape.org From alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com Mon Jun 14 17:56:55 2004 From: alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com (Alvin Oga) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 17:56:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UNIX scheduler product - more In-Reply-To: Message-ID: hi ya alf On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Alf Wachsmann wrote: > On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Ron Leedy wrote: > > Does anyone know of a job scheduler with the following specs: > > > > - A centralized repository for several servers > > - Flow control (success exits kick off releases another job) > > - Alert e-mails for non-success exits > > - History of scheduled jobs and exit statuses > > - Solaris and Linux support > > > > Guess I want my days of working with MVS without paying the Big Blue > > ticket > > Have a look at Sun Grid Engine: http://gridengine.sunsource.net/ ... more cluster-based schedulers http://itx-blades.net/Cluster/#Apps c ya alvin From fscked at pacbell.net Mon Jun 14 18:08:39 2004 From: fscked at pacbell.net (richard childers / kg6hac) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 18:08:39 -0700 Subject: UNIX scheduler product In-Reply-To: <20040614151723.N14847@escape.org> References: <5444A9998C69D5458C5330D1A64DE387E38A3E@kexbe1.ketera.com> <20040614151723.N14847@escape.org> Message-ID: <40CE4C17.1030400@pacbell.net> Ron Leedy (rleedy at ketera.com) wrote: >>Does anyone know of a job scheduler with the following specs: >> >>- A centralized repository for several servers >>- Flow control (success exits kick off releases another job) >>- Alert e-mails for non-success exits >>- History of scheduled jobs and exit statuses >>- Solaris and Linux support >> >>Guess I want my days of working with MVS without paying the Big Blue ticket >> >>Ron Leedy >>Manager of Managed Services >>Ketera, Inc. >>Office: 408-572-9431 >> What's wrong with a series of crontab entries, interoperation coordinated through use of lock files, made visible via NFS? All rock-solid technology, decades old now. For added reliability, just add a dedicated network interface, and a subnet for the NFS traffic. - Centralized repository: crontabs served via NFS and [re]installed daily, hourly, whatever. - Flow control: a question of crontab entries and lock files containing PIDs. No problem. - Alert emails: already built in, but it helps if you write your cron entries to handle stdio. - History: just see /var/log/crond, or whatever it's called this decade - Solaris and Linux: ... and a whole lot of others, too. We used stuff like this to control multi-million dollar trades at Rosenberg Capital Management, no problem. Regards, -- richard -- Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services 945 Taraval Street, #105 San Francisco, CA 94116 USA [011.]1.415.759.5571 http://www.daemonized.com -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) mQGiBECGpfsRBACoPJJfIIrWAqjlW92TtYCtY//e7OW8alWylr/1ygtSQzjCCdvC Ysa0fCcx01UenlWV+5YY/zC7KPsX2rQUKAs20fqs9et74dmgMGOj0vMjTzWEs29G FyAsIRSpFioa8zzrjXEUVnU6OFaD9a9eaC+LSTCiKgXjbQySDKM5T1c+vwCg8W3Y RZ83LRIUULGMPlY6zS4fQwUEAIIiTHDdWpbE+HeREJwH+4eDpGVf76XtNlOMXrt9 tJ3ExL+9ezLulg1nCrOYodOB7TEZqzV40R7emDZSX0hI9QEBCv6nW5aDVpw/bf+q UEHwxrUvE2LBi35hoqR2QwqNlagOauSorWj8Qm/31luxJVeLVy1A1czp6B/mvG1T co03A/9a5kzEAebJ5TzWXQC2/4gu/osXQnrw9B9FFpYOtLc0MNQuAFt8VLn5yO5Q 8T58w+FQvFI5FqzI5URmjQeEyWWuyIechknk4RnwIO1UPVjgRTuNgf9/TvNNfqpa aVlbNp+AG21D6VqsFN2zJFFJeUqiYdXw6i+ESL3SZRymIhwYWrQ8UmljaGFyZCBB IENoaWxkZXJzICh3d3cuZGFlbW9uaXplZC5jb20pIDxmc2NrZWRAcGFjYmVsbC5u ZXQ+iF4EExECAB4FAkCGpfsCGwMGCwkIBwMCAxUCAwMWAgECHgECF4AACgkQjGqW TlNTP66KzQCgjf0SQbiK1rgu7hRsmLPSSaGF7X8AoL7Qw/E9kTZr0fntP0XXEnk/ q6nRuQINBECGpvkQCADFzFq+kYbk+KTIhcVBTjTWDbBnjGgmuGR3LGp9hOd6W9SJ i4GD5184ZnMbEgvDZcDEGDNgMcU+f1girwYI2v/o7QA7VQ5bpUbnfOBytzO+bvd7 uCOyJltg8AG5MFLxfhAMHofpNxGlFTEXdVp4M9xyBB+hdLHbJNJqkMGPf+iCUf1W Q86KncU2AK4Sf9I+WYBZwkjaIhi9dQzeEX1c0Um6LxXSBtkjZprIk1M13gVaIJ6E dDN6hrSMbXZL+7yURw38vHXCtRJAKEOyW178rI8MzJzvVNhobvC62uEWD9Idz8sH 5A06fqb2fKJYLQ1keGUpb/qpny7oTmAe0Hx9jOM7AAMGCACdTe1M4U++/7/OVGip 1gnWEtMhHeQQbS7KPh1w8/1kvs5Mml6uGYQI44lKTDP7OHJQ9hIT/+5tfKPHIPhU M/7Mqa8y81c/AK+WUOyY9+uZ0zUxFGMqeU9z5iqJFWSi9QR/f5q/khfmqi5RFVyQ nnVhxBMB8pY1vZHV1CoL7NLK4c/N8mpwCiZ57LTsP8pLfDMWF/OopmM2ulzlfWTr anAdxQohenq/zTgSySX/VGZYSYvyAoXTRuU4USAVGWcUQPnVooA1N7lZP3pawjNP QMSukx9jI1673BPsPXxyQZ1PmmPt9eHKI0G0hNJG+FCmSRLNT/R7hqTzTUmpgMWM yyWPiEkEGBECAAkFAkCGpvkCGwwACgkQjGqWTlNTP642KACeITHq0b42P3oMX7Nj F5U3EaqCgYoAn3HxUB7ELB6vMUugW4aSmZpBJOR6 =ZaJO -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From lccha-baylisa at naos.org Mon Jun 14 19:31:39 2004 From: lccha-baylisa at naos.org (Lloyd C. Cha) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 19:31:39 -0700 Subject: UNIX scheduler product In-Reply-To: <5444A9998C69D5458C5330D1A64DE387E38A3E@kexbe1.ketera.com> References: <5444A9998C69D5458C5330D1A64DE387E38A3E@kexbe1.ketera.com> Message-ID: <20040615023139.GA18118@turtleville.lccha.org> Hi Ron - You might also consider LSF from Platform Computing (www.platform.com) and Flowtracer/NC from Runtime Design Automation (www.rtda.com) in addition to other tools mentioned already. -L Once upon a time (like on Jun 14, 2004), Ron Leedy wrote: > Does anyone know of a job scheduler with the following specs: > > - A centralized repository for several servers > - Flow control (success exits kick off releases another job) > - Alert e-mails for non-success exits > - History of scheduled jobs and exit statuses > - Solaris and Linux support > > Guess I want my days of working with MVS without paying the Big Blue > ticket > > Ron Leedy > Manager of Managed Services > Ketera, Inc. > Office: 408-572-9431 From trockij at transmeta.com Tue Jun 15 05:26:55 2004 From: trockij at transmeta.com (Jim Trocki) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 05:26:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UNIX scheduler product In-Reply-To: <40CE4C17.1030400@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, richard childers / kg6hac wrote: > What's wrong with a series of crontab entries, interoperation > coordinated through use of lock files, made visible via NFS? All > rock-solid technology, decades old now. *shudder* "lock files" over nfs are notoriously difficult if not impossible to do correctly due to a variety of reasons, most notably nfs client cacheing complications and implementation bugs/quirks. also, nfs does not completely support the the same semantics as a local filesystem (e.g. O_EXCL) and such support varies with nfsv2 vs. nfsv3, so you must be aware of that when choosing the lockfile method. if you google around there are some "dot-locking" algorithms which are purportedly nfs-safe (there is such code in exim which claims to be largely nfs-safe), but who knows, i've seen many a buggy nfs implementation. also, lock files are also prone to becoming stale when the lockers crash or are otherwise buggy, further complicating this mechanism. cron could really use a serialization feature, e.g. don't invoke the next job until the previous one has completed. i've seen a number of scripts meant to be invoked by cron include this mechanism, but it seems this is required often enough that it makes sense for cron to handle this rather than the individual job. From extasia at extasia.org Tue Jun 15 07:57:12 2004 From: extasia at extasia.org (David Alban) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 07:57:12 -0700 Subject: [baylisa] SIG-BEER-WEST this Saturday 6/19 in San Francisco Message-ID: <20040615075712.A29791@gerasimov.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 SIG-beer-west Saturday, June 19, 2004 at 6:00pm San Francisco, CA Beer. Mental stimulation. This event: Saturday, 06/19/2004, 6:00pm, at the [1]Zeitgeist Bar and Guest Haus, San Francisco Coming events (third Saturdays): Saturday, 07/17/2004, 6:00pm, location to be determined Saturday, 08/21/2004, 6:00pm, location to be determined Saturday, 09/18/2004, 6:00pm, location to be determined Saturday, 10/16/2004, 6:00pm, location to be determined San Francisco's next social event for techies and their friends, sig-beer-west, will take place at 6:00pm on Saturday, June 19, 2004 at [2]Zeitgeist Bar and Guest Haus located at [3]199 Valencia at Duboce in San Francisco, CA. [1] http://www.sonic.net/~wwpints/zeitgeist/ [2] http://www.sonic.net/~wwpints/zeitgeist/ [3] http://tinyurl.com/2hacx According to their website, Zeitgeist has: [4]plenty of drafts, mostly micro-brewed beers, a good selection of call liquors, a beer garden, and hotel accomodation [4] http://www.sonic.net/~wwpints/zeitgeist/#Beers Concerning food, they say: the grill opens around 6.00 p.m. each day and closes when everyone's fed (or Aundre's fed up) Festivities will start at 6:00pm and continue until we've all left. Zeitgeist is on the [5]corner of Valencia and Duboce and [6]looks like this. It's [7]three blocks from the 16th St BART station (16th St and Mission). [5] http://tinyurl.com/2hacx [6] http://www.sonic.net/~wwpints/zeitgeist/exterior.html [7] http://tinyurl.com/3f8mp When you show up, you should look for some kind of home made sig-beer-west sign. We will try to make it obvious who we are. :-) Note: Please look for the sig-beer-west sign, not for a particular person. sig-beer-west may have different hosts from month to month. Everyone is welcome at this event. We mean it! Please feel free to forward this information and to invite friends, co-workers, and others (all of legal drinking age) who might enjoy lifting a glass with interesting folks from all over the place. Can't come this month? Mark your calendar for next month. (Do it now before you forget!) sig-beer-west occurs on the third Saturday of each month. Any questions, comments, suggestions of things to do later on that evening, or new venue suggestions ... email the current sig-beer-west Instigator . The Instigator's Username is extasia. The Instigator's email address is *the Username* at *the Username* dot *org*. sig-beer-west FAQ 1. Q: Your announcement says "techies and their friends". How do I know if I'm a techie, or a friend of one? A: Well, actually, you don't have to be a techie to attend. You just have to be able to find the sig-beer-west sign at this month's event. That's it. Simple, huh? 2. Q: I'm not really a beer person. In fact I'm interested in hanging out, but not in drinking. Would I be welcome? A: Absolutely! The point is to hang out with fun, interesting folks. Please do join us. 3. Q: Is parking difficult in the city, like maybe I should factor this into my travel time? A: Yes. Note for June 2004: Zeitgeist is [9]three blocks from 16th St BART. You may want to consider [10]BARTing and not worrying at all about parking. [9] http://tinyurl.com/3f8mp [10] http://www.bart.gov/ __________________________________________________________________ sig-beer-west was started in February 2002 when a couple Washington, D.C. based systems administrators who moved to the San Francisco Bay area wanted to continue a [11]dc-sage tradition, sig-beer, which is described in dc-sage web space as: SIG-beer, as in "Special Interest Group - Beer" ala ACM, or as in "send the BEER signal to that process". The original SIG-beer gathering takes place in Washington DC, usually on the first Saturday night of the month. [11] http://www.dc-sage.org/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAzw4WPh0M9c/OpdARAkVmAKC85dmVGkqbxP6FAWj6DI0r5NZkTQCdHp1T YLFPnfHRk4Ln+wIY8LXYEUY= =nfIs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From chuck+baylisa at snew.com Tue Jun 15 11:37:39 2004 From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:37:39 -0400 Subject: UNIX scheduler product In-Reply-To: <20040614151723.N14847@escape.org> References: <5444A9998C69D5458C5330D1A64DE387E38A3E@kexbe1.ketera.com> <20040614151723.N14847@escape.org> Message-ID: <20040615183739.GA28707@2004.snew.com> Quoting Marco Nicosia (marco at escape.org): > We've looked at Computer Associate's AutoSys, but it seemed to be > overkill for a simple centralized cron-replacement. It's a part of > CA's massive UniCenter line. Forgot about this. Yeah, we used to use this at a client on around 500 machines (pre-CA. CA buying a company tripped an expiration clause in our contracts usually sending us scrambling for replacements). If this is too complex for the OP, then perhaps offering detail of goals and tasks is warranted. As I said, I believe CFEngine can be pretty powerful in some simpler cases of distributed cron (or even just distribuTING crontab files). From david at catwhisker.org Tue Jun 15 11:46:31 2004 From: david at catwhisker.org (David Wolfskill) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 11:46:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UNIX scheduler product In-Reply-To: <20040615183739.GA28707@2004.snew.com> Message-ID: <200406151846.i5FIkVTF009752@bunrab.catwhisker.org> >Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:37:39 -0400 >From: Chuck Yerkes >To: baylisa at baylisa.org >Subject: Re: UNIX scheduler product >Sender: owner-baylisa at baylisa.org >(pre-CA. CA buying a company tripped an expiration clause in our >contracts usually sending us scrambling for replacements). Hoo, boy! Does *that* ever bring back memories of a dozen years as an MVS systems programmer (IBM mainframe-speak for "sysadmin", pretty much: there sure wasn't much programming (per se) involved... usually :-}). Peace, david -- David H. Wolfskill david at catwhisker.org I do not "unsubscribe" from email "services" to which I have not explicitly subscribed. Rather, I block spammers' access to SMTP servers I control, and encourage others who are in a position to do so to do likewise. From strata at virtual.net Tue Jun 15 12:09:41 2004 From: strata at virtual.net (Strata R Chalup) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 12:09:41 -0700 Subject: Imminent Death of BayLISA / July Board Meeting Invitation Message-ID: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> I got a verbal one-line blurb from our backup speaker via cellphone last night. Not even an email, just a cellphone call. In 2001 we celebrated BayLISA's 10th anniversary as the oldest sysadmin organization, predating the founding of even SAGE or New Jersey's venerable #group. Here in 2004, we can't seem to even get speakers lined up more than a week in advance of the meeting. This sucks. This sucks MIGHTILY. Membership is at a historic low, people aren't showing up for meetings, and even the board members aren't showing up for meetings-- or making much effort to read their email or hand off their action items. I'm as guilty as anyone, despite trying to take the ball and run with it for a few months. It's a bit too disheartening when ALL of the board officers punt on most of their responsibilities. We're all friends here, we're all chronically overbusy, and we try to be understanding rather than rag on each other. But if this organization is going to LIVE, that's gotta change. Let's all get together and clean house. All meaning all-- past Board members, past and current general members, and most especially anyone who gives a darn but has held back or pulled back from becoming involved because they could see the slow, leisurely death-spiral building over the past few years. If we want there to be a BayLISA, it takes work. If people don't care, they should just say that it's outlived its usefulness. We can consult our legal advisor and make some provision for dissolving the group and handing its meager assets off to some other nonprofit, and our tape library off to the Computer History Museum. So? BayLISA or no BayLISA? Start the discussion now, and join us on JULY FIRST for a discussion with the Board. Our Board meetings are always open, but this time I hope that we'll pack the halls and GET THINGS DONE. Bring speaker contact info, suggestions, volunteer to lend a hand, commit to running for Board in the November elections. Strata Chalup BayLISA Board member 1997 - 1999, 2000 - 2004 BayLISA past president 1999 -- ======================================================================== Strata Rose Chalup [KF6NBZ] strata "@" virtual.net VirtualNet Consulting http://www.virtual.net/ ** Project Management & Architecture for ISP/ASP Systems Integration ** ========================================================================= From deirdre at deirdre.net Tue Jun 15 12:22:09 2004 From: deirdre at deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse Moen) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 12:22:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Imminent Death of BayLISA / July Board Meeting Invitation In-Reply-To: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jun 2004, Strata R Chalup wrote: > Start the discussion now, and join us on JULY FIRST for a discussion > with the Board. Our Board meetings are always open, but this time I > hope that we'll pack the halls and GET THINGS DONE. Bring speaker > contact info, suggestions, volunteer to lend a hand, commit to running > for Board in the November elections. While I do care (a lot), there's also the sad reality that both Rick and I will be enroute to Phoenix for Westercon on Thursday, July 1. I suspect that Heather may be as well. -- _Deirdre http://deirdre.net "Memes are a hoax! Pass it on!" From strata at virtual.net Tue Jun 15 12:32:21 2004 From: strata at virtual.net (Strata R Chalup) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 12:32:21 -0700 Subject: Imminent Death of BayLISA / July Board Meeting Invitation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40CF4EC5.80708@virtual.net> Well, we've got almost 3 weeks to brainstorm via email, so let's make the most of it. Depending on your schedule and where you'll be (eg actually in the air or in a hotel with access to a phone), it's likely that we could get you involved. You have a lot of experience from BayCon and other places in helping to make things work, so I'm really looking forward to getting your input on how we can turn things around! Deirdre Saoirse Moen wrote: > While I do care (a lot), there's also the sad reality that both Rick and I > will be enroute to Phoenix for Westercon on Thursday, July 1. I suspect > that Heather may be as well. -- ======================================================================== Strata Rose Chalup [KF6NBZ] strata "@" virtual.net VirtualNet Consulting http://www.virtual.net/ ** Project Management & Architecture for ISP/ASP Systems Integration ** ========================================================================= From david at catwhisker.org Tue Jun 15 12:44:53 2004 From: david at catwhisker.org (David Wolfskill) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 12:44:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Imminent Death of BayLISA / July Board Meeting Invitation In-Reply-To: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> Message-ID: <200406151944.i5FJirqU009942@bunrab.catwhisker.org> >Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 12:09:41 -0700 >From: Strata R Chalup >Reply-To: strata at virtual.net >To: BayLISA Board , baylisa >In 2001 we celebrated BayLISA's 10th anniversary as the oldest sysadmin >organization, predating the founding of even SAGE or New Jersey's >venerable #group. Here in 2004, we can't seem to even get speakers >lined up more than a week in advance of the meeting. >This sucks. This sucks MIGHTILY. Quite agreed. I note that during the commute either last night or this morning, I had the radio on KLIV during one of their nn:54 2-minute series on "The Economy and Silicon Valley;" the interviewee commented that he'd been in the Valley for some time, and there have always been economic cycles of about 10 years duration (though the current recession, in his opinion, seemed to be dragging on longer than usual). Having been un{,der}employed myself for well over 2 years now, I can't help but suspect that many of those who might otherwise contribute are being adversely affected by the current phase of the economic cycle. I certainly know colleagues in BayLISA who show symptoms of depression. (Caveat: I am not now, nor have I ever been, a health care professional. The above is an observation from a sympathetic perspective; it is certainly not a diagnosis.) And when a person is struggling to make ends meet, it can be difficult to allocate resources to activities that are not perceived as essential. So how do we get BayLISA to be perceived as *essential*? The Murky News (and other sources) are reporting somewhat encouraging signs -- of course, the statistics are all cooked depending on whoever is funding the study in question. On the other hand, a lot of the economy appears based on the Tinkerbell Principle, so truth/falsehood is less critical than "Does this support my beliefs?" as far as the economy goes. [No, I don't know if anyone else calls it that, but figured that it captured the essence of the approach succinctly.] Would it, perhaps, be useful if BayLISA assisted in some way with (re-)training? Of course, it's easy for me to ask such things: I tend to cope by reacting to others' statements of needs or requirements, rather than creating things like lesson plans.... :-{ I better cut this off now. Peace, david -- David H. Wolfskill david at catwhisker.org I do not "unsubscribe" from email "services" to which I have not explicitly subscribed. Rather, I block spammers' access to SMTP servers I control, and encourage others who are in a position to do so to do likewise. From mark at bitshift.org Tue Jun 15 12:50:18 2004 From: mark at bitshift.org (Mark C. Langston) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 12:50:18 -0700 Subject: Imminent Death of BayLISA / July Board Meeting Invitation In-Reply-To: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> Message-ID: <20040615195018.GG797@bitshift.org> On Tue, Jun 15, 2004 at 12:09:41PM -0700, Strata R Chalup wrote: > I got a verbal one-line blurb from our backup speaker via cellphone > last night. Not even an email, just a cellphone call. > > In 2001 we celebrated BayLISA's 10th anniversary as the oldest sysadmin > organization, predating the founding of even SAGE or New Jersey's > venerable #group. Here in 2004, we can't seem to even get speakers > lined up more than a week in advance of the meeting. > I've been horribly remiss in showing up to the various organizational meetings I try to hit, most notably SVLUG and BayLISA. I haven't given a talk in a long while, but since it looks like three of the papers I was planning to present at upcoming conferences were passed over, I could put something together for July. The presentations were two separate approaches to backchannel communications; one, working code demonstrating a difficult-to-detect, difficult-to-block point-to-point covert communications mechanism; the other, a conceptual approach to sending data through any firewall, even one that blocks /everything/. I had originally planned to have working code for this as well, but various things have pulled me in other directions, and I never got around to it. I could speak on covert communications channels in general, focusing on these two approaches. I find that thinking about ccc's are a good way to find nonobvious and/or novel approaches to problems. Alternately, I could talk about an inter-host divergence tool I'm working on. There's working code, but it's rather rough at the moment, and needs to be optimized. I was planning on presenting it as a WIP at LISA, since the paper submission didn't have enough detail for the selection committee. It'd give me a chance to present, flesh out, and discuss the various metrics and what they'd mean for sysadmins. The other two items I've got on tap (extraterrestrial hackers and sysadmin documentation) are both accepted papers at conferences, and as such I don't think I'm allowed to present them prior to their respective conferences. (P.S. to src: I know you hit me up for one of these a few weeks back. I was meaning to offer to speak since I finally gave up last week on those papers being accepted, so now's as good a time as any, I suppose.) -- Mark C. Langston Sr. Unix SysAdmin mark at bitshift.org mark at seti.org Systems & Network Admin SETI Institute http://bitshift.org http://www.seti.org From deirdre at deirdre.net Tue Jun 15 13:03:22 2004 From: deirdre at deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse Moen) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:03:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Imminent Death of BayLISA / July Board Meeting Invitation In-Reply-To: <40CF4EC5.80708@virtual.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jun 2004, Strata R Chalup wrote: > Well, we've got almost 3 weeks to brainstorm via email, so let's make > the most of it. Depending on your schedule and where you'll be (eg > actually in the air or in a hotel with access to a phone), it's likely > that we could get you involved. We'll be on either I-5 or I-10, depending. > You have a lot of experience from BayCon and other places in helping > to make things work, so I'm really looking forward to getting your > input on how we can turn things around! Thank you. I've certainly been one of the people with divided attention, alas running on cooperative multitasking (that didn't cooperate) instead of pre-emptive multitasking. I agree with David's points about depression being a factor, especially as someone who has been un/underemployed for 3+ years. One thing might be finding out what people are interested in learning about as well as what problems they have (other than simply finding a job). A resume workshop (instead of a speaker proper) may also prove popular. -- _Deirdre http://deirdre.net "Memes are a hoax! Pass it on!" From trockij at transmeta.com Tue Jun 15 13:05:20 2004 From: trockij at transmeta.com (Jim Trocki) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:05:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Imminent Death of BayLISA / July Board Meeting Invitation In-Reply-To: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jun 2004, Strata R Chalup wrote: > In 2001 we celebrated BayLISA's 10th anniversary as the oldest sysadmin > organization, predating the founding of even SAGE or New Jersey's > venerable #group. I think you mean $GROUPNAME, and fwiw, we've been stagnating lately, also. From star at starshine.org Tue Jun 15 13:08:28 2004 From: star at starshine.org (Heather Stern) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:08:28 -0700 Subject: Imminent Death of BayLISA / July Board Meeting Invitation In-Reply-To: References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> Message-ID: <20040615200828.GA5397@starshine.org> On Tue, Jun 15, 2004 at 12:22:09PM -0700, Deirdre Saoirse Moen wrote: > On Tue, 15 Jun 2004, Strata R Chalup wrote: > > > Start the discussion now, and join us on JULY FIRST for a discussion > > with the Board. Our Board meetings are always open, but this time I > > hope that we'll pack the halls and GET THINGS DONE. Bring speaker > > contact info, suggestions, volunteer to lend a hand, commit to running > > for Board in the November elections. > > While I do care (a lot), there's also the sad reality that both Rick and I > will be enroute to Phoenix for Westercon on Thursday, July 1. I suspect > that Heather may be as well. Incorrect; I'm very fannish but I usually only go to Westercon in L.A. or *sometimes* Oregon (because Jim has friends there). Essentially we keep our purses tighter in midsummer. I am working on a nice glitzy slide-kit as I do this; I'm the backup speaker and I'm really sorry I couldn't do better than a oneliner yesterday; allergies have been hell. I'll take whatever meds are necessary to be useful on stage. *proper* blurbo in a few minutes, seperate msg. I'm doing what I can *this week* to see if we'll have a proper speaker to announce at the meeting... and if so I'll have flyers, which I will encourage our members to take to all the reasonable places, and clone the heck out of. Employee lunchroom, etc. But also, if some would feel inclined to drop by the geeky bookstores so they'll know about our meetings? -* Heather Stern * President - BayLISA Board * http://www.baylisa.org/ *- From mark at bitshift.org Tue Jun 15 13:09:53 2004 From: mark at bitshift.org (Mark C. Langston) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:09:53 -0700 Subject: Imminent Death of BayLISA / July Board Meeting Invitation In-Reply-To: References: <40CF4EC5.80708@virtual.net> Message-ID: <20040615200953.GH797@bitshift.org> On Tue, Jun 15, 2004 at 01:03:22PM -0700, Deirdre Saoirse Moen wrote: > > One thing might be finding out what people are interested in learning > about as well as what problems they have (other than simply finding a > job). A resume workshop (instead of a speaker proper) may also prove > popular. > Personally, I'd like to see someone hold forth on the various stumbling blocks and methods of implementing CARP and pfsync on OpenBSD. But only because I'm faced with doing it, and external resources seem to be rather scarce at the present time. We could have a rousing debate on SPF/Caller-ID/MARID/RMX/etc., but it may be expensive to hire the security force and ambulances. -- Mark C. Langston Sr. Unix SysAdmin mark at bitshift.org mark at seti.org Systems & Network Admin SETI Institute http://bitshift.org http://www.seti.org From k6dlc at arrl.net Tue Jun 15 13:19:53 2004 From: k6dlc at arrl.net (Daniel Curry) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:19:53 -0700 Subject: Imminent Death of BayLISA / July Board Meeting Invitation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40CF59E9.4050805@arrl.net> Deirdre Saoirse Moen wrote: > One thing might be finding out what people are interested in learning > about as well as what problems they have (other than simply finding a > job). A resume workshop (instead of a speaker proper) may also prove > popular. > I totally agree with Deirdre on having a speaker or better yet a workshop on doing resumes. There are some of us who have many year of experience, but do not have that four year degree. I for one could use some help on how to write my resume to get pass that HR and/or JOBS( non technical)person who job is to see buzz words. If some of you had not noticed, but Goggle is the worst case hear in the valley. They are constantly sending out "ghost jobs." Thank you, -- Daniel Curry AD5A 96DC 7556 A020 B8E7 0E4D 5D5E 9BA5 C83E 8C92 From david at catwhisker.org Tue Jun 15 13:16:13 2004 From: david at catwhisker.org (David Wolfskill) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:16:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Imminent Death of BayLISA / July Board Meeting Invitation In-Reply-To: <20040615200953.GH797@bitshift.org> Message-ID: <200406152016.i5FKGDup010151@bunrab.catwhisker.org> >Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:09:53 -0700 >From: "Mark C. Langston" >To: BayLISA Board , baylisa >Subject: Re: Imminent Death of BayLISA / July Board Meeting Invitation >Sender: owner-blw at baylisa.org >We could have a rousing debate on SPF/Caller-ID/MARID/RMX/etc., but it >may be expensive to hire the security force and ambulances. On the other hand, the discussion might provide additional regexen for postmaster at baylisa.org to filter messages at the MTA. :-} Peace, david (current hat: I'll let you guess) -- David H. Wolfskill david at catwhisker.org I do not "unsubscribe" from email "services" to which I have not explicitly subscribed. Rather, I block spammers' access to SMTP servers I control, and encourage others who are in a position to do so to do likewise. From star at starshine.org Tue Jun 15 13:32:21 2004 From: star at starshine.org (Heather Stern) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:32:21 -0700 Subject: Imminent Death of BayLISA / July Board Meeting Invitation In-Reply-To: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> Message-ID: <20040615203221.GB5397@starshine.org> On Tue, Jun 15, 2004 at 12:09:41PM -0700, Strata R Chalup wrote: > I got a verbal one-line blurb from our backup speaker via cellphone > last night. Not even an email, just a cellphone call. I repeat my apology of being under the gun of the allergy monster. I seem to be better today for what that's worth. I'd like to request that the next backup speaker "on the hook" prep your title and your blurb - and your bio if you want to - even if you don't feel inclined to do your slide kit until you're tagged It. That will allow us to be able to put you on in the push of a button instead of holding up things any further if things are already past "late". With no further ado here's a much more proper blurbo. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Pass Thru Auto Bot: Technical Support's automated responder First conceived as a gentle form of a receptionist for the email queue, this autobot became the handiest "new hire" for technical support teams at more than one large company, and made a friendlier customer experience at the same time. "Hiring" your bot takes some planning, preventing its use as a thirdparty spammer, and some sense of the corporate image to portray, but the effort is well worth it. Procmail is found in all modern variants of UNIX. Last we'll look at the potential beyond its original uses, for any helpdesk environment. . . . . . Heather Stern, Starshine Technical Services www.starshine.org/star/ Heather Stern has been an active system administrator for many years, a professional in the Silicon Valley area since 1995, and is especially well known in the local Linux community as an expert in laptops, unusual hardware configurations, and the X window system. She last spoke for BayLISA in 1999. . | . Heather Stern | star at starshine.org --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - consulting at starshine.org ' | ` Sysadmin Support and Training | (800) 938-4078 From jxh at jxh.com Tue Jun 15 13:36:37 2004 From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:36:37 -0500 Subject: Imminent Death of BayLISA / July Board Meeting Invitation In-Reply-To: <20040615200953.GH797@bitshift.org> References: <40CF4EC5.80708@virtual.net> <20040615200953.GH797@bitshift.org> Message-ID: <2147483647.1087313797@216-127-207-59.strgbay.dcwis.com> > Personally, I'd like to see someone hold forth on the various stumbling > blocks and methods of implementing CARP and pfsync on OpenBSD. But only > because I'm faced with doing it, and external resources seem to be > rather scarce at the present time. This is the sort of reason I started going to these meetings. Yes, let's do this one! > We could have a rousing debate on SPF/Caller-ID/MARID/RMX/etc., but it > may be expensive to hire the security force and ambulances. I would fly to California to witness this one. It matches the previous paragraph, for me: I'm sending mail out as jxh at mirapoint.com but using my own relay, which isn't in the TXT record at work. Same story. This is a good pattern: We just need to reinforce it. From jxh at jxh.com Tue Jun 15 13:39:39 2004 From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:39:39 -0500 Subject: Imminent Death of BayLISA / July Board Meeting Invitation In-Reply-To: <40CF59E9.4050805@arrl.net> References: <40CF59E9.4050805@arrl.net> Message-ID: <2147483647.1087313979@216-127-207-59.strgbay.dcwis.com> > a workshop on doing resumes. There are some of us who have many year of > experience, but do not have that four year degree. Ditto. I used to say "after twenty years they stop asking," but I guess that's not strictly correct these days. I worked for small companies most of my career, as a result. But their money is green, too. Maybe it takes a focus on which (segment of the) job market to go after? From jxh at jxh.com Tue Jun 15 13:34:28 2004 From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:34:28 -0500 Subject: Imminent Death of BayLISA / July Board Meeting Invitation In-Reply-To: <200406151944.i5FJirqU009942@bunrab.catwhisker.org> References: <200406151944.i5FJirqU009942@bunrab.catwhisker.org> Message-ID: <2147483647.1087313668@216-127-207-59.strgbay.dcwis.com> --On Tuesday, June 15, 2004 12:44 -0700 David Wolfskill wrote: > perspective; it is certainly not a diagnosis.) And when a person is > struggling to make ends meet, it can be difficult to allocate resources > to activities that are not perceived as essential. > > So how do we get BayLISA to be perceived as *essential*? Two comments: 1. I always perceived BayLISA as pretty close to essential to my mental health; I explained it to third parties as "my support group" in fact. But I had a job through all of that, so maybe your point is valid. If it has anything to offer along these lines, though, it should be _more_ sought-after these days, not less. I think a resume workshop is a dandy idea. A general bitch session, or more-structured survey about the job market, would likely also be popular. In the later years, I went along as much to gauge the job market as to hear the technical topic. 2. Work on the reality, and the perception will come. Go out and buy (or otherwise obtain) a copy of _Marketing Without Advertising_ by Philips et al, from Nolo Press. Get over the M word in the title: the message of the book really is to stick to your knitting, create something of value, don't waste money on advertising but _do_ get yourself "listed" in the places where people will look for your service. And encourage people to refer their friends to your service. BayLISA is non-commercial, but these principles still apply. Getting our events listed far and wide has always seemed to be a huge problem, but it really isn't: It just takes someone (a) knowing what to list far enough in advance, and (b) pushing a few buttons. And you can always announce a meeting even if the topic and speaker aren't yet known. On referrals, how about some testimonials from people who have found jobs through BayLISA? I'm afraid I don't remember his (your) name, but one fellow came to _one meeting_, met Adam Sah, came out to dinner afterward (very important) and was working for Addamark a week or two later. I sat next to this chap at dinner; he was pleasant and engaging, and long-term unemployed at that moment. But networking worked, for him; he had a positive (apparent) attitude, and was actively working this angle. Maybe he or someone could give a seminar on how to do this. Heaven knows sysadmins as a class aren't naturals at schmoozing this way. (I still have to work at it.) But like any skill it can be learned. > Would it, perhaps, be useful if BayLISA assisted in some way with > (re-)training? Of course, it's easy for me to ask such things: I tend > to cope by reacting to others' statements of needs or requirements, > rather than creating things like lesson plans.... :-{ OK, what training do you have in mind? There are plenty of for-fee outlets with books and all that, but I think "master classes", with an extempore speaker and no money changing hands, could fill a need and be something that BayLISA is well able to provide. This could just be the regular meeting, but called something new. (Think marketing: List the meetings in places where people look for training.) > I better cut this off now. LOL! Me, too. See ya (sort of) at the July 1 meeting. I live in St. Paul now, but I still work in this business (more or less), and my employer is still in Sunnyvale, so I travel there 3 or 4 times a year. So I can stay involved somehow, if it's wanted. From rsr at inorganic.org Tue Jun 15 13:48:28 2004 From: rsr at inorganic.org (Roy S. Rapoport) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:48:28 -0700 Subject: Imminent Death of BayLISA / July Board Meeting Invitation In-Reply-To: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> Message-ID: <20040615204828.GA5046@puppy.inorganic.org> This is a very important topic. I'll ... get around to responding to it. Maybe next month ... :) On Tue, Jun 15, 2004 at 12:09:41PM -0700, Strata R Chalup wrote: [deleted] It seems that BayLISA's trouble symptoms could be summarized as: 1. Lack of active interest from board members (I use 'active interest' to mean "I know y'all care a lot and would love to put in time; the actual interface to you seems to show you not doing so"); 2. Lack of active interest from current members (who don't show up for meetings); 3. Lack of active interest from potential members (who don't sign up) 4. [inferred] Lack of active interest from people who might make a presentation Are any of these more critical or leading to the others? What would happen if member ranks expanded by 1000%? What would happen if, instead, meeting membership expanded by 1000%? What if Sergey Brin said "hey, I'd like to do a presentation on this little company I'm running and what we're doing"? > handing its meager assets off to some other nonprofit, and our tape > library off to the Computer History Museum. Err, could we perhaps start with migrating the tape library to some other medium that's more late-20th-century? Say, VCD or DVD? VCD has the advantage of being dirt cheap to duplicate. > So? BayLISA or no BayLISA? BayLISA! BayLISA! And one of these days, I really will make it to a meeting! :) For me, the biggest impediment to coming to meetings has been finding someone to go with. I like going to the meetings alone about as much as I like going to the movies alone, or to dinner. I got involved in BayLISA because I was working for Alberto and he went pretty much every time, taking me with him; lately, I'd been having something of a problem getting any of my sysadmin friends to go. It's also a location thing, really -- living in Brisbane, it's felt a little far to go. If I'm very, very, very lucky and good, it's possible my next job (I'm going through the interview cycle now) will be in Mountain View, and I suspect it'll be easier to make it. And of course, the membership thing follows the attendance thing -- I was a member for a year, I seem to recall, but afterward looked back and decided that maybe paying $35 and going once in that year was ... an unfortunate cost/benefit ratio :) -roy From rsr at inorganic.org Tue Jun 15 13:55:12 2004 From: rsr at inorganic.org (Roy S. Rapoport) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:55:12 -0700 Subject: Imminent Death of BayLISA / July Board Meeting Invitation In-Reply-To: <40CF59E9.4050805@arrl.net> References: <40CF59E9.4050805@arrl.net> Message-ID: <20040615205512.GB5046@puppy.inorganic.org> On Tue, Jun 15, 2004 at 01:19:53PM -0700, Daniel Curry wrote: > If some of you had not noticed, but Goggle is the worst case hear > in the valley. They are constantly sending out "ghost jobs." Define 'ghost jobs'? To the best of my knowledge, all of Google's jobs are real and, if you're the Son of God and can walk on water, you could actually get them. At Google, much like everywhere else, it pays to know someone who can get your resume in; while they're large enough, at this point, that it seems that "Oh, that guy knows this person, lets give them a job" is definitely not the case, I do think they look at internally-submitted resumes a little harder (and you benefit by actually knowing where in the process your resume is -- it looks like internal submitters are automatically updated as to the status of the resume, including steps that applicants are not told about, like "Oh, I guess it's good enough for someone who actually knows about the job to look at the resume."). Disclaimer: I don't work for Google -roy From holland at guidancetech.com Tue Jun 15 14:03:45 2004 From: holland at guidancetech.com (Rich Holland) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 17:03:45 -0400 Subject: UNIX scheduler product In-Reply-To: <20040615183739.GA28707@2004.snew.com> Message-ID: <20040615210437.C0CB013927A@puzzle.pobox.com> Wow. I thought *MY* former company was the only one with a "non-CA" clause in their contracts. We had the same thing with TS-Reorg when they bought Platinum (an oracle database reorg tool). We weren't using AutoSys at that client -- we went with Tivoli's equivalent (called "Maestro" at the time). One nice thing about these tools is they include "plugins" for multiple systems. You can have a job stream with dependencies that calls unix scripts, oracle SQL*Plus scripts, mainframe JCL scripts, ABAP programs within your SAP system, etc. They're incredibly handy for automating interfaces between disparate systems. -- Rich Holland (913) 645-1950 SAP Technical Consultant print unpack("u","92G5S\=\"!A;F]T:&5R(\'!E -----Original Message----- > From: owner-baylisa at baylisa.org [mailto:owner-baylisa at baylisa.org] On Behalf > Of Chuck Yerkes > Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 1:38 PM > To: baylisa at baylisa.org > Subject: Re: UNIX scheduler product > > Quoting Marco Nicosia (marco at escape.org): > > We've looked at Computer Associate's AutoSys, but it seemed to be > > overkill for a simple centralized cron-replacement. It's a part of > > CA's massive UniCenter line. > > Forgot about this. Yeah, we used to use this at a client on > around 500 machines (pre-CA. CA buying a company tripped an > expiration clause in our contracts usually sending us scrambling > for replacements). > > If this is too complex for the OP, then perhaps offering detail of > goals and tasks is warranted. > > > As I said, I believe CFEngine can be pretty powerful in some simpler > cases of distributed cron (or even just distribuTING crontab files). From rsr at inorganic.org Tue Jun 15 14:43:37 2004 From: rsr at inorganic.org (Roy S. Rapoport) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:43:37 -0700 Subject: FS / inode / vnode refresher Message-ID: <20040615214337.GA1701@puppy.inorganic.org> I've been a sysadmin for about 12 years now, and have a pretty decent understanding of most things sysadmin. I've got enough of an understanding of how the UNIX filesystem works to explain, say, how files are stored, in general, what inodes are, and what the diff between symlinks and hard links is. I need to bone up on the lower-level details for an interview next week. Having already done this on the network side (TCP/IP Illustrated is your friend), I'm looking for refresher material on filesystem organization, hopefully at a similar level (in other words, I'm looking for something deeper than "a directory contains a bunch of files" and something a little more relevant and high-level than "here's the code to directly manipulate inodes"). At the same time, I have to shamefully admit that I'm trying to figure out what the difference between an inode and a vnode is (remember, there are no stupid questions, only stupid people). Any pointers? -roy From rjwitte at rjwitte.com Tue Jun 15 14:48:49 2004 From: rjwitte at rjwitte.com (Russel J. Witte) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:48:49 -0700 Subject: Imminent Death of BayLISA / July Board Meeting Invitation In-Reply-To: <20040615204828.GA5046@puppy.inorganic.org> Message-ID: Location has also been an issue for me (live in Alameda and work in SF). I could just make it down to Palo Alto with difficulty by 7:30 ... Cupertino is impossible. But I always assumed that the majority of active members were in the Valley, so I haven't been complaining... now that my presence is missed ... I'm speaking up. Russ From dsmith at FinancialEngines.com Tue Jun 15 14:54:48 2004 From: dsmith at FinancialEngines.com (David Smith) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:54:48 -0700 Subject: FS / inode / vnode refresher Message-ID: <6CE579EA6AB29040BEA6785E0150DE65181DED@inf-exch-pa-01.fngn.com> Re: your last question, Google is your friend. http://www.cs.utk.edu/~plank/plank/classes/cs360/360/notes/Dup/lecture.h tml The difference between a vnode and an inode is where it's located and when it's valid. Inodes are located on disk and are always valid because they contain information that is always needed such as ownership and protection. Vnodes are located in the operating system's memory, and only exist when a file is opened. However, just one vnode exists for every physical file that is opened. ---- David Smith Voice: 650-565-7750 Fax: 650-565-4905 432F 465C 5866 FC46 5B19 EAC6 AED3 E032 F49B 62CF -----Original Message----- From: Roy S. Rapoport [mailto:rsr at inorganic.org] Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 2:44 PM To: baylisa at baylisa.org Subject: FS / inode / vnode refresher I've been a sysadmin for about 12 years now, and have a pretty decent understanding of most things sysadmin. I've got enough of an understanding of how the UNIX filesystem works to explain, say, how files are stored, in general, what inodes are, and what the diff between symlinks and hard links is. I need to bone up on the lower-level details for an interview next week. Having already done this on the network side (TCP/IP Illustrated is your friend), I'm looking for refresher material on filesystem organization, hopefully at a similar level (in other words, I'm looking for something deeper than "a directory contains a bunch of files" and something a little more relevant and high-level than "here's the code to directly manipulate inodes"). At the same time, I have to shamefully admit that I'm trying to figure out what the difference between an inode and a vnode is (remember, there are no stupid questions, only stupid people). Any pointers? -roy From fscked at pacbell.net Tue Jun 15 15:05:40 2004 From: fscked at pacbell.net (richard childers / kg6hac) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:05:40 -0700 Subject: Imminent Death of BayLISA / July Board Meeting Invitation In-Reply-To: <200406151944.i5FJirqU009942@bunrab.catwhisker.org> References: <200406151944.i5FJirqU009942@bunrab.catwhisker.org> Message-ID: <40CF72B4.9010709@pacbell.net> David Wolfskill wrote: >Would it, perhaps, be useful if BayLISA assisted in some way with >(re-)training? Of course, it's easy for me to ask such things: I tend >to cope by reacting to others' statements of needs or requirements, >rather than creating things like lesson plans.... :-{ > I second this motion. By saying so, I underline the fact that the Internet decreases the need for physical meetings, and allows meetings to be carried out, virtually, perhaps over longer periods of time. I have seen IRC servers used to coordinate software development across international borders and diverse time zones. BayLISA could do something similar. Indeed, with email lists, they already have. However, I digress. Couldn't most of the organizational business be carried out remotely, at a penalty in response time? Motions, calls for votes, etc. Keeping minutes is as simple as Cc:ing an alias to a file, whose absolute path places it within a web server's DocumentRoot. However, I again digress. I think there is no lack of people who know stuff, amongst the ranks. It would be nice to give these people an opportunity to speak. A little public exposure and a little experience at public speaking never hurt anyone. It could be in response to a call for anyone who thinks they are an expert in topic T ... or it could be a queue of people who would like to address their fellow geeks on some subject which they believe is of interest to their peers; let the cheers, or jeers, decide, as a natural feedback mechanism that needs no improvement. In response to David's specific comments, it might, for instance, be someone who wishes to test their lesson plan, before offering a small class at the local community college in some small technical topic. 'Introduction to JavaScript', say, or 'Installing FreeBSD for Dummies'. Fifteen minutes per seminar; five minutes per person; use a big digital timer as an enforcement mechanism. Signup sheet at the back of the hall. One per person per meeting. And what about the potential inventors amongst us, who have a product that might be of interest to their fellow administrators - lovingly developed, in their garage, in a tradition decades if not centuries old [insert clip from Disney's 'Chitty-Chitty Bang-Bang', here] - who lack only a forum with which to cost-effectively demonstrate their product, to potential investors, purchasers, customers? Again, five minutes per person; use a big digital timer as an enforcement mechanism. Signup sheet at the back of the hall. One per person per meeting. Food for thought ... Regards, -- richard -- Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services 945 Taraval Street, #105 San Francisco, CA 94116 USA [011.]1.415.759.5571 http://www.daemonized.com -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) mQGiBECGpfsRBACoPJJfIIrWAqjlW92TtYCtY//e7OW8alWylr/1ygtSQzjCCdvC Ysa0fCcx01UenlWV+5YY/zC7KPsX2rQUKAs20fqs9et74dmgMGOj0vMjTzWEs29G FyAsIRSpFioa8zzrjXEUVnU6OFaD9a9eaC+LSTCiKgXjbQySDKM5T1c+vwCg8W3Y RZ83LRIUULGMPlY6zS4fQwUEAIIiTHDdWpbE+HeREJwH+4eDpGVf76XtNlOMXrt9 tJ3ExL+9ezLulg1nCrOYodOB7TEZqzV40R7emDZSX0hI9QEBCv6nW5aDVpw/bf+q UEHwxrUvE2LBi35hoqR2QwqNlagOauSorWj8Qm/31luxJVeLVy1A1czp6B/mvG1T co03A/9a5kzEAebJ5TzWXQC2/4gu/osXQnrw9B9FFpYOtLc0MNQuAFt8VLn5yO5Q 8T58w+FQvFI5FqzI5URmjQeEyWWuyIechknk4RnwIO1UPVjgRTuNgf9/TvNNfqpa aVlbNp+AG21D6VqsFN2zJFFJeUqiYdXw6i+ESL3SZRymIhwYWrQ8UmljaGFyZCBB IENoaWxkZXJzICh3d3cuZGFlbW9uaXplZC5jb20pIDxmc2NrZWRAcGFjYmVsbC5u ZXQ+iF4EExECAB4FAkCGpfsCGwMGCwkIBwMCAxUCAwMWAgECHgECF4AACgkQjGqW TlNTP66KzQCgjf0SQbiK1rgu7hRsmLPSSaGF7X8AoL7Qw/E9kTZr0fntP0XXEnk/ q6nRuQINBECGpvkQCADFzFq+kYbk+KTIhcVBTjTWDbBnjGgmuGR3LGp9hOd6W9SJ i4GD5184ZnMbEgvDZcDEGDNgMcU+f1girwYI2v/o7QA7VQ5bpUbnfOBytzO+bvd7 uCOyJltg8AG5MFLxfhAMHofpNxGlFTEXdVp4M9xyBB+hdLHbJNJqkMGPf+iCUf1W Q86KncU2AK4Sf9I+WYBZwkjaIhi9dQzeEX1c0Um6LxXSBtkjZprIk1M13gVaIJ6E dDN6hrSMbXZL+7yURw38vHXCtRJAKEOyW178rI8MzJzvVNhobvC62uEWD9Idz8sH 5A06fqb2fKJYLQ1keGUpb/qpny7oTmAe0Hx9jOM7AAMGCACdTe1M4U++/7/OVGip 1gnWEtMhHeQQbS7KPh1w8/1kvs5Mml6uGYQI44lKTDP7OHJQ9hIT/+5tfKPHIPhU M/7Mqa8y81c/AK+WUOyY9+uZ0zUxFGMqeU9z5iqJFWSi9QR/f5q/khfmqi5RFVyQ nnVhxBMB8pY1vZHV1CoL7NLK4c/N8mpwCiZ57LTsP8pLfDMWF/OopmM2ulzlfWTr anAdxQohenq/zTgSySX/VGZYSYvyAoXTRuU4USAVGWcUQPnVooA1N7lZP3pawjNP QMSukx9jI1673BPsPXxyQZ1PmmPt9eHKI0G0hNJG+FCmSRLNT/R7hqTzTUmpgMWM yyWPiEkEGBECAAkFAkCGpvkCGwwACgkQjGqWTlNTP642KACeITHq0b42P3oMX7Nj F5U3EaqCgYoAn3HxUB7ELB6vMUugW4aSmZpBJOR6 =ZaJO -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From bpm at idiom.com Tue Jun 15 15:18:40 2004 From: bpm at idiom.com (Breen Mullins) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:18:40 -0700 Subject: FS / inode / vnode refresher In-Reply-To: <20040615214337.GA1701@puppy.inorganic.org> References: <20040615214337.GA1701@puppy.inorganic.org> Message-ID: <1087337919.13055.3.camel@archy.asante.com> On Tue, 2004-06-15 at 14:43, Roy S. Rapoport wrote: > I'm looking for refresher material on filesystem organization, > hopefully at a similar level (in other words, I'm looking for something > deeper than "a directory contains a bunch of files" and something a little > more relevant and high-level than "here's the code to directly manipulate > inodes"). You might start here: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/linuxkernel2/chapter/index.html where you can download a sample chapter from the Linux Kernel book which happens to be about the ext2 and ext3 filesystems. Cheers -- Breen -- Breen Mullins San Mateo, California From secabeen at pobox.com Tue Jun 15 15:29:39 2004 From: secabeen at pobox.com (Ted Cabeen) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:29:39 -0700 Subject: FS / inode / vnode refresher In-Reply-To: <20040615214337.GA1701@puppy.inorganic.org> (Roy S. Rapoport's message of "Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:43:37 -0700") References: <20040615214337.GA1701@puppy.inorganic.org> Message-ID: <87n0345ub0.fsf@gray.impulse.net> "Roy S. Rapoport" writes: > I've been a sysadmin for about 12 years now, and have a pretty decent > understanding of most things sysadmin. I've got enough of an understanding > of how the UNIX filesystem works to explain, say, how files are stored, in > general, what inodes are, and what the diff between symlinks and hard links > is. > > I need to bone up on the lower-level details for an interview next week. > Having already done this on the network side (TCP/IP Illustrated is your > friend), I'm looking for refresher material on filesystem organization, > hopefully at a similar level (in other words, I'm looking for something > deeper than "a directory contains a bunch of files" and something a little > more relevant and high-level than "here's the code to directly manipulate > inodes"). At the same time, I have to shamefully admit that I'm trying to > figure out what the difference between an inode and a vnode is (remember, > there are no stupid questions, only stupid people). The original papers by McKusick and Leffler on FFS and fsck are easy to read and a nice intro. There have been plenty of changes since they were written, but it's a good start. -- Ted Cabeen http://www.pobox.com/~secabeen ted at impulse.net Check Website or Keyserver for PGP/GPG Key BA0349D2 secabeen at pobox.com "I have taken all knowledge to be my province." -F. Bacon secabeen at cabeen.org "Human kind cannot bear very much reality."-T.S.Eliot cabeen at netcom.com From ryoohki at ryoohki.org Tue Jun 15 15:43:49 2004 From: ryoohki at ryoohki.org (Michael Cheselka) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:43:49 -0700 Subject: UNIX scheduler product In-Reply-To: <5444A9998C69D5458C5330D1A64DE387E38A3E@kexbe1.ketera.com> References: <5444A9998C69D5458C5330D1A64DE387E38A3E@kexbe1.ketera.com> Message-ID: <1087339429.40cf7ba5ecd23@webmail.namezero.com> I used OpenPBS, which worked ok, but here's a comparison article: http://www.sysadminmag.com/documents/sam0313c/ Michael Cheselka 408.586.8656 -- When in the Potemkin Wired be a Potemkin Lain. Quoting Ron Leedy : > Does anyone know of a job scheduler with the following specs: > > - A centralized repository for several servers > - Flow control (success exits kick off releases another job) > - Alert e-mails for non-success exits > - History of scheduled jobs and exit statuses > - Solaris and Linux support > > Guess I want my days of working with MVS without paying the Big Blue > ticket > > Ron Leedy > Manager of Managed Services > Ketera, Inc. > Office: 408-572-9431 > > From rsr at inorganic.org Tue Jun 15 15:54:07 2004 From: rsr at inorganic.org (Roy S. Rapoport) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:54:07 -0700 Subject: Imminent Death of BayLISA / July Board Meeting Invitation In-Reply-To: <40CF72B4.9010709@pacbell.net> References: <200406151944.i5FJirqU009942@bunrab.catwhisker.org> <40CF72B4.9010709@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20040615225407.GA25604@puppy.inorganic.org> On Tue, Jun 15, 2004 at 03:05:40PM -0700, richard childers / kg6hac wrote: > It would be nice to give these people an opportunity to speak. A little > public exposure and a little experience at public speaking never hurt > anyone. > > It could be in response to a call for anyone who thinks they are an > expert in topic T ... or it could be a queue of people who would like to > address their fellow geeks on some subject which they believe is of > interest to their peers; let the cheers, or jeers, decide, as a natural > feedback mechanism that needs no improvement. > > In response to David's specific comments, it might, for instance, be > someone who wishes to test their lesson plan, before offering a small > class at the local community college in some small technical topic. > 'Introduction to JavaScript', say, or 'Installing FreeBSD for Dummies'. The only concern I've got with this -- and it's a damn good idea, Richard -- is that us geeks are historically not very good at offering good feedback. I saw a similar problem at a previous workplace -- at some point, a colleague and I became pretty much the best Python programmers there. I had no problem having him look at my code and just instinctively go "that class structure sucks! You should totally do it this way ... " but we found that his ability to impart useful information to more junior people was somewhat hurt by his ... exuberance. One of the most useful things my boss ever did for me is to send me to a phenomenal class on leadership and communication where I got a whole bunch of people giving me feedback about my feedback in an environment where there were no real consequences for screwing up -- nobody was going to talk to my boss about how I interacted with people. I found it invaluable in helping me structure how I talk to people, especially people with whom I have something of a power imbalance (people who work for me, junior people, etc). I don't think most geeks have had that sort of training, and it runs counter to our digital nature. (Actually, funny story: Before I took this class, I actually had a situation where I was calling an engineer who had been telecommuting. He had worked for us for about three months at this point and I was calling to offer him a promotion to management of his group. The conversation started with "So, you've been working for us for about three months now. How's it been?" and progressed to him doing a monologue about the (minor) things he'd done wrong and ... well, it was a painful conversation watching him verbally self-destruct and wondering if I should violate my own rule about interrupting people. Turned out he was expecting me to fire him*) -roy * Well, it's funny in hindsight From alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com Tue Jun 15 17:27:55 2004 From: alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com (Alvin Oga) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 17:27:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Imminent Death of BayLISA / July Board Meeting Invitation In-Reply-To: <20040615204828.GA5046@puppy.inorganic.org> Message-ID: hi ya > I got a verbal one-line blurb from our backup speaker via cellphone > last night. Not even an email, just a cellphone call. a cell phone is a better way ( in my opion ) than an anonynous email that one cant make it - even if nobody shows up at the meetings .. baylisa wont(shouldnt) die - being a backup speaker is no fun for most people(speakers) .. they want to be the primary speaker and have other things to do instead of waiting for the "cancel the backup" emails/notice - if finding speakers is hard to get, just get the speakers list at svlug and sprinkle with the other groups - if for some reason, the speaker cant come, just have a general discussion about blah with those that are at the meeting - if board folks dont go to the board meetings, i assume there is other ways the board stays in touch with each other - and yes, if "its not my job, so i'll let it sit" is not a good way for the board to get things done - and people will burn out of doing volunteer work ... so maybe its time to let new board people in - people go to meetings to socialize and/or listen to the speaker or go for the post meetings - resume ... - find out about the hiring company BEFORE you send out the resume ... - whether they like a cover letter or not - whether they like chronological or functional resume - whether they care that you have a PhD or not ( you know google wants/required a PhD for most jobs ( in the resume collecting old days for "ghost jobs" ... - whether the hiring managers look at it or the hr folks - whether referral by in house people have precedence over "i saw your job posting on fooooo.com or mercky news" - if the head hunter is the 1st contact, you have all of the above answers c ya alvin From alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com Tue Jun 15 19:01:57 2004 From: alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com (Alvin Oga) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 19:01:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: fun - Re: recycling Re: throw away (was "Re: Datacenter tools?") In-Reply-To: <20040614181845.GA12480@2004.snew.com> Message-ID: hi ya chuck On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Chuck Yerkes wrote: > > that's a lot of junk they'd have to ship back to get back some $$$ > > - presumably they just want the fingers of the pci cards > > to get the gold out of it > And you'd be presuming that wrong. Again. and you're always right ... again .. :-) > > ( these are gonna be creating lots of headaches as soon as > > ( it starts to find its way to the water supply > > ( there are millions more throw away batteries now than before > Again, uninformed opinion. and again, you're always right ... :-) without any references either :-) > > - if exodus, he, other major color create a tech bin, i don't mind > > going around collecting junk and refurbing to give to "the kids" ?? > > - it might save a few fish in the bay > But kill a grammar teacher. hopefully you're not the "grammer teacher" you're referring to and btw, they're looking to hire tons of teachers, and they're waiving the "you have to be certified to teach" so anybody can teach the kids. you're meticulous spelling and grammer requirements is probably better served teaching those that want to learn than criticizing deadbeats like me. good thing for me, you're not my compiler that requires perfect spelllin of da dumbVariAbles in the old daze .. there was nettiquette-101 or nettiquette-1, regarding "opinions", and now daze, it seems all that is gone out the door at least between us oldies .. relax dude .. have fun alvin From fscked at pacbell.net Tue Jun 15 19:42:15 2004 From: fscked at pacbell.net (richard childers / kg6hac) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 19:42:15 -0700 Subject: FS / inode / vnode refresher In-Reply-To: <20040615214337.GA1701@puppy.inorganic.org> References: <20040615214337.GA1701@puppy.inorganic.org> Message-ID: <40CFB387.9060206@pacbell.net> A vnode is an inode with a hostid prepended. But you should only need to know this if you are writing NFS code. Otherwise it's overkill. It has absolutely no bearing upon your capacity to administer NFS. There is no nfsck(8) (cute, eh?). Where the rubber meets the road, it's all inodes. Regards, -- richard Roy S. Rapoport wrote: >I've been a sysadmin for about 12 years now, and have a pretty decent >understanding of most things sysadmin. I've got enough of an understanding >of how the UNIX filesystem works to explain, say, how files are stored, in >general, what inodes are, and what the diff between symlinks and hard links >is. > >I need to bone up on the lower-level details for an interview next week. >Having already done this on the network side (TCP/IP Illustrated is your >friend), I'm looking for refresher material on filesystem organization, >hopefully at a similar level (in other words, I'm looking for something >deeper than "a directory contains a bunch of files" and something a little >more relevant and high-level than "here's the code to directly manipulate >inodes"). At the same time, I have to shamefully admit that I'm trying to >figure out what the difference between an inode and a vnode is (remember, >there are no stupid questions, only stupid people). > >Any pointers? > >-roy > > > -- Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services 945 Taraval Street, #105 San Francisco, CA 94116 USA [011.]1.415.759.5571 http://www.daemonized.com -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) mQGiBECGpfsRBACoPJJfIIrWAqjlW92TtYCtY//e7OW8alWylr/1ygtSQzjCCdvC Ysa0fCcx01UenlWV+5YY/zC7KPsX2rQUKAs20fqs9et74dmgMGOj0vMjTzWEs29G FyAsIRSpFioa8zzrjXEUVnU6OFaD9a9eaC+LSTCiKgXjbQySDKM5T1c+vwCg8W3Y RZ83LRIUULGMPlY6zS4fQwUEAIIiTHDdWpbE+HeREJwH+4eDpGVf76XtNlOMXrt9 tJ3ExL+9ezLulg1nCrOYodOB7TEZqzV40R7emDZSX0hI9QEBCv6nW5aDVpw/bf+q UEHwxrUvE2LBi35hoqR2QwqNlagOauSorWj8Qm/31luxJVeLVy1A1czp6B/mvG1T co03A/9a5kzEAebJ5TzWXQC2/4gu/osXQnrw9B9FFpYOtLc0MNQuAFt8VLn5yO5Q 8T58w+FQvFI5FqzI5URmjQeEyWWuyIechknk4RnwIO1UPVjgRTuNgf9/TvNNfqpa aVlbNp+AG21D6VqsFN2zJFFJeUqiYdXw6i+ESL3SZRymIhwYWrQ8UmljaGFyZCBB IENoaWxkZXJzICh3d3cuZGFlbW9uaXplZC5jb20pIDxmc2NrZWRAcGFjYmVsbC5u ZXQ+iF4EExECAB4FAkCGpfsCGwMGCwkIBwMCAxUCAwMWAgECHgECF4AACgkQjGqW TlNTP66KzQCgjf0SQbiK1rgu7hRsmLPSSaGF7X8AoL7Qw/E9kTZr0fntP0XXEnk/ q6nRuQINBECGpvkQCADFzFq+kYbk+KTIhcVBTjTWDbBnjGgmuGR3LGp9hOd6W9SJ i4GD5184ZnMbEgvDZcDEGDNgMcU+f1girwYI2v/o7QA7VQ5bpUbnfOBytzO+bvd7 uCOyJltg8AG5MFLxfhAMHofpNxGlFTEXdVp4M9xyBB+hdLHbJNJqkMGPf+iCUf1W Q86KncU2AK4Sf9I+WYBZwkjaIhi9dQzeEX1c0Um6LxXSBtkjZprIk1M13gVaIJ6E dDN6hrSMbXZL+7yURw38vHXCtRJAKEOyW178rI8MzJzvVNhobvC62uEWD9Idz8sH 5A06fqb2fKJYLQ1keGUpb/qpny7oTmAe0Hx9jOM7AAMGCACdTe1M4U++/7/OVGip 1gnWEtMhHeQQbS7KPh1w8/1kvs5Mml6uGYQI44lKTDP7OHJQ9hIT/+5tfKPHIPhU M/7Mqa8y81c/AK+WUOyY9+uZ0zUxFGMqeU9z5iqJFWSi9QR/f5q/khfmqi5RFVyQ nnVhxBMB8pY1vZHV1CoL7NLK4c/N8mpwCiZ57LTsP8pLfDMWF/OopmM2ulzlfWTr anAdxQohenq/zTgSySX/VGZYSYvyAoXTRuU4USAVGWcUQPnVooA1N7lZP3pawjNP QMSukx9jI1673BPsPXxyQZ1PmmPt9eHKI0G0hNJG+FCmSRLNT/R7hqTzTUmpgMWM yyWPiEkEGBECAAkFAkCGpvkCGwwACgkQjGqWTlNTP642KACeITHq0b42P3oMX7Nj F5U3EaqCgYoAn3HxUB7ELB6vMUugW4aSmZpBJOR6 =ZaJO -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From jxh at jxh.com Tue Jun 15 19:46:56 2004 From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:46:56 -0500 Subject: FS / inode / vnode refresher In-Reply-To: <20040615214337.GA1701@puppy.inorganic.org> References: <20040615214337.GA1701@puppy.inorganic.org> Message-ID: <2147483647.1087336016@216-127-207-36.strgbay.dcwis.com> > I need to bone up on the lower-level details for an interview next week. I recommend the BSD "daemon" book, whatever it's called these days. It goes into enough depth on indirection, vnodes, etc., to get you through an interview, with _me_ anyway. Uh, let's see.... Karels, Quarterman, et al. May no longer be in print, to judge from Amazon. Good luck. From jxh at jxh.com Tue Jun 15 19:57:24 2004 From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:57:24 -0500 Subject: Imminent Death of BayLISA / July Board Meeting Invitation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2147483647.1087336644@216-127-207-36.strgbay.dcwis.com> > so maybe its time to let new board people in "Let"? Historically, we've had trouble finding enough candidates in November to make it a real election, or sometimes to fill up seven seats at all. Anyone can run (we figured out that the bylaws don't require you to be a member to win, only to vote :-), and anyone can volunteer to be on the election nominating committee, or help out organizing. Let's see a candidate's statement! November isn't that far away, and the sooner we get a statement, the sooner there's some grist for a web page about this. (Oh. Gee. I guess I should come up with such a statement myself. I was thinking about running for board, but recusing myself from any office -- elected by the new board, ya know -- for distance reasons. If people think I've had enough fun directing this and should go away, their votes will be counted!) > - people go to meetings to socialize and/or listen to the speaker > or go for the post meetings Concur. All that about electronic media is, if not wrong, at least not to the point here. I went to BayLISA meetings to get _away_ from my computer for a few hours. From ryoohki at ryoohki.org Tue Jun 15 20:00:02 2004 From: ryoohki at ryoohki.org (Michael Cheselka) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 20:00:02 -0700 Subject: FS / inode / vnode refresher In-Reply-To: <20040615214337.GA1701@puppy.inorganic.org> References: <20040615214337.GA1701@puppy.inorganic.org> Message-ID: <1087354802.40cfb7b275310@webmail.namezero.com> There's been a few article about fs's in the Linux Journal and Linux Magazine. Here's a tutorial I found on the web: http://www.linux-tutorial.info/modules.php?name=Tutorial&pageid=95 Michael Cheselka -- When in the Potemkin Wired be a Potemkin Lain. Quoting "Roy S. Rapoport" : > I've been a sysadmin for about 12 years now, and have a pretty decent > understanding of most things sysadmin. I've got enough of an > understanding > of how the UNIX filesystem works to explain, say, how files are > stored, in > general, what inodes are, and what the diff between symlinks and hard > links > is. > > I need to bone up on the lower-level details for an interview next > week. > Having already done this on the network side (TCP/IP Illustrated is > your > friend), I'm looking for refresher material on filesystem > organization, > hopefully at a similar level (in other words, I'm looking for > something > deeper than "a directory contains a bunch of files" and something a > little > more relevant and high-level than "here's the code to directly > manipulate > inodes"). At the same time, I have to shamefully admit that I'm > trying to > figure out what the difference between an inode and a vnode is > (remember, > there are no stupid questions, only stupid people). > > Any pointers? > > -roy > From ken at malones.org Tue Jun 15 17:41:36 2004 From: ken at malones.org (Ken Malone) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 17:41:36 -0700 Subject: Seeking Zope/Plone hosting and Systems Administration Message-ID: <007901c4533a$ae60e210$6800a8c0@CPQ47403191915> [MIME & HTML stuff trimmed during the approval process, since I hadn't warned this poster.... -- postmaster@] Greetings: Our company has developed an Internet tracking system that uses Zope and Plone as its application platform. We currently house the server onsite but are looking for external hosting to provide a more scalable and fault-tolerant solution for our customers. Right now, a single well-provisioned Linux box with Zope using its native webserver and database will suffice. At minimum, we want regular backup and OS security update service. The system is stable but we do require 24/7 telephone-availability for unplanned downtime response. Normally, we communicate by email. Ideally, the provider will have skills to perform Zope/Plone maintenance on an as-needed basis. Very soon, we will be seeking development help as well. In the months ahead, we will implement an Apache front-end, a PostgreSQL or Ingres back-end, and ZEO-clustering. Our tracking system is unique and eagerly anticipated by several large customers awaiting implementation. We are looking for an affordable, long-term Zope/Plone service provider, preferably in South Bay, who can grow with us. Regards, Ken Malone 408-567-0197 From chuck+baylisa at snew.com Tue Jun 15 21:51:05 2004 From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 00:51:05 -0400 Subject: FS / inode / vnode refresher In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1087336016@216-127-207-36.strgbay.dcwis.com> References: <20040615214337.GA1701@puppy.inorganic.org> <2147483647.1087336016@216-127-207-36.strgbay.dcwis.com> Message-ID: <20040616045105.GA17013@2004.snew.com> Quoting Jim Hickstein (jxh at jxh.com): > >I need to bone up on the lower-level details for an interview next week. > > I recommend the BSD "daemon" book, whatever it's called these days. It > goes into enough depth on indirection, vnodes, etc., to get you through an > interview, with _me_ anyway. > > Uh, let's see.... Karels, Quarterman, et al. May no longer be in print, > to judge from Amazon. Good luck. Um, there's a new one coming in the next couple months. 4.4BSD was the last BSD. Except for the non-Berkeley projects which have advanced it significantly in the last 10 years. From rsr at inorganic.org Tue Jun 15 23:15:24 2004 From: rsr at inorganic.org (Roy S. Rapoport) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 23:15:24 -0700 Subject: FS / inode / vnode refresher In-Reply-To: <40CFB387.9060206@pacbell.net> References: <20040615214337.GA1701@puppy.inorganic.org> <40CFB387.9060206@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20040616061524.GB1169@puppy.inorganic.org> On Tue, Jun 15, 2004 at 07:42:15PM -0700, richard childers / kg6hac wrote: > A vnode is an inode with a hostid prepended. > > But you should only need to know this if you are writing NFS code. > Otherwise it's overkill. It has absolutely no bearing upon your capacity > to administer NFS. There is no nfsck(8) (cute, eh?). Where the rubber > meets the road, it's all inodes. The place I'm interviewing at, I'm not sure they know what 'overkill' is, in terms of what you know :) -roy From rsr at inorganic.org Tue Jun 15 23:34:37 2004 From: rsr at inorganic.org (Roy S. Rapoport) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 23:34:37 -0700 Subject: Seeking Zope/Plone hosting and Systems Administration In-Reply-To: <007901c4533a$ae60e210$6800a8c0@CPQ47403191915> References: <007901c4533a$ae60e210$6800a8c0@CPQ47403191915> Message-ID: <20040616063437.GH1169@puppy.inorganic.org> On Tue, Jun 15, 2004 at 05:41:36PM -0700, Ken Malone wrote: > [MIME & HTML stuff trimmed during the approval process, since I hadn't > warned this poster.... -- postmaster@] [..] > on an as-needed basis. Very soon, we will be seeking development help as > well. In the months ahead, we will implement an Apache front-end, a > PostgreSQL or Ingres back-end, and ZEO-clustering. (Ken, please don't take this as an attack on you) Oh Zope, how do I love thee? Well, a lot. $lastWorkplace uses Zope exclusively for their web apps so I got my introduction there. I love the way Zope really works hard to enforce the MVC paradigm (this is where you decide how your page is going to look. No, you may not put business logic. This is where your business logic is going to go. No, don't worry yer pretty little head about if this is going to get displayed as a table or as a collection of paragraphs; etc). I love the incredibly rapid development cycle, aided by easy FTP/WebDAV access. I like the automatic versioning. I love the hierarchical acquisition system. It took me about three weeks to create a media library using PHP. When it was time to migrate it from PHP to Zope, it took me about two days, and it feels cleaner and is less buggy (see http://app.inorganic.org/library) Having said that, the thing I hate the MOST about Zope is the fact that managing it is done through a web interface on the same port where it offers content -- in other words, it's in-band management. That means that you can take the average Zope server serving content at http://my.dom.ain and go to http://my.dom.ain/manage to get the management interface. You'll get prompted for a password, of course, but ... I don't like the fact you get that close. Worse, it's somewhat difficult to deal with this because /manage is not the only 'management' URL -- most actions in Zope are done through URLs (I wrote a Zope exporter/importer at my last company that took advantage of this). Now, it may be that logging in through Zope's mechanisms is required for you and so you're going to have to make it available to the world. If it is not, however, I'd strongly urge you to proxy it behind Apache and use ProxyMatch to make sure people don't access the management interface (e.g. http://app.inorganic.org/manage). Thus ends AnswerMan's retort to your question. (There are other reasons I don't like Zope, but they're mostly development-based, rather than sysadmin-based) -roy From david at catwhisker.org Wed Jun 16 05:33:01 2004 From: david at catwhisker.org (David Wolfskill) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 05:33:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FS / inode / vnode refresher In-Reply-To: <20040616045105.GA17013@2004.snew.com> Message-ID: <200406161233.i5GCX17v013200@bunrab.catwhisker.org> >Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 00:51:05 -0400 >From: Chuck Yerkes >To: baylisa at baylisa.org >Subject: Re: FS / inode / vnode refresher >Sender: owner-baylisa at baylisa.org >> Uh, let's see.... Karels, Quarterman, et al. May no longer be in print, >> to judge from Amazon. Good luck. >Um, there's a new one coming in the next couple months. >4.4BSD was the last BSD. Except for the non-Berkeley projects >which have advanced it significantly in the last 10 years. Indeed. [Recalling the days of the USL/BSD/UC Regents lawsuit and the "disestablishment" of the CSRG....] But I have copies of each of the 4.3 & 4.4 versions, and am willing to loan them out for reasonable periods. (Please note that this is a personal, not "BayLISA-sanctioned" (whatever that might mean) effort.) Peace, david -- David H. Wolfskill david at catwhisker.org I do not "unsubscribe" from email "services" to which I have not explicitly subscribed. Rather, I block spammers' access to SMTP servers I control, and encourage others who are in a position to do so to do likewise. From dannyman at toldme.com Wed Jun 16 06:59:35 2004 From: dannyman at toldme.com (Danny Howard) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 06:59:35 -0700 Subject: This is a Flame (used to be: "fun") In-Reply-To: References: <20040614181845.GA12480@2004.snew.com> Message-ID: <20040616135935.GM66923@ratchet.nebcorp.com> On Tue, Jun 15, 2004 at 07:01:57PM -0700, Alvin Oga wrote: > > > - if exodus, he, other major color create a tech bin, i don't mind > > > going around collecting junk and refurbing to give to "the kids" ?? > > > - it might save a few fish in the bay > > But kill a grammar teacher. > > hopefully you're not the "grammer teacher" you're referring to > > and btw, they're looking to hire tons of teachers, and they're > waiving the "you have to be certified to teach" so anybody can > teach the kids. you're meticulous spelling and grammer requirements > is probably better served teaching those that want to learn > than criticizing deadbeats like me. good thing for me, you're > not my compiler that requires perfect spelllin of da dumbVariAbles Grammer? I distinctly remember learning from that mistake in my time as a public school student. 0-6:50 djh at ratchet ~> grep ^gramm /usr/share/dict/words grammalogue grammar grammarian grammarianism grammarless grammatic grammatical grammatically grammaticalness grammaticaster grammaticism grammaticize grammatics grammatist grammatistical grammatite grammatolator grammatolatry gramme I'm sorry ... and I'm sorry because I'm flaming on BayLISA, because that just aint right, but ... c'mon here ... I work in tech support, so I see my share of inexplicable stupidity, but on BayLISA? A spelling flame that wrongly "corrects" the already-correct spelling of "grammar?" That is just too ... whatever it is, it is so much of it that you must receive a public taunting. Please, if you're going to flame on BayLISA, you could at least do some cursory research first. These are SYSADMINS you are dealing with, and we do not take kindly to egregious bone-headedness. And we have dot files ... 0-6:57 djh at ratchet ~> grep alvin .spamassassin/user_prefs blacklist_from alvin@*Linux-Consulting.com There. Less noise. Happy Wednesday, -danny -- http://dannyman.toldme.com/ From rleedy at ketera.com Wed Jun 16 09:24:32 2004 From: rleedy at ketera.com (Ron Leedy) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 09:24:32 -0700 Subject: UNIX scheduler product Message-ID: <5444A9998C69D5458C5330D1A64DE387E38AD4@kexbe1.ketera.com> I want to thank everyone who as contributed to this thread. I will be taking several of the products and doing an internal evaluation of a few of them that people seem to have good comments about. Ron Leedy From strata at virtual.net Wed Jun 16 12:04:54 2004 From: strata at virtual.net (Strata R Chalup) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 12:04:54 -0700 Subject: Imminent Death of BayLISA / July Board Meeting Invitation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40D099D6.8070603@virtual.net> Wups, you are right, $GROUPNAME is what I meant. Heck, maybe we could start a joint mailing list for independent sysadmin groups! (Not an entirely facetious suggestion, btw) I think stagnation is a lifecycle thing with groups, but that doesn't make it any less difficult to deal with. cheers, Strata Jim Trocki wrote: > I think you mean $GROUPNAME, and fwiw, we've been stagnating lately, also. -- ======================================================================== Strata Rose Chalup [KF6NBZ] strata "@" virtual.net VirtualNet Consulting http://www.virtual.net/ ** Project Management & Architecture for ISP/ASP Systems Integration ** ========================================================================= From strata at virtual.net Wed Jun 16 12:13:08 2004 From: strata at virtual.net (Strata R Chalup) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 12:13:08 -0700 Subject: Imminent Death of BayLISA / July Board Meeting Invitation In-Reply-To: <40CF59E9.4050805@arrl.net> References: <40CF59E9.4050805@arrl.net> Message-ID: <40D09BC4.6070206@virtual.net> Hi Dan, I think that's a great point, and that a resume speaker with time for a workshop afterwards. A 30 - 40 minute talk and then an hour workshop or Q-n-A could work well if we start on time. You've held some very responsible positions, and been involved on both sides of the hiring desk. Given your expertise and contacts, could you please go through your rolodex (or equivalent) and locate 2 - 3 names of people who could either do a resume coaching talk, or who are sufficiently experienced headhunters to be able to recommend a resume coach to contact? If you could please take point on this, and try to line someone up for an August or September slot, that would be much appreciated. I'm willing to be backup and make calls if you get too busy. A lot of folks close their fiscal year over the summer and pick up hiring in the fall, so a late summer timeframe for this is probably a very good one. Anyone with a specific speaker on this topic to recommend, could you please send the name to both Dan and myself? cheers, and thanks, Strata Daniel Curry wrote: > I totally agree with Deirdre on having a speaker or better yet > a workshop on doing resumes. There are some of us who have many year of > experience, but do not have that four year degree. I for one could use > some help on how to write my resume to get pass that HR and/or JOBS( non > technical)person who job is to see buzz words. -- ======================================================================== Strata Rose Chalup [KF6NBZ] strata "@" virtual.net VirtualNet Consulting http://www.virtual.net/ ** Project Management & Architecture for ISP/ASP Systems Integration ** ========================================================================= From strata at virtual.net Wed Jun 16 12:19:11 2004 From: strata at virtual.net (Strata R Chalup) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 12:19:11 -0700 Subject: Imminent Death of BayLISA / July Board Meeting Invitation In-Reply-To: <20040615203221.GB5397@starshine.org> References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> <20040615203221.GB5397@starshine.org> Message-ID: <40D09D2F.1070602@virtual.net> Thanks very much for the apology! I was being very careful to leave names out of it, and we have several backup speakers so it's noble of you to step forward and own that. You've been doing a ton of stuff for BayLISA and have a lot of other projects as well, so I completely understand being swamped. The 'on the hook' blurb sounds like a good idea. I seem to recall that we used to do that at one point, but those things never migrated into the TWiki. So, other backup speakers, if you have TWiki access please create an entry with your canned blurb. Do keep in mind that it should be for a talk that you already have at least 50% prepared! If we return to our practice of just declaring a backup speaker at the Board meeting before that General meeting, then the backup speaker will have plenty of time to prepare. Where we are getting into trouble is trying to come up with a last minute speaker who isn't a standard backup speaker, and thus holding the announcement past its normal send date. cheers, Strata Heather Stern wrote: > I repeat my apology of being under the gun of the allergy monster. > I seem to be better today for what that's worth. > > I'd like to request that the next backup speaker "on the hook" prep your > title and your blurb - and your bio if you want to - even if you don't > feel inclined to do your slide kit until you're tagged It. That will > allow us to be able to put you on in the push of a button instead of > holding up things any further if things are already past "late". -- ======================================================================== Strata Rose Chalup [KF6NBZ] strata "@" virtual.net VirtualNet Consulting http://www.virtual.net/ ** Project Management & Architecture for ISP/ASP Systems Integration ** ========================================================================= From michael at halligan.org Wed Jun 16 12:41:22 2004 From: michael at halligan.org (Michael T. Halligan) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 12:41:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Imminent Death of BayLISA / July Board Meeting Invitation In-Reply-To: <40CF59E9.4050805@arrl.net> Message-ID: > If some of you had not noticed, but Goggle is the worst case hear > in the valley. They are constantly sending out "ghost jobs." > >From a friend of mine at Google : -- Contrary to popular belief, Google IS actually hiring, we just have ridiculously high standards. I myself only got hired because of a referral. If you don't have either a degree, or 2x as much experience as the job posting and a half dozen delivered papers/articles to your name, don't bother. -- > Thank you, > > > -- > Daniel Curry > AD5A 96DC 7556 A020 B8E7 0E4D 5D5E 9BA5 C83E 8C92 > > ------------------- Michael T. Halligan Chief Geek Halligan Infrastructure Designs. http://www.halligan.org/ 3158 Mission St. #3 San Francisco, CA 94110 (415) 724.7998 - Mobile From michael at halligan.org Wed Jun 16 12:45:12 2004 From: michael at halligan.org (Michael T. Halligan) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 12:45:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Imminent Death of BayLISA / July Board Meeting Invitation In-Reply-To: <20040615204828.GA5046@puppy.inorganic.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jun 2004, Roy S. Rapoport wrote: > BayLISA! BayLISA! And one of these days, I really will make it to a > meeting! :) > > For me, the biggest impediment to coming to meetings has been finding > someone to go with. I like going to the meetings alone about as much as I > like going to the movies alone, or to dinner. I got involved in BayLISA > because I was working for Alberto and he went pretty much every time, > taking me with him; lately, I'd been having something of a problem getting > any of my sysadmin friends to go. > > It's also a location thing, really -- living in Brisbane, it's felt a > little far to go. If I'm very, very, very lucky and good, it's possible my > next job (I'm going through the interview cycle now) will be in Mountain > View, and I suspect it'll be easier to make it. I agree with you on this. I avoid the BALug meetings because the restaurant they go at sort of sucks, and they've been seemingly dead for so long (I could be wrong.. I just remember about a year period that the website did not update) I'm not sure if they even exist.. Living in SF, it's a bit of a pain to go to the south bay, but would be less if one were to organize some sort of a SF-BayLisa carpool? > And of course, the membership thing follows the attendance thing -- I was a > member for a year, I seem to recall, but afterward looked back and decided > that maybe paying $35 and going once in that year was ... an unfortunate > cost/benefit ratio :) ------------------- Michael T. Halligan Chief Geek Halligan Infrastructure Designs. http://www.halligan.org/ 3158 Mission St. #3 San Francisco, CA 94110 (415) 724.7998 - Mobile From jxh at jxh.com Wed Jun 16 12:52:40 2004 From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:52:40 -0500 Subject: Imminent Death of BayLISA / July Board Meeting Invitation In-Reply-To: <40D09D2F.1070602@virtual.net> References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> <20040615203221.GB5397@starshine.org> <40D09D2F.1070602@virtual.net> Message-ID: <2147483647.1087397560@216-127-207-61.strgbay.dcwis.com> > So, other backup speakers, if you have TWiki access please create an > entry with your canned blurb. Do keep in mind that it should be for > a talk that you already have at least 50% prepared! That reminds me: We should (there's that word) open up the TWiki to all members, if not the entire Internet (read for the latter, read/write for members?). Members means ... A database! And passwords! The cobblers children have gone into the f*cking NAVY and become f*cking ADMIRALS and still have no shoes! (Sorry. I can shout because I'm one of the proximate causes of this being so bad; although I'm also the one who get it as far as it is.) Who within the sound of my voice would like to volunteer to do this, once and for all? We'll give you a shell and sudo and turn you loose. (We? I guess the board should approve it, but I'll bet they will.) We have a bunch of OpenLDAP-based crap I came up with; it should be in MySQL instead, and should tie into the Apache for Basic-Auth, which is how TWiki likes things. Let there be PHP, or Python, or whatever. In the current thing, only board members can edit a member's paid-until ("expiration" sounds bad) date, and there's a record of who edited what; not to mention editing who's considered "board"; those should be preserved. It should email renewal reminders (the primary objective), password reminders on demand, and permit online payment of fees. With a credit card. (See www.authorize.net, which I use elsewhere.) From the meeting, if anyone there has a connected browser. It's 2004. How hard can this be these days? Who can resist the challenge? I'd tackle it, but it frankly needs a fresh perspective, and someone with knowledge of -- yes! -- commercial products that we could simply _buy_, within reason. There are a few bucks left in the treasury (right?) and this would probably get enough board votes for a modest (<$1k) price. Should run on Solaris, but a Linux box could be spontaneously generated to run this instead. (And IMAP Partners, LLC, will continue to donate co-lo space, if it replaces the Solaris box.) One more thought: structure it so you could outsource this to $GROUPNAME et al, pro-bono or cost-recovery. Be sure someone else hasn't already done this, first. From deirdre at deirdre.net Wed Jun 16 13:11:42 2004 From: deirdre at deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse Moen) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 13:11:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Imminent Death of BayLISA / July Board Meeting Invitation In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1087397560@216-127-207-61.strgbay.dcwis.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jun 2004, Jim Hickstein wrote: > That reminds me: We should (there's that word) open up the TWiki to > all members, if not the entire Internet (read for the latter, > read/write for members?). Members means ... A database! And > passwords! The cobblers children have gone into the f*cking NAVY and > become f*cking ADMIRALS and still have no shoes! (Sorry. I can shout > because I'm one of the proximate causes of this being so bad; although > I'm also the one who get it as far as it is.) There's other options than twiki, too. :) You know, mod_virgule is pretty wonderful. Some mod_virgule sites: http://www.advogato.org/ (currently moving) http://clarion.deirdre.org/ (heavily hacked and slashed by yours truly) http://robots.net/ And then there's blogs too. I use b2evolution.net for http://deirdre.org/blog/ -- _Deirdre http://deirdre.net "Memes are a hoax! Pass it on!" From strata at virtual.net Wed Jun 16 13:18:03 2004 From: strata at virtual.net (Strata R Chalup) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 13:18:03 -0700 Subject: BayLISA Monthly: 6/17/04: Pass Thru Auto Bot: Technical Support's automated responder, Heather Stern Message-ID: <40D0AAFB.50903@virtual.net> BayLISA Monthly Technical Talk & General Meeting Please RSVP to rsvp at baylisa.org so that we can get an idea of how many will be attending. This event is open to the general public. You do not need to be a member to attend. -------- Where: Apple Computer, Town Hall Auditorium Addr: Four Infinite Loop, Cupertino, CA http://www.baylisa.org/locations/current.html -------- Date: Thursday, 17 June 2004 Time: 7:30pm - 9:30pm PST Pass Thru Auto Bot: Technical Support's automated responder Heather Stern First conceived as a gentle form of a receptionist for the email queue, this autobot became the handiest "new hire" for technical support teams at more than one large company, and made a friendlier customer experience at the same time. "Hiring" your bot takes some planning, preventing its use as a thirdparty spammer, and some sense of the corporate image to portray, but the effort is well worth it. Procmail is found in all modern variants of UNIX. Last we'll look at the potential beyond its original uses, for any helpdesk environment. . . . . . Heather Stern, Starshine Technical Services www.starshine.org/star/ Heather Stern has been an active system administrator for many years, a professional in the Silicon Valley area since 1995, and is especially well known in the local Linux community as an expert in laptops, unusual hardware configurations, and the X window system. She last spoke for BayLISA in 1999. ********************************************** July BayLISA Preview: Data Through the Firewall: Covert Communications Channels, Mark Langston ********************************************** -------- BayLISA meets every month on the 3rd Thursday of the month. A short period of announcements of general interest to the sysadmin community is presented, followed by a technical talk. Anyone may make an announcement; typical are upcoming presentations, user group meetings, employment offers, etc. For further information on BayLISA, check out our web site: http://www.baylisa.org/ Directions and details about the current meeting and future events: http://www.baylisa.org/events/ BayLISA makes video tapes of the meetings available to members. Tape library is often available at the general meeting, or for more information on available videos, please send email to "video at baylisa.org". If you have suggestions for speakers, or would like to volunteer to present a talk at one of our meetings, please email the Board and Working Group at "blw at baylisa.org". Thanks! -------- From jxh at jxh.com Wed Jun 16 13:54:30 2004 From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 15:54:30 -0500 Subject: Imminent Death of BayLISA / July Board Meeting Invitation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2147483647.1087401270@216-127-207-61.strgbay.dcwis.com> > There's other options than twiki, too. :) ... except TWiki is already set up and running, modulo the Basic-Auth part. It's a flat file now, and board-only access. We just need to extend that, as part of finally having a real membership database. With passwords and online payments and renewal reminders. After that, sure, TWiki could become something else, or could be joined by several other things meeting slightly different needs. Infrastructure, infrastructure, infrastructure! From ken at malones.org Wed Jun 16 16:28:34 2004 From: ken at malones.org (Ken Malone) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 16:28:34 -0700 Subject: Seeking Zope/Plone hosting and Systems Administration In-Reply-To: <20040616063437.GH1169@puppy.inorganic.org> Message-ID: <009d01c453f9$a4ae8780$6800a8c0@CPQ47403191915> > That means that you can take the average Zope server serving content at > http://my.dom.ain and go to http://my.dom.ain/manage to get the management > interface. We use a Zope access-rule script for loading Plone as the root page and mapping the management path to a fire-wall protected high port. There are also ways to configure IP authentication entirely within Zope. I certainly agree with you about proxying since Apache has many security and scalability advantages over Zope native webservice. Ken > You'll get prompted for a password, of course, but ... I don't > like the fact you get that close. Worse, it's somewhat difficult to deal > with this because /manage is not the only 'management' URL -- most actions > in Zope are done through URLs (I wrote a Zope exporter/importer at my last > company that took advantage of this). > > Now, it may be that logging in through Zope's mechanisms is required for > you and so you're going to have to make it available to the world. If it > is not, however, I'd strongly urge you to proxy it behind Apache and use > ProxyMatch to make sure people don't access the management interface (e.g. > http://app.inorganic.org/manage). > > Thus ends AnswerMan's retort to your question. > > (There are other reasons I don't like Zope, but they're mostly > development-based, rather than sysadmin-based) > > -roy From fscked at pacbell.net Thu Jun 17 07:35:43 2004 From: fscked at pacbell.net (richard childers / kg6hac) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 07:35:43 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1087397560@216-127-207-61.strgbay.dcwis.com> References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> <20040615203221.GB5397@starshine.org> <40D09D2F.1070602@virtual.net> <2147483647.1087397560@216-127-207-61.strgbay.dcwis.com> Message-ID: <40D1AC3F.8050405@pacbell.net> Another thing to think about is the exclusivity implies by the acronum 'LISA'. Who defines what's 'Large'? The arrays of 500 MB hard drives I managed in 1986 - each one over a hundred pounds in weight, and requiring two strong men to lift, and a third to align with sliding rack supports - why, their data could fit into a laptop now. The same laptop contains more computing power than an entire room full of servers, 'way back when. But no one would seriously suggest that managing a small stack of laptops is equivalent to managing a half a dozen server rooms. No, although the complexity within the server is an important metric of the capacity of the administrator, it is the potential interconnections with other islands of complexity which elicit another level of complexity; and it is that complexity which we administer. Not the servers, but their relationships, across networks. (I could fill fifteen minutes, easily, with a small talk on objectively measuring the entropy of a given network, using procedures which generate numbers which will garner respect in the board room; but I digress.) And yet, within the acronym LISA, I see no room for network administrators, or network service administrators ... or database administrators, for that matter. Obviously these groups have their own SIGs; and yet, administration of servers and their services is closely linked to authentication mechanisms, which are increasingly distributed and must be seen in their proper context - which is that they are simply another service, and that database administrators are, fundamentally, providers of a service that is server-based nd network-delivered, and for that reason, they can best be regarded as network service administrators, like the rest of us. (Indeed, the market itself is saying as much. How many ads do you see for someone to administer their Linux servers, Windows clients, Mac clients, database, do a little SQL, administer their firewall, maintain their router, and maybe tap-dance, too? The boundaries that exist in the IT marketplace are largely a result of organizational, and consequently, budgetary, boundaries, which the current economic slump has erased - they do not reflect the actual problems [which span from the desktops, across the networks, to the servers] or the capacities of the individuals whose job it is to troubleshoot them.) The acronym 'LISA' is dated for another reason; it alludes to a period when big iron was predominant. This is no longer the case. Distributed computing is increasingly a player in scientific communities - and by that term I include hackers, of course. Wireless connectivity isn't just over the horizon, it's here, and the speed is increasing every year. Using a volt-ohm-meter remains an important skill - but so does orienting an antenna for maximum gain. Sure, you'll still find pockets of concentrated computing capacity, but nowadays, with a gHz laptop in almost every house, the mean mHz of computing power per square acre of urban landscape has taken a big step upwards. I'd like to propose disbanding BayLISA, and creating BayISSA - 'ISSA' as referring to 'Information Systems & Services Administrators', which comprises network administrators, network services administrators, and server administrators, without drawing any boundaries which exclude. Regards, -- richard -- Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services 945 Taraval Street, #105 San Francisco, CA 94116 USA [011.]1.415.759.5571 http://www.daemonized.com -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) mQGiBECGpfsRBACoPJJfIIrWAqjlW92TtYCtY//e7OW8alWylr/1ygtSQzjCCdvC Ysa0fCcx01UenlWV+5YY/zC7KPsX2rQUKAs20fqs9et74dmgMGOj0vMjTzWEs29G FyAsIRSpFioa8zzrjXEUVnU6OFaD9a9eaC+LSTCiKgXjbQySDKM5T1c+vwCg8W3Y RZ83LRIUULGMPlY6zS4fQwUEAIIiTHDdWpbE+HeREJwH+4eDpGVf76XtNlOMXrt9 tJ3ExL+9ezLulg1nCrOYodOB7TEZqzV40R7emDZSX0hI9QEBCv6nW5aDVpw/bf+q UEHwxrUvE2LBi35hoqR2QwqNlagOauSorWj8Qm/31luxJVeLVy1A1czp6B/mvG1T co03A/9a5kzEAebJ5TzWXQC2/4gu/osXQnrw9B9FFpYOtLc0MNQuAFt8VLn5yO5Q 8T58w+FQvFI5FqzI5URmjQeEyWWuyIechknk4RnwIO1UPVjgRTuNgf9/TvNNfqpa aVlbNp+AG21D6VqsFN2zJFFJeUqiYdXw6i+ESL3SZRymIhwYWrQ8UmljaGFyZCBB IENoaWxkZXJzICh3d3cuZGFlbW9uaXplZC5jb20pIDxmc2NrZWRAcGFjYmVsbC5u ZXQ+iF4EExECAB4FAkCGpfsCGwMGCwkIBwMCAxUCAwMWAgECHgECF4AACgkQjGqW TlNTP66KzQCgjf0SQbiK1rgu7hRsmLPSSaGF7X8AoL7Qw/E9kTZr0fntP0XXEnk/ q6nRuQINBECGpvkQCADFzFq+kYbk+KTIhcVBTjTWDbBnjGgmuGR3LGp9hOd6W9SJ i4GD5184ZnMbEgvDZcDEGDNgMcU+f1girwYI2v/o7QA7VQ5bpUbnfOBytzO+bvd7 uCOyJltg8AG5MFLxfhAMHofpNxGlFTEXdVp4M9xyBB+hdLHbJNJqkMGPf+iCUf1W Q86KncU2AK4Sf9I+WYBZwkjaIhi9dQzeEX1c0Um6LxXSBtkjZprIk1M13gVaIJ6E dDN6hrSMbXZL+7yURw38vHXCtRJAKEOyW178rI8MzJzvVNhobvC62uEWD9Idz8sH 5A06fqb2fKJYLQ1keGUpb/qpny7oTmAe0Hx9jOM7AAMGCACdTe1M4U++/7/OVGip 1gnWEtMhHeQQbS7KPh1w8/1kvs5Mml6uGYQI44lKTDP7OHJQ9hIT/+5tfKPHIPhU M/7Mqa8y81c/AK+WUOyY9+uZ0zUxFGMqeU9z5iqJFWSi9QR/f5q/khfmqi5RFVyQ nnVhxBMB8pY1vZHV1CoL7NLK4c/N8mpwCiZ57LTsP8pLfDMWF/OopmM2ulzlfWTr anAdxQohenq/zTgSySX/VGZYSYvyAoXTRuU4USAVGWcUQPnVooA1N7lZP3pawjNP QMSukx9jI1673BPsPXxyQZ1PmmPt9eHKI0G0hNJG+FCmSRLNT/R7hqTzTUmpgMWM yyWPiEkEGBECAAkFAkCGpvkCGwwACgkQjGqWTlNTP642KACeITHq0b42P3oMX7Nj F5U3EaqCgYoAn3HxUB7ELB6vMUugW4aSmZpBJOR6 =ZaJO -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From rnelson at nospam.visi.com Thu Jun 17 09:04:31 2004 From: rnelson at nospam.visi.com (Ron E. Nelson) Date: 17 Jun 2004 11:04:31 -0500 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <40D1AC3F.8050405@pacbell.net> References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> <20040615203221.GB5397@starshine.org> <40D09D2F.1070602@virtual.net> <2147483647.1087397560@216-127-207-61.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1AC3F.8050405@pacbell.net> Message-ID: Good idea/thoughts. Of course, ISSA is used by the Information Systems Security Association (www.issa.org)... Ron >>>>> "richard" == richard childers / kg6hac writes: richard> Another thing to think about is the exclusivity implies richard> by the acronum 'LISA'. richard> Who defines what's 'Large'? The arrays of 500 MB hard richard> drives I managed in 1986 - each one over a hundred pounds richard> in weight, and requiring two strong men to lift, and a richard> third to align with sliding rack supports - why, their richard> data could fit into a laptop now. The same laptop richard> contains more computing power than an entire room full of richard> servers, 'way back when. richard> But no one would seriously suggest that managing a small richard> stack of laptops is equivalent to managing a half a dozen richard> server rooms. No, although the complexity within the richard> server is an important metric of the capacity of the richard> administrator, it is the potential interconnections with richard> other islands of complexity which elicit another level of richard> complexity; and it is that complexity which we richard> administer. Not the servers, but their relationships, richard> across networks. richard> (I could fill fifteen minutes, easily, with a small talk richard> on objectively measuring the entropy of a given network, richard> using procedures which generate numbers which will garner richard> respect in the board room; but I digress.) richard> And yet, within the acronym LISA, I see no room for richard> network administrators, or network service administrators richard> ... or database administrators, for that richard> matter. Obviously these groups have their own SIGs; and richard> yet, administration of servers and their services is richard> closely linked to authentication mechanisms, which are richard> increasingly distributed and must be seen in their proper richard> context - which is that they are simply another service, richard> and that database administrators are, fundamentally, richard> providers of a service that is server-based nd richard> network-delivered, and for that reason, they can best be richard> regarded as network service administrators, like the rest richard> of us. richard> (Indeed, the market itself is saying as much. How many richard> ads do you see for someone to administer their Linux richard> servers, Windows clients, Mac clients, database, do a richard> little SQL, administer their firewall, maintain their richard> router, and maybe tap-dance, too? The boundaries that richard> exist in the IT marketplace are largely a result of richard> organizational, and consequently, budgetary, boundaries, richard> which the current economic slump has erased - they do not richard> reflect the actual problems [which span from the richard> desktops, across the networks, to the servers] or the richard> capacities of the individuals whose job it is to richard> troubleshoot them.) richard> The acronym 'LISA' is dated for another reason; it richard> alludes to a period when big iron was predominant. This richard> is no longer the case. Distributed computing is richard> increasingly a player in scientific communities - and by richard> that term I include hackers, of course. Wireless richard> connectivity isn't just over the horizon, it's here, and richard> the speed is increasing every year. Using a richard> volt-ohm-meter remains an important skill - but so does richard> orienting an antenna for maximum gain. Sure, you'll still richard> find pockets of concentrated computing capacity, but richard> nowadays, with a gHz laptop in almost every house, the richard> mean mHz of computing power per square acre of urban richard> landscape has taken a big step upwards. richard> I'd like to propose disbanding BayLISA, and creating richard> BayISSA - 'ISSA' as referring to 'Information Systems & richard> Services Administrators', which comprises network richard> administrators, network services administrators, and richard> server administrators, without drawing any boundaries richard> which exclude. richard> Regards, richard> -- richard richard> -- richard> Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking richard> Services 945 Taraval Street, #105 San Francisco, CA 94116 richard> USA [011.]1.415.759.5571 http://www.daemonized.com richard> -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: GnuPG richard> v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) richard> mQGiBECGpfsRBACoPJJfIIrWAqjlW92TtYCtY//e7OW8alWylr/1ygtSQzjCCdvC richard> Ysa0fCcx01UenlWV+5YY/zC7KPsX2rQUKAs20fqs9et74dmgMGOj0vMjTzWEs29G richard> FyAsIRSpFioa8zzrjXEUVnU6OFaD9a9eaC+LSTCiKgXjbQySDKM5T1c+vwCg8W3Y richard> RZ83LRIUULGMPlY6zS4fQwUEAIIiTHDdWpbE+HeREJwH+4eDpGVf76XtNlOMXrt9 richard> tJ3ExL+9ezLulg1nCrOYodOB7TEZqzV40R7emDZSX0hI9QEBCv6nW5aDVpw/bf+q richard> UEHwxrUvE2LBi35hoqR2QwqNlagOauSorWj8Qm/31luxJVeLVy1A1czp6B/mvG1T richard> co03A/9a5kzEAebJ5TzWXQC2/4gu/osXQnrw9B9FFpYOtLc0MNQuAFt8VLn5yO5Q richard> 8T58w+FQvFI5FqzI5URmjQeEyWWuyIechknk4RnwIO1UPVjgRTuNgf9/TvNNfqpa richard> aVlbNp+AG21D6VqsFN2zJFFJeUqiYdXw6i+ESL3SZRymIhwYWrQ8UmljaGFyZCBB richard> IENoaWxkZXJzICh3d3cuZGFlbW9uaXplZC5jb20pIDxmc2NrZWRAcGFjYmVsbC5u richard> ZXQ+iF4EExECAB4FAkCGpfsCGwMGCwkIBwMCAxUCAwMWAgECHgECF4AACgkQjGqW richard> TlNTP66KzQCgjf0SQbiK1rgu7hRsmLPSSaGF7X8AoL7Qw/E9kTZr0fntP0XXEnk/ richard> q6nRuQINBECGpvkQCADFzFq+kYbk+KTIhcVBTjTWDbBnjGgmuGR3LGp9hOd6W9SJ richard> i4GD5184ZnMbEgvDZcDEGDNgMcU+f1girwYI2v/o7QA7VQ5bpUbnfOBytzO+bvd7 richard> uCOyJltg8AG5MFLxfhAMHofpNxGlFTEXdVp4M9xyBB+hdLHbJNJqkMGPf+iCUf1W richard> Q86KncU2AK4Sf9I+WYBZwkjaIhi9dQzeEX1c0Um6LxXSBtkjZprIk1M13gVaIJ6E richard> dDN6hrSMbXZL+7yURw38vHXCtRJAKEOyW178rI8MzJzvVNhobvC62uEWD9Idz8sH richard> 5A06fqb2fKJYLQ1keGUpb/qpny7oTmAe0Hx9jOM7AAMGCACdTe1M4U++/7/OVGip richard> 1gnWEtMhHeQQbS7KPh1w8/1kvs5Mml6uGYQI44lKTDP7OHJQ9hIT/+5tfKPHIPhU richard> M/7Mqa8y81c/AK+WUOyY9+uZ0zUxFGMqeU9z5iqJFWSi9QR/f5q/khfmqi5RFVyQ richard> nnVhxBMB8pY1vZHV1CoL7NLK4c/N8mpwCiZ57LTsP8pLfDMWF/OopmM2ulzlfWTr richard> anAdxQohenq/zTgSySX/VGZYSYvyAoXTRuU4USAVGWcUQPnVooA1N7lZP3pawjNP richard> QMSukx9jI1673BPsPXxyQZ1PmmPt9eHKI0G0hNJG+FCmSRLNT/R7hqTzTUmpgMWM richard> yyWPiEkEGBECAAkFAkCGpvkCGwwACgkQjGqWTlNTP642KACeITHq0b42P3oMX7Nj richard> F5U3EaqCgYoAn3HxUB7ELB6vMUugW4aSmZpBJOR6 =ZaJO -----END richard> PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- -- http://ronspace.org/ From greg.edwards at lmco.com Thu Jun 17 09:39:10 2004 From: greg.edwards at lmco.com (Edwards, Greg) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 09:39:10 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA Message-ID: <982A2933712F3740921D842654ED470D06D2E365@emss01m12.us.lmco.com> There is a problem with BayISSA. Suggest another set of letter. See www.issa.org or www.sv-issa.org (and you all are all welcome to the Silicon Valley ISSA meetings). Thank you Greg Edwards CISSP, GCIH -----Original Message----- From: owner-baylisa at baylisa.org [mailto:owner-baylisa at baylisa.org]On Behalf Of richard childers / kg6hac Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 7:36 AM To: baylisa Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA Another thing to think about is the exclusivity implies by the acronum 'LISA'. Who defines what's 'Large'? The arrays of 500 MB hard drives I managed in 1986 - each one over a hundred pounds in weight, and requiring two strong men to lift, and a third to align with sliding rack supports - why, their data could fit into a laptop now. The same laptop contains more computing power than an entire room full of servers, 'way back when. But no one would seriously suggest that managing a small stack of laptops is equivalent to managing a half a dozen server rooms. No, although the complexity within the server is an important metric of the capacity of the administrator, it is the potential interconnections with other islands of complexity which elicit another level of complexity; and it is that complexity which we administer. Not the servers, but their relationships, across networks. (I could fill fifteen minutes, easily, with a small talk on objectively measuring the entropy of a given network, using procedures which generate numbers which will garner respect in the board room; but I digress.) And yet, within the acronym LISA, I see no room for network administrators, or network service administrators ... or database administrators, for that matter. Obviously these groups have their own SIGs; and yet, administration of servers and their services is closely linked to authentication mechanisms, which are increasingly distributed and must be seen in their proper context - which is that they are simply another service, and that database administrators are, fundamentally, providers of a service that is server-based nd network-delivered, and for that reason, they can best be regarded as network service administrators, like the rest of us. (Indeed, the market itself is saying as much. How many ads do you see for someone to administer their Linux servers, Windows clients, Mac clients, database, do a little SQL, administer their firewall, maintain their router, and maybe tap-dance, too? The boundaries that exist in the IT marketplace are largely a result of organizational, and consequently, budgetary, boundaries, which the current economic slump has erased - they do not reflect the actual problems [which span from the desktops, across the networks, to the servers] or the capacities of the individuals whose job it is to troubleshoot them.) The acronym 'LISA' is dated for another reason; it alludes to a period when big iron was predominant. This is no longer the case. Distributed computing is increasingly a player in scientific communities - and by that term I include hackers, of course. Wireless connectivity isn't just over the horizon, it's here, and the speed is increasing every year. Using a volt-ohm-meter remains an important skill - but so does orienting an antenna for maximum gain. Sure, you'll still find pockets of concentrated computing capacity, but nowadays, with a gHz laptop in almost every house, the mean mHz of computing power per square acre of urban landscape has taken a big step upwards. I'd like to propose disbanding BayLISA, and creating BayISSA - 'ISSA' as referring to 'Information Systems & Services Administrators', which comprises network administrators, network services administrators, and server administrators, without drawing any boundaries which exclude. Regards, -- richard -- Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services 945 Taraval Street, #105 San Francisco, CA 94116 USA [011.]1.415.759.5571 http://www.daemonized.com -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) mQGiBECGpfsRBACoPJJfIIrWAqjlW92TtYCtY//e7OW8alWylr/1ygtSQzjCCdvC Ysa0fCcx01UenlWV+5YY/zC7KPsX2rQUKAs20fqs9et74dmgMGOj0vMjTzWEs29G FyAsIRSpFioa8zzrjXEUVnU6OFaD9a9eaC+LSTCiKgXjbQySDKM5T1c+vwCg8W3Y RZ83LRIUULGMPlY6zS4fQwUEAIIiTHDdWpbE+HeREJwH+4eDpGVf76XtNlOMXrt9 tJ3ExL+9ezLulg1nCrOYodOB7TEZqzV40R7emDZSX0hI9QEBCv6nW5aDVpw/bf+q UEHwxrUvE2LBi35hoqR2QwqNlagOauSorWj8Qm/31luxJVeLVy1A1czp6B/mvG1T co03A/9a5kzEAebJ5TzWXQC2/4gu/osXQnrw9B9FFpYOtLc0MNQuAFt8VLn5yO5Q 8T58w+FQvFI5FqzI5URmjQeEyWWuyIechknk4RnwIO1UPVjgRTuNgf9/TvNNfqpa aVlbNp+AG21D6VqsFN2zJFFJeUqiYdXw6i+ESL3SZRymIhwYWrQ8UmljaGFyZCBB IENoaWxkZXJzICh3d3cuZGFlbW9uaXplZC5jb20pIDxmc2NrZWRAcGFjYmVsbC5u ZXQ+iF4EExECAB4FAkCGpfsCGwMGCwkIBwMCAxUCAwMWAgECHgECF4AACgkQjGqW TlNTP66KzQCgjf0SQbiK1rgu7hRsmLPSSaGF7X8AoL7Qw/E9kTZr0fntP0XXEnk/ q6nRuQINBECGpvkQCADFzFq+kYbk+KTIhcVBTjTWDbBnjGgmuGR3LGp9hOd6W9SJ i4GD5184ZnMbEgvDZcDEGDNgMcU+f1girwYI2v/o7QA7VQ5bpUbnfOBytzO+bvd7 uCOyJltg8AG5MFLxfhAMHofpNxGlFTEXdVp4M9xyBB+hdLHbJNJqkMGPf+iCUf1W Q86KncU2AK4Sf9I+WYBZwkjaIhi9dQzeEX1c0Um6LxXSBtkjZprIk1M13gVaIJ6E dDN6hrSMbXZL+7yURw38vHXCtRJAKEOyW178rI8MzJzvVNhobvC62uEWD9Idz8sH 5A06fqb2fKJYLQ1keGUpb/qpny7oTmAe0Hx9jOM7AAMGCACdTe1M4U++/7/OVGip 1gnWEtMhHeQQbS7KPh1w8/1kvs5Mml6uGYQI44lKTDP7OHJQ9hIT/+5tfKPHIPhU M/7Mqa8y81c/AK+WUOyY9+uZ0zUxFGMqeU9z5iqJFWSi9QR/f5q/khfmqi5RFVyQ nnVhxBMB8pY1vZHV1CoL7NLK4c/N8mpwCiZ57LTsP8pLfDMWF/OopmM2ulzlfWTr anAdxQohenq/zTgSySX/VGZYSYvyAoXTRuU4USAVGWcUQPnVooA1N7lZP3pawjNP QMSukx9jI1673BPsPXxyQZ1PmmPt9eHKI0G0hNJG+FCmSRLNT/R7hqTzTUmpgMWM yyWPiEkEGBECAAkFAkCGpvkCGwwACgkQjGqWTlNTP642KACeITHq0b42P3oMX7Nj F5U3EaqCgYoAn3HxUB7ELB6vMUugW4aSmZpBJOR6 =ZaJO -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From jxh at jxh.com Thu Jun 17 09:51:48 2004 From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:51:48 -0500 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <40D1AC3F.8050405@pacbell.net> References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> <20040615203221.GB5397@starshine.org> <40D09D2F.1070602@virtual.net> <2147483647.1087397560@216-127-207-61.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1AC3F.8050405@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <2147483647.1087473108@216-127-207-67.strgbay.dcwis.com> > Another thing to think about is the exclusivity implies by the acronum > 'LISA'. Implied maybe, but not actual. The meetings are free and open to the public, and the topics are often relevant to wide (if technical) audiences. Nothing about it is exclusive. Rather than throwing away a name with historical value, and picking a fight with ISSA, maybe we should worry about changing something more substantive than the name, if any change is needed. Put up a blurb on the web site specifically inviting anyone doing anything with computers. From mark at bitshift.org Thu Jun 17 09:54:38 2004 From: mark at bitshift.org (Mark C. Langston) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 09:54:38 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <40D1AC3F.8050405@pacbell.net> References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> <20040615203221.GB5397@starshine.org> <40D09D2F.1070602@virtual.net> <2147483647.1087397560@216-127-207-61.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1AC3F.8050405@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20040617165438.GH797@bitshift.org> On Thu, Jun 17, 2004 at 07:35:43AM -0700, richard childers / kg6hac wrote: > Another thing to think about is the exclusivity implies by the acronum > 'LISA'. > It's my understanding that the expansion of the acronym fell by the wayside some time ago, and that "LISA" is no longer expanded. At least, that was what I've been given to understand by the USENIX folks I've talked to. As BayLISA's inspired by that conference, both in name and content, I see no reason why we couldn't just drop the expansion and keep the name. After all, it's got a certain cachet. -- Mark C. Langston Sr. Unix SysAdmin mark at bitshift.org mark at seti.org Systems & Network Admin SETI Institute http://bitshift.org http://www.seti.org From greg.edwards at lmco.com Thu Jun 17 09:39:10 2004 From: greg.edwards at lmco.com (Edwards, Greg) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 09:39:10 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA Message-ID: <982A2933712F3740921D842654ED470D06D2E365@emss01m12.us.lmco.com> There is a problem with BayISSA. Suggest another set of letter. See www.issa.org or www.sv-issa.org (and you all are all welcome to the Silicon Valley ISSA meetings). Thank you Greg Edwards CISSP, GCIH -----Original Message----- From: owner-baylisa at baylisa.org [mailto:owner-baylisa at baylisa.org]On Behalf Of richard childers / kg6hac Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 7:36 AM To: baylisa Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA Another thing to think about is the exclusivity implies by the acronum 'LISA'. Who defines what's 'Large'? The arrays of 500 MB hard drives I managed in 1986 - each one over a hundred pounds in weight, and requiring two strong men to lift, and a third to align with sliding rack supports - why, their data could fit into a laptop now. The same laptop contains more computing power than an entire room full of servers, 'way back when. But no one would seriously suggest that managing a small stack of laptops is equivalent to managing a half a dozen server rooms. No, although the complexity within the server is an important metric of the capacity of the administrator, it is the potential interconnections with other islands of complexity which elicit another level of complexity; and it is that complexity which we administer. Not the servers, but their relationships, across networks. (I could fill fifteen minutes, easily, with a small talk on objectively measuring the entropy of a given network, using procedures which generate numbers which will garner respect in the board room; but I digress.) And yet, within the acronym LISA, I see no room for network administrators, or network service administrators ... or database administrators, for that matter. Obviously these groups have their own SIGs; and yet, administration of servers and their services is closely linked to authentication mechanisms, which are increasingly distributed and must be seen in their proper context - which is that they are simply another service, and that database administrators are, fundamentally, providers of a service that is server-based nd network-delivered, and for that reason, they can best be regarded as network service administrators, like the rest of us. (Indeed, the market itself is saying as much. How many ads do you see for someone to administer their Linux servers, Windows clients, Mac clients, database, do a little SQL, administer their firewall, maintain their router, and maybe tap-dance, too? The boundaries that exist in the IT marketplace are largely a result of organizational, and consequently, budgetary, boundaries, which the current economic slump has erased - they do not reflect the actual problems [which span from the desktops, across the networks, to the servers] or the capacities of the individuals whose job it is to troubleshoot them.) The acronym 'LISA' is dated for another reason; it alludes to a period when big iron was predominant. This is no longer the case. Distributed computing is increasingly a player in scientific communities - and by that term I include hackers, of course. Wireless connectivity isn't just over the horizon, it's here, and the speed is increasing every year. Using a volt-ohm-meter remains an important skill - but so does orienting an antenna for maximum gain. Sure, you'll still find pockets of concentrated computing capacity, but nowadays, with a gHz laptop in almost every house, the mean mHz of computing power per square acre of urban landscape has taken a big step upwards. I'd like to propose disbanding BayLISA, and creating BayISSA - 'ISSA' as referring to 'Information Systems & Services Administrators', which comprises network administrators, network services administrators, and server administrators, without drawing any boundaries which exclude. Regards, -- richard -- Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services 945 Taraval Street, #105 San Francisco, CA 94116 USA [011.]1.415.759.5571 http://www.daemonized.com -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) mQGiBECGpfsRBACoPJJfIIrWAqjlW92TtYCtY//e7OW8alWylr/1ygtSQzjCCdvC Ysa0fCcx01UenlWV+5YY/zC7KPsX2rQUKAs20fqs9et74dmgMGOj0vMjTzWEs29G FyAsIRSpFioa8zzrjXEUVnU6OFaD9a9eaC+LSTCiKgXjbQySDKM5T1c+vwCg8W3Y RZ83LRIUULGMPlY6zS4fQwUEAIIiTHDdWpbE+HeREJwH+4eDpGVf76XtNlOMXrt9 tJ3ExL+9ezLulg1nCrOYodOB7TEZqzV40R7emDZSX0hI9QEBCv6nW5aDVpw/bf+q UEHwxrUvE2LBi35hoqR2QwqNlagOauSorWj8Qm/31luxJVeLVy1A1czp6B/mvG1T co03A/9a5kzEAebJ5TzWXQC2/4gu/osXQnrw9B9FFpYOtLc0MNQuAFt8VLn5yO5Q 8T58w+FQvFI5FqzI5URmjQeEyWWuyIechknk4RnwIO1UPVjgRTuNgf9/TvNNfqpa aVlbNp+AG21D6VqsFN2zJFFJeUqiYdXw6i+ESL3SZRymIhwYWrQ8UmljaGFyZCBB IENoaWxkZXJzICh3d3cuZGFlbW9uaXplZC5jb20pIDxmc2NrZWRAcGFjYmVsbC5u ZXQ+iF4EExECAB4FAkCGpfsCGwMGCwkIBwMCAxUCAwMWAgECHgECF4AACgkQjGqW TlNTP66KzQCgjf0SQbiK1rgu7hRsmLPSSaGF7X8AoL7Qw/E9kTZr0fntP0XXEnk/ q6nRuQINBECGpvkQCADFzFq+kYbk+KTIhcVBTjTWDbBnjGgmuGR3LGp9hOd6W9SJ i4GD5184ZnMbEgvDZcDEGDNgMcU+f1girwYI2v/o7QA7VQ5bpUbnfOBytzO+bvd7 uCOyJltg8AG5MFLxfhAMHofpNxGlFTEXdVp4M9xyBB+hdLHbJNJqkMGPf+iCUf1W Q86KncU2AK4Sf9I+WYBZwkjaIhi9dQzeEX1c0Um6LxXSBtkjZprIk1M13gVaIJ6E dDN6hrSMbXZL+7yURw38vHXCtRJAKEOyW178rI8MzJzvVNhobvC62uEWD9Idz8sH 5A06fqb2fKJYLQ1keGUpb/qpny7oTmAe0Hx9jOM7AAMGCACdTe1M4U++/7/OVGip 1gnWEtMhHeQQbS7KPh1w8/1kvs5Mml6uGYQI44lKTDP7OHJQ9hIT/+5tfKPHIPhU M/7Mqa8y81c/AK+WUOyY9+uZ0zUxFGMqeU9z5iqJFWSi9QR/f5q/khfmqi5RFVyQ nnVhxBMB8pY1vZHV1CoL7NLK4c/N8mpwCiZ57LTsP8pLfDMWF/OopmM2ulzlfWTr anAdxQohenq/zTgSySX/VGZYSYvyAoXTRuU4USAVGWcUQPnVooA1N7lZP3pawjNP QMSukx9jI1673BPsPXxyQZ1PmmPt9eHKI0G0hNJG+FCmSRLNT/R7hqTzTUmpgMWM yyWPiEkEGBECAAkFAkCGpvkCGwwACgkQjGqWTlNTP642KACeITHq0b42P3oMX7Nj F5U3EaqCgYoAn3HxUB7ELB6vMUugW4aSmZpBJOR6 =ZaJO -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From fscked at pacbell.net Thu Jun 17 10:17:47 2004 From: fscked at pacbell.net (richard childers / kg6hac) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 10:17:47 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1087473108@216-127-207-67.strgbay.dcwis.com> References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> <20040615203221.GB5397@starshine.org> <40D09D2F.1070602@virtual.net> <2147483647.1087397560@216-127-207-61.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1AC3F.8050405@pacbell.net> <2147483647.1087473108@216-127-207-67.strgbay.dcwis.com> Message-ID: <40D1D23B.6080200@pacbell.net> '... picking a fight with ISSA ..." [1] I don't think I've ever heard of ISSA, so there's no basis for such a statement. [2] Shared acronyms are only a problem if you're a member of both organizations. There is no copyright on acronyms. LISA has no obligations to ISSA. [3] Personally, I've been administering large installations, and system security, since before either organization existed, so I have no emotional investment in either acronym; they are both new kids on the block, and the block is getting kind of crowded. It's no secret that LISA is top-heavy with management who are long on politics and short on sharing their (frequently alluded to, but rarely displayed) expertise; it's time for a change. Regards, -- richard Jim Hickstein wrote: >> Another thing to think about is the exclusivity implies by the acronum >> 'LISA'. > > > Implied maybe, but not actual. The meetings are free and open to the > public, and the topics are often relevant to wide (if technical) > audiences. Nothing about it is exclusive. > > Rather than throwing away a name with historical value, and picking a > fight with ISSA, maybe we should worry about changing something more > substantive than the name, if any change is needed. Put up a blurb on > the web site specifically inviting anyone doing anything with computers. > -- Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services 945 Taraval Street, #105 San Francisco, CA 94116 USA [011.]1.415.759.5571 http://www.daemonized.com -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) mQGiBECGpfsRBACoPJJfIIrWAqjlW92TtYCtY//e7OW8alWylr/1ygtSQzjCCdvC Ysa0fCcx01UenlWV+5YY/zC7KPsX2rQUKAs20fqs9et74dmgMGOj0vMjTzWEs29G FyAsIRSpFioa8zzrjXEUVnU6OFaD9a9eaC+LSTCiKgXjbQySDKM5T1c+vwCg8W3Y RZ83LRIUULGMPlY6zS4fQwUEAIIiTHDdWpbE+HeREJwH+4eDpGVf76XtNlOMXrt9 tJ3ExL+9ezLulg1nCrOYodOB7TEZqzV40R7emDZSX0hI9QEBCv6nW5aDVpw/bf+q UEHwxrUvE2LBi35hoqR2QwqNlagOauSorWj8Qm/31luxJVeLVy1A1czp6B/mvG1T co03A/9a5kzEAebJ5TzWXQC2/4gu/osXQnrw9B9FFpYOtLc0MNQuAFt8VLn5yO5Q 8T58w+FQvFI5FqzI5URmjQeEyWWuyIechknk4RnwIO1UPVjgRTuNgf9/TvNNfqpa aVlbNp+AG21D6VqsFN2zJFFJeUqiYdXw6i+ESL3SZRymIhwYWrQ8UmljaGFyZCBB IENoaWxkZXJzICh3d3cuZGFlbW9uaXplZC5jb20pIDxmc2NrZWRAcGFjYmVsbC5u ZXQ+iF4EExECAB4FAkCGpfsCGwMGCwkIBwMCAxUCAwMWAgECHgECF4AACgkQjGqW TlNTP66KzQCgjf0SQbiK1rgu7hRsmLPSSaGF7X8AoL7Qw/E9kTZr0fntP0XXEnk/ q6nRuQINBECGpvkQCADFzFq+kYbk+KTIhcVBTjTWDbBnjGgmuGR3LGp9hOd6W9SJ i4GD5184ZnMbEgvDZcDEGDNgMcU+f1girwYI2v/o7QA7VQ5bpUbnfOBytzO+bvd7 uCOyJltg8AG5MFLxfhAMHofpNxGlFTEXdVp4M9xyBB+hdLHbJNJqkMGPf+iCUf1W Q86KncU2AK4Sf9I+WYBZwkjaIhi9dQzeEX1c0Um6LxXSBtkjZprIk1M13gVaIJ6E dDN6hrSMbXZL+7yURw38vHXCtRJAKEOyW178rI8MzJzvVNhobvC62uEWD9Idz8sH 5A06fqb2fKJYLQ1keGUpb/qpny7oTmAe0Hx9jOM7AAMGCACdTe1M4U++/7/OVGip 1gnWEtMhHeQQbS7KPh1w8/1kvs5Mml6uGYQI44lKTDP7OHJQ9hIT/+5tfKPHIPhU M/7Mqa8y81c/AK+WUOyY9+uZ0zUxFGMqeU9z5iqJFWSi9QR/f5q/khfmqi5RFVyQ nnVhxBMB8pY1vZHV1CoL7NLK4c/N8mpwCiZ57LTsP8pLfDMWF/OopmM2ulzlfWTr anAdxQohenq/zTgSySX/VGZYSYvyAoXTRuU4USAVGWcUQPnVooA1N7lZP3pawjNP QMSukx9jI1673BPsPXxyQZ1PmmPt9eHKI0G0hNJG+FCmSRLNT/R7hqTzTUmpgMWM yyWPiEkEGBECAAkFAkCGpvkCGwwACgkQjGqWTlNTP642KACeITHq0b42P3oMX7Nj F5U3EaqCgYoAn3HxUB7ELB6vMUugW4aSmZpBJOR6 =ZaJO -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From greg.edwards at lmco.com Thu Jun 17 09:39:10 2004 From: greg.edwards at lmco.com (Edwards, Greg) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 09:39:10 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA Message-ID: <982A2933712F3740921D842654ED470D06D2E365@emss01m12.us.lmco.com> There is a problem with BayISSA. Suggest another set of letter. See www.issa.org or www.sv-issa.org (and you all are all welcome to the Silicon Valley ISSA meetings). Thank you Greg Edwards CISSP, GCIH -----Original Message----- From: owner-baylisa at baylisa.org [mailto:owner-baylisa at baylisa.org]On Behalf Of richard childers / kg6hac Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 7:36 AM To: baylisa Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA Another thing to think about is the exclusivity implies by the acronum 'LISA'. Who defines what's 'Large'? The arrays of 500 MB hard drives I managed in 1986 - each one over a hundred pounds in weight, and requiring two strong men to lift, and a third to align with sliding rack supports - why, their data could fit into a laptop now. The same laptop contains more computing power than an entire room full of servers, 'way back when. But no one would seriously suggest that managing a small stack of laptops is equivalent to managing a half a dozen server rooms. No, although the complexity within the server is an important metric of the capacity of the administrator, it is the potential interconnections with other islands of complexity which elicit another level of complexity; and it is that complexity which we administer. Not the servers, but their relationships, across networks. (I could fill fifteen minutes, easily, with a small talk on objectively measuring the entropy of a given network, using procedures which generate numbers which will garner respect in the board room; but I digress.) And yet, within the acronym LISA, I see no room for network administrators, or network service administrators ... or database administrators, for that matter. Obviously these groups have their own SIGs; and yet, administration of servers and their services is closely linked to authentication mechanisms, which are increasingly distributed and must be seen in their proper context - which is that they are simply another service, and that database administrators are, fundamentally, providers of a service that is server-based nd network-delivered, and for that reason, they can best be regarded as network service administrators, like the rest of us. (Indeed, the market itself is saying as much. How many ads do you see for someone to administer their Linux servers, Windows clients, Mac clients, database, do a little SQL, administer their firewall, maintain their router, and maybe tap-dance, too? The boundaries that exist in the IT marketplace are largely a result of organizational, and consequently, budgetary, boundaries, which the current economic slump has erased - they do not reflect the actual problems [which span from the desktops, across the networks, to the servers] or the capacities of the individuals whose job it is to troubleshoot them.) The acronym 'LISA' is dated for another reason; it alludes to a period when big iron was predominant. This is no longer the case. Distributed computing is increasingly a player in scientific communities - and by that term I include hackers, of course. Wireless connectivity isn't just over the horizon, it's here, and the speed is increasing every year. Using a volt-ohm-meter remains an important skill - but so does orienting an antenna for maximum gain. Sure, you'll still find pockets of concentrated computing capacity, but nowadays, with a gHz laptop in almost every house, the mean mHz of computing power per square acre of urban landscape has taken a big step upwards. I'd like to propose disbanding BayLISA, and creating BayISSA - 'ISSA' as referring to 'Information Systems & Services Administrators', which comprises network administrators, network services administrators, and server administrators, without drawing any boundaries which exclude. Regards, -- richard -- Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services 945 Taraval Street, #105 San Francisco, CA 94116 USA [011.]1.415.759.5571 http://www.daemonized.com -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) mQGiBECGpfsRBACoPJJfIIrWAqjlW92TtYCtY//e7OW8alWylr/1ygtSQzjCCdvC Ysa0fCcx01UenlWV+5YY/zC7KPsX2rQUKAs20fqs9et74dmgMGOj0vMjTzWEs29G FyAsIRSpFioa8zzrjXEUVnU6OFaD9a9eaC+LSTCiKgXjbQySDKM5T1c+vwCg8W3Y RZ83LRIUULGMPlY6zS4fQwUEAIIiTHDdWpbE+HeREJwH+4eDpGVf76XtNlOMXrt9 tJ3ExL+9ezLulg1nCrOYodOB7TEZqzV40R7emDZSX0hI9QEBCv6nW5aDVpw/bf+q UEHwxrUvE2LBi35hoqR2QwqNlagOauSorWj8Qm/31luxJVeLVy1A1czp6B/mvG1T co03A/9a5kzEAebJ5TzWXQC2/4gu/osXQnrw9B9FFpYOtLc0MNQuAFt8VLn5yO5Q 8T58w+FQvFI5FqzI5URmjQeEyWWuyIechknk4RnwIO1UPVjgRTuNgf9/TvNNfqpa aVlbNp+AG21D6VqsFN2zJFFJeUqiYdXw6i+ESL3SZRymIhwYWrQ8UmljaGFyZCBB IENoaWxkZXJzICh3d3cuZGFlbW9uaXplZC5jb20pIDxmc2NrZWRAcGFjYmVsbC5u ZXQ+iF4EExECAB4FAkCGpfsCGwMGCwkIBwMCAxUCAwMWAgECHgECF4AACgkQjGqW TlNTP66KzQCgjf0SQbiK1rgu7hRsmLPSSaGF7X8AoL7Qw/E9kTZr0fntP0XXEnk/ q6nRuQINBECGpvkQCADFzFq+kYbk+KTIhcVBTjTWDbBnjGgmuGR3LGp9hOd6W9SJ i4GD5184ZnMbEgvDZcDEGDNgMcU+f1girwYI2v/o7QA7VQ5bpUbnfOBytzO+bvd7 uCOyJltg8AG5MFLxfhAMHofpNxGlFTEXdVp4M9xyBB+hdLHbJNJqkMGPf+iCUf1W Q86KncU2AK4Sf9I+WYBZwkjaIhi9dQzeEX1c0Um6LxXSBtkjZprIk1M13gVaIJ6E dDN6hrSMbXZL+7yURw38vHXCtRJAKEOyW178rI8MzJzvVNhobvC62uEWD9Idz8sH 5A06fqb2fKJYLQ1keGUpb/qpny7oTmAe0Hx9jOM7AAMGCACdTe1M4U++/7/OVGip 1gnWEtMhHeQQbS7KPh1w8/1kvs5Mml6uGYQI44lKTDP7OHJQ9hIT/+5tfKPHIPhU M/7Mqa8y81c/AK+WUOyY9+uZ0zUxFGMqeU9z5iqJFWSi9QR/f5q/khfmqi5RFVyQ nnVhxBMB8pY1vZHV1CoL7NLK4c/N8mpwCiZ57LTsP8pLfDMWF/OopmM2ulzlfWTr anAdxQohenq/zTgSySX/VGZYSYvyAoXTRuU4USAVGWcUQPnVooA1N7lZP3pawjNP QMSukx9jI1673BPsPXxyQZ1PmmPt9eHKI0G0hNJG+FCmSRLNT/R7hqTzTUmpgMWM yyWPiEkEGBECAAkFAkCGpvkCGwwACgkQjGqWTlNTP642KACeITHq0b42P3oMX7Nj F5U3EaqCgYoAn3HxUB7ELB6vMUugW4aSmZpBJOR6 =ZaJO -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From greg.edwards at lmco.com Thu Jun 17 09:39:10 2004 From: greg.edwards at lmco.com (Edwards, Greg) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 09:39:10 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA Message-ID: <982A2933712F3740921D842654ED470D06D2E365@emss01m12.us.lmco.com> There is a problem with BayISSA. Suggest another set of letter. See www.issa.org or www.sv-issa.org (and you all are all welcome to the Silicon Valley ISSA meetings). Thank you Greg Edwards CISSP, GCIH -----Original Message----- From: owner-baylisa at baylisa.org [mailto:owner-baylisa at baylisa.org]On Behalf Of richard childers / kg6hac Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 7:36 AM To: baylisa Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA Another thing to think about is the exclusivity implies by the acronum 'LISA'. Who defines what's 'Large'? The arrays of 500 MB hard drives I managed in 1986 - each one over a hundred pounds in weight, and requiring two strong men to lift, and a third to align with sliding rack supports - why, their data could fit into a laptop now. The same laptop contains more computing power than an entire room full of servers, 'way back when. But no one would seriously suggest that managing a small stack of laptops is equivalent to managing a half a dozen server rooms. No, although the complexity within the server is an important metric of the capacity of the administrator, it is the potential interconnections with other islands of complexity which elicit another level of complexity; and it is that complexity which we administer. Not the servers, but their relationships, across networks. (I could fill fifteen minutes, easily, with a small talk on objectively measuring the entropy of a given network, using procedures which generate numbers which will garner respect in the board room; but I digress.) And yet, within the acronym LISA, I see no room for network administrators, or network service administrators ... or database administrators, for that matter. Obviously these groups have their own SIGs; and yet, administration of servers and their services is closely linked to authentication mechanisms, which are increasingly distributed and must be seen in their proper context - which is that they are simply another service, and that database administrators are, fundamentally, providers of a service that is server-based nd network-delivered, and for that reason, they can best be regarded as network service administrators, like the rest of us. (Indeed, the market itself is saying as much. How many ads do you see for someone to administer their Linux servers, Windows clients, Mac clients, database, do a little SQL, administer their firewall, maintain their router, and maybe tap-dance, too? The boundaries that exist in the IT marketplace are largely a result of organizational, and consequently, budgetary, boundaries, which the current economic slump has erased - they do not reflect the actual problems [which span from the desktops, across the networks, to the servers] or the capacities of the individuals whose job it is to troubleshoot them.) The acronym 'LISA' is dated for another reason; it alludes to a period when big iron was predominant. This is no longer the case. Distributed computing is increasingly a player in scientific communities - and by that term I include hackers, of course. Wireless connectivity isn't just over the horizon, it's here, and the speed is increasing every year. Using a volt-ohm-meter remains an important skill - but so does orienting an antenna for maximum gain. Sure, you'll still find pockets of concentrated computing capacity, but nowadays, with a gHz laptop in almost every house, the mean mHz of computing power per square acre of urban landscape has taken a big step upwards. I'd like to propose disbanding BayLISA, and creating BayISSA - 'ISSA' as referring to 'Information Systems & Services Administrators', which comprises network administrators, network services administrators, and server administrators, without drawing any boundaries which exclude. Regards, -- richard -- Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services 945 Taraval Street, #105 San Francisco, CA 94116 USA [011.]1.415.759.5571 http://www.daemonized.com -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) mQGiBECGpfsRBACoPJJfIIrWAqjlW92TtYCtY//e7OW8alWylr/1ygtSQzjCCdvC Ysa0fCcx01UenlWV+5YY/zC7KPsX2rQUKAs20fqs9et74dmgMGOj0vMjTzWEs29G FyAsIRSpFioa8zzrjXEUVnU6OFaD9a9eaC+LSTCiKgXjbQySDKM5T1c+vwCg8W3Y RZ83LRIUULGMPlY6zS4fQwUEAIIiTHDdWpbE+HeREJwH+4eDpGVf76XtNlOMXrt9 tJ3ExL+9ezLulg1nCrOYodOB7TEZqzV40R7emDZSX0hI9QEBCv6nW5aDVpw/bf+q UEHwxrUvE2LBi35hoqR2QwqNlagOauSorWj8Qm/31luxJVeLVy1A1czp6B/mvG1T co03A/9a5kzEAebJ5TzWXQC2/4gu/osXQnrw9B9FFpYOtLc0MNQuAFt8VLn5yO5Q 8T58w+FQvFI5FqzI5URmjQeEyWWuyIechknk4RnwIO1UPVjgRTuNgf9/TvNNfqpa aVlbNp+AG21D6VqsFN2zJFFJeUqiYdXw6i+ESL3SZRymIhwYWrQ8UmljaGFyZCBB IENoaWxkZXJzICh3d3cuZGFlbW9uaXplZC5jb20pIDxmc2NrZWRAcGFjYmVsbC5u ZXQ+iF4EExECAB4FAkCGpfsCGwMGCwkIBwMCAxUCAwMWAgECHgECF4AACgkQjGqW TlNTP66KzQCgjf0SQbiK1rgu7hRsmLPSSaGF7X8AoL7Qw/E9kTZr0fntP0XXEnk/ q6nRuQINBECGpvkQCADFzFq+kYbk+KTIhcVBTjTWDbBnjGgmuGR3LGp9hOd6W9SJ i4GD5184ZnMbEgvDZcDEGDNgMcU+f1girwYI2v/o7QA7VQ5bpUbnfOBytzO+bvd7 uCOyJltg8AG5MFLxfhAMHofpNxGlFTEXdVp4M9xyBB+hdLHbJNJqkMGPf+iCUf1W Q86KncU2AK4Sf9I+WYBZwkjaIhi9dQzeEX1c0Um6LxXSBtkjZprIk1M13gVaIJ6E dDN6hrSMbXZL+7yURw38vHXCtRJAKEOyW178rI8MzJzvVNhobvC62uEWD9Idz8sH 5A06fqb2fKJYLQ1keGUpb/qpny7oTmAe0Hx9jOM7AAMGCACdTe1M4U++/7/OVGip 1gnWEtMhHeQQbS7KPh1w8/1kvs5Mml6uGYQI44lKTDP7OHJQ9hIT/+5tfKPHIPhU M/7Mqa8y81c/AK+WUOyY9+uZ0zUxFGMqeU9z5iqJFWSi9QR/f5q/khfmqi5RFVyQ nnVhxBMB8pY1vZHV1CoL7NLK4c/N8mpwCiZ57LTsP8pLfDMWF/OopmM2ulzlfWTr anAdxQohenq/zTgSySX/VGZYSYvyAoXTRuU4USAVGWcUQPnVooA1N7lZP3pawjNP QMSukx9jI1673BPsPXxyQZ1PmmPt9eHKI0G0hNJG+FCmSRLNT/R7hqTzTUmpgMWM yyWPiEkEGBECAAkFAkCGpvkCGwwACgkQjGqWTlNTP642KACeITHq0b42P3oMX7Nj F5U3EaqCgYoAn3HxUB7ELB6vMUugW4aSmZpBJOR6 =ZaJO -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From rolnif at mac.com Thu Jun 17 10:33:11 2004 From: rolnif at mac.com (John Martinez) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 10:33:11 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <20040617165438.GH797@bitshift.org> References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> <20040615203221.GB5397@starshine.org> <40D09D2F.1070602@virtual.net> <2147483647.1087397560@216-127-207-61.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1AC3F.8050405@pacbell.net> <20040617165438.GH797@bitshift.org> Message-ID: <6791E9BF-C084-11D8-B4F8-000A959A1868@mac.com> On Jun 17, 2004, at 9:54 AM, Mark C. Langston wrote: > It's my understanding that the expansion of the acronym fell by > the wayside some time ago, and that "LISA" is no longer expanded. > At least, that was what I've been given to understand by the > USENIX folks I've talked to. I don't know, the conference I plan on attending late this year still goes by the old name. -john From jxh at jxh.com Thu Jun 17 10:50:00 2004 From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 12:50:00 -0500 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <20040617165438.GH797@bitshift.org> References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> <20040615203221.GB5397@starshine.org> <40D09D2F.1070602@virtual.net> <2147483647.1087397560@216-127-207-61.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1AC3F.8050405@pacbell.net> <20040617165438.GH797@bitshift.org> Message-ID: <2147483647.1087476600@216-127-207-67.strgbay.dcwis.com> > It's my understanding that the expansion of the acronym fell by > the wayside some time ago, and that "LISA" is no longer expanded. > At least, that was what I've been given to understand by the > USENIX folks I've talked to. Well, it's prominently expanded at www.baylisa.org today. Maybe that's a worthwhile change? A new tag-line? "The Bay Area's oldest ..." what? (I know: don't feed the trolls. :-) > As BayLISA's inspired by that conference, both in name and content, ... or the other way around, I think. No matter. From jxh at jxh.com Thu Jun 17 10:52:35 2004 From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 12:52:35 -0500 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <40D1D23B.6080200@pacbell.net> References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> <20040615203221.GB5397@starshine.org> <40D09D2F.1070602@virtual.net> <2147483647.1087397560@216-127-207-61.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1AC3F.8050405@pacbell.net> <2147483647.1087473108@216-127-207-67.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1D23B.6080200@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <2147483647.1087476755@216-127-207-67.strgbay.dcwis.com> > It's no secret that LISA is top-heavy with management who are long on > politics and short on sharing their (frequently alluded to, but rarely > displayed) expertise; it's time for a change. On the contrary, it seems more like the Marie Celeste lately. Run for election to the board in November. New ideas and new energy are always wanted. From sigje at sigje.org Thu Jun 17 10:59:31 2004 From: sigje at sigje.org (Jennifer Davis) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 10:59:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AIX question Message-ID: On a totally non-change the acronym that works fine topic, anyone know how to boot AIX into single user mode over a serial console? (No IBM keyboard available, and no key on the front to change to single user mode..) Jennifer Davis From mark at bitshift.org Thu Jun 17 10:59:14 2004 From: mark at bitshift.org (Mark C. Langston) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 10:59:14 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1087476600@216-127-207-67.strgbay.dcwis.com> References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> <20040615203221.GB5397@starshine.org> <40D09D2F.1070602@virtual.net> <2147483647.1087397560@216-127-207-61.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1AC3F.8050405@pacbell.net> <20040617165438.GH797@bitshift.org> <2147483647.1087476600@216-127-207-67.strgbay.dcwis.com> Message-ID: <20040617175914.GJ797@bitshift.org> On Thu, Jun 17, 2004 at 12:50:00PM -0500, Jim Hickstein wrote: > > >As BayLISA's inspired by that conference, both in name and content, > > ... or the other way around, I think. No matter. Not according to BayLISA's own website. ;) -- Mark C. Langston Sr. Unix SysAdmin mark at bitshift.org mark at seti.org Systems & Network Admin SETI Institute http://bitshift.org http://www.seti.org From mark at bitshift.org Thu Jun 17 11:01:10 2004 From: mark at bitshift.org (Mark C. Langston) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:01:10 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <6791E9BF-C084-11D8-B4F8-000A959A1868@mac.com> References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> <20040615203221.GB5397@starshine.org> <40D09D2F.1070602@virtual.net> <2147483647.1087397560@216-127-207-61.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1AC3F.8050405@pacbell.net> <20040617165438.GH797@bitshift.org> <6791E9BF-C084-11D8-B4F8-000A959A1868@mac.com> Message-ID: <20040617180110.GK797@bitshift.org> On Thu, Jun 17, 2004 at 10:33:11AM -0700, John Martinez wrote: > > On Jun 17, 2004, at 9:54 AM, Mark C. Langston wrote: > > >It's my understanding that the expansion of the acronym fell by > >the wayside some time ago, and that "LISA" is no longer expanded. > >At least, that was what I've been given to understand by the > >USENIX folks I've talked to. > > I don't know, the conference I plan on attending late this year still > goes by the old name. > > > Hm. No surprise there, then. It wouldn't be the first time various board members of USENIX and LISA have changed their story on something. -- Mark C. Langston Sr. Unix SysAdmin mark at bitshift.org mark at seti.org Systems & Network Admin SETI Institute http://bitshift.org http://www.seti.org From mark at bitshift.org Thu Jun 17 11:05:39 2004 From: mark at bitshift.org (Mark C. Langston) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:05:39 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <20040617180110.GK797@bitshift.org> References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> <20040615203221.GB5397@starshine.org> <40D09D2F.1070602@virtual.net> <2147483647.1087397560@216-127-207-61.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1AC3F.8050405@pacbell.net> <20040617165438.GH797@bitshift.org> <6791E9BF-C084-11D8-B4F8-000A959A1868@mac.com> <20040617180110.GK797@bitshift.org> Message-ID: <20040617180539.GL797@bitshift.org> On Thu, Jun 17, 2004 at 11:01:10AM -0700, Mark C. Langston wrote: > > Hm. No surprise there, then. It wouldn't be the first time various > board members of USENIX and LISA have changed their story on something. > gah. s/LISA/SAGE/ . Never type and talk on a phone simultaneously. -- Mark C. Langston Sr. Unix SysAdmin mark at bitshift.org mark at seti.org Systems & Network Admin SETI Institute http://bitshift.org http://www.seti.org From rick at linuxmafia.com Thu Jun 17 11:08:43 2004 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:08:43 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <982A2933712F3740921D842654ED470D06D2E365@emss01m12.us.lmco.com> References: <982A2933712F3740921D842654ED470D06D2E365@emss01m12.us.lmco.com> Message-ID: <20040617180843.GN12051@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Edwards, Greg (greg.edwards at lmco.com): > There is a problem with BayISSA. I would say not. However: I doubt there is any rational reason for changing the group's name, generally. There are pressing _real_ organisational challenges; this wasn't an invitation for people to trot out unreal ones. Richard Childers wrote: > Another thing to think about is the exclusivity implies by the acronum > 'LISA'. This is a FAQ. > Who defines what's 'Large'? USENIX / SAGE, BayLISA, and BBLISA do. Some readers are perhaps unfamiliar with the history of the term in this context, which is something of a holdover. A large system is, if memory serves, one capable of real multiuser. Ergo, my 3 lb. VAIO qualifies. ;-> > And yet, within the acronym LISA, I see no room for network > administrators, or network service administrators ... or database > administrators, for that matter. synecdoche. noun. ("syn?ec?do?che") A figure of speech in which a part is used for the whole (as hand for sailor), the whole for a part (as the law for police officer), the specific for the general (as cutthroat for assassin), the general for the specific (as thief for pickpocket), or the material for the thing made from it (as steel for sword). > The acronym 'LISA' is dated [...] The term "president" for the head of the USA Executive Branch is "dated", in that it dates back to the Articles of Confederation under which the officer who _presided_ over Congress as a committee of the whole was given that title, in recognition of what he did for it. The term "press" is "dated" in that modern mechanisms of printing no longer press type against paper. Instead, paper rushes past inked rollers and then is heat-dryed. See: http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/offset-printing.htm Yet, such terms persist because they serve functions and people learn what they refer to. > it alludes to a period when big iron was predominant. Yes. And did you know that "goodbye" alludes to a time when people said (and meant) "God be with ye"? I do very much like people who want to remove archaisms and old references from our language. They're so very amusing, you see. -- Cheers, First they came for the verbs, and I said nothing, for Rick Moen verbing weirds language. Then, they arrival for the nouns rick at linuxmafia.com and I speech nothing, for I no verbs. - Peter Ellis From rsr at inorganic.org Thu Jun 17 11:13:22 2004 From: rsr at inorganic.org (Roy S. Rapoport) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:13:22 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <982A2933712F3740921D842654ED470D06D2E365@emss01m12.us.lmco.com> References: <982A2933712F3740921D842654ED470D06D2E365@emss01m12.us.lmco.com> Message-ID: <20040617181322.GE28708@puppy.inorganic.org> On Thu, Jun 17, 2004 at 09:39:10AM -0700, Edwards, Greg wrote: > There is a problem with BayISSA. Suggest another set of letter. See > www.issa.org or www.sv-issa.org Not to point out the obvious, but how about, simply, Bay Area IT Personnel? baitp.[com|org] are both available. -roy From rsr at inorganic.org Thu Jun 17 11:14:18 2004 From: rsr at inorganic.org (Roy S. Rapoport) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:14:18 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1087473108@216-127-207-67.strgbay.dcwis.com> References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> <20040615203221.GB5397@starshine.org> <40D09D2F.1070602@virtual.net> <2147483647.1087397560@216-127-207-61.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1AC3F.8050405@pacbell.net> <2147483647.1087473108@216-127-207-67.strgbay.dcwis.com> Message-ID: <20040617181418.GF28708@puppy.inorganic.org> On Thu, Jun 17, 2004 at 11:51:48AM -0500, Jim Hickstein wrote: > >Another thing to think about is the exclusivity implies by the acronum > >'LISA'. > > Implied maybe, but not actual. The meetings are free and open to the For what it's worth, last time I came to a meeting my job was as a developer. I just kept it on the down-low and hemmed and hawed if someone asked me -- "Don't ask, don't tell." :) -roy From ahorn at deorth.org Thu Jun 17 11:18:43 2004 From: ahorn at deorth.org (Alan Horn) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:18:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <20040617181322.GE28708@puppy.inorganic.org> References: <982A2933712F3740921D842654ED470D06D2E365@emss01m12.us.lmco.com> <20040617181322.GE28708@puppy.inorganic.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Roy S. Rapoport wrote: >> There is a problem with BayISSA. Suggest another set of letter. See >> www.issa.org or www.sv-issa.org > > Not to point out the obvious, but how about, simply, Bay Area IT Personnel? > baitp.[com|org] are both available. > Yuck. From rsr at inorganic.org Thu Jun 17 11:20:07 2004 From: rsr at inorganic.org (Roy S. Rapoport) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:20:07 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1087476600@216-127-207-67.strgbay.dcwis.com> References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> <20040615203221.GB5397@starshine.org> <40D09D2F.1070602@virtual.net> <2147483647.1087397560@216-127-207-61.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1AC3F.8050405@pacbell.net> <20040617165438.GH797@bitshift.org> <2147483647.1087476600@216-127-207-67.strgbay.dcwis.com> Message-ID: <20040617182007.GG28708@puppy.inorganic.org> On Thu, Jun 17, 2004 at 12:50:00PM -0500, Jim Hickstein wrote: > Well, it's prominently expanded at www.baylisa.org today. Maybe that's a > worthwhile change? A new tag-line? "The Bay Area's oldest ..." what? (I > know: don't feed the trolls. :-) "The Bay Area's Oldest Equipment is managed by these people" "The Bay Area's Oldest Organization of people who know what 'LART' means" -roy From gwen at reptiles.org Thu Jun 17 11:42:08 2004 From: gwen at reptiles.org (Gwendolynn ferch Elydyr) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 14:42:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <40D1D23B.6080200@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20040617143710.H17210-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, richard childers / kg6hac wrote: > [1] I don't think I've ever heard of ISSA, so there's no basis for > such a statement. Ignorance is not a defence ;> > [2] Shared acronyms are only a problem if you're a member of both > organizations. There is no copyright on acronyms. LISA has no > obligations to ISSA. That's fine when you're talking about organizations with radically different constituant groups and interests, but it fails miserably when you're talking about organizations that have overlapping memberships and interests. There are so many overloaded terms and acronymns out there that it doesn't make sense to deliberately conflict. > [3] Personally, I've been administering large installations, and > system security, since before either organization existed, so I have no > emotional investment in either acronym; they are both new kids on the > block, and the block is getting kind of crowded. Well - you sound like you've got an emotional investment here ;> > It's no secret that LISA is top-heavy with management who are long on > politics and short on sharing their (frequently alluded to, but rarely > displayed) expertise; it's time for a change. Really? Could you name names? I'm having trouble coming up with any well known figures that are active with SAGE/LISA that are primarily management rather than technical. In fact, the arguement's been made in the past that some of the issues with SAGE/LISA derive from the folks running it being non-management types. cheers! ========================================================================== "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now." From gwen at reptiles.org Thu Jun 17 11:47:21 2004 From: gwen at reptiles.org (Gwendolynn ferch Elydyr) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 14:47:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: AIX question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040617144352.Q17210-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Jennifer Davis wrote: > On a totally non-change the acronym that works fine topic, anyone know how > to boot AIX into single user mode over a serial console? (No IBM keyboard > available, and no key on the front to change to single user mode..) You might find: http://publib16.boulder.ibm.com/doc_link/en_US/a_doc_lib/aixbman/baseadmn/start_stop.htm useful - and I think that AIX supports 'init S' [S,s,M,m all get you to the same place] cheers! ========================================================================== "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now." From greg.edwards at lmco.com Thu Jun 17 09:39:10 2004 From: greg.edwards at lmco.com (Edwards, Greg) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 09:39:10 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA Message-ID: <982A2933712F3740921D842654ED470D06D2E365@emss01m12.us.lmco.com> There is a problem with BayISSA. Suggest another set of letter. See www.issa.org or www.sv-issa.org (and you all are all welcome to the Silicon Valley ISSA meetings). Thank you Greg Edwards CISSP, GCIH -----Original Message----- From: owner-baylisa at baylisa.org [mailto:owner-baylisa at baylisa.org]On Behalf Of richard childers / kg6hac Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 7:36 AM To: baylisa Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA Another thing to think about is the exclusivity implies by the acronum 'LISA'. Who defines what's 'Large'? The arrays of 500 MB hard drives I managed in 1986 - each one over a hundred pounds in weight, and requiring two strong men to lift, and a third to align with sliding rack supports - why, their data could fit into a laptop now. The same laptop contains more computing power than an entire room full of servers, 'way back when. But no one would seriously suggest that managing a small stack of laptops is equivalent to managing a half a dozen server rooms. No, although the complexity within the server is an important metric of the capacity of the administrator, it is the potential interconnections with other islands of complexity which elicit another level of complexity; and it is that complexity which we administer. Not the servers, but their relationships, across networks. (I could fill fifteen minutes, easily, with a small talk on objectively measuring the entropy of a given network, using procedures which generate numbers which will garner respect in the board room; but I digress.) And yet, within the acronym LISA, I see no room for network administrators, or network service administrators ... or database administrators, for that matter. Obviously these groups have their own SIGs; and yet, administration of servers and their services is closely linked to authentication mechanisms, which are increasingly distributed and must be seen in their proper context - which is that they are simply another service, and that database administrators are, fundamentally, providers of a service that is server-based nd network-delivered, and for that reason, they can best be regarded as network service administrators, like the rest of us. (Indeed, the market itself is saying as much. How many ads do you see for someone to administer their Linux servers, Windows clients, Mac clients, database, do a little SQL, administer their firewall, maintain their router, and maybe tap-dance, too? The boundaries that exist in the IT marketplace are largely a result of organizational, and consequently, budgetary, boundaries, which the current economic slump has erased - they do not reflect the actual problems [which span from the desktops, across the networks, to the servers] or the capacities of the individuals whose job it is to troubleshoot them.) The acronym 'LISA' is dated for another reason; it alludes to a period when big iron was predominant. This is no longer the case. Distributed computing is increasingly a player in scientific communities - and by that term I include hackers, of course. Wireless connectivity isn't just over the horizon, it's here, and the speed is increasing every year. Using a volt-ohm-meter remains an important skill - but so does orienting an antenna for maximum gain. Sure, you'll still find pockets of concentrated computing capacity, but nowadays, with a gHz laptop in almost every house, the mean mHz of computing power per square acre of urban landscape has taken a big step upwards. I'd like to propose disbanding BayLISA, and creating BayISSA - 'ISSA' as referring to 'Information Systems & Services Administrators', which comprises network administrators, network services administrators, and server administrators, without drawing any boundaries which exclude. Regards, -- richard -- Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services 945 Taraval Street, #105 San Francisco, CA 94116 USA [011.]1.415.759.5571 http://www.daemonized.com -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) mQGiBECGpfsRBACoPJJfIIrWAqjlW92TtYCtY//e7OW8alWylr/1ygtSQzjCCdvC Ysa0fCcx01UenlWV+5YY/zC7KPsX2rQUKAs20fqs9et74dmgMGOj0vMjTzWEs29G FyAsIRSpFioa8zzrjXEUVnU6OFaD9a9eaC+LSTCiKgXjbQySDKM5T1c+vwCg8W3Y RZ83LRIUULGMPlY6zS4fQwUEAIIiTHDdWpbE+HeREJwH+4eDpGVf76XtNlOMXrt9 tJ3ExL+9ezLulg1nCrOYodOB7TEZqzV40R7emDZSX0hI9QEBCv6nW5aDVpw/bf+q UEHwxrUvE2LBi35hoqR2QwqNlagOauSorWj8Qm/31luxJVeLVy1A1czp6B/mvG1T co03A/9a5kzEAebJ5TzWXQC2/4gu/osXQnrw9B9FFpYOtLc0MNQuAFt8VLn5yO5Q 8T58w+FQvFI5FqzI5URmjQeEyWWuyIechknk4RnwIO1UPVjgRTuNgf9/TvNNfqpa aVlbNp+AG21D6VqsFN2zJFFJeUqiYdXw6i+ESL3SZRymIhwYWrQ8UmljaGFyZCBB IENoaWxkZXJzICh3d3cuZGFlbW9uaXplZC5jb20pIDxmc2NrZWRAcGFjYmVsbC5u ZXQ+iF4EExECAB4FAkCGpfsCGwMGCwkIBwMCAxUCAwMWAgECHgECF4AACgkQjGqW TlNTP66KzQCgjf0SQbiK1rgu7hRsmLPSSaGF7X8AoL7Qw/E9kTZr0fntP0XXEnk/ q6nRuQINBECGpvkQCADFzFq+kYbk+KTIhcVBTjTWDbBnjGgmuGR3LGp9hOd6W9SJ i4GD5184ZnMbEgvDZcDEGDNgMcU+f1girwYI2v/o7QA7VQ5bpUbnfOBytzO+bvd7 uCOyJltg8AG5MFLxfhAMHofpNxGlFTEXdVp4M9xyBB+hdLHbJNJqkMGPf+iCUf1W Q86KncU2AK4Sf9I+WYBZwkjaIhi9dQzeEX1c0Um6LxXSBtkjZprIk1M13gVaIJ6E dDN6hrSMbXZL+7yURw38vHXCtRJAKEOyW178rI8MzJzvVNhobvC62uEWD9Idz8sH 5A06fqb2fKJYLQ1keGUpb/qpny7oTmAe0Hx9jOM7AAMGCACdTe1M4U++/7/OVGip 1gnWEtMhHeQQbS7KPh1w8/1kvs5Mml6uGYQI44lKTDP7OHJQ9hIT/+5tfKPHIPhU M/7Mqa8y81c/AK+WUOyY9+uZ0zUxFGMqeU9z5iqJFWSi9QR/f5q/khfmqi5RFVyQ nnVhxBMB8pY1vZHV1CoL7NLK4c/N8mpwCiZ57LTsP8pLfDMWF/OopmM2ulzlfWTr anAdxQohenq/zTgSySX/VGZYSYvyAoXTRuU4USAVGWcUQPnVooA1N7lZP3pawjNP QMSukx9jI1673BPsPXxyQZ1PmmPt9eHKI0G0hNJG+FCmSRLNT/R7hqTzTUmpgMWM yyWPiEkEGBECAAkFAkCGpvkCGwwACgkQjGqWTlNTP642KACeITHq0b42P3oMX7Nj F5U3EaqCgYoAn3HxUB7ELB6vMUugW4aSmZpBJOR6 =ZaJO -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From deirdre at deirdre.net Thu Jun 17 11:54:16 2004 From: deirdre at deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse Moen) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <20040617182007.GG28708@puppy.inorganic.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Roy S. Rapoport wrote: > "The Bay Area's Oldest Organization of people who know what 'LART' means" ::snrch:: "The Bay Area's Oldest Pimply-Faced Youths." -- _Deirdre http://deirdre.net "Memes are a hoax! Pass it on!" From zwicky at greatcircle.com Thu Jun 17 11:55:11 2004 From: zwicky at greatcircle.com (Elizabeth Zwicky) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:55:11 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <40D1D23B.6080200@pacbell.net> References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> <20040615203221.GB5397@starshine.org> <40D09D2F.1070602@virtual.net> <2147483647.1087397560@216-127-207-61.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1AC3F.8050405@pacbell.net> <2147483647.1087473108@216-127-207-67.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1D23B.6080200@pacbell.net> Message-ID: My experience with volunteer organizations suggests this is pointless, but I feel morally obliged to do it anyway: ALL TIME SPENT ARGUING ABOUT THE NAME IS WASTED. Every single moment of my life I have spent discussing the names of BayLISA, LISA, SAGE, SAGE-AU, and USENIX is a wasted moment I could have spent doing something more productive, like studying my navel lint. And I've spent *days* of my life on this. It has never acheived anything whatsoever. Replacing the name has never helped any organization I've ever been with, including the companies where thank goodness I have never had to actually participate in the decision, and discussing it is divisive and costs immense amounts of time. All names for organizations suck. Unless you have one that is horrifically worse than usual (your organization is called "Stupid Annoying People of America", for instance) the only effective thing to do about it is to accept it and move on. Elizabeth ---- zwicky at greatcircle.com Newest project: Opal Eleanor Armstrong Zwicky, born March 4, 2004 Nothing much happened in the last year except a death, a wedding, flesh-eating bacteria, a move, and a birth. From zwicky at greatcircle.com Thu Jun 17 11:59:25 2004 From: zwicky at greatcircle.com (Elizabeth Zwicky) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:59:25 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <6791E9BF-C084-11D8-B4F8-000A959A1868@mac.com> References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> <20040615203221.GB5397@starshine.org> <40D09D2F.1070602@virtual.net> <2147483647.1087397560@216-127-207-61.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1AC3F.8050405@pacbell.net> <20040617165438.GH797@bitshift.org> <6791E9BF-C084-11D8-B4F8-000A959A1868@mac.com> Message-ID: At 10:33 AM -0700 6/17/04, John Martinez wrote: >On Jun 17, 2004, at 9:54 AM, Mark C. Langston wrote: > >>It's my understanding that the expansion of the acronym fell by >>the wayside some time ago, and that "LISA" is no longer expanded. >>At least, that was what I've been given to understand by the >>USENIX folks I've talked to. > >I don't know, the conference I plan on attending late this year >still goes by the old name. > > Actually it *again* goes by the old name. There were several years when SAGE pointlessly attempted to stamp out the expansion. Repeat after me: attempts to play with the name never help. And yes, LISA came first, then BayLISA, then SAGE. I point this out only to quash arguments on the subject (as a founder of BayLISA and of SAGE). Elizabeth ---- zwicky at greatcircle.com Newest project: Opal Eleanor Armstrong Zwicky, born March 4, 2004 Nothing much happened in the last year except a death, a wedding, flesh-eating bacteria, a move, and a birth. From sigje at sigje.org Thu Jun 17 11:57:36 2004 From: sigje at sigje.org (Jennifer Davis) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:57:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AIX question In-Reply-To: <20040617144352.Q17210-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> References: <20040617144352.Q17210-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> Message-ID: > You might find: > > http://publib16.boulder.ibm.com/doc_link/en_US/a_doc_lib/aixbman/baseadmn/start_stop.htm > Thanks, I started with that site. Specifically, the situation is this: The box is in Atlanta. The SE is claiming the serial console isn't giving him an option to go to single user mode. From my understanding he should see a menu whether he is on a serial console, or attached with monitor and IBM keyboard. I have barely touched AIX, so I'm asking in the hope that someone with many years of AIX experience can pipe up and say "Yes he should be able to see this menu and press 5 to get to single user boot from the serial console". Jennifer From jxh at jxh.com Thu Jun 17 11:57:41 2004 From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 13:57:41 -0500 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <20040617181418.GF28708@puppy.inorganic.org> References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> <20040615203221.GB5397@starshine.org> <40D09D2F.1070602@virtual.net> <2147483647.1087397560@216-127-207-61.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1AC3F.8050405@pacbell.net> <2147483647.1087473108@216-127-207-67.strgbay.dcwis.com> <20040617181418.GF28708@puppy.inorganic.org> Message-ID: <2147483647.1087480661@216-127-207-67.strgbay.dcwis.com> > For what it's worth, last time I came to a meeting my job was as a > developer. I just kept it on the down-low and hemmed and hawed if someone > asked me -- "Don't ask, don't tell." Next time, stand up and shout it! :-) There are issues in common, and we should address them. Also, the membership-database thing seems to need a developer more than a sysadmin per se. You up for it? From mark at bitshift.org Thu Jun 17 12:02:27 2004 From: mark at bitshift.org (Mark C. Langston) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 12:02:27 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: References: <20040617182007.GG28708@puppy.inorganic.org> Message-ID: <20040617190227.GN797@bitshift.org> On Thu, Jun 17, 2004 at 11:54:16AM -0700, Deirdre Saoirse Moen wrote: > On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Roy S. Rapoport wrote: > > > "The Bay Area's Oldest Organization of people who know what 'LART' means" > > ::snrch:: > > "The Bay Area's Oldest Pimply-Faced Youths." > BayLISA: Loosely-Interacting Systems Administrators. -- Mark C. Langston Sr. Unix SysAdmin mark at bitshift.org mark at seti.org Systems & Network Admin SETI Institute http://bitshift.org http://www.seti.org From rsr at inorganic.org Thu Jun 17 12:03:23 2004 From: rsr at inorganic.org (Roy S. Rapoport) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 12:03:23 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: References: <20040617182007.GG28708@puppy.inorganic.org> Message-ID: <20040617190323.GB9698@puppy.inorganic.org> On Thu, Jun 17, 2004 at 11:54:16AM -0700, Deirdre Saoirse Moen wrote: > On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Roy S. Rapoport wrote: > > > "The Bay Area's Oldest Organization of people who know what 'LART' means" > > ::snrch:: > > "The Bay Area's Oldest Pimply-Faced Youths." BayLISA: We live at home and pass the savings on to you! -roy From greg.edwards at lmco.com Thu Jun 17 09:39:10 2004 From: greg.edwards at lmco.com (Edwards, Greg) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 09:39:10 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA Message-ID: <982A2933712F3740921D842654ED470D06D2E365@emss01m12.us.lmco.com> There is a problem with BayISSA. Suggest another set of letter. See www.issa.org or www.sv-issa.org (and you all are all welcome to the Silicon Valley ISSA meetings). Thank you Greg Edwards CISSP, GCIH -----Original Message----- From: owner-baylisa at baylisa.org [mailto:owner-baylisa at baylisa.org]On Behalf Of richard childers / kg6hac Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 7:36 AM To: baylisa Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA Another thing to think about is the exclusivity implies by the acronum 'LISA'. Who defines what's 'Large'? The arrays of 500 MB hard drives I managed in 1986 - each one over a hundred pounds in weight, and requiring two strong men to lift, and a third to align with sliding rack supports - why, their data could fit into a laptop now. The same laptop contains more computing power than an entire room full of servers, 'way back when. But no one would seriously suggest that managing a small stack of laptops is equivalent to managing a half a dozen server rooms. No, although the complexity within the server is an important metric of the capacity of the administrator, it is the potential interconnections with other islands of complexity which elicit another level of complexity; and it is that complexity which we administer. Not the servers, but their relationships, across networks. (I could fill fifteen minutes, easily, with a small talk on objectively measuring the entropy of a given network, using procedures which generate numbers which will garner respect in the board room; but I digress.) And yet, within the acronym LISA, I see no room for network administrators, or network service administrators ... or database administrators, for that matter. Obviously these groups have their own SIGs; and yet, administration of servers and their services is closely linked to authentication mechanisms, which are increasingly distributed and must be seen in their proper context - which is that they are simply another service, and that database administrators are, fundamentally, providers of a service that is server-based nd network-delivered, and for that reason, they can best be regarded as network service administrators, like the rest of us. (Indeed, the market itself is saying as much. How many ads do you see for someone to administer their Linux servers, Windows clients, Mac clients, database, do a little SQL, administer their firewall, maintain their router, and maybe tap-dance, too? The boundaries that exist in the IT marketplace are largely a result of organizational, and consequently, budgetary, boundaries, which the current economic slump has erased - they do not reflect the actual problems [which span from the desktops, across the networks, to the servers] or the capacities of the individuals whose job it is to troubleshoot them.) The acronym 'LISA' is dated for another reason; it alludes to a period when big iron was predominant. This is no longer the case. Distributed computing is increasingly a player in scientific communities - and by that term I include hackers, of course. Wireless connectivity isn't just over the horizon, it's here, and the speed is increasing every year. Using a volt-ohm-meter remains an important skill - but so does orienting an antenna for maximum gain. Sure, you'll still find pockets of concentrated computing capacity, but nowadays, with a gHz laptop in almost every house, the mean mHz of computing power per square acre of urban landscape has taken a big step upwards. I'd like to propose disbanding BayLISA, and creating BayISSA - 'ISSA' as referring to 'Information Systems & Services Administrators', which comprises network administrators, network services administrators, and server administrators, without drawing any boundaries which exclude. Regards, -- richard -- Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services 945 Taraval Street, #105 San Francisco, CA 94116 USA [011.]1.415.759.5571 http://www.daemonized.com -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) mQGiBECGpfsRBACoPJJfIIrWAqjlW92TtYCtY//e7OW8alWylr/1ygtSQzjCCdvC Ysa0fCcx01UenlWV+5YY/zC7KPsX2rQUKAs20fqs9et74dmgMGOj0vMjTzWEs29G FyAsIRSpFioa8zzrjXEUVnU6OFaD9a9eaC+LSTCiKgXjbQySDKM5T1c+vwCg8W3Y RZ83LRIUULGMPlY6zS4fQwUEAIIiTHDdWpbE+HeREJwH+4eDpGVf76XtNlOMXrt9 tJ3ExL+9ezLulg1nCrOYodOB7TEZqzV40R7emDZSX0hI9QEBCv6nW5aDVpw/bf+q UEHwxrUvE2LBi35hoqR2QwqNlagOauSorWj8Qm/31luxJVeLVy1A1czp6B/mvG1T co03A/9a5kzEAebJ5TzWXQC2/4gu/osXQnrw9B9FFpYOtLc0MNQuAFt8VLn5yO5Q 8T58w+FQvFI5FqzI5URmjQeEyWWuyIechknk4RnwIO1UPVjgRTuNgf9/TvNNfqpa aVlbNp+AG21D6VqsFN2zJFFJeUqiYdXw6i+ESL3SZRymIhwYWrQ8UmljaGFyZCBB IENoaWxkZXJzICh3d3cuZGFlbW9uaXplZC5jb20pIDxmc2NrZWRAcGFjYmVsbC5u ZXQ+iF4EExECAB4FAkCGpfsCGwMGCwkIBwMCAxUCAwMWAgECHgECF4AACgkQjGqW TlNTP66KzQCgjf0SQbiK1rgu7hRsmLPSSaGF7X8AoL7Qw/E9kTZr0fntP0XXEnk/ q6nRuQINBECGpvkQCADFzFq+kYbk+KTIhcVBTjTWDbBnjGgmuGR3LGp9hOd6W9SJ i4GD5184ZnMbEgvDZcDEGDNgMcU+f1girwYI2v/o7QA7VQ5bpUbnfOBytzO+bvd7 uCOyJltg8AG5MFLxfhAMHofpNxGlFTEXdVp4M9xyBB+hdLHbJNJqkMGPf+iCUf1W Q86KncU2AK4Sf9I+WYBZwkjaIhi9dQzeEX1c0Um6LxXSBtkjZprIk1M13gVaIJ6E dDN6hrSMbXZL+7yURw38vHXCtRJAKEOyW178rI8MzJzvVNhobvC62uEWD9Idz8sH 5A06fqb2fKJYLQ1keGUpb/qpny7oTmAe0Hx9jOM7AAMGCACdTe1M4U++/7/OVGip 1gnWEtMhHeQQbS7KPh1w8/1kvs5Mml6uGYQI44lKTDP7OHJQ9hIT/+5tfKPHIPhU M/7Mqa8y81c/AK+WUOyY9+uZ0zUxFGMqeU9z5iqJFWSi9QR/f5q/khfmqi5RFVyQ nnVhxBMB8pY1vZHV1CoL7NLK4c/N8mpwCiZ57LTsP8pLfDMWF/OopmM2ulzlfWTr anAdxQohenq/zTgSySX/VGZYSYvyAoXTRuU4USAVGWcUQPnVooA1N7lZP3pawjNP QMSukx9jI1673BPsPXxyQZ1PmmPt9eHKI0G0hNJG+FCmSRLNT/R7hqTzTUmpgMWM yyWPiEkEGBECAAkFAkCGpvkCGwwACgkQjGqWTlNTP642KACeITHq0b42P3oMX7Nj F5U3EaqCgYoAn3HxUB7ELB6vMUugW4aSmZpBJOR6 =ZaJO -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From jorjohns at cs.indiana.edu Thu Jun 17 12:35:51 2004 From: jorjohns at cs.indiana.edu (Jordan Johnson) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 12:35:51 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1087480661@216-127-207-67.strgbay.dcwis.com> Message-ID: <8A69CCA1-C095-11D8-B892-000A9566DF3E@cs.indiana.edu> On Thursday, June 17, 2004, at 11:57 AM, Jim Hickstein wrote: >> For what it's worth, last time I came to a meeting my job was as a >> developer. I just kept it on the down-low and hemmed and hawed if >> someone >> asked me -- "Don't ask, don't tell." > > Next time, stand up and shout it! :-) There are issues in common, and > we should address them. Then I guess it's worth mentioning (though I've been reluctant to pipe up thus far) that I've been following BayLISA's list and attending some meetings as a HS teacher with an interest in working on my school's infrastructure. So for the record, the name is *not* intimidating, and does *not* suggest exclusionary practices to innocent bystanders. Carry on. :> Cheers, jmj -- Jordan Johnson (Email manipulator #22483617) From greg.edwards at lmco.com Thu Jun 17 09:39:10 2004 From: greg.edwards at lmco.com (Edwards, Greg) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 09:39:10 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA Message-ID: <982A2933712F3740921D842654ED470D06D2E365@emss01m12.us.lmco.com> There is a problem with BayISSA. Suggest another set of letter. See www.issa.org or www.sv-issa.org (and you all are all welcome to the Silicon Valley ISSA meetings). Thank you Greg Edwards CISSP, GCIH -----Original Message----- From: owner-baylisa at baylisa.org [mailto:owner-baylisa at baylisa.org]On Behalf Of richard childers / kg6hac Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 7:36 AM To: baylisa Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA Another thing to think about is the exclusivity implies by the acronum 'LISA'. Who defines what's 'Large'? The arrays of 500 MB hard drives I managed in 1986 - each one over a hundred pounds in weight, and requiring two strong men to lift, and a third to align with sliding rack supports - why, their data could fit into a laptop now. The same laptop contains more computing power than an entire room full of servers, 'way back when. But no one would seriously suggest that managing a small stack of laptops is equivalent to managing a half a dozen server rooms. No, although the complexity within the server is an important metric of the capacity of the administrator, it is the potential interconnections with other islands of complexity which elicit another level of complexity; and it is that complexity which we administer. Not the servers, but their relationships, across networks. (I could fill fifteen minutes, easily, with a small talk on objectively measuring the entropy of a given network, using procedures which generate numbers which will garner respect in the board room; but I digress.) And yet, within the acronym LISA, I see no room for network administrators, or network service administrators ... or database administrators, for that matter. Obviously these groups have their own SIGs; and yet, administration of servers and their services is closely linked to authentication mechanisms, which are increasingly distributed and must be seen in their proper context - which is that they are simply another service, and that database administrators are, fundamentally, providers of a service that is server-based nd network-delivered, and for that reason, they can best be regarded as network service administrators, like the rest of us. (Indeed, the market itself is saying as much. How many ads do you see for someone to administer their Linux servers, Windows clients, Mac clients, database, do a little SQL, administer their firewall, maintain their router, and maybe tap-dance, too? The boundaries that exist in the IT marketplace are largely a result of organizational, and consequently, budgetary, boundaries, which the current economic slump has erased - they do not reflect the actual problems [which span from the desktops, across the networks, to the servers] or the capacities of the individuals whose job it is to troubleshoot them.) The acronym 'LISA' is dated for another reason; it alludes to a period when big iron was predominant. This is no longer the case. Distributed computing is increasingly a player in scientific communities - and by that term I include hackers, of course. Wireless connectivity isn't just over the horizon, it's here, and the speed is increasing every year. Using a volt-ohm-meter remains an important skill - but so does orienting an antenna for maximum gain. Sure, you'll still find pockets of concentrated computing capacity, but nowadays, with a gHz laptop in almost every house, the mean mHz of computing power per square acre of urban landscape has taken a big step upwards. I'd like to propose disbanding BayLISA, and creating BayISSA - 'ISSA' as referring to 'Information Systems & Services Administrators', which comprises network administrators, network services administrators, and server administrators, without drawing any boundaries which exclude. Regards, -- richard -- Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services 945 Taraval Street, #105 San Francisco, CA 94116 USA [011.]1.415.759.5571 http://www.daemonized.com -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) mQGiBECGpfsRBACoPJJfIIrWAqjlW92TtYCtY//e7OW8alWylr/1ygtSQzjCCdvC Ysa0fCcx01UenlWV+5YY/zC7KPsX2rQUKAs20fqs9et74dmgMGOj0vMjTzWEs29G FyAsIRSpFioa8zzrjXEUVnU6OFaD9a9eaC+LSTCiKgXjbQySDKM5T1c+vwCg8W3Y RZ83LRIUULGMPlY6zS4fQwUEAIIiTHDdWpbE+HeREJwH+4eDpGVf76XtNlOMXrt9 tJ3ExL+9ezLulg1nCrOYodOB7TEZqzV40R7emDZSX0hI9QEBCv6nW5aDVpw/bf+q UEHwxrUvE2LBi35hoqR2QwqNlagOauSorWj8Qm/31luxJVeLVy1A1czp6B/mvG1T co03A/9a5kzEAebJ5TzWXQC2/4gu/osXQnrw9B9FFpYOtLc0MNQuAFt8VLn5yO5Q 8T58w+FQvFI5FqzI5URmjQeEyWWuyIechknk4RnwIO1UPVjgRTuNgf9/TvNNfqpa aVlbNp+AG21D6VqsFN2zJFFJeUqiYdXw6i+ESL3SZRymIhwYWrQ8UmljaGFyZCBB IENoaWxkZXJzICh3d3cuZGFlbW9uaXplZC5jb20pIDxmc2NrZWRAcGFjYmVsbC5u ZXQ+iF4EExECAB4FAkCGpfsCGwMGCwkIBwMCAxUCAwMWAgECHgECF4AACgkQjGqW TlNTP66KzQCgjf0SQbiK1rgu7hRsmLPSSaGF7X8AoL7Qw/E9kTZr0fntP0XXEnk/ q6nRuQINBECGpvkQCADFzFq+kYbk+KTIhcVBTjTWDbBnjGgmuGR3LGp9hOd6W9SJ i4GD5184ZnMbEgvDZcDEGDNgMcU+f1girwYI2v/o7QA7VQ5bpUbnfOBytzO+bvd7 uCOyJltg8AG5MFLxfhAMHofpNxGlFTEXdVp4M9xyBB+hdLHbJNJqkMGPf+iCUf1W Q86KncU2AK4Sf9I+WYBZwkjaIhi9dQzeEX1c0Um6LxXSBtkjZprIk1M13gVaIJ6E dDN6hrSMbXZL+7yURw38vHXCtRJAKEOyW178rI8MzJzvVNhobvC62uEWD9Idz8sH 5A06fqb2fKJYLQ1keGUpb/qpny7oTmAe0Hx9jOM7AAMGCACdTe1M4U++/7/OVGip 1gnWEtMhHeQQbS7KPh1w8/1kvs5Mml6uGYQI44lKTDP7OHJQ9hIT/+5tfKPHIPhU M/7Mqa8y81c/AK+WUOyY9+uZ0zUxFGMqeU9z5iqJFWSi9QR/f5q/khfmqi5RFVyQ nnVhxBMB8pY1vZHV1CoL7NLK4c/N8mpwCiZ57LTsP8pLfDMWF/OopmM2ulzlfWTr anAdxQohenq/zTgSySX/VGZYSYvyAoXTRuU4USAVGWcUQPnVooA1N7lZP3pawjNP QMSukx9jI1673BPsPXxyQZ1PmmPt9eHKI0G0hNJG+FCmSRLNT/R7hqTzTUmpgMWM yyWPiEkEGBECAAkFAkCGpvkCGwwACgkQjGqWTlNTP642KACeITHq0b42P3oMX7Nj F5U3EaqCgYoAn3HxUB7ELB6vMUugW4aSmZpBJOR6 =ZaJO -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From greg.edwards at lmco.com Thu Jun 17 09:39:10 2004 From: greg.edwards at lmco.com (Edwards, Greg) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 09:39:10 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA Message-ID: <982A2933712F3740921D842654ED470D06D2E365@emss01m12.us.lmco.com> There is a problem with BayISSA. Suggest another set of letter. See www.issa.org or www.sv-issa.org (and you all are all welcome to the Silicon Valley ISSA meetings). Thank you Greg Edwards CISSP, GCIH -----Original Message----- From: owner-baylisa at baylisa.org [mailto:owner-baylisa at baylisa.org]On Behalf Of richard childers / kg6hac Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 7:36 AM To: baylisa Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA Another thing to think about is the exclusivity implies by the acronum 'LISA'. Who defines what's 'Large'? The arrays of 500 MB hard drives I managed in 1986 - each one over a hundred pounds in weight, and requiring two strong men to lift, and a third to align with sliding rack supports - why, their data could fit into a laptop now. The same laptop contains more computing power than an entire room full of servers, 'way back when. But no one would seriously suggest that managing a small stack of laptops is equivalent to managing a half a dozen server rooms. No, although the complexity within the server is an important metric of the capacity of the administrator, it is the potential interconnections with other islands of complexity which elicit another level of complexity; and it is that complexity which we administer. Not the servers, but their relationships, across networks. (I could fill fifteen minutes, easily, with a small talk on objectively measuring the entropy of a given network, using procedures which generate numbers which will garner respect in the board room; but I digress.) And yet, within the acronym LISA, I see no room for network administrators, or network service administrators ... or database administrators, for that matter. Obviously these groups have their own SIGs; and yet, administration of servers and their services is closely linked to authentication mechanisms, which are increasingly distributed and must be seen in their proper context - which is that they are simply another service, and that database administrators are, fundamentally, providers of a service that is server-based nd network-delivered, and for that reason, they can best be regarded as network service administrators, like the rest of us. (Indeed, the market itself is saying as much. How many ads do you see for someone to administer their Linux servers, Windows clients, Mac clients, database, do a little SQL, administer their firewall, maintain their router, and maybe tap-dance, too? The boundaries that exist in the IT marketplace are largely a result of organizational, and consequently, budgetary, boundaries, which the current economic slump has erased - they do not reflect the actual problems [which span from the desktops, across the networks, to the servers] or the capacities of the individuals whose job it is to troubleshoot them.) The acronym 'LISA' is dated for another reason; it alludes to a period when big iron was predominant. This is no longer the case. Distributed computing is increasingly a player in scientific communities - and by that term I include hackers, of course. Wireless connectivity isn't just over the horizon, it's here, and the speed is increasing every year. Using a volt-ohm-meter remains an important skill - but so does orienting an antenna for maximum gain. Sure, you'll still find pockets of concentrated computing capacity, but nowadays, with a gHz laptop in almost every house, the mean mHz of computing power per square acre of urban landscape has taken a big step upwards. I'd like to propose disbanding BayLISA, and creating BayISSA - 'ISSA' as referring to 'Information Systems & Services Administrators', which comprises network administrators, network services administrators, and server administrators, without drawing any boundaries which exclude. Regards, -- richard -- Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services 945 Taraval Street, #105 San Francisco, CA 94116 USA [011.]1.415.759.5571 http://www.daemonized.com -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) mQGiBECGpfsRBACoPJJfIIrWAqjlW92TtYCtY//e7OW8alWylr/1ygtSQzjCCdvC Ysa0fCcx01UenlWV+5YY/zC7KPsX2rQUKAs20fqs9et74dmgMGOj0vMjTzWEs29G FyAsIRSpFioa8zzrjXEUVnU6OFaD9a9eaC+LSTCiKgXjbQySDKM5T1c+vwCg8W3Y RZ83LRIUULGMPlY6zS4fQwUEAIIiTHDdWpbE+HeREJwH+4eDpGVf76XtNlOMXrt9 tJ3ExL+9ezLulg1nCrOYodOB7TEZqzV40R7emDZSX0hI9QEBCv6nW5aDVpw/bf+q UEHwxrUvE2LBi35hoqR2QwqNlagOauSorWj8Qm/31luxJVeLVy1A1czp6B/mvG1T co03A/9a5kzEAebJ5TzWXQC2/4gu/osXQnrw9B9FFpYOtLc0MNQuAFt8VLn5yO5Q 8T58w+FQvFI5FqzI5URmjQeEyWWuyIechknk4RnwIO1UPVjgRTuNgf9/TvNNfqpa aVlbNp+AG21D6VqsFN2zJFFJeUqiYdXw6i+ESL3SZRymIhwYWrQ8UmljaGFyZCBB IENoaWxkZXJzICh3d3cuZGFlbW9uaXplZC5jb20pIDxmc2NrZWRAcGFjYmVsbC5u ZXQ+iF4EExECAB4FAkCGpfsCGwMGCwkIBwMCAxUCAwMWAgECHgECF4AACgkQjGqW TlNTP66KzQCgjf0SQbiK1rgu7hRsmLPSSaGF7X8AoL7Qw/E9kTZr0fntP0XXEnk/ q6nRuQINBECGpvkQCADFzFq+kYbk+KTIhcVBTjTWDbBnjGgmuGR3LGp9hOd6W9SJ i4GD5184ZnMbEgvDZcDEGDNgMcU+f1girwYI2v/o7QA7VQ5bpUbnfOBytzO+bvd7 uCOyJltg8AG5MFLxfhAMHofpNxGlFTEXdVp4M9xyBB+hdLHbJNJqkMGPf+iCUf1W Q86KncU2AK4Sf9I+WYBZwkjaIhi9dQzeEX1c0Um6LxXSBtkjZprIk1M13gVaIJ6E dDN6hrSMbXZL+7yURw38vHXCtRJAKEOyW178rI8MzJzvVNhobvC62uEWD9Idz8sH 5A06fqb2fKJYLQ1keGUpb/qpny7oTmAe0Hx9jOM7AAMGCACdTe1M4U++/7/OVGip 1gnWEtMhHeQQbS7KPh1w8/1kvs5Mml6uGYQI44lKTDP7OHJQ9hIT/+5tfKPHIPhU M/7Mqa8y81c/AK+WUOyY9+uZ0zUxFGMqeU9z5iqJFWSi9QR/f5q/khfmqi5RFVyQ nnVhxBMB8pY1vZHV1CoL7NLK4c/N8mpwCiZ57LTsP8pLfDMWF/OopmM2ulzlfWTr anAdxQohenq/zTgSySX/VGZYSYvyAoXTRuU4USAVGWcUQPnVooA1N7lZP3pawjNP QMSukx9jI1673BPsPXxyQZ1PmmPt9eHKI0G0hNJG+FCmSRLNT/R7hqTzTUmpgMWM yyWPiEkEGBECAAkFAkCGpvkCGwwACgkQjGqWTlNTP642KACeITHq0b42P3oMX7Nj F5U3EaqCgYoAn3HxUB7ELB6vMUugW4aSmZpBJOR6 =ZaJO -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From chuck+baylisa at snew.com Thu Jun 17 12:54:34 2004 From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 15:54:34 -0400 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> <20040615203221.GB5397@starshine.org> <40D09D2F.1070602@virtual.net> <2147483647.1087397560@216-127-207-61.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1AC3F.8050405@pacbell.net> <2147483647.1087473108@216-127-207-67.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1D23B.6080200@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20040617195434.GA24807@2004.snew.com> Quoting Elizabeth Zwicky (zwicky at greatcircle.com): > > My experience with volunteer organizations suggests this is pointless, > but I feel morally obliged to do it anyway: > > ALL TIME SPENT ARGUING ABOUT THE NAME IS WASTED. Sure, but what do *you* know about any of this anyway. ;) > All names for organizations suck. Unless you have one that > is horrifically worse than usual (your organization is called > "Stupid Annoying People of America", for instance) the only > effective thing to do about it is to accept it and move on. I will suggest that those who are really determine should call it "group 6". In fact, when you see the letters B.A.Y.L.I.S.A you will think "group 6" and be done with it. No, MY main issue that keeps we away from meetings is that as someone who lives pretty near the Bay ("group" to you others), getting from OaklandBerkeley to Apple is hell. Well, heck at least. I briefly contemplated a job at Apple and having neither catapult, chopper nor pneumatic tube, considered the Rt24 -> Cuperitino motorcycle ride. Perhaps Steve Jobs would lend us E. Bayers his chopper for 'air pooling'. From alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com Thu Jun 17 13:10:39 2004 From: alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com (Alvin Oga) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 13:10:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA - same people In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Alan Horn wrote: > On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Roy S. Rapoport wrote: > > >> There is a problem with BayISSA. Suggest another set of letter. See > >> www.issa.org or www.sv-issa.org > > > > Not to point out the obvious, but how about, simply, Bay Area IT Personnel? > > baitp.[com|org] are both available. changing the name will not help "change the attendee or membership or board" it's the same people, same infrastructure, same topics, etc, and a good "turn around manager" would be able to help :-) and if the new name is used, for a while, the workload will be about 4x what it currently is c ya alvin From greg.edwards at lmco.com Thu Jun 17 09:39:10 2004 From: greg.edwards at lmco.com (Edwards, Greg) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 09:39:10 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA Message-ID: <982A2933712F3740921D842654ED470D06D2E365@emss01m12.us.lmco.com> There is a problem with BayISSA. Suggest another set of letter. See www.issa.org or www.sv-issa.org (and you all are all welcome to the Silicon Valley ISSA meetings). Thank you Greg Edwards CISSP, GCIH -----Original Message----- From: owner-baylisa at baylisa.org [mailto:owner-baylisa at baylisa.org]On Behalf Of richard childers / kg6hac Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 7:36 AM To: baylisa Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA Another thing to think about is the exclusivity implies by the acronum 'LISA'. Who defines what's 'Large'? The arrays of 500 MB hard drives I managed in 1986 - each one over a hundred pounds in weight, and requiring two strong men to lift, and a third to align with sliding rack supports - why, their data could fit into a laptop now. The same laptop contains more computing power than an entire room full of servers, 'way back when. But no one would seriously suggest that managing a small stack of laptops is equivalent to managing a half a dozen server rooms. No, although the complexity within the server is an important metric of the capacity of the administrator, it is the potential interconnections with other islands of complexity which elicit another level of complexity; and it is that complexity which we administer. Not the servers, but their relationships, across networks. (I could fill fifteen minutes, easily, with a small talk on objectively measuring the entropy of a given network, using procedures which generate numbers which will garner respect in the board room; but I digress.) And yet, within the acronym LISA, I see no room for network administrators, or network service administrators ... or database administrators, for that matter. Obviously these groups have their own SIGs; and yet, administration of servers and their services is closely linked to authentication mechanisms, which are increasingly distributed and must be seen in their proper context - which is that they are simply another service, and that database administrators are, fundamentally, providers of a service that is server-based nd network-delivered, and for that reason, they can best be regarded as network service administrators, like the rest of us. (Indeed, the market itself is saying as much. How many ads do you see for someone to administer their Linux servers, Windows clients, Mac clients, database, do a little SQL, administer their firewall, maintain their router, and maybe tap-dance, too? The boundaries that exist in the IT marketplace are largely a result of organizational, and consequently, budgetary, boundaries, which the current economic slump has erased - they do not reflect the actual problems [which span from the desktops, across the networks, to the servers] or the capacities of the individuals whose job it is to troubleshoot them.) The acronym 'LISA' is dated for another reason; it alludes to a period when big iron was predominant. This is no longer the case. Distributed computing is increasingly a player in scientific communities - and by that term I include hackers, of course. Wireless connectivity isn't just over the horizon, it's here, and the speed is increasing every year. Using a volt-ohm-meter remains an important skill - but so does orienting an antenna for maximum gain. Sure, you'll still find pockets of concentrated computing capacity, but nowadays, with a gHz laptop in almost every house, the mean mHz of computing power per square acre of urban landscape has taken a big step upwards. I'd like to propose disbanding BayLISA, and creating BayISSA - 'ISSA' as referring to 'Information Systems & Services Administrators', which comprises network administrators, network services administrators, and server administrators, without drawing any boundaries which exclude. Regards, -- richard -- Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services 945 Taraval Street, #105 San Francisco, CA 94116 USA [011.]1.415.759.5571 http://www.daemonized.com -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) mQGiBECGpfsRBACoPJJfIIrWAqjlW92TtYCtY//e7OW8alWylr/1ygtSQzjCCdvC Ysa0fCcx01UenlWV+5YY/zC7KPsX2rQUKAs20fqs9et74dmgMGOj0vMjTzWEs29G FyAsIRSpFioa8zzrjXEUVnU6OFaD9a9eaC+LSTCiKgXjbQySDKM5T1c+vwCg8W3Y RZ83LRIUULGMPlY6zS4fQwUEAIIiTHDdWpbE+HeREJwH+4eDpGVf76XtNlOMXrt9 tJ3ExL+9ezLulg1nCrOYodOB7TEZqzV40R7emDZSX0hI9QEBCv6nW5aDVpw/bf+q UEHwxrUvE2LBi35hoqR2QwqNlagOauSorWj8Qm/31luxJVeLVy1A1czp6B/mvG1T co03A/9a5kzEAebJ5TzWXQC2/4gu/osXQnrw9B9FFpYOtLc0MNQuAFt8VLn5yO5Q 8T58w+FQvFI5FqzI5URmjQeEyWWuyIechknk4RnwIO1UPVjgRTuNgf9/TvNNfqpa aVlbNp+AG21D6VqsFN2zJFFJeUqiYdXw6i+ESL3SZRymIhwYWrQ8UmljaGFyZCBB IENoaWxkZXJzICh3d3cuZGFlbW9uaXplZC5jb20pIDxmc2NrZWRAcGFjYmVsbC5u ZXQ+iF4EExECAB4FAkCGpfsCGwMGCwkIBwMCAxUCAwMWAgECHgECF4AACgkQjGqW TlNTP66KzQCgjf0SQbiK1rgu7hRsmLPSSaGF7X8AoL7Qw/E9kTZr0fntP0XXEnk/ q6nRuQINBECGpvkQCADFzFq+kYbk+KTIhcVBTjTWDbBnjGgmuGR3LGp9hOd6W9SJ i4GD5184ZnMbEgvDZcDEGDNgMcU+f1girwYI2v/o7QA7VQ5bpUbnfOBytzO+bvd7 uCOyJltg8AG5MFLxfhAMHofpNxGlFTEXdVp4M9xyBB+hdLHbJNJqkMGPf+iCUf1W Q86KncU2AK4Sf9I+WYBZwkjaIhi9dQzeEX1c0Um6LxXSBtkjZprIk1M13gVaIJ6E dDN6hrSMbXZL+7yURw38vHXCtRJAKEOyW178rI8MzJzvVNhobvC62uEWD9Idz8sH 5A06fqb2fKJYLQ1keGUpb/qpny7oTmAe0Hx9jOM7AAMGCACdTe1M4U++/7/OVGip 1gnWEtMhHeQQbS7KPh1w8/1kvs5Mml6uGYQI44lKTDP7OHJQ9hIT/+5tfKPHIPhU M/7Mqa8y81c/AK+WUOyY9+uZ0zUxFGMqeU9z5iqJFWSi9QR/f5q/khfmqi5RFVyQ nnVhxBMB8pY1vZHV1CoL7NLK4c/N8mpwCiZ57LTsP8pLfDMWF/OopmM2ulzlfWTr anAdxQohenq/zTgSySX/VGZYSYvyAoXTRuU4USAVGWcUQPnVooA1N7lZP3pawjNP QMSukx9jI1673BPsPXxyQZ1PmmPt9eHKI0G0hNJG+FCmSRLNT/R7hqTzTUmpgMWM yyWPiEkEGBECAAkFAkCGpvkCGwwACgkQjGqWTlNTP642KACeITHq0b42P3oMX7Nj F5U3EaqCgYoAn3HxUB7ELB6vMUugW4aSmZpBJOR6 =ZaJO -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From rick at linuxmafia.com Thu Jun 17 13:12:27 2004 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 13:12:27 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <20040617190227.GN797@bitshift.org> References: <20040617182007.GG28708@puppy.inorganic.org> <20040617190227.GN797@bitshift.org> Message-ID: <20040617201227.GO12051@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Mark C. Langston (mark at bitshift.org): > BayLISA: Loosely-Interacting Systems Administrators. BayLISA: Let's Invent Some Acronym![1] (Sorry, couldn't resist.) Anyhow, we of the evil cthonic HTML-mail-suppressing elitist cabal thank you for your suggestions. [1] http://www.free-definition.com/Apple-Lisa.html -- Cheers, Accordions don't play Lady of Spain; Rick Moen _people_ play Lady of Spain. rick at linuxmafia.com From gwen at reptiles.org Thu Jun 17 13:17:35 2004 From: gwen at reptiles.org (Gwendolynn ferch Elydyr) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 16:17:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: AIX question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040617161340.W1223-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Jennifer Davis wrote: > The box is in Atlanta. The SE is claiming the serial console isn't giving > him an option to go to single user mode. From my understanding he should > see a menu whether he is on a serial console, or attached with monitor and > IBM keyboard. I have barely touched AIX, so I'm asking in the hope that > someone with many years of AIX experience can pipe up and say "Yes he > should be able to see this menu and press 5 to get to single user > boot from the serial console". Hrm. I have to admit that the first thing that comes to mind my is "can he get a serial console at all". IBM uses the -other- null modem standard from sun/cisco/everybody else. cheers! ========================================================================== "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now." From roth at feep.net Thu Jun 17 13:34:55 2004 From: roth at feep.net (Mark D. Roth) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 15:34:55 -0500 Subject: AIX question In-Reply-To: References: <20040617144352.Q17210-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> Message-ID: <20040617203455.GA21057@starbase.feep.net> On Thu Jun 17 11:57 2004 -0700, Jennifer Davis wrote: > The box is in Atlanta. The SE is claiming the serial console isn't giving > him an option to go to single user mode. From my understanding he should > see a menu whether he is on a serial console, or attached with monitor and > IBM keyboard. I have barely touched AIX, so I'm asking in the hope that > someone with many years of AIX experience can pipe up and say "Yes he > should be able to see this menu and press 5 to get to single user > boot from the serial console". That's the general approach with most modern AIX boxes (i.e., the ones without a physical key), but the exact details depend on what particular model you're dealing with. If you know the model of the machine, you may be able to find documentation for it here: http://publib16.boulder.ibm.com/pseries/en_US/infocenter/base/hardware.htm IIRC, the general approach to booting into single-user mode is to boot in "service mode" (also sometimes called "maintenance mode"), which will take you into the menu for a diagnostic tool. Somewhere on that menu (or mayeb buried in one of the sub-menus; I forget) is an option to drop into a single-user shell. Also, some machines, like the B80 and 6C1, have a special service processor that pops up a "meta-menu" that allows you to power the system on or off. The idea is that when you first plug in the system, the power light just blinks on and off, indicating that the machine is at standby. You can either hit the power button or use this menu to power the system on from standby mode. This meta-menu, unlike the normal firmware menu, requires one of the control pins on the serial line (DSR? DTR? I forget) to be high, or it won't display the menu. So, if you have one of these models and the power light is blinking, you might try just hitting the power button. As of about a month ago (when I changed jobs and moved to the bay area, which is why I'm now reading this mailing list), I no longer manage any AIX boxes, but prior to that I had been working with AIX for almost 10 years (including versions from 3.2.5 to 5.1). I don't have direct access to test anything for you, but I can at least provide some general pointers from memory. Anyway, I hope this is helpful. -- Mark D. Roth http://www.feep.net/~roth/ From greg.edwards at lmco.com Thu Jun 17 09:39:10 2004 From: greg.edwards at lmco.com (Edwards, Greg) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 09:39:10 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA Message-ID: <982A2933712F3740921D842654ED470D06D2E365@emss01m12.us.lmco.com> There is a problem with BayISSA. Suggest another set of letter. See www.issa.org or www.sv-issa.org (and you all are all welcome to the Silicon Valley ISSA meetings). Thank you Greg Edwards CISSP, GCIH -----Original Message----- From: owner-baylisa at baylisa.org [mailto:owner-baylisa at baylisa.org]On Behalf Of richard childers / kg6hac Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 7:36 AM To: baylisa Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA Another thing to think about is the exclusivity implies by the acronum 'LISA'. Who defines what's 'Large'? The arrays of 500 MB hard drives I managed in 1986 - each one over a hundred pounds in weight, and requiring two strong men to lift, and a third to align with sliding rack supports - why, their data could fit into a laptop now. The same laptop contains more computing power than an entire room full of servers, 'way back when. But no one would seriously suggest that managing a small stack of laptops is equivalent to managing a half a dozen server rooms. No, although the complexity within the server is an important metric of the capacity of the administrator, it is the potential interconnections with other islands of complexity which elicit another level of complexity; and it is that complexity which we administer. Not the servers, but their relationships, across networks. (I could fill fifteen minutes, easily, with a small talk on objectively measuring the entropy of a given network, using procedures which generate numbers which will garner respect in the board room; but I digress.) And yet, within the acronym LISA, I see no room for network administrators, or network service administrators ... or database administrators, for that matter. Obviously these groups have their own SIGs; and yet, administration of servers and their services is closely linked to authentication mechanisms, which are increasingly distributed and must be seen in their proper context - which is that they are simply another service, and that database administrators are, fundamentally, providers of a service that is server-based nd network-delivered, and for that reason, they can best be regarded as network service administrators, like the rest of us. (Indeed, the market itself is saying as much. How many ads do you see for someone to administer their Linux servers, Windows clients, Mac clients, database, do a little SQL, administer their firewall, maintain their router, and maybe tap-dance, too? The boundaries that exist in the IT marketplace are largely a result of organizational, and consequently, budgetary, boundaries, which the current economic slump has erased - they do not reflect the actual problems [which span from the desktops, across the networks, to the servers] or the capacities of the individuals whose job it is to troubleshoot them.) The acronym 'LISA' is dated for another reason; it alludes to a period when big iron was predominant. This is no longer the case. Distributed computing is increasingly a player in scientific communities - and by that term I include hackers, of course. Wireless connectivity isn't just over the horizon, it's here, and the speed is increasing every year. Using a volt-ohm-meter remains an important skill - but so does orienting an antenna for maximum gain. Sure, you'll still find pockets of concentrated computing capacity, but nowadays, with a gHz laptop in almost every house, the mean mHz of computing power per square acre of urban landscape has taken a big step upwards. I'd like to propose disbanding BayLISA, and creating BayISSA - 'ISSA' as referring to 'Information Systems & Services Administrators', which comprises network administrators, network services administrators, and server administrators, without drawing any boundaries which exclude. Regards, -- richard -- Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services 945 Taraval Street, #105 San Francisco, CA 94116 USA [011.]1.415.759.5571 http://www.daemonized.com -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) mQGiBECGpfsRBACoPJJfIIrWAqjlW92TtYCtY//e7OW8alWylr/1ygtSQzjCCdvC Ysa0fCcx01UenlWV+5YY/zC7KPsX2rQUKAs20fqs9et74dmgMGOj0vMjTzWEs29G FyAsIRSpFioa8zzrjXEUVnU6OFaD9a9eaC+LSTCiKgXjbQySDKM5T1c+vwCg8W3Y RZ83LRIUULGMPlY6zS4fQwUEAIIiTHDdWpbE+HeREJwH+4eDpGVf76XtNlOMXrt9 tJ3ExL+9ezLulg1nCrOYodOB7TEZqzV40R7emDZSX0hI9QEBCv6nW5aDVpw/bf+q UEHwxrUvE2LBi35hoqR2QwqNlagOauSorWj8Qm/31luxJVeLVy1A1czp6B/mvG1T co03A/9a5kzEAebJ5TzWXQC2/4gu/osXQnrw9B9FFpYOtLc0MNQuAFt8VLn5yO5Q 8T58w+FQvFI5FqzI5URmjQeEyWWuyIechknk4RnwIO1UPVjgRTuNgf9/TvNNfqpa aVlbNp+AG21D6VqsFN2zJFFJeUqiYdXw6i+ESL3SZRymIhwYWrQ8UmljaGFyZCBB IENoaWxkZXJzICh3d3cuZGFlbW9uaXplZC5jb20pIDxmc2NrZWRAcGFjYmVsbC5u ZXQ+iF4EExECAB4FAkCGpfsCGwMGCwkIBwMCAxUCAwMWAgECHgECF4AACgkQjGqW TlNTP66KzQCgjf0SQbiK1rgu7hRsmLPSSaGF7X8AoL7Qw/E9kTZr0fntP0XXEnk/ q6nRuQINBECGpvkQCADFzFq+kYbk+KTIhcVBTjTWDbBnjGgmuGR3LGp9hOd6W9SJ i4GD5184ZnMbEgvDZcDEGDNgMcU+f1girwYI2v/o7QA7VQ5bpUbnfOBytzO+bvd7 uCOyJltg8AG5MFLxfhAMHofpNxGlFTEXdVp4M9xyBB+hdLHbJNJqkMGPf+iCUf1W Q86KncU2AK4Sf9I+WYBZwkjaIhi9dQzeEX1c0Um6LxXSBtkjZprIk1M13gVaIJ6E dDN6hrSMbXZL+7yURw38vHXCtRJAKEOyW178rI8MzJzvVNhobvC62uEWD9Idz8sH 5A06fqb2fKJYLQ1keGUpb/qpny7oTmAe0Hx9jOM7AAMGCACdTe1M4U++/7/OVGip 1gnWEtMhHeQQbS7KPh1w8/1kvs5Mml6uGYQI44lKTDP7OHJQ9hIT/+5tfKPHIPhU M/7Mqa8y81c/AK+WUOyY9+uZ0zUxFGMqeU9z5iqJFWSi9QR/f5q/khfmqi5RFVyQ nnVhxBMB8pY1vZHV1CoL7NLK4c/N8mpwCiZ57LTsP8pLfDMWF/OopmM2ulzlfWTr anAdxQohenq/zTgSySX/VGZYSYvyAoXTRuU4USAVGWcUQPnVooA1N7lZP3pawjNP QMSukx9jI1673BPsPXxyQZ1PmmPt9eHKI0G0hNJG+FCmSRLNT/R7hqTzTUmpgMWM yyWPiEkEGBECAAkFAkCGpvkCGwwACgkQjGqWTlNTP642KACeITHq0b42P3oMX7Nj F5U3EaqCgYoAn3HxUB7ELB6vMUugW4aSmZpBJOR6 =ZaJO -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From greg.edwards at lmco.com Thu Jun 17 09:39:10 2004 From: greg.edwards at lmco.com (Edwards, Greg) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 09:39:10 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA Message-ID: <982A2933712F3740921D842654ED470D06D2E365@emss01m12.us.lmco.com> There is a problem with BayISSA. Suggest another set of letter. See www.issa.org or www.sv-issa.org (and you all are all welcome to the Silicon Valley ISSA meetings). Thank you Greg Edwards CISSP, GCIH -----Original Message----- From: owner-baylisa at baylisa.org [mailto:owner-baylisa at baylisa.org]On Behalf Of richard childers / kg6hac Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 7:36 AM To: baylisa Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA Another thing to think about is the exclusivity implies by the acronum 'LISA'. Who defines what's 'Large'? The arrays of 500 MB hard drives I managed in 1986 - each one over a hundred pounds in weight, and requiring two strong men to lift, and a third to align with sliding rack supports - why, their data could fit into a laptop now. The same laptop contains more computing power than an entire room full of servers, 'way back when. But no one would seriously suggest that managing a small stack of laptops is equivalent to managing a half a dozen server rooms. No, although the complexity within the server is an important metric of the capacity of the administrator, it is the potential interconnections with other islands of complexity which elicit another level of complexity; and it is that complexity which we administer. Not the servers, but their relationships, across networks. (I could fill fifteen minutes, easily, with a small talk on objectively measuring the entropy of a given network, using procedures which generate numbers which will garner respect in the board room; but I digress.) And yet, within the acronym LISA, I see no room for network administrators, or network service administrators ... or database administrators, for that matter. Obviously these groups have their own SIGs; and yet, administration of servers and their services is closely linked to authentication mechanisms, which are increasingly distributed and must be seen in their proper context - which is that they are simply another service, and that database administrators are, fundamentally, providers of a service that is server-based nd network-delivered, and for that reason, they can best be regarded as network service administrators, like the rest of us. (Indeed, the market itself is saying as much. How many ads do you see for someone to administer their Linux servers, Windows clients, Mac clients, database, do a little SQL, administer their firewall, maintain their router, and maybe tap-dance, too? The boundaries that exist in the IT marketplace are largely a result of organizational, and consequently, budgetary, boundaries, which the current economic slump has erased - they do not reflect the actual problems [which span from the desktops, across the networks, to the servers] or the capacities of the individuals whose job it is to troubleshoot them.) The acronym 'LISA' is dated for another reason; it alludes to a period when big iron was predominant. This is no longer the case. Distributed computing is increasingly a player in scientific communities - and by that term I include hackers, of course. Wireless connectivity isn't just over the horizon, it's here, and the speed is increasing every year. Using a volt-ohm-meter remains an important skill - but so does orienting an antenna for maximum gain. Sure, you'll still find pockets of concentrated computing capacity, but nowadays, with a gHz laptop in almost every house, the mean mHz of computing power per square acre of urban landscape has taken a big step upwards. I'd like to propose disbanding BayLISA, and creating BayISSA - 'ISSA' as referring to 'Information Systems & Services Administrators', which comprises network administrators, network services administrators, and server administrators, without drawing any boundaries which exclude. Regards, -- richard -- Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services 945 Taraval Street, #105 San Francisco, CA 94116 USA [011.]1.415.759.5571 http://www.daemonized.com -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) mQGiBECGpfsRBACoPJJfIIrWAqjlW92TtYCtY//e7OW8alWylr/1ygtSQzjCCdvC Ysa0fCcx01UenlWV+5YY/zC7KPsX2rQUKAs20fqs9et74dmgMGOj0vMjTzWEs29G FyAsIRSpFioa8zzrjXEUVnU6OFaD9a9eaC+LSTCiKgXjbQySDKM5T1c+vwCg8W3Y RZ83LRIUULGMPlY6zS4fQwUEAIIiTHDdWpbE+HeREJwH+4eDpGVf76XtNlOMXrt9 tJ3ExL+9ezLulg1nCrOYodOB7TEZqzV40R7emDZSX0hI9QEBCv6nW5aDVpw/bf+q UEHwxrUvE2LBi35hoqR2QwqNlagOauSorWj8Qm/31luxJVeLVy1A1czp6B/mvG1T co03A/9a5kzEAebJ5TzWXQC2/4gu/osXQnrw9B9FFpYOtLc0MNQuAFt8VLn5yO5Q 8T58w+FQvFI5FqzI5URmjQeEyWWuyIechknk4RnwIO1UPVjgRTuNgf9/TvNNfqpa aVlbNp+AG21D6VqsFN2zJFFJeUqiYdXw6i+ESL3SZRymIhwYWrQ8UmljaGFyZCBB IENoaWxkZXJzICh3d3cuZGFlbW9uaXplZC5jb20pIDxmc2NrZWRAcGFjYmVsbC5u ZXQ+iF4EExECAB4FAkCGpfsCGwMGCwkIBwMCAxUCAwMWAgECHgECF4AACgkQjGqW TlNTP66KzQCgjf0SQbiK1rgu7hRsmLPSSaGF7X8AoL7Qw/E9kTZr0fntP0XXEnk/ q6nRuQINBECGpvkQCADFzFq+kYbk+KTIhcVBTjTWDbBnjGgmuGR3LGp9hOd6W9SJ i4GD5184ZnMbEgvDZcDEGDNgMcU+f1girwYI2v/o7QA7VQ5bpUbnfOBytzO+bvd7 uCOyJltg8AG5MFLxfhAMHofpNxGlFTEXdVp4M9xyBB+hdLHbJNJqkMGPf+iCUf1W Q86KncU2AK4Sf9I+WYBZwkjaIhi9dQzeEX1c0Um6LxXSBtkjZprIk1M13gVaIJ6E dDN6hrSMbXZL+7yURw38vHXCtRJAKEOyW178rI8MzJzvVNhobvC62uEWD9Idz8sH 5A06fqb2fKJYLQ1keGUpb/qpny7oTmAe0Hx9jOM7AAMGCACdTe1M4U++/7/OVGip 1gnWEtMhHeQQbS7KPh1w8/1kvs5Mml6uGYQI44lKTDP7OHJQ9hIT/+5tfKPHIPhU M/7Mqa8y81c/AK+WUOyY9+uZ0zUxFGMqeU9z5iqJFWSi9QR/f5q/khfmqi5RFVyQ nnVhxBMB8pY1vZHV1CoL7NLK4c/N8mpwCiZ57LTsP8pLfDMWF/OopmM2ulzlfWTr anAdxQohenq/zTgSySX/VGZYSYvyAoXTRuU4USAVGWcUQPnVooA1N7lZP3pawjNP QMSukx9jI1673BPsPXxyQZ1PmmPt9eHKI0G0hNJG+FCmSRLNT/R7hqTzTUmpgMWM yyWPiEkEGBECAAkFAkCGpvkCGwwACgkQjGqWTlNTP642KACeITHq0b42P3oMX7Nj F5U3EaqCgYoAn3HxUB7ELB6vMUugW4aSmZpBJOR6 =ZaJO -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From michael at halligan.org Thu Jun 17 13:57:38 2004 From: michael at halligan.org (Michael T. Halligan) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 13:57:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BayLisa the real problem. In-Reply-To: <982A2933712F3740921D842654ED470D06D2E365@emss01m12.us.lmco.com> Message-ID: The real problem is this : We are systems administrators in the bay area. Being in the south bay means laziness by nature. Lack of public transportation, excess of strip malls and suburbs. That's the lifestyle, "do we do something interesting with our life, or do we watch television and order out?" Being in San Francisco means snobbyness about the south bay, and an inherent laziness if it means having to go further south than geneva st, let alone further south than palo alto. I'm by far guilty of this. I've turned down $20k-$30k in side consulting gigs in the past 2 years just because I had no interest in driving to San Jose.. Now, the important part of this, is we're all systems administrators. It's our jobs to create ways to be lazy. Scripts are good. Activity in groups is great, if it doesn't require non-automatable effort. What can we automate in the BayLISA group? Can we rotate the locations of the meetings, to get greater coverage? Would split-meetings work (having video conferencing between two or three sites). Can we write snmp-agents to collect the value experience (commradery, anecdote sharing, information discovery, networking, shared food) and input it back into ourselves? A name change is a silly idea.. It's like how Lucent though they were going to take over the world by putting up a sign in bethlehem, pennsylvania saying "Look out Silicon Valley, Here comes the Lehigh Valley" during the boom, and changing their logo to the "flaming asshole" (or the coffe stain, depending on what group you worked in). As soon as the name change idea came up, the first thing that popped into my mind was a sound clip I used to play whenever a moron manager of mine at a company I refuse to admit I worked for, came up with another piece of his programming wisdom (like using a filesystem as a database because databases were unreliable).. It's from a south park episode, with a marketing drone going "The end-all greatest marketing scheme of all times". What drives geeks : - Toys - food - BEER - challenges - sex - Bandwidth - Bragging rights - Flame Wars From ahorn at deorth.org Thu Jun 17 14:11:09 2004 From: ahorn at deorth.org (Alan Horn) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 14:11:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Repeated emails ? Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 09:39:10 -0700 From: "Edwards, Greg" To: fscked at pacbell.net, baylisa Subject: RE: BayLISA -> BayISSA There is a problem with BayISSA. Suggest another set of letter. See www.issa.org or www.sv-issa.org (and you all are all welcome to the Silicon Valley ISSA meetings). Thank you Greg Edwards CISSP, GCIH ------ Am I the only one thats received multiple copies of this so far ? Cheers, Al From greg.edwards at lmco.com Thu Jun 17 09:39:10 2004 From: greg.edwards at lmco.com (Edwards, Greg) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 09:39:10 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA Message-ID: <982A2933712F3740921D842654ED470D06D2E365@emss01m12.us.lmco.com> There is a problem with BayISSA. Suggest another set of letter. See www.issa.org or www.sv-issa.org (and you all are all welcome to the Silicon Valley ISSA meetings). Thank you Greg Edwards CISSP, GCIH -----Original Message----- From: owner-baylisa at baylisa.org [mailto:owner-baylisa at baylisa.org]On Behalf Of richard childers / kg6hac Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 7:36 AM To: baylisa Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA Another thing to think about is the exclusivity implies by the acronum 'LISA'. Who defines what's 'Large'? The arrays of 500 MB hard drives I managed in 1986 - each one over a hundred pounds in weight, and requiring two strong men to lift, and a third to align with sliding rack supports - why, their data could fit into a laptop now. The same laptop contains more computing power than an entire room full of servers, 'way back when. But no one would seriously suggest that managing a small stack of laptops is equivalent to managing a half a dozen server rooms. No, although the complexity within the server is an important metric of the capacity of the administrator, it is the potential interconnections with other islands of complexity which elicit another level of complexity; and it is that complexity which we administer. Not the servers, but their relationships, across networks. (I could fill fifteen minutes, easily, with a small talk on objectively measuring the entropy of a given network, using procedures which generate numbers which will garner respect in the board room; but I digress.) And yet, within the acronym LISA, I see no room for network administrators, or network service administrators ... or database administrators, for that matter. Obviously these groups have their own SIGs; and yet, administration of servers and their services is closely linked to authentication mechanisms, which are increasingly distributed and must be seen in their proper context - which is that they are simply another service, and that database administrators are, fundamentally, providers of a service that is server-based nd network-delivered, and for that reason, they can best be regarded as network service administrators, like the rest of us. (Indeed, the market itself is saying as much. How many ads do you see for someone to administer their Linux servers, Windows clients, Mac clients, database, do a little SQL, administer their firewall, maintain their router, and maybe tap-dance, too? The boundaries that exist in the IT marketplace are largely a result of organizational, and consequently, budgetary, boundaries, which the current economic slump has erased - they do not reflect the actual problems [which span from the desktops, across the networks, to the servers] or the capacities of the individuals whose job it is to troubleshoot them.) The acronym 'LISA' is dated for another reason; it alludes to a period when big iron was predominant. This is no longer the case. Distributed computing is increasingly a player in scientific communities - and by that term I include hackers, of course. Wireless connectivity isn't just over the horizon, it's here, and the speed is increasing every year. Using a volt-ohm-meter remains an important skill - but so does orienting an antenna for maximum gain. Sure, you'll still find pockets of concentrated computing capacity, but nowadays, with a gHz laptop in almost every house, the mean mHz of computing power per square acre of urban landscape has taken a big step upwards. I'd like to propose disbanding BayLISA, and creating BayISSA - 'ISSA' as referring to 'Information Systems & Services Administrators', which comprises network administrators, network services administrators, and server administrators, without drawing any boundaries which exclude. Regards, -- richard -- Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services 945 Taraval Street, #105 San Francisco, CA 94116 USA [011.]1.415.759.5571 http://www.daemonized.com -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) mQGiBECGpfsRBACoPJJfIIrWAqjlW92TtYCtY//e7OW8alWylr/1ygtSQzjCCdvC Ysa0fCcx01UenlWV+5YY/zC7KPsX2rQUKAs20fqs9et74dmgMGOj0vMjTzWEs29G FyAsIRSpFioa8zzrjXEUVnU6OFaD9a9eaC+LSTCiKgXjbQySDKM5T1c+vwCg8W3Y RZ83LRIUULGMPlY6zS4fQwUEAIIiTHDdWpbE+HeREJwH+4eDpGVf76XtNlOMXrt9 tJ3ExL+9ezLulg1nCrOYodOB7TEZqzV40R7emDZSX0hI9QEBCv6nW5aDVpw/bf+q UEHwxrUvE2LBi35hoqR2QwqNlagOauSorWj8Qm/31luxJVeLVy1A1czp6B/mvG1T co03A/9a5kzEAebJ5TzWXQC2/4gu/osXQnrw9B9FFpYOtLc0MNQuAFt8VLn5yO5Q 8T58w+FQvFI5FqzI5URmjQeEyWWuyIechknk4RnwIO1UPVjgRTuNgf9/TvNNfqpa aVlbNp+AG21D6VqsFN2zJFFJeUqiYdXw6i+ESL3SZRymIhwYWrQ8UmljaGFyZCBB IENoaWxkZXJzICh3d3cuZGFlbW9uaXplZC5jb20pIDxmc2NrZWRAcGFjYmVsbC5u ZXQ+iF4EExECAB4FAkCGpfsCGwMGCwkIBwMCAxUCAwMWAgECHgECF4AACgkQjGqW TlNTP66KzQCgjf0SQbiK1rgu7hRsmLPSSaGF7X8AoL7Qw/E9kTZr0fntP0XXEnk/ q6nRuQINBECGpvkQCADFzFq+kYbk+KTIhcVBTjTWDbBnjGgmuGR3LGp9hOd6W9SJ i4GD5184ZnMbEgvDZcDEGDNgMcU+f1girwYI2v/o7QA7VQ5bpUbnfOBytzO+bvd7 uCOyJltg8AG5MFLxfhAMHofpNxGlFTEXdVp4M9xyBB+hdLHbJNJqkMGPf+iCUf1W Q86KncU2AK4Sf9I+WYBZwkjaIhi9dQzeEX1c0Um6LxXSBtkjZprIk1M13gVaIJ6E dDN6hrSMbXZL+7yURw38vHXCtRJAKEOyW178rI8MzJzvVNhobvC62uEWD9Idz8sH 5A06fqb2fKJYLQ1keGUpb/qpny7oTmAe0Hx9jOM7AAMGCACdTe1M4U++/7/OVGip 1gnWEtMhHeQQbS7KPh1w8/1kvs5Mml6uGYQI44lKTDP7OHJQ9hIT/+5tfKPHIPhU M/7Mqa8y81c/AK+WUOyY9+uZ0zUxFGMqeU9z5iqJFWSi9QR/f5q/khfmqi5RFVyQ nnVhxBMB8pY1vZHV1CoL7NLK4c/N8mpwCiZ57LTsP8pLfDMWF/OopmM2ulzlfWTr anAdxQohenq/zTgSySX/VGZYSYvyAoXTRuU4USAVGWcUQPnVooA1N7lZP3pawjNP QMSukx9jI1673BPsPXxyQZ1PmmPt9eHKI0G0hNJG+FCmSRLNT/R7hqTzTUmpgMWM yyWPiEkEGBECAAkFAkCGpvkCGwwACgkQjGqWTlNTP642KACeITHq0b42P3oMX7Nj F5U3EaqCgYoAn3HxUB7ELB6vMUugW4aSmZpBJOR6 =ZaJO -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From ahorn at deorth.org Thu Jun 17 14:13:16 2004 From: ahorn at deorth.org (Alan Horn) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 14:13:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA - same people In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Alvin Oga wrote: >> On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Roy S. Rapoport wrote: >> >>>> There is a problem with BayISSA. Suggest another set of letter. See >>>> www.issa.org or www.sv-issa.org >>> >>> Not to point out the obvious, but how about, simply, Bay Area IT Personnel? >>> baitp.[com|org] are both available. > I realised over lunch in the car, was this choice an intentionally bad pun (Bait-P? Feeding the trolls ?) anyway.. just thought I'd share, if it was unintentional, then well done.. stupendously good coincidence. :) From sigje at sigje.org Thu Jun 17 14:24:08 2004 From: sigje at sigje.org (Jennifer Davis) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 14:24:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AIX question In-Reply-To: <20040617203455.GA21057@starbase.feep.net> References: <20040617144352.Q17210-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> <20040617203455.GA21057@starbase.feep.net> Message-ID: Haha! Your website here: http://www.feep.net/AIX/boot.html was actually pretty helpful (as was the menu above). Thanks for posting that information. :) Jennifer From rsr at inorganic.org Thu Jun 17 14:41:04 2004 From: rsr at inorganic.org (Roy S. Rapoport) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 14:41:04 -0700 Subject: Repeated emails ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040617214104.GA25291@puppy.inorganic.org> On Thu, Jun 17, 2004 at 02:11:09PM -0700, Alan Horn wrote: > Am I the only one thats received multiple copies of this so far ? I guess that means I don't have to look through my mail logs to figure out where the problem is. (As in: No, you're not) -roy From k6dlc at arrl.net Thu Jun 17 14:53:29 2004 From: k6dlc at arrl.net (Daniel Curry) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 14:53:29 -0700 Subject: Repeated emails ? In-Reply-To: <20040617214104.GA25291@puppy.inorganic.org> References: <20040617214104.GA25291@puppy.inorganic.org> Message-ID: <40D212D9.3040208@arrl.net> Roy S. Rapoport wrote: > On Thu, Jun 17, 2004 at 02:11:09PM -0700, Alan Horn wrote: > >>Am I the only one thats received multiple copies of this so far ? > > > I guess that means I don't have to look through my mail logs to figure out > where the problem is. > > (As in: No, you're not) > > -roy > I am also getting the repeated email from Greg Edwards. -- Daniel Curry AD5A 96DC 7556 A020 B8E7 0E4D 5D5E 9BA5 C83E 8C92 From rolnif at mac.com Thu Jun 17 15:21:21 2004 From: rolnif at mac.com (John Martinez) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 15:21:21 -0700 Subject: Repeated emails ? In-Reply-To: <40D212D9.3040208@arrl.net> References: <20040617214104.GA25291@puppy.inorganic.org> <40D212D9.3040208@arrl.net> Message-ID: On Jun 17, 2004, at 2:53 PM, Daniel Curry wrote: > I am also getting the repeated email from Greg Edwards. Good, I was starting to think that my mail client was going crazy. -john From strata at virtual.net Thu Jun 17 15:28:01 2004 From: strata at virtual.net (Strata R Chalup) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 15:28:01 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <8A69CCA1-C095-11D8-B892-000A9566DF3E@cs.indiana.edu> References: <8A69CCA1-C095-11D8-B892-000A9566DF3E@cs.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <40D21AF1.9080408@virtual.net> Ten thousand blessings and extra quantum foam on your Schrodinger's latte. Thank you! _SRC Jordan Johnson wrote: > Then I guess it's worth mentioning (though I've been reluctant to pipe > up thus far) that I've been following BayLISA's list and attending some > meetings as a HS teacher with an interest in working on my school's > infrastructure. > > So for the record, the name is *not* intimidating, and does *not* > suggest exclusionary practices to innocent bystanders. Carry on. :> > > Cheers, > jmj > > -- > Jordan Johnson (Email manipulator #22483617) > > -- ======================================================================== Strata Rose Chalup [KF6NBZ] strata "@" virtual.net VirtualNet Consulting http://www.virtual.net/ ** Project Management & Architecture for ISP/ASP Systems Integration ** ========================================================================= From greg.edwards at lmco.com Thu Jun 17 09:39:10 2004 From: greg.edwards at lmco.com (Edwards, Greg) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 09:39:10 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA Message-ID: <982A2933712F3740921D842654ED470D06D2E365@emss01m12.us.lmco.com> There is a problem with BayISSA. Suggest another set of letter. See www.issa.org or www.sv-issa.org (and you all are all welcome to the Silicon Valley ISSA meetings). Thank you Greg Edwards CISSP, GCIH -----Original Message----- From: owner-baylisa at baylisa.org [mailto:owner-baylisa at baylisa.org]On Behalf Of richard childers / kg6hac Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 7:36 AM To: baylisa Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA Another thing to think about is the exclusivity implies by the acronum 'LISA'. Who defines what's 'Large'? The arrays of 500 MB hard drives I managed in 1986 - each one over a hundred pounds in weight, and requiring two strong men to lift, and a third to align with sliding rack supports - why, their data could fit into a laptop now. The same laptop contains more computing power than an entire room full of servers, 'way back when. But no one would seriously suggest that managing a small stack of laptops is equivalent to managing a half a dozen server rooms. No, although the complexity within the server is an important metric of the capacity of the administrator, it is the potential interconnections with other islands of complexity which elicit another level of complexity; and it is that complexity which we administer. Not the servers, but their relationships, across networks. (I could fill fifteen minutes, easily, with a small talk on objectively measuring the entropy of a given network, using procedures which generate numbers which will garner respect in the board room; but I digress.) And yet, within the acronym LISA, I see no room for network administrators, or network service administrators ... or database administrators, for that matter. Obviously these groups have their own SIGs; and yet, administration of servers and their services is closely linked to authentication mechanisms, which are increasingly distributed and must be seen in their proper context - which is that they are simply another service, and that database administrators are, fundamentally, providers of a service that is server-based nd network-delivered, and for that reason, they can best be regarded as network service administrators, like the rest of us. (Indeed, the market itself is saying as much. How many ads do you see for someone to administer their Linux servers, Windows clients, Mac clients, database, do a little SQL, administer their firewall, maintain their router, and maybe tap-dance, too? The boundaries that exist in the IT marketplace are largely a result of organizational, and consequently, budgetary, boundaries, which the current economic slump has erased - they do not reflect the actual problems [which span from the desktops, across the networks, to the servers] or the capacities of the individuals whose job it is to troubleshoot them.) The acronym 'LISA' is dated for another reason; it alludes to a period when big iron was predominant. This is no longer the case. Distributed computing is increasingly a player in scientific communities - and by that term I include hackers, of course. Wireless connectivity isn't just over the horizon, it's here, and the speed is increasing every year. Using a volt-ohm-meter remains an important skill - but so does orienting an antenna for maximum gain. Sure, you'll still find pockets of concentrated computing capacity, but nowadays, with a gHz laptop in almost every house, the mean mHz of computing power per square acre of urban landscape has taken a big step upwards. I'd like to propose disbanding BayLISA, and creating BayISSA - 'ISSA' as referring to 'Information Systems & Services Administrators', which comprises network administrators, network services administrators, and server administrators, without drawing any boundaries which exclude. Regards, -- richard -- Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services 945 Taraval Street, #105 San Francisco, CA 94116 USA [011.]1.415.759.5571 http://www.daemonized.com -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) mQGiBECGpfsRBACoPJJfIIrWAqjlW92TtYCtY//e7OW8alWylr/1ygtSQzjCCdvC Ysa0fCcx01UenlWV+5YY/zC7KPsX2rQUKAs20fqs9et74dmgMGOj0vMjTzWEs29G FyAsIRSpFioa8zzrjXEUVnU6OFaD9a9eaC+LSTCiKgXjbQySDKM5T1c+vwCg8W3Y RZ83LRIUULGMPlY6zS4fQwUEAIIiTHDdWpbE+HeREJwH+4eDpGVf76XtNlOMXrt9 tJ3ExL+9ezLulg1nCrOYodOB7TEZqzV40R7emDZSX0hI9QEBCv6nW5aDVpw/bf+q UEHwxrUvE2LBi35hoqR2QwqNlagOauSorWj8Qm/31luxJVeLVy1A1czp6B/mvG1T co03A/9a5kzEAebJ5TzWXQC2/4gu/osXQnrw9B9FFpYOtLc0MNQuAFt8VLn5yO5Q 8T58w+FQvFI5FqzI5URmjQeEyWWuyIechknk4RnwIO1UPVjgRTuNgf9/TvNNfqpa aVlbNp+AG21D6VqsFN2zJFFJeUqiYdXw6i+ESL3SZRymIhwYWrQ8UmljaGFyZCBB IENoaWxkZXJzICh3d3cuZGFlbW9uaXplZC5jb20pIDxmc2NrZWRAcGFjYmVsbC5u ZXQ+iF4EExECAB4FAkCGpfsCGwMGCwkIBwMCAxUCAwMWAgECHgECF4AACgkQjGqW TlNTP66KzQCgjf0SQbiK1rgu7hRsmLPSSaGF7X8AoL7Qw/E9kTZr0fntP0XXEnk/ q6nRuQINBECGpvkQCADFzFq+kYbk+KTIhcVBTjTWDbBnjGgmuGR3LGp9hOd6W9SJ i4GD5184ZnMbEgvDZcDEGDNgMcU+f1girwYI2v/o7QA7VQ5bpUbnfOBytzO+bvd7 uCOyJltg8AG5MFLxfhAMHofpNxGlFTEXdVp4M9xyBB+hdLHbJNJqkMGPf+iCUf1W Q86KncU2AK4Sf9I+WYBZwkjaIhi9dQzeEX1c0Um6LxXSBtkjZprIk1M13gVaIJ6E dDN6hrSMbXZL+7yURw38vHXCtRJAKEOyW178rI8MzJzvVNhobvC62uEWD9Idz8sH 5A06fqb2fKJYLQ1keGUpb/qpny7oTmAe0Hx9jOM7AAMGCACdTe1M4U++/7/OVGip 1gnWEtMhHeQQbS7KPh1w8/1kvs5Mml6uGYQI44lKTDP7OHJQ9hIT/+5tfKPHIPhU M/7Mqa8y81c/AK+WUOyY9+uZ0zUxFGMqeU9z5iqJFWSi9QR/f5q/khfmqi5RFVyQ nnVhxBMB8pY1vZHV1CoL7NLK4c/N8mpwCiZ57LTsP8pLfDMWF/OopmM2ulzlfWTr anAdxQohenq/zTgSySX/VGZYSYvyAoXTRuU4USAVGWcUQPnVooA1N7lZP3pawjNP QMSukx9jI1673BPsPXxyQZ1PmmPt9eHKI0G0hNJG+FCmSRLNT/R7hqTzTUmpgMWM yyWPiEkEGBECAAkFAkCGpvkCGwwACgkQjGqWTlNTP642KACeITHq0b42P3oMX7Nj F5U3EaqCgYoAn3HxUB7ELB6vMUugW4aSmZpBJOR6 =ZaJO -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From strata at virtual.net Thu Jun 17 15:29:40 2004 From: strata at virtual.net (Strata R Chalup) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 15:29:40 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <20040617195434.GA24807@2004.snew.com> References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> <20040615203221.GB5397@starshine.org> <40D09D2F.1070602@virtual.net> <2147483647.1087397560@216-127-207-61.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1AC3F.8050405@pacbell.net> <2147483647.1087473108@216-127-207-67.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1D23B.6080200@pacbell.net> <20040617195434.GA24807@2004.snew.com> Message-ID: <40D21B54.4020507@virtual.net> Hal Pomeranz, before his move up to Eugene OR, tried to get an EastBayLISA or NorthBayLISA going but not enough folks were interested to make it work (doh). _SRC Chuck Yerkes wrote: > No, MY main issue that keeps we away from meetings is that as > someone who lives pretty near the Bay ("group" to you others), > getting from OaklandBerkeley to Apple is hell. Well, heck at > least. I briefly contemplated a job at Apple and having > neither catapult, chopper nor pneumatic tube, considered the > Rt24 -> Cuperitino motorcycle ride. > > Perhaps Steve Jobs would lend us E. Bayers his chopper for 'air pooling'. > > -- ======================================================================== Strata Rose Chalup [KF6NBZ] strata "@" virtual.net VirtualNet Consulting http://www.virtual.net/ ** Project Management & Architecture for ISP/ASP Systems Integration ** ========================================================================= From strata at virtual.net Thu Jun 17 15:36:12 2004 From: strata at virtual.net (Strata R Chalup) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 15:36:12 -0700 Subject: BayLisa the real problem. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40D21CDC.8050403@virtual.net> That's a really interesting idea. Maybe a quarterly 'different area' meeting, if we can get folks to host it? It's worth a mention that if we could find a location in Millbrae near both Caltrain and BART, that might be a good compromise location for North/East/South Bay types. Although I consider anything north of Palo Alto "too darn far north" these days, I'd do it once every 3 to 6 months just to see folks. Let me turn the question around-- Michael, are you willing to find a place that can host an SF 'BayLISA' meeting a few times a year, and take point on coordinating it? Failing that, if we could get MBONE or a modern equivalent going again, a place that some SF/EB folks could gather to watch and interact? For the SF-based meetings, us South Bay types who wouldn't go that far north, for whatever reason, could meet at the usual location and view the feed from SF. cheers, Strata Michael T. Halligan wrote: > What can we automate in the BayLISA group? Can we rotate the locations > of the meetings, to get greater coverage? Would split-meetings work > (having video conferencing between two or three sites). Can we write > snmp-agents to collect the value experience (commradery, anecdote > sharing, information discovery, networking, shared food) and input it > back into ourselves? -- ======================================================================== Strata Rose Chalup [KF6NBZ] strata "@" virtual.net VirtualNet Consulting http://www.virtual.net/ ** Project Management & Architecture for ISP/ASP Systems Integration ** ========================================================================= From greg.edwards at lmco.com Thu Jun 17 15:19:44 2004 From: greg.edwards at lmco.com (Edwards, Greg) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 15:19:44 -0700 Subject: Repeated emails ? Message-ID: <982A2933712F3740921D842654ED470D06D2E385@emss01m12.us.lmco.com> So am I Greg -----Original Message----- From: owner-baylisa at baylisa.org [mailto:owner-baylisa at baylisa.org]On Behalf Of Daniel Curry Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 2:53 PM To: Roy S. Rapoport Cc: baylisa at baylisa.org Subject: Re: Repeated emails ? Roy S. Rapoport wrote: > On Thu, Jun 17, 2004 at 02:11:09PM -0700, Alan Horn wrote: > >>Am I the only one thats received multiple copies of this so far ? > > > I guess that means I don't have to look through my mail logs to figure out > where the problem is. > > (As in: No, you're not) > > -roy > I am also getting the repeated email from Greg Edwards. -- Daniel Curry AD5A 96DC 7556 A020 B8E7 0E4D 5D5E 9BA5 C83E 8C92 From jxh at jxh.com Thu Jun 17 15:39:35 2004 From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 17:39:35 -0500 Subject: BayLisa the real problem. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2147483647.1087493975@216-127-207-67.strgbay.dcwis.com> > Being in the south bay means laziness by nature. Lack of public > transportation, excess of strip malls and suburbs. That's the lifestyle, > "do we do something interesting with our life, or do we watch television > and order out?" I know where _I_ usually end up on this scale. :-) > What can we automate in the BayLISA group? Can we rotate the locations > of the meetings, to get greater coverage? Would split-meetings work > (having video conferencing between two or three sites). One of the hardest things I did as a board member for BayLISA was to arrange a meeting site -- just one at a time. Some of them didn't come with Internet access at all, for less than an extortionate fee (that's when the MBONE stuff stopped, for us). Getting people to show up reliably with e.g. drinks and snacks is a major chore. Getting the video camera set up -- remembering to push the button! -- has been a challenge. All with volunteer labor and next to zero cash. Tripling these things doesn't sound like a winner, on the face of it. But I don't know. A webcast of some kind would be neat (and it's not just me being selfish from out of town; we have heard continual requests for this.) That said, maybe it's time to look again for space. Apple has been very generous, but we like to move somewhat before we wear out our welcome, not afterward. (We were at Incyte too long, and went through two sponsors. That was me, being lazy about finding Apple.) And I think moving it a bit further north is a dandy idea. You'll never get the no-car crowd from the city anyway, so concentrate on the peninsula and mid-east-bay, as well as the south bay. I'd say. But you take what you can get. Moving also sheds a certain percentage of the attendees (the ones who just show up and never look at the web site), so it's best to announce this during a peak-attendance meeting, and with a couple of months' notice. November (the board election) would be a good month to announce a future site change. So: Who has a line on such a space? From greg.edwards at lmco.com Thu Jun 17 15:19:44 2004 From: greg.edwards at lmco.com (Edwards, Greg) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 15:19:44 -0700 Subject: Repeated emails ? Message-ID: <982A2933712F3740921D842654ED470D06D2E385@emss01m12.us.lmco.com> So am I Greg -----Original Message----- From: owner-baylisa at baylisa.org [mailto:owner-baylisa at baylisa.org]On Behalf Of Daniel Curry Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 2:53 PM To: Roy S. Rapoport Cc: baylisa at baylisa.org Subject: Re: Repeated emails ? Roy S. Rapoport wrote: > On Thu, Jun 17, 2004 at 02:11:09PM -0700, Alan Horn wrote: > >>Am I the only one thats received multiple copies of this so far ? > > > I guess that means I don't have to look through my mail logs to figure out > where the problem is. > > (As in: No, you're not) > > -roy > I am also getting the repeated email from Greg Edwards. -- Daniel Curry AD5A 96DC 7556 A020 B8E7 0E4D 5D5E 9BA5 C83E 8C92 From mark at bitshift.org Thu Jun 17 15:49:25 2004 From: mark at bitshift.org (Mark C. Langston) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 15:49:25 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <40D21B54.4020507@virtual.net> References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> <20040615203221.GB5397@starshine.org> <40D09D2F.1070602@virtual.net> <2147483647.1087397560@216-127-207-61.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1AC3F.8050405@pacbell.net> <2147483647.1087473108@216-127-207-67.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1D23B.6080200@pacbell.net> <20040617195434.GA24807@2004.snew.com> <40D21B54.4020507@virtual.net> Message-ID: <20040617224925.GQ797@bitshift.org> On Thu, Jun 17, 2004 at 03:29:40PM -0700, Strata R Chalup wrote: > > Hal Pomeranz, before his move up to Eugene OR, tried to get an > EastBayLISA or NorthBayLISA going but not enough folks were > interested to make it work (doh). My experience with this problem in the SFFf Bay area has demonstrated there are two possible solutions, with typical outcomes: 1) Refuse to splinter group. If people want to come, they come. If not, they don't. Outcome 1: Group dies from lack of interest. Outcome 2: Group remains, with continued interest, a "core" group of attendees, and rotating irregulars. 2) Splinter group into one or more regional groups. Outcome 1: Splinter groups die from lack of participation. Outcome 2: Splinter groups survive, main group dies. Little or no communication among splinter groups. Outcome 3: Splinter groups survive, main group survives. Amount of participation in all groups suffers. Splinter groups are great if there's an overabundance of participation, or distinct subinterests that diverge significantly from the main group. I don't see either occurring here. -- Mark C. Langston Sr. Unix SysAdmin mark at bitshift.org mark at seti.org Systems & Network Admin SETI Institute http://bitshift.org http://www.seti.org From strata at virtual.net Thu Jun 17 15:52:22 2004 From: strata at virtual.net (Strata R Chalup) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 15:52:22 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <40D1D23B.6080200@pacbell.net> References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> <20040615203221.GB5397@starshine.org> <40D09D2F.1070602@virtual.net> <2147483647.1087397560@216-127-207-61.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1AC3F.8050405@pacbell.net> <2147483647.1087473108@216-127-207-67.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1D23B.6080200@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <40D220A6.9010300@virtual.net> It's also no secret that your confrontational style has been for several years now the single largest point source of complaints reaching me personally about BayLISA's mailing lists. As a BayLISA Board member, I must stress that as a California registered 501(3)c, BayLISA welcomes participation from anyone and everyone, as indeed it is required by law to do. As an individual, rather than a Board member, I heartily wish, sir, that you would simply go away. If your interaction style on this mailing list is a sample of your technical or management prowess, I am distinctly unimpressed. Strata Chalup, KF6NBZ richard childers / kg6hac wrote: > It's no secret that LISA is top-heavy with management who are long on > politics and short on sharing their (frequently alluded to, but rarely > displayed) expertise; it's time for a change. > > > Regards, > > -- richard -- ======================================================================== Strata Rose Chalup [KF6NBZ] strata "@" virtual.net VirtualNet Consulting http://www.virtual.net/ ** Project Management & Architecture for ISP/ASP Systems Integration ** ========================================================================= From greg.edwards at lmco.com Thu Jun 17 09:39:10 2004 From: greg.edwards at lmco.com (Edwards, Greg) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 09:39:10 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA Message-ID: <982A2933712F3740921D842654ED470D06D2E365@emss01m12.us.lmco.com> There is a problem with BayISSA. Suggest another set of letter. See www.issa.org or www.sv-issa.org (and you all are all welcome to the Silicon Valley ISSA meetings). Thank you Greg Edwards CISSP, GCIH -----Original Message----- From: owner-baylisa at baylisa.org [mailto:owner-baylisa at baylisa.org]On Behalf Of richard childers / kg6hac Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 7:36 AM To: baylisa Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA Another thing to think about is the exclusivity implies by the acronum 'LISA'. Who defines what's 'Large'? The arrays of 500 MB hard drives I managed in 1986 - each one over a hundred pounds in weight, and requiring two strong men to lift, and a third to align with sliding rack supports - why, their data could fit into a laptop now. The same laptop contains more computing power than an entire room full of servers, 'way back when. But no one would seriously suggest that managing a small stack of laptops is equivalent to managing a half a dozen server rooms. No, although the complexity within the server is an important metric of the capacity of the administrator, it is the potential interconnections with other islands of complexity which elicit another level of complexity; and it is that complexity which we administer. Not the servers, but their relationships, across networks. (I could fill fifteen minutes, easily, with a small talk on objectively measuring the entropy of a given network, using procedures which generate numbers which will garner respect in the board room; but I digress.) And yet, within the acronym LISA, I see no room for network administrators, or network service administrators ... or database administrators, for that matter. Obviously these groups have their own SIGs; and yet, administration of servers and their services is closely linked to authentication mechanisms, which are increasingly distributed and must be seen in their proper context - which is that they are simply another service, and that database administrators are, fundamentally, providers of a service that is server-based nd network-delivered, and for that reason, they can best be regarded as network service administrators, like the rest of us. (Indeed, the market itself is saying as much. How many ads do you see for someone to administer their Linux servers, Windows clients, Mac clients, database, do a little SQL, administer their firewall, maintain their router, and maybe tap-dance, too? The boundaries that exist in the IT marketplace are largely a result of organizational, and consequently, budgetary, boundaries, which the current economic slump has erased - they do not reflect the actual problems [which span from the desktops, across the networks, to the servers] or the capacities of the individuals whose job it is to troubleshoot them.) The acronym 'LISA' is dated for another reason; it alludes to a period when big iron was predominant. This is no longer the case. Distributed computing is increasingly a player in scientific communities - and by that term I include hackers, of course. Wireless connectivity isn't just over the horizon, it's here, and the speed is increasing every year. Using a volt-ohm-meter remains an important skill - but so does orienting an antenna for maximum gain. Sure, you'll still find pockets of concentrated computing capacity, but nowadays, with a gHz laptop in almost every house, the mean mHz of computing power per square acre of urban landscape has taken a big step upwards. I'd like to propose disbanding BayLISA, and creating BayISSA - 'ISSA' as referring to 'Information Systems & Services Administrators', which comprises network administrators, network services administrators, and server administrators, without drawing any boundaries which exclude. Regards, -- richard -- Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services 945 Taraval Street, #105 San Francisco, CA 94116 USA [011.]1.415.759.5571 http://www.daemonized.com -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) mQGiBECGpfsRBACoPJJfIIrWAqjlW92TtYCtY//e7OW8alWylr/1ygtSQzjCCdvC Ysa0fCcx01UenlWV+5YY/zC7KPsX2rQUKAs20fqs9et74dmgMGOj0vMjTzWEs29G FyAsIRSpFioa8zzrjXEUVnU6OFaD9a9eaC+LSTCiKgXjbQySDKM5T1c+vwCg8W3Y RZ83LRIUULGMPlY6zS4fQwUEAIIiTHDdWpbE+HeREJwH+4eDpGVf76XtNlOMXrt9 tJ3ExL+9ezLulg1nCrOYodOB7TEZqzV40R7emDZSX0hI9QEBCv6nW5aDVpw/bf+q UEHwxrUvE2LBi35hoqR2QwqNlagOauSorWj8Qm/31luxJVeLVy1A1czp6B/mvG1T co03A/9a5kzEAebJ5TzWXQC2/4gu/osXQnrw9B9FFpYOtLc0MNQuAFt8VLn5yO5Q 8T58w+FQvFI5FqzI5URmjQeEyWWuyIechknk4RnwIO1UPVjgRTuNgf9/TvNNfqpa aVlbNp+AG21D6VqsFN2zJFFJeUqiYdXw6i+ESL3SZRymIhwYWrQ8UmljaGFyZCBB IENoaWxkZXJzICh3d3cuZGFlbW9uaXplZC5jb20pIDxmc2NrZWRAcGFjYmVsbC5u ZXQ+iF4EExECAB4FAkCGpfsCGwMGCwkIBwMCAxUCAwMWAgECHgECF4AACgkQjGqW TlNTP66KzQCgjf0SQbiK1rgu7hRsmLPSSaGF7X8AoL7Qw/E9kTZr0fntP0XXEnk/ q6nRuQINBECGpvkQCADFzFq+kYbk+KTIhcVBTjTWDbBnjGgmuGR3LGp9hOd6W9SJ i4GD5184ZnMbEgvDZcDEGDNgMcU+f1girwYI2v/o7QA7VQ5bpUbnfOBytzO+bvd7 uCOyJltg8AG5MFLxfhAMHofpNxGlFTEXdVp4M9xyBB+hdLHbJNJqkMGPf+iCUf1W Q86KncU2AK4Sf9I+WYBZwkjaIhi9dQzeEX1c0Um6LxXSBtkjZprIk1M13gVaIJ6E dDN6hrSMbXZL+7yURw38vHXCtRJAKEOyW178rI8MzJzvVNhobvC62uEWD9Idz8sH 5A06fqb2fKJYLQ1keGUpb/qpny7oTmAe0Hx9jOM7AAMGCACdTe1M4U++/7/OVGip 1gnWEtMhHeQQbS7KPh1w8/1kvs5Mml6uGYQI44lKTDP7OHJQ9hIT/+5tfKPHIPhU M/7Mqa8y81c/AK+WUOyY9+uZ0zUxFGMqeU9z5iqJFWSi9QR/f5q/khfmqi5RFVyQ nnVhxBMB8pY1vZHV1CoL7NLK4c/N8mpwCiZ57LTsP8pLfDMWF/OopmM2ulzlfWTr anAdxQohenq/zTgSySX/VGZYSYvyAoXTRuU4USAVGWcUQPnVooA1N7lZP3pawjNP QMSukx9jI1673BPsPXxyQZ1PmmPt9eHKI0G0hNJG+FCmSRLNT/R7hqTzTUmpgMWM yyWPiEkEGBECAAkFAkCGpvkCGwwACgkQjGqWTlNTP642KACeITHq0b42P3oMX7Nj F5U3EaqCgYoAn3HxUB7ELB6vMUugW4aSmZpBJOR6 =ZaJO -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From greg.edwards at lmco.com Thu Jun 17 09:39:10 2004 From: greg.edwards at lmco.com (Edwards, Greg) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 09:39:10 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA Message-ID: <982A2933712F3740921D842654ED470D06D2E365@emss01m12.us.lmco.com> There is a problem with BayISSA. Suggest another set of letter. See www.issa.org or www.sv-issa.org (and you all are all welcome to the Silicon Valley ISSA meetings). Thank you Greg Edwards CISSP, GCIH -----Original Message----- From: owner-baylisa at baylisa.org [mailto:owner-baylisa at baylisa.org]On Behalf Of richard childers / kg6hac Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 7:36 AM To: baylisa Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA Another thing to think about is the exclusivity implies by the acronum 'LISA'. Who defines what's 'Large'? The arrays of 500 MB hard drives I managed in 1986 - each one over a hundred pounds in weight, and requiring two strong men to lift, and a third to align with sliding rack supports - why, their data could fit into a laptop now. The same laptop contains more computing power than an entire room full of servers, 'way back when. But no one would seriously suggest that managing a small stack of laptops is equivalent to managing a half a dozen server rooms. No, although the complexity within the server is an important metric of the capacity of the administrator, it is the potential interconnections with other islands of complexity which elicit another level of complexity; and it is that complexity which we administer. Not the servers, but their relationships, across networks. (I could fill fifteen minutes, easily, with a small talk on objectively measuring the entropy of a given network, using procedures which generate numbers which will garner respect in the board room; but I digress.) And yet, within the acronym LISA, I see no room for network administrators, or network service administrators ... or database administrators, for that matter. Obviously these groups have their own SIGs; and yet, administration of servers and their services is closely linked to authentication mechanisms, which are increasingly distributed and must be seen in their proper context - which is that they are simply another service, and that database administrators are, fundamentally, providers of a service that is server-based nd network-delivered, and for that reason, they can best be regarded as network service administrators, like the rest of us. (Indeed, the market itself is saying as much. How many ads do you see for someone to administer their Linux servers, Windows clients, Mac clients, database, do a little SQL, administer their firewall, maintain their router, and maybe tap-dance, too? The boundaries that exist in the IT marketplace are largely a result of organizational, and consequently, budgetary, boundaries, which the current economic slump has erased - they do not reflect the actual problems [which span from the desktops, across the networks, to the servers] or the capacities of the individuals whose job it is to troubleshoot them.) The acronym 'LISA' is dated for another reason; it alludes to a period when big iron was predominant. This is no longer the case. Distributed computing is increasingly a player in scientific communities - and by that term I include hackers, of course. Wireless connectivity isn't just over the horizon, it's here, and the speed is increasing every year. Using a volt-ohm-meter remains an important skill - but so does orienting an antenna for maximum gain. Sure, you'll still find pockets of concentrated computing capacity, but nowadays, with a gHz laptop in almost every house, the mean mHz of computing power per square acre of urban landscape has taken a big step upwards. I'd like to propose disbanding BayLISA, and creating BayISSA - 'ISSA' as referring to 'Information Systems & Services Administrators', which comprises network administrators, network services administrators, and server administrators, without drawing any boundaries which exclude. Regards, -- richard -- Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services 945 Taraval Street, #105 San Francisco, CA 94116 USA [011.]1.415.759.5571 http://www.daemonized.com -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) mQGiBECGpfsRBACoPJJfIIrWAqjlW92TtYCtY//e7OW8alWylr/1ygtSQzjCCdvC Ysa0fCcx01UenlWV+5YY/zC7KPsX2rQUKAs20fqs9et74dmgMGOj0vMjTzWEs29G FyAsIRSpFioa8zzrjXEUVnU6OFaD9a9eaC+LSTCiKgXjbQySDKM5T1c+vwCg8W3Y RZ83LRIUULGMPlY6zS4fQwUEAIIiTHDdWpbE+HeREJwH+4eDpGVf76XtNlOMXrt9 tJ3ExL+9ezLulg1nCrOYodOB7TEZqzV40R7emDZSX0hI9QEBCv6nW5aDVpw/bf+q UEHwxrUvE2LBi35hoqR2QwqNlagOauSorWj8Qm/31luxJVeLVy1A1czp6B/mvG1T co03A/9a5kzEAebJ5TzWXQC2/4gu/osXQnrw9B9FFpYOtLc0MNQuAFt8VLn5yO5Q 8T58w+FQvFI5FqzI5URmjQeEyWWuyIechknk4RnwIO1UPVjgRTuNgf9/TvNNfqpa aVlbNp+AG21D6VqsFN2zJFFJeUqiYdXw6i+ESL3SZRymIhwYWrQ8UmljaGFyZCBB IENoaWxkZXJzICh3d3cuZGFlbW9uaXplZC5jb20pIDxmc2NrZWRAcGFjYmVsbC5u ZXQ+iF4EExECAB4FAkCGpfsCGwMGCwkIBwMCAxUCAwMWAgECHgECF4AACgkQjGqW TlNTP66KzQCgjf0SQbiK1rgu7hRsmLPSSaGF7X8AoL7Qw/E9kTZr0fntP0XXEnk/ q6nRuQINBECGpvkQCADFzFq+kYbk+KTIhcVBTjTWDbBnjGgmuGR3LGp9hOd6W9SJ i4GD5184ZnMbEgvDZcDEGDNgMcU+f1girwYI2v/o7QA7VQ5bpUbnfOBytzO+bvd7 uCOyJltg8AG5MFLxfhAMHofpNxGlFTEXdVp4M9xyBB+hdLHbJNJqkMGPf+iCUf1W Q86KncU2AK4Sf9I+WYBZwkjaIhi9dQzeEX1c0Um6LxXSBtkjZprIk1M13gVaIJ6E dDN6hrSMbXZL+7yURw38vHXCtRJAKEOyW178rI8MzJzvVNhobvC62uEWD9Idz8sH 5A06fqb2fKJYLQ1keGUpb/qpny7oTmAe0Hx9jOM7AAMGCACdTe1M4U++/7/OVGip 1gnWEtMhHeQQbS7KPh1w8/1kvs5Mml6uGYQI44lKTDP7OHJQ9hIT/+5tfKPHIPhU M/7Mqa8y81c/AK+WUOyY9+uZ0zUxFGMqeU9z5iqJFWSi9QR/f5q/khfmqi5RFVyQ nnVhxBMB8pY1vZHV1CoL7NLK4c/N8mpwCiZ57LTsP8pLfDMWF/OopmM2ulzlfWTr anAdxQohenq/zTgSySX/VGZYSYvyAoXTRuU4USAVGWcUQPnVooA1N7lZP3pawjNP QMSukx9jI1673BPsPXxyQZ1PmmPt9eHKI0G0hNJG+FCmSRLNT/R7hqTzTUmpgMWM yyWPiEkEGBECAAkFAkCGpvkCGwwACgkQjGqWTlNTP642KACeITHq0b42P3oMX7Nj F5U3EaqCgYoAn3HxUB7ELB6vMUugW4aSmZpBJOR6 =ZaJO -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From jeff at drinktomi.com Thu Jun 17 11:21:42 2004 From: jeff at drinktomi.com (Jeff With The Big Yellow Suit) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:21:42 -0700 Subject: Imminent Death of BayLISA / July Board Meeting Invitation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40D1E136.9050009@drinktomi.com> I agree with the issue of distance whole-heartedly. I live in Oakland, and it's just too far from Cupertino. I have enough problems getting over to San Francisco by 7:30. Getting to Cupertino is an adventure. -jeff > > From jerry at calmail.berkeley.edu Thu Jun 17 11:35:54 2004 From: jerry at calmail.berkeley.edu (Jerome M Berkman) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:35:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <20040617165438.GH797@bitshift.org> References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> <20040615203221.GB5397@starshine.org> <40D09D2F.1070602@virtual.net> <2147483647.1087397560@216-127-207-61.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1AC3F.8050405@pacbell.net> <20040617165438.GH797@bitshift.org> Message-ID: Often the origin/expansion of acronym's is forgotten and discontinued, e.g. for the NAG and IMSL mathematical libraries. These are now trademarks without an advertised expansion. For that matter, does SAGE still have an advertised expansion? However, LISA is still expanded on the LISA 2004 home page: http://www.usenix.org/events/lisa04/ "LISA '04 - 18th Large Installation System Administration Conference" It's never been clear what "Large" meant - a large number of systems or one large system - but that doesn't seem to matter. I'm happy with LISA as a name. - Jerry Berkman, UC Berkeley On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Mark C. Langston wrote: > On Thu, Jun 17, 2004 at 07:35:43AM -0700, richard childers / kg6hac wrote: > > Another thing to think about is the exclusivity implies by the acronum > > 'LISA'. > > > > > It's my understanding that the expansion of the acronym fell by > the wayside some time ago, and that "LISA" is no longer expanded. > At least, that was what I've been given to understand by the > USENIX folks I've talked to. > > As BayLISA's inspired by that conference, both in name and content, > I see no reason why we couldn't just drop the expansion and keep > the name. After all, it's got a certain cachet. > > -- > Mark C. Langston Sr. Unix SysAdmin > mark at bitshift.org mark at seti.org > Systems & Network Admin SETI Institute > http://bitshift.org http://www.seti.org > From holland at guidancetech.com Thu Jun 17 13:32:22 2004 From: holland at guidancetech.com (Rich Holland) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 16:32:22 -0400 Subject: Imminent Death of BayLISA / July Board Meeting Invitation In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1087336644@216-127-207-36.strgbay.dcwis.com> Message-ID: <20040617203326.B830D13948D@puzzle.pobox.com> Jim Hickstein wrote: > Concur. All that about electronic media is, if not wrong, at least not to > the point here. I went to BayLISA meetings to get _away_ from my computer > for a few hours. As a former regular attendee who's moved away and started consulting, I'd love to be able to download the meetings in any digital format (VCD images, MPG/AVI files or streams, etc) to watch in my spare time. They used to be broadcast on the MBONE, but as a consultant I don't get much say in whether or not it's allowed through the firewall, so I haven't seen a meeting in about 7 years... Obviously I don't pay the $35 fee anymore, but I'd be willing to pay it if I knew I could download the meetings and presentations. A few guys like me would surely pay for the resources to serve the content I'd think. Bittorrent might be a good distribution mechanism.... Rich From holland at guidancetech.com Thu Jun 17 13:32:22 2004 From: holland at guidancetech.com (Rich Holland) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 16:32:22 -0400 Subject: AIX question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040617203325.BEC91139469@puzzle.pobox.com> Jennifer Davis wrote: > [...]anyone know how > to boot AIX into single user mode over a serial console? (No IBM keyboard > available, and no key on the front to change to single user mode..) Not sure what release you're at, but my boxes all take #@reb@# as a reboot signal. The system will respond with a '>' prompt. If you want to reboot, enter a '1' and press ; any other response cancels the reboot signal. The console has to be configured to accept a reboot string though. You can do this via: # pdisable # chdev -P -l tty0 -a reboot_enable=reboot # penable /dev/console This is for AIX 5.x, YMMV. We use conserver over the serial ports and have the default break (^Ec-l1) mapped to this reboot string. If you can get shell access, 'init s' will work, but you asked specifically about serial consoles.... Rich -- Rich Holland (913) 645-1950 SAP Technical Consultant print unpack("u","92G5S\=\"!A;F]T:&5R(\'!E BayISSA Message-ID: <982A2933712F3740921D842654ED470D06D2E365@emss01m12.us.lmco.com> There is a problem with BayISSA. Suggest another set of letter. See www.issa.org or www.sv-issa.org (and you all are all welcome to the Silicon Valley ISSA meetings). Thank you Greg Edwards CISSP, GCIH -----Original Message----- From: owner-baylisa at baylisa.org [mailto:owner-baylisa at baylisa.org]On Behalf Of richard childers / kg6hac Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 7:36 AM To: baylisa Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA Another thing to think about is the exclusivity implies by the acronum 'LISA'. Who defines what's 'Large'? The arrays of 500 MB hard drives I managed in 1986 - each one over a hundred pounds in weight, and requiring two strong men to lift, and a third to align with sliding rack supports - why, their data could fit into a laptop now. The same laptop contains more computing power than an entire room full of servers, 'way back when. But no one would seriously suggest that managing a small stack of laptops is equivalent to managing a half a dozen server rooms. No, although the complexity within the server is an important metric of the capacity of the administrator, it is the potential interconnections with other islands of complexity which elicit another level of complexity; and it is that complexity which we administer. Not the servers, but their relationships, across networks. (I could fill fifteen minutes, easily, with a small talk on objectively measuring the entropy of a given network, using procedures which generate numbers which will garner respect in the board room; but I digress.) And yet, within the acronym LISA, I see no room for network administrators, or network service administrators ... or database administrators, for that matter. Obviously these groups have their own SIGs; and yet, administration of servers and their services is closely linked to authentication mechanisms, which are increasingly distributed and must be seen in their proper context - which is that they are simply another service, and that database administrators are, fundamentally, providers of a service that is server-based nd network-delivered, and for that reason, they can best be regarded as network service administrators, like the rest of us. (Indeed, the market itself is saying as much. How many ads do you see for someone to administer their Linux servers, Windows clients, Mac clients, database, do a little SQL, administer their firewall, maintain their router, and maybe tap-dance, too? The boundaries that exist in the IT marketplace are largely a result of organizational, and consequently, budgetary, boundaries, which the current economic slump has erased - they do not reflect the actual problems [which span from the desktops, across the networks, to the servers] or the capacities of the individuals whose job it is to troubleshoot them.) The acronym 'LISA' is dated for another reason; it alludes to a period when big iron was predominant. This is no longer the case. Distributed computing is increasingly a player in scientific communities - and by that term I include hackers, of course. Wireless connectivity isn't just over the horizon, it's here, and the speed is increasing every year. Using a volt-ohm-meter remains an important skill - but so does orienting an antenna for maximum gain. Sure, you'll still find pockets of concentrated computing capacity, but nowadays, with a gHz laptop in almost every house, the mean mHz of computing power per square acre of urban landscape has taken a big step upwards. I'd like to propose disbanding BayLISA, and creating BayISSA - 'ISSA' as referring to 'Information Systems & Services Administrators', which comprises network administrators, network services administrators, and server administrators, without drawing any boundaries which exclude. Regards, -- richard -- Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services 945 Taraval Street, #105 San Francisco, CA 94116 USA [011.]1.415.759.5571 http://www.daemonized.com -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) mQGiBECGpfsRBACoPJJfIIrWAqjlW92TtYCtY//e7OW8alWylr/1ygtSQzjCCdvC Ysa0fCcx01UenlWV+5YY/zC7KPsX2rQUKAs20fqs9et74dmgMGOj0vMjTzWEs29G FyAsIRSpFioa8zzrjXEUVnU6OFaD9a9eaC+LSTCiKgXjbQySDKM5T1c+vwCg8W3Y RZ83LRIUULGMPlY6zS4fQwUEAIIiTHDdWpbE+HeREJwH+4eDpGVf76XtNlOMXrt9 tJ3ExL+9ezLulg1nCrOYodOB7TEZqzV40R7emDZSX0hI9QEBCv6nW5aDVpw/bf+q UEHwxrUvE2LBi35hoqR2QwqNlagOauSorWj8Qm/31luxJVeLVy1A1czp6B/mvG1T co03A/9a5kzEAebJ5TzWXQC2/4gu/osXQnrw9B9FFpYOtLc0MNQuAFt8VLn5yO5Q 8T58w+FQvFI5FqzI5URmjQeEyWWuyIechknk4RnwIO1UPVjgRTuNgf9/TvNNfqpa aVlbNp+AG21D6VqsFN2zJFFJeUqiYdXw6i+ESL3SZRymIhwYWrQ8UmljaGFyZCBB IENoaWxkZXJzICh3d3cuZGFlbW9uaXplZC5jb20pIDxmc2NrZWRAcGFjYmVsbC5u ZXQ+iF4EExECAB4FAkCGpfsCGwMGCwkIBwMCAxUCAwMWAgECHgECF4AACgkQjGqW TlNTP66KzQCgjf0SQbiK1rgu7hRsmLPSSaGF7X8AoL7Qw/E9kTZr0fntP0XXEnk/ q6nRuQINBECGpvkQCADFzFq+kYbk+KTIhcVBTjTWDbBnjGgmuGR3LGp9hOd6W9SJ i4GD5184ZnMbEgvDZcDEGDNgMcU+f1girwYI2v/o7QA7VQ5bpUbnfOBytzO+bvd7 uCOyJltg8AG5MFLxfhAMHofpNxGlFTEXdVp4M9xyBB+hdLHbJNJqkMGPf+iCUf1W Q86KncU2AK4Sf9I+WYBZwkjaIhi9dQzeEX1c0Um6LxXSBtkjZprIk1M13gVaIJ6E dDN6hrSMbXZL+7yURw38vHXCtRJAKEOyW178rI8MzJzvVNhobvC62uEWD9Idz8sH 5A06fqb2fKJYLQ1keGUpb/qpny7oTmAe0Hx9jOM7AAMGCACdTe1M4U++/7/OVGip 1gnWEtMhHeQQbS7KPh1w8/1kvs5Mml6uGYQI44lKTDP7OHJQ9hIT/+5tfKPHIPhU M/7Mqa8y81c/AK+WUOyY9+uZ0zUxFGMqeU9z5iqJFWSi9QR/f5q/khfmqi5RFVyQ nnVhxBMB8pY1vZHV1CoL7NLK4c/N8mpwCiZ57LTsP8pLfDMWF/OopmM2ulzlfWTr anAdxQohenq/zTgSySX/VGZYSYvyAoXTRuU4USAVGWcUQPnVooA1N7lZP3pawjNP QMSukx9jI1673BPsPXxyQZ1PmmPt9eHKI0G0hNJG+FCmSRLNT/R7hqTzTUmpgMWM yyWPiEkEGBECAAkFAkCGpvkCGwwACgkQjGqWTlNTP642KACeITHq0b42P3oMX7Nj F5U3EaqCgYoAn3HxUB7ELB6vMUugW4aSmZpBJOR6 =ZaJO -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From holland at guidancetech.com Thu Jun 17 14:17:18 2004 From: holland at guidancetech.com (Rich Holland) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 17:17:18 -0400 Subject: AIX question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040617211822.9E835139423@puzzle.pobox.com> Jennifer Davis wrote: > The box is in Atlanta. The SE is claiming the serial console isn't giving > him an option to go to single user mode. From my understanding he should > see a menu whether he is on a serial console, or attached with monitor and > IBM keyboard. I have barely touched AIX, so I'm asking in the hope that > someone with many years of AIX experience can pipe up and say "Yes he > should be able to see this menu and press 5 to get to single user > boot from the serial console". Oh, I thought you wanted to reboot the running system you just couldn't access over the 'net via telnet/ssh (which I addressed in a previous message). Push the orange reset button on the front of the box and watch the serial console. IBM calls single user mode "service" mode; every hardware device has it's own quirks for getting there. On the older boxes you had to turn a key and press the reset button. Newer ones you can just reboot and hit the key while it's booting. For the newer pSeries hardware, if you don't have an HMC attached (the spiffy graphical console), the firmware searches the serial ports for the console. You can specify a specific serial port as the console by sending data after "0K" displays on the LED panel but before the POST sequence starts. Once the console is selected, watch the serial console and when you see the POST you hit the key to start the service mode boot. A '5' will use the stored bootlist (default is floppy, CD, hard disk, tape, network -- but this can be changed via the 'bootlist' command). If memory serves, you want to hit it when you see the hardware detection (e.g. keyboard, etc) BEFORE the last piece of hardware is found (I think it's "speaker" on mine, but it's been at least 6 months since I've rebooted one of these things in service mode... Email me off list if you want any of the pSeries service manuals and I'll send you the PDF's. They're immensely useful for this sort of thing. ;-) Rich -- Rich Holland (913) 645-1950 SAP Technical Consultant print unpack("u","92G5S\=\"!A;F]T:&5R(\'!E BayISSA Message-ID: <982A2933712F3740921D842654ED470D06D2E365@emss01m12.us.lmco.com> There is a problem with BayISSA. Suggest another set of letter. See www.issa.org or www.sv-issa.org (and you all are all welcome to the Silicon Valley ISSA meetings). Thank you Greg Edwards CISSP, GCIH -----Original Message----- From: owner-baylisa at baylisa.org [mailto:owner-baylisa at baylisa.org]On Behalf Of richard childers / kg6hac Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 7:36 AM To: baylisa Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA Another thing to think about is the exclusivity implies by the acronum 'LISA'. Who defines what's 'Large'? The arrays of 500 MB hard drives I managed in 1986 - each one over a hundred pounds in weight, and requiring two strong men to lift, and a third to align with sliding rack supports - why, their data could fit into a laptop now. The same laptop contains more computing power than an entire room full of servers, 'way back when. But no one would seriously suggest that managing a small stack of laptops is equivalent to managing a half a dozen server rooms. No, although the complexity within the server is an important metric of the capacity of the administrator, it is the potential interconnections with other islands of complexity which elicit another level of complexity; and it is that complexity which we administer. Not the servers, but their relationships, across networks. (I could fill fifteen minutes, easily, with a small talk on objectively measuring the entropy of a given network, using procedures which generate numbers which will garner respect in the board room; but I digress.) And yet, within the acronym LISA, I see no room for network administrators, or network service administrators ... or database administrators, for that matter. Obviously these groups have their own SIGs; and yet, administration of servers and their services is closely linked to authentication mechanisms, which are increasingly distributed and must be seen in their proper context - which is that they are simply another service, and that database administrators are, fundamentally, providers of a service that is server-based nd network-delivered, and for that reason, they can best be regarded as network service administrators, like the rest of us. (Indeed, the market itself is saying as much. How many ads do you see for someone to administer their Linux servers, Windows clients, Mac clients, database, do a little SQL, administer their firewall, maintain their router, and maybe tap-dance, too? The boundaries that exist in the IT marketplace are largely a result of organizational, and consequently, budgetary, boundaries, which the current economic slump has erased - they do not reflect the actual problems [which span from the desktops, across the networks, to the servers] or the capacities of the individuals whose job it is to troubleshoot them.) The acronym 'LISA' is dated for another reason; it alludes to a period when big iron was predominant. This is no longer the case. Distributed computing is increasingly a player in scientific communities - and by that term I include hackers, of course. Wireless connectivity isn't just over the horizon, it's here, and the speed is increasing every year. Using a volt-ohm-meter remains an important skill - but so does orienting an antenna for maximum gain. Sure, you'll still find pockets of concentrated computing capacity, but nowadays, with a gHz laptop in almost every house, the mean mHz of computing power per square acre of urban landscape has taken a big step upwards. I'd like to propose disbanding BayLISA, and creating BayISSA - 'ISSA' as referring to 'Information Systems & Services Administrators', which comprises network administrators, network services administrators, and server administrators, without drawing any boundaries which exclude. Regards, -- richard -- Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services 945 Taraval Street, #105 San Francisco, CA 94116 USA [011.]1.415.759.5571 http://www.daemonized.com -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) mQGiBECGpfsRBACoPJJfIIrWAqjlW92TtYCtY//e7OW8alWylr/1ygtSQzjCCdvC Ysa0fCcx01UenlWV+5YY/zC7KPsX2rQUKAs20fqs9et74dmgMGOj0vMjTzWEs29G FyAsIRSpFioa8zzrjXEUVnU6OFaD9a9eaC+LSTCiKgXjbQySDKM5T1c+vwCg8W3Y RZ83LRIUULGMPlY6zS4fQwUEAIIiTHDdWpbE+HeREJwH+4eDpGVf76XtNlOMXrt9 tJ3ExL+9ezLulg1nCrOYodOB7TEZqzV40R7emDZSX0hI9QEBCv6nW5aDVpw/bf+q UEHwxrUvE2LBi35hoqR2QwqNlagOauSorWj8Qm/31luxJVeLVy1A1czp6B/mvG1T co03A/9a5kzEAebJ5TzWXQC2/4gu/osXQnrw9B9FFpYOtLc0MNQuAFt8VLn5yO5Q 8T58w+FQvFI5FqzI5URmjQeEyWWuyIechknk4RnwIO1UPVjgRTuNgf9/TvNNfqpa aVlbNp+AG21D6VqsFN2zJFFJeUqiYdXw6i+ESL3SZRymIhwYWrQ8UmljaGFyZCBB IENoaWxkZXJzICh3d3cuZGFlbW9uaXplZC5jb20pIDxmc2NrZWRAcGFjYmVsbC5u ZXQ+iF4EExECAB4FAkCGpfsCGwMGCwkIBwMCAxUCAwMWAgECHgECF4AACgkQjGqW TlNTP66KzQCgjf0SQbiK1rgu7hRsmLPSSaGF7X8AoL7Qw/E9kTZr0fntP0XXEnk/ q6nRuQINBECGpvkQCADFzFq+kYbk+KTIhcVBTjTWDbBnjGgmuGR3LGp9hOd6W9SJ i4GD5184ZnMbEgvDZcDEGDNgMcU+f1girwYI2v/o7QA7VQ5bpUbnfOBytzO+bvd7 uCOyJltg8AG5MFLxfhAMHofpNxGlFTEXdVp4M9xyBB+hdLHbJNJqkMGPf+iCUf1W Q86KncU2AK4Sf9I+WYBZwkjaIhi9dQzeEX1c0Um6LxXSBtkjZprIk1M13gVaIJ6E dDN6hrSMbXZL+7yURw38vHXCtRJAKEOyW178rI8MzJzvVNhobvC62uEWD9Idz8sH 5A06fqb2fKJYLQ1keGUpb/qpny7oTmAe0Hx9jOM7AAMGCACdTe1M4U++/7/OVGip 1gnWEtMhHeQQbS7KPh1w8/1kvs5Mml6uGYQI44lKTDP7OHJQ9hIT/+5tfKPHIPhU M/7Mqa8y81c/AK+WUOyY9+uZ0zUxFGMqeU9z5iqJFWSi9QR/f5q/khfmqi5RFVyQ nnVhxBMB8pY1vZHV1CoL7NLK4c/N8mpwCiZ57LTsP8pLfDMWF/OopmM2ulzlfWTr anAdxQohenq/zTgSySX/VGZYSYvyAoXTRuU4USAVGWcUQPnVooA1N7lZP3pawjNP QMSukx9jI1673BPsPXxyQZ1PmmPt9eHKI0G0hNJG+FCmSRLNT/R7hqTzTUmpgMWM yyWPiEkEGBECAAkFAkCGpvkCGwwACgkQjGqWTlNTP642KACeITHq0b42P3oMX7Nj F5U3EaqCgYoAn3HxUB7ELB6vMUugW4aSmZpBJOR6 =ZaJO -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From mark at bitshift.org Thu Jun 17 17:40:23 2004 From: mark at bitshift.org (Mark C. Langston) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 17:40:23 -0700 Subject: Annoying email dupes: analysis Message-ID: <20040618004023.GA24607@bitshift.org> Checking the relevant Received: headers on our pet mail loop, we see: Received: (from majordom at localhost) by www.baylisa.org (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) id i5I0RUDu005915 for baylisa-outgoing; Thu, 17 Jun 2004 17:27:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgw2a.lmco.com (mailgw2a.lmco.com [192.91.147.7]) by www.baylisa.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i5I0PP8w005910 for ; Thu, 17 Jun 2004 17:25:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emss01g01.ems.lmco.com (relay1.ems.lmco.com [129.197.181.54]) by mailgw2a.lmco.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i5HGdBcU028530; Thu, 17 Jun 2004 12:39:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.lmco.com by lmco.com (PMDF V6.1-1X6 #30875) id +<0HZG00701OXBIR at lmco.com>; Thu, 17 Jun 2004 09:39:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EMSS01I00.us.lmco.com ([129.197.181.70]) by lmco.com (PMDF +V6.1-1X6 #30875) with ESMTP id <0HZG005INOXA69 at lmco.com>; Thu, 17 Jun 2004 09:39:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EMSS01M12.us.lmco.com ([129.197.181.76]) by EMSS01I00.us.lmco.com +with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Thu, 17 Jun 2004 09:39:11 -0700 It would appear the culprit is mailgw2a.lmco.com. Could our friendly neighborhood David temporarily reject mail from this MX unitl they can get their act together? -- Mark C. Langston Sr. Unix SysAdmin mark at bitshift.org mark at seti.org Systems & Network Admin SETI Institute http://bitshift.org http://www.seti.org From greg.edwards at lmco.com Thu Jun 17 09:39:10 2004 From: greg.edwards at lmco.com (Edwards, Greg) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 09:39:10 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA Message-ID: <982A2933712F3740921D842654ED470D06D2E365@emss01m12.us.lmco.com> There is a problem with BayISSA. Suggest another set of letter. See www.issa.org or www.sv-issa.org (and you all are all welcome to the Silicon Valley ISSA meetings). Thank you Greg Edwards CISSP, GCIH -----Original Message----- From: owner-baylisa at baylisa.org [mailto:owner-baylisa at baylisa.org]On Behalf Of richard childers / kg6hac Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 7:36 AM To: baylisa Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA Another thing to think about is the exclusivity implies by the acronum 'LISA'. Who defines what's 'Large'? The arrays of 500 MB hard drives I managed in 1986 - each one over a hundred pounds in weight, and requiring two strong men to lift, and a third to align with sliding rack supports - why, their data could fit into a laptop now. The same laptop contains more computing power than an entire room full of servers, 'way back when. But no one would seriously suggest that managing a small stack of laptops is equivalent to managing a half a dozen server rooms. No, although the complexity within the server is an important metric of the capacity of the administrator, it is the potential interconnections with other islands of complexity which elicit another level of complexity; and it is that complexity which we administer. Not the servers, but their relationships, across networks. (I could fill fifteen minutes, easily, with a small talk on objectively measuring the entropy of a given network, using procedures which generate numbers which will garner respect in the board room; but I digress.) And yet, within the acronym LISA, I see no room for network administrators, or network service administrators ... or database administrators, for that matter. Obviously these groups have their own SIGs; and yet, administration of servers and their services is closely linked to authentication mechanisms, which are increasingly distributed and must be seen in their proper context - which is that they are simply another service, and that database administrators are, fundamentally, providers of a service that is server-based nd network-delivered, and for that reason, they can best be regarded as network service administrators, like the rest of us. (Indeed, the market itself is saying as much. How many ads do you see for someone to administer their Linux servers, Windows clients, Mac clients, database, do a little SQL, administer their firewall, maintain their router, and maybe tap-dance, too? The boundaries that exist in the IT marketplace are largely a result of organizational, and consequently, budgetary, boundaries, which the current economic slump has erased - they do not reflect the actual problems [which span from the desktops, across the networks, to the servers] or the capacities of the individuals whose job it is to troubleshoot them.) The acronym 'LISA' is dated for another reason; it alludes to a period when big iron was predominant. This is no longer the case. Distributed computing is increasingly a player in scientific communities - and by that term I include hackers, of course. Wireless connectivity isn't just over the horizon, it's here, and the speed is increasing every year. Using a volt-ohm-meter remains an important skill - but so does orienting an antenna for maximum gain. Sure, you'll still find pockets of concentrated computing capacity, but nowadays, with a gHz laptop in almost every house, the mean mHz of computing power per square acre of urban landscape has taken a big step upwards. I'd like to propose disbanding BayLISA, and creating BayISSA - 'ISSA' as referring to 'Information Systems & Services Administrators', which comprises network administrators, network services administrators, and server administrators, without drawing any boundaries which exclude. Regards, -- richard -- Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services 945 Taraval Street, #105 San Francisco, CA 94116 USA [011.]1.415.759.5571 http://www.daemonized.com -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) mQGiBECGpfsRBACoPJJfIIrWAqjlW92TtYCtY//e7OW8alWylr/1ygtSQzjCCdvC Ysa0fCcx01UenlWV+5YY/zC7KPsX2rQUKAs20fqs9et74dmgMGOj0vMjTzWEs29G FyAsIRSpFioa8zzrjXEUVnU6OFaD9a9eaC+LSTCiKgXjbQySDKM5T1c+vwCg8W3Y RZ83LRIUULGMPlY6zS4fQwUEAIIiTHDdWpbE+HeREJwH+4eDpGVf76XtNlOMXrt9 tJ3ExL+9ezLulg1nCrOYodOB7TEZqzV40R7emDZSX0hI9QEBCv6nW5aDVpw/bf+q UEHwxrUvE2LBi35hoqR2QwqNlagOauSorWj8Qm/31luxJVeLVy1A1czp6B/mvG1T co03A/9a5kzEAebJ5TzWXQC2/4gu/osXQnrw9B9FFpYOtLc0MNQuAFt8VLn5yO5Q 8T58w+FQvFI5FqzI5URmjQeEyWWuyIechknk4RnwIO1UPVjgRTuNgf9/TvNNfqpa aVlbNp+AG21D6VqsFN2zJFFJeUqiYdXw6i+ESL3SZRymIhwYWrQ8UmljaGFyZCBB IENoaWxkZXJzICh3d3cuZGFlbW9uaXplZC5jb20pIDxmc2NrZWRAcGFjYmVsbC5u ZXQ+iF4EExECAB4FAkCGpfsCGwMGCwkIBwMCAxUCAwMWAgECHgECF4AACgkQjGqW TlNTP66KzQCgjf0SQbiK1rgu7hRsmLPSSaGF7X8AoL7Qw/E9kTZr0fntP0XXEnk/ q6nRuQINBECGpvkQCADFzFq+kYbk+KTIhcVBTjTWDbBnjGgmuGR3LGp9hOd6W9SJ i4GD5184ZnMbEgvDZcDEGDNgMcU+f1girwYI2v/o7QA7VQ5bpUbnfOBytzO+bvd7 uCOyJltg8AG5MFLxfhAMHofpNxGlFTEXdVp4M9xyBB+hdLHbJNJqkMGPf+iCUf1W Q86KncU2AK4Sf9I+WYBZwkjaIhi9dQzeEX1c0Um6LxXSBtkjZprIk1M13gVaIJ6E dDN6hrSMbXZL+7yURw38vHXCtRJAKEOyW178rI8MzJzvVNhobvC62uEWD9Idz8sH 5A06fqb2fKJYLQ1keGUpb/qpny7oTmAe0Hx9jOM7AAMGCACdTe1M4U++/7/OVGip 1gnWEtMhHeQQbS7KPh1w8/1kvs5Mml6uGYQI44lKTDP7OHJQ9hIT/+5tfKPHIPhU M/7Mqa8y81c/AK+WUOyY9+uZ0zUxFGMqeU9z5iqJFWSi9QR/f5q/khfmqi5RFVyQ nnVhxBMB8pY1vZHV1CoL7NLK4c/N8mpwCiZ57LTsP8pLfDMWF/OopmM2ulzlfWTr anAdxQohenq/zTgSySX/VGZYSYvyAoXTRuU4USAVGWcUQPnVooA1N7lZP3pawjNP QMSukx9jI1673BPsPXxyQZ1PmmPt9eHKI0G0hNJG+FCmSRLNT/R7hqTzTUmpgMWM yyWPiEkEGBECAAkFAkCGpvkCGwwACgkQjGqWTlNTP642KACeITHq0b42P3oMX7Nj F5U3EaqCgYoAn3HxUB7ELB6vMUugW4aSmZpBJOR6 =ZaJO -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From jxh at jxh.com Thu Jun 17 18:06:38 2004 From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 20:06:38 -0500 Subject: Repeated mail In-Reply-To: <982A2933712F3740921D842654ED470D06D2E365@emss01m12.us.lmco.com> References: <982A2933712F3740921D842654ED470D06D2E365@emss01m12.us.lmco.com> Message-ID: <2147483647.1087502798@216-127-207-67.strgbay.dcwis.com> > There is a problem [...] I'm looking into this. Please stand by. From alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com Thu Jun 17 18:14:52 2004 From: alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com (Alvin Oga) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 18:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: more fun time Re: This is a Flame (used to be: "fun") In-Reply-To: <20040616135935.GM66923@ratchet.nebcorp.com> Message-ID: hi ya danny more fun from an "e" vs an "a" :-) On Wed, 16 Jun 2004, Danny Howard wrote: > On Tue, Jun 15, 2004 at 07:01:57PM -0700, Alvin Oga wrote: ... > > hopefully you're not the "grammer teacher" you're referring to .. > Grammer? I distinctly remember learning from that mistake in my time as > a public school student. i see ... good to remember important lessons :-) and i see its still a sore spot :-) > I'm sorry ... and I'm sorry because I'm flaming on BayLISA, because that > just aint right, but ... c'mon here ... I work in tech support, so I see > my share of inexplicable stupidity, but on BayLISA? A spelling flame > that wrongly "corrects" the already-correct spelling of "grammar?" there was no "wrongly correcting" any spelling and besides, why would i go around correcting people's spellings :-) > That is just too ... whatever it is, it is so much of it that you must > receive a public taunting. Please, if you're going to flame on BayLISA, i've never flamed anybody per se .... geez ... but than again, that would depend on what you consider a "flame" vs defending ones views and opinions or comments or in response to undue attacks > you could at least do some cursory research first. good idea > These are SYSADMINS you are dealing with, good, and i won't comment on your own grammer mistakes :-) ( hilarious to me to see anyway ) > and we do not take kindly to egregious bone-headedness. i see .. back to name calling :-) > And we have dot files ... > > 0-6:57 djh at ratchet ~> grep alvin .spamassassin/user_prefs > blacklist_from alvin@*Linux-Consulting.com purrfect :-) and a gazillion other ways to do the same thing too have fun alvin From fscked at pacbell.net Thu Jun 17 18:19:36 2004 From: fscked at pacbell.net (richard childers / kg6hac) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 18:19:36 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <40D220A6.9010300@virtual.net> References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> <20040615203221.GB5397@starshine.org> <40D09D2F.1070602@virtual.net> <2147483647.1087397560@216-127-207-61.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1AC3F.8050405@pacbell.net> <2147483647.1087473108@216-127-207-67.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1D23B.6080200@pacbell.net> <40D220A6.9010300@virtual.net> Message-ID: <40D24328.5040900@pacbell.net> Ooh, I didn't realize that whiny complaint had gone out to the whole crew. Permit me to reply in kind. > This is very impressive but totally lacking in specifics. > > Maybe if your little group hadn't ganged up on me, when I tried to > articulate to -my- peer group the events that had occurred at Oracle, > we wouldn't have this confrontational relationship. After all, whose > peer group is it, anyway? > > But you did. You folks censored my communications on the topic. You > will have to live with that. And, you know, in the long run, it didn't > do a damned bit of good. The story's out. ... So, who were you trying > to help? > > If a single barbarian at the gates is enough to bring your whole > scheme to ruin, well, it wasn't a very good scheme, now was it. > > The fact is that despite all your claims of running an open > organization, you can only run it successfully, if it is carefully > insulated from criticism ... because there are no good answers, once > the questions start being asked. > > Methinks the search for a scapegoat has begun ... but the fact is that > BayLISA hasn't added any value to my life, recently. It's just a > cesspool for self-promotion. The notices go out late, the leaders are > pompous and full of their own self-importance, and, when the facade > falls away, there's not much behind it. > > If you want people to invest emotionally in your group, then your > group has to return the favor. I've been treated like a pariah. You > expect me to cushion my comments? I'd suggest you pick sides more > carefullly, next time. Regards, -- richard Strata R Chalup wrote: > It's also no secret that your confrontational style has been for > several years now the single largest point source of complaints > reaching me personally about BayLISA's mailing lists. > > As a BayLISA Board member, I must stress that as a California > registered 501(3)c, BayLISA welcomes participation from anyone > and everyone, as indeed it is required by law to do. > > As an individual, rather than a Board member, I heartily wish, sir, > that you would simply go away. If your interaction style on this > mailing list is a sample of your technical or management prowess, > I am distinctly unimpressed. > > Strata Chalup, KF6NBZ > > richard childers / kg6hac wrote: > >> It's no secret that LISA is top-heavy with management who are long on >> politics and short on sharing their (frequently alluded to, but >> rarely displayed) expertise; it's time for a change. >> >> >> Regards, >> >> -- richard > > > -- Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services 945 Taraval Street, #105 San Francisco, CA 94116 USA [011.]1.415.759.5571 http://www.daemonized.com -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) mQGiBECGpfsRBACoPJJfIIrWAqjlW92TtYCtY//e7OW8alWylr/1ygtSQzjCCdvC Ysa0fCcx01UenlWV+5YY/zC7KPsX2rQUKAs20fqs9et74dmgMGOj0vMjTzWEs29G FyAsIRSpFioa8zzrjXEUVnU6OFaD9a9eaC+LSTCiKgXjbQySDKM5T1c+vwCg8W3Y RZ83LRIUULGMPlY6zS4fQwUEAIIiTHDdWpbE+HeREJwH+4eDpGVf76XtNlOMXrt9 tJ3ExL+9ezLulg1nCrOYodOB7TEZqzV40R7emDZSX0hI9QEBCv6nW5aDVpw/bf+q UEHwxrUvE2LBi35hoqR2QwqNlagOauSorWj8Qm/31luxJVeLVy1A1czp6B/mvG1T co03A/9a5kzEAebJ5TzWXQC2/4gu/osXQnrw9B9FFpYOtLc0MNQuAFt8VLn5yO5Q 8T58w+FQvFI5FqzI5URmjQeEyWWuyIechknk4RnwIO1UPVjgRTuNgf9/TvNNfqpa aVlbNp+AG21D6VqsFN2zJFFJeUqiYdXw6i+ESL3SZRymIhwYWrQ8UmljaGFyZCBB IENoaWxkZXJzICh3d3cuZGFlbW9uaXplZC5jb20pIDxmc2NrZWRAcGFjYmVsbC5u ZXQ+iF4EExECAB4FAkCGpfsCGwMGCwkIBwMCAxUCAwMWAgECHgECF4AACgkQjGqW TlNTP66KzQCgjf0SQbiK1rgu7hRsmLPSSaGF7X8AoL7Qw/E9kTZr0fntP0XXEnk/ q6nRuQINBECGpvkQCADFzFq+kYbk+KTIhcVBTjTWDbBnjGgmuGR3LGp9hOd6W9SJ i4GD5184ZnMbEgvDZcDEGDNgMcU+f1girwYI2v/o7QA7VQ5bpUbnfOBytzO+bvd7 uCOyJltg8AG5MFLxfhAMHofpNxGlFTEXdVp4M9xyBB+hdLHbJNJqkMGPf+iCUf1W Q86KncU2AK4Sf9I+WYBZwkjaIhi9dQzeEX1c0Um6LxXSBtkjZprIk1M13gVaIJ6E dDN6hrSMbXZL+7yURw38vHXCtRJAKEOyW178rI8MzJzvVNhobvC62uEWD9Idz8sH 5A06fqb2fKJYLQ1keGUpb/qpny7oTmAe0Hx9jOM7AAMGCACdTe1M4U++/7/OVGip 1gnWEtMhHeQQbS7KPh1w8/1kvs5Mml6uGYQI44lKTDP7OHJQ9hIT/+5tfKPHIPhU M/7Mqa8y81c/AK+WUOyY9+uZ0zUxFGMqeU9z5iqJFWSi9QR/f5q/khfmqi5RFVyQ nnVhxBMB8pY1vZHV1CoL7NLK4c/N8mpwCiZ57LTsP8pLfDMWF/OopmM2ulzlfWTr anAdxQohenq/zTgSySX/VGZYSYvyAoXTRuU4USAVGWcUQPnVooA1N7lZP3pawjNP QMSukx9jI1673BPsPXxyQZ1PmmPt9eHKI0G0hNJG+FCmSRLNT/R7hqTzTUmpgMWM yyWPiEkEGBECAAkFAkCGpvkCGwwACgkQjGqWTlNTP642KACeITHq0b42P3oMX7Nj F5U3EaqCgYoAn3HxUB7ELB6vMUugW4aSmZpBJOR6 =ZaJO -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From fscked at pacbell.net Thu Jun 17 18:25:24 2004 From: fscked at pacbell.net (richard childers / kg6hac) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 18:25:24 -0700 Subject: BayISSSA, or BayIS3A, or BayI3SA? Message-ID: <40D24484.4040905@pacbell.net> 'ISSSA' stands for 'Information, Systems, Services & Security Administrators' Too long? How about IS3A? Or I3SA? Regards, -- richard -- Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services 945 Taraval Street, #105 San Francisco, CA 94116 USA [011.]1.415.759.5571 http://www.daemonized.com -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) mQGiBECGpfsRBACoPJJfIIrWAqjlW92TtYCtY//e7OW8alWylr/1ygtSQzjCCdvC Ysa0fCcx01UenlWV+5YY/zC7KPsX2rQUKAs20fqs9et74dmgMGOj0vMjTzWEs29G FyAsIRSpFioa8zzrjXEUVnU6OFaD9a9eaC+LSTCiKgXjbQySDKM5T1c+vwCg8W3Y RZ83LRIUULGMPlY6zS4fQwUEAIIiTHDdWpbE+HeREJwH+4eDpGVf76XtNlOMXrt9 tJ3ExL+9ezLulg1nCrOYodOB7TEZqzV40R7emDZSX0hI9QEBCv6nW5aDVpw/bf+q UEHwxrUvE2LBi35hoqR2QwqNlagOauSorWj8Qm/31luxJVeLVy1A1czp6B/mvG1T co03A/9a5kzEAebJ5TzWXQC2/4gu/osXQnrw9B9FFpYOtLc0MNQuAFt8VLn5yO5Q 8T58w+FQvFI5FqzI5URmjQeEyWWuyIechknk4RnwIO1UPVjgRTuNgf9/TvNNfqpa aVlbNp+AG21D6VqsFN2zJFFJeUqiYdXw6i+ESL3SZRymIhwYWrQ8UmljaGFyZCBB IENoaWxkZXJzICh3d3cuZGFlbW9uaXplZC5jb20pIDxmc2NrZWRAcGFjYmVsbC5u ZXQ+iF4EExECAB4FAkCGpfsCGwMGCwkIBwMCAxUCAwMWAgECHgECF4AACgkQjGqW TlNTP66KzQCgjf0SQbiK1rgu7hRsmLPSSaGF7X8AoL7Qw/E9kTZr0fntP0XXEnk/ q6nRuQINBECGpvkQCADFzFq+kYbk+KTIhcVBTjTWDbBnjGgmuGR3LGp9hOd6W9SJ i4GD5184ZnMbEgvDZcDEGDNgMcU+f1girwYI2v/o7QA7VQ5bpUbnfOBytzO+bvd7 uCOyJltg8AG5MFLxfhAMHofpNxGlFTEXdVp4M9xyBB+hdLHbJNJqkMGPf+iCUf1W Q86KncU2AK4Sf9I+WYBZwkjaIhi9dQzeEX1c0Um6LxXSBtkjZprIk1M13gVaIJ6E dDN6hrSMbXZL+7yURw38vHXCtRJAKEOyW178rI8MzJzvVNhobvC62uEWD9Idz8sH 5A06fqb2fKJYLQ1keGUpb/qpny7oTmAe0Hx9jOM7AAMGCACdTe1M4U++/7/OVGip 1gnWEtMhHeQQbS7KPh1w8/1kvs5Mml6uGYQI44lKTDP7OHJQ9hIT/+5tfKPHIPhU M/7Mqa8y81c/AK+WUOyY9+uZ0zUxFGMqeU9z5iqJFWSi9QR/f5q/khfmqi5RFVyQ nnVhxBMB8pY1vZHV1CoL7NLK4c/N8mpwCiZ57LTsP8pLfDMWF/OopmM2ulzlfWTr anAdxQohenq/zTgSySX/VGZYSYvyAoXTRuU4USAVGWcUQPnVooA1N7lZP3pawjNP QMSukx9jI1673BPsPXxyQZ1PmmPt9eHKI0G0hNJG+FCmSRLNT/R7hqTzTUmpgMWM yyWPiEkEGBECAAkFAkCGpvkCGwwACgkQjGqWTlNTP642KACeITHq0b42P3oMX7Nj F5U3EaqCgYoAn3HxUB7ELB6vMUugW4aSmZpBJOR6 =ZaJO -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From gwen at reptiles.org Thu Jun 17 20:17:36 2004 From: gwen at reptiles.org (Gwendolynn ferch Elydyr) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 23:17:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <40D24328.5040900@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20040617231639.C1223-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, richard childers / kg6hac wrote: > > If you want people to invest emotionally in your group, then your > > group has to return the favor. I've been treated like a pariah. You > > expect me to cushion my comments? I'd suggest you pick sides more > > carefullly, next time. One person [namely you, Richard] yelling on a street corner isn't usually considered a "side". They're usually considered something rather different. cheers! ========================================================================== "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now." From rsr at inorganic.org Thu Jun 17 20:19:55 2004 From: rsr at inorganic.org (Roy S. Rapoport) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 20:19:55 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA - same people In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040618031955.GA20861@puppy.inorganic.org> On Thu, Jun 17, 2004 at 02:13:16PM -0700, Alan Horn wrote: > I realised over lunch in the car, was this choice an intentionally bad pun > (Bait-P? Feeding the trolls ?) > > anyway.. just thought I'd share, if it was unintentional, then well done.. > stupendously good coincidence. thank you, thank you, I'll be here all week. Don't forget to tip your waitstaff. -roy From rsr at inorganic.org Thu Jun 17 20:28:30 2004 From: rsr at inorganic.org (Roy S. Rapoport) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 20:28:30 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: References: <20040617182007.GG28708@puppy.inorganic.org> Message-ID: <20040618032830.GE20861@puppy.inorganic.org> On Thu, Jun 17, 2004 at 11:54:16AM -0700, Deirdre Saoirse Moen wrote: > On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Roy S. Rapoport wrote: > > > "The Bay Area's Oldest Organization of people who know what 'LART' means" > > ::snrch:: > > "The Bay Area's Oldest Pimply-Faced Youths." Lamest Independent Single Assholes -roy, LISA :) From ahorn at deorth.org Thu Jun 17 21:59:43 2004 From: ahorn at deorth.org (Alan Horn) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 21:59:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <40D24328.5040900@pacbell.net> References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> <20040615203221.GB5397@starshine.org> <40D09D2F.1070602@virtual.net> <2147483647.1087397560@216-127-207-61.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1AC3F.8050405@pacbell.net> <2147483647.1087473108@216-127-207-67.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1D23B.6080200@pacbell.net> <40D220A6.9010300@virtual.net> <40D24328.5040900@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, richard childers / kg6hac wrote: > Ooh, I didn't realize that whiny complaint had gone out to the whole crew. > > Permit me to reply in kind. > >> Methinks the search for a scapegoat has begun ... but the fact is that >> BayLISA hasn't added any value to my life, recently. It's just a cesspool >> for self-promotion. The notices go out late, the leaders are pompous and >> full of their own self-importance, and, when the facade falls away, there's >> not much behind it. So does this mean you're leaving Richard ? I don't know you, only your words. I'm sure you're a nice guy, but your words on here get very, very tiresome after a while. I guess I could just /dev/null anything from your email address, but before I do lets see if you actually do leave this time. Really, I think thats the best course of action for all concerned. :) Cheers, Al From sigje at sigje.org Thu Jun 17 22:04:52 2004 From: sigje at sigje.org (Jennifer Davis) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 22:04:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Thanks! Message-ID: Many kudos to Heather for a good presentation this evening. I didn't get to meet and greet everyone there, but it seemed like a decent number of people showed up. I'm looking forward to future presentations. Next time I hope to stay for after presentation meet and eats :) For those of you who couldn't make it, the topic was helpdesk automated responder using procmail and the many other uses that a company could benefit reusing this tool. I would have liked more technical depth, but the presentation gave me some ideas about how this kind of tool can be used in other ways. There was some debate about the use of automating responses in today's society, and whether there is benefit. Having been on both sides of the email query, I know that our ticket system benefitted from having some automation in it (I now know some additional tweaks that could be added), but I also know that I hate getting stuck in an automated response loop where it feels like I'll never get a human reply. Heather fielded the questions quite well, and it's obvious she knows the subject matter. For my first BayLISA meeting, I'm happily impressed. I'm planning to join BayLISA as long as the current situation resolves. If any people are needed for volunteer positions, please let me know. I'd volunteer space, but my company doesn't have meeting room space. Also, job relevance. Anyone looking for a technical support manager role? My company is looking for someone to be responsible for providing customer support on the product. Please email me if interested, and I'll give you more details. (A resume wouldn't hurt either.) Comment on the directions on the website: >From 280 Freeway light at Mariami and you should turn left there, right at the first driveway (marked with a blue apple), and park. a Donut Wheel shop to the left.) Now that you've turned around, you can enter the blue-apple marked driveway on your right. lot. at Mariani, which is rather large, and a light; then turn right into the blue-apple driveway. All of these directions instruct people to turn right into the driveway after turning on to Mariani. The actual directions should be turn left on the Infinite Loop. Having both the map and the directions, and the evidence in front of us we knew where to go today, but figured that this should probably be corrected on the website. Thanks again! Jennifer Davis From lanning at lanning.cc Fri Jun 18 00:10:56 2004 From: lanning at lanning.cc (Robert Hajime Lanning) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 00:10:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Thanks! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <35674.192.168.128.13.1087542656.squirrel@192.168.128.13> > All of these directions instruct people to turn right into the driveway > after turning on to Mariani. The actual directions should be turn left on > the Infinite Loop. Having both the map and the directions, and the > evidence in front of us we knew where to go today, but figured that this > should probably be corrected on the website. Good to hear that you enjoyed it. The instructions you are refering to, tell you how to get to the old meeting place. (Apple's De Anza Building 3) They need to be updated to show new location. -- END OF LINE -MCP From lanning at lanning.cc Thu Jun 17 23:44:26 2004 From: lanning at lanning.cc (Robert Hajime Lanning) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 23:44:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <40D24328.5040900@pacbell.net> References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> <20040615203221.GB5397@starshine.org> <40D09D2F.1070602@virtual.net> <2147483647.1087397560@216-127-207-61.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1AC3F.8050405@pacbell.net> <2147483647.1087473108@216-127-207-67.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1D23B.6080200@pacbell.net> <40D220A6.9010300@virtual.net> <40D24328.5040900@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <35561.192.168.128.13.1087541066.squirrel@192.168.128.13> So then, what are you doing here? I still don't see anything better, now that you have said your statement. Are you going to run for office? Are you going to put in the hours needed to help get this organization turned around? No-one is being paid to do this. I personaly do not care how BayLISA has gotten into this rut. (Infact, everyone is having this shrinking membership problem. SVLUG, BayLISA, SAGE...) I care how we are going to get out of it, and provide some resource for Bay Area SAs at large. > Ooh, I didn't realize that whiny complaint had gone out to the whole crew. > > Permit me to reply in kind. -- END OF LINE -MCP From jxh at jxh.com Fri Jun 18 08:47:50 2004 From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 10:47:50 -0500 Subject: Thanks! In-Reply-To: <35674.192.168.128.13.1087542656.squirrel@192.168.128.13> References: <35674.192.168.128.13.1087542656.squirrel@192.168.128.13> Message-ID: <1423233917.1087555670@216-127-207-78.strgbay.dcwis.com> > The instructions you are referring to, tell you how to get to the old > meeting place. (Apple's De Anza Building 3) > > They need to be updated to show new location. This is where opening up the TWiki to members would come in, btw. First person to notice the error can just nail it. Any takers on overhauling the membership database and authentication mechanism? Where's a developer when you need one? :-) From jxh at jxh.com Fri Jun 18 08:46:01 2004 From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 10:46:01 -0500 Subject: Thanks! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1314249139.1087555561@216-127-207-78.strgbay.dcwis.com> > Many kudos to Heather for a good presentation this evening. I didn't get > to meet and greet everyone there, but it seemed like a decent number of > people showed up. I'm looking forward to future presentations. Next > time I hope to stay for after presentation meet and eats :) Great! The meetings will be there. Bring your friends, too! > For those of you who couldn't make it, the topic was helpdesk automated This gives me an idea. Failing video over the MBONE (or something more modern), how about write-ups, like this only with a bit more detail, posted to the list or the web site? SAGE does these (conference reports) in their magazine, and I find them quite valuable. You know: the high points, lessons learned, the take-away message. You can "go" to one of these week-long conferences in about an hour this way (minus the "couch track"). And though we try to post the slides (Heather?), it's the talk that counts. A videotape of a talking head and some slides has remarkably little information content slash density, but a good, written summary concentrates it up to a useful level. Jennifer, would you volunteer to write up the next meeting in that form? I'll see that it gets on the web site in the proper place. See a recent issue of ":login;" (sp?) magazine, from USENIX/SAGE, for an example; or maybe someone can send you a recent text. From sigje at sigje.org Fri Jun 18 09:00:23 2004 From: sigje at sigje.org (Jennifer Davis) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 09:00:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Writing up meetings In-Reply-To: <1314249139.1087555561@216-127-207-78.strgbay.dcwis.com> References: <1314249139.1087555561@216-127-207-78.strgbay.dcwis.com> Message-ID: > Jennifer, would you volunteer to write up the next meeting in that form? I'll > see that it gets on the web site in the proper place. See a recent issue of > ":login;" (sp?) magazine, from USENIX/SAGE, for an example; or maybe someone > can send you a recent text. Sure can :) I'm a member of USENIX and SAGE so I've seen the login; magazine format. Jennifer From david at catwhisker.org Fri Jun 18 10:21:36 2004 From: david at catwhisker.org (David Wolfskill) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 10:21:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Providing feedback to the BayLISA board Message-ID: <200406181721.i5IHLaih023704@bunrab.catwhisker.org> I happened to chat a bit with someone after the meeting last night who expressed interest in helping out and -- in particular -- helping to ensure that BayLISA remains viable; I was, of course, pleased to be able encourage this. In the course of conversation, I suggested that he might want to join the blw at baylisa.org list, and also pointed out that even if he does not, subscribers to the baylisa at baylsia.org list are permitted to post to blw@ -- the idea being that BayLISA members should be able to communicate with the Board. (Leaving aside the matters that: * BayLISA membership is not required to subscribe to the list. * There is no list such that subscription to it is automatic with BayLISA membership. * There is no real requirement that a Board member subscribe to (or read, if subscribed) blw at baylisa.org. * Many folks who are not current Board members subscribe to blw at . ) Anyway: in case any ${lurker}@baylisa.org had some ideas to send to blw@, the point of all this is to keep those cards & letters coming! Just please make their contents relevant to BayLISA. :-} Peace, david (current hat: postmaster at baylsia.org) -- David H. Wolfskill david at catwhisker.org I do not "unsubscribe" from email "services" to which I have not explicitly subscribed. Rather, I block spammers' access to SMTP servers I control, and encourage others who are in a position to do so to do likewise. From ldevlin at cnet.com Fri Jun 18 10:33:54 2004 From: ldevlin at cnet.com (leslie devlin) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 10:33:54 -0700 Subject: Imminent Death of BayLISA / July Board Meeting Invitation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Location?s a big issue for me too. I live in El Cerrito and work in SF, so going to a meeting not only means bringing my car in to work, but driving back from Cupertino to El Cerrito at 9 or 10 at night, which is a haul. I lurk, and I think, ?These meetings sound neat; I?ll need to go to one someday,? and ?Maybe I?ll join, but I should go to some meetings first or I won?t get much out of it,? and it never goes beyond that because of the distance. Also, it seems like the few employed sysadmins I know are working in SF or further north, and that a large chunk of the job postings are in or near SF too. So maybe location?s a bigger factor than people realize. > From: "Russel J. Witte" > Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:48:49 -0700 > To: "baylisa" > Subject: RE: Imminent Death of BayLISA / July Board Meeting Invitation > > Location has also been an issue for me (live in Alameda and work in SF). > > I could just make it down to Palo Alto with difficulty by 7:30 ... Cupertino > is impossible. > > But I always assumed that the majority of active members were in the Valley, > so I haven't been complaining... now that my presence is missed ... I'm > speaking up. > > Russ > From jxh at jxh.com Fri Jun 18 10:53:31 2004 From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 12:53:31 -0500 Subject: Writing up meetings In-Reply-To: References: <1314249139.1087555561@216-127-207-78.strgbay.dcwis.com> Message-ID: <2147483647.1087563211@216-127-207-78.strgbay.dcwis.com> >> Jennifer, would you volunteer to write up the next meeting in that form? >> I'll see that it gets on the web site in the proper place. See a >> recent issue of ":login;" (sp?) magazine, from USENIX/SAGE, for an >> example; or maybe someone can send you a recent text. > > Sure can :) I'm a member of USENIX and SAGE so I've seen the login; > magazine format. Great! Thanks! I'd go put you in the TWiki page that lists volunteers, but .... *sigh* I'll try to remember to remind you before the next meeting. From chuck+baylisa at snew.com Fri Jun 18 12:17:59 2004 From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:17:59 -0400 Subject: writeups Message-ID: <20040618191759.GA13345@2004.snew.com> Quoting Jim Hickstein (jxh at jxh.com): > >Many kudos to Heather for a good presentation this evening. I didn't get > >to meet and greet everyone there, but it seemed like a decent number of > >people showed up. I'm looking forward to future presentations. Next > >time I hope to stay for after presentation meet and eats :) > > Great! The meetings will be there. Bring your friends, too! > > >For those of you who couldn't make it, the topic was helpdesk automated > > This gives me an idea. Failing video over the MBONE (or something more > modern), how about write-ups, like this only with a bit more detail, posted MBONE *is* more modern. I feel about it like I did when people were all excited about CompuServe mail; "but we have this inter-net thing here..." > to the list or the web site? SAGE does these (conference reports) in their > magazine, and I find them quite valuable. You know: the high points, I wonder I wonder if write-ups can/should be offered to SAGE. As one of the semi-founders of NYSA (new york system admin) - and semi because I didn't hit that FIRST meeting, but helped in them after, I've believed that the "microSAGE" model worked best. LISA (which is a conference, not a group) is fine, but it's annual, a circus, costly and a big time commitment. Having that interest, I've wanted SAGE to take a role where it helps local groups more. One of the easy ways is to enable communication. A challenge all local groups have is in finding topics, speakers and meeting ideas (and space, but that's solvable only locally). Perhaps a write up, perhaps summary/trimmed or in full, of the BayLISA meeting notes might be of value to SAGE and ;login. If it leads to other groups doing the same, then pressure is reduced on all the groups. But also it allows groups to "steal" ideas; that's not harmful in the .org realm. >From a simple: BayLISA meets August 19, see website for more info. June's meeting was on using procmail to... and it covered xxx and www. A more extensive format might continue for 1-5 paragraphs as desired. Is there objection to BayLISA participating in a SAGE publication like this? (presuming SAGE wants). From strata at virtual.net Fri Jun 18 12:25:15 2004 From: strata at virtual.net (Strata R Chalup) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 12:25:15 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <40D24328.5040900@pacbell.net> References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> <20040615203221.GB5397@starshine.org> <40D09D2F.1070602@virtual.net> <2147483647.1087397560@216-127-207-61.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1AC3F.8050405@pacbell.net> <2147483647.1087473108@216-127-207-67.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1D23B.6080200@pacbell.net> <40D220A6.9010300@virtual.net> <40D24328.5040900@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <40D3419B.2060606@virtual.net> Let's do this inline so we can be perfectly clear. richard childers / kg6hac wrote: > Ooh, I didn't realize that whiny complaint had gone out to the whole crew. Yes, since I felt that I owed you the courtesy of a public reply to your public comment. >> ... >> Maybe if your little group hadn't ganged up on me, when I tried to >> articulate to -my- peer group the events that had occurred at Oracle, >> we wouldn't have this confrontational relationship. After all, whose >> peer group is it, anyway? Exactly-- whose peer group is it anyway? You say that you were trying to communicate to your peer group, but that somehow it was our peer group it ganged up on you. This seems contradictory. >> But you did. You folks censored my communications on the topic. You >> will have to live with that. And, you know, in the long run, it didn't >> do a damned bit of good. The story's out. ... So, who were you trying >> to help? It is not 'censorship' if we ask one person to refrain from turning a public forum into his personal platform to attack a previous employer. I think we disagree on matters of definition. Did you ever offer to form a splinter mailing list on which to discuss this subject of non-universal interest? No, and precisely because it would be a splinter list and you would not have your guaranteed audience. It's wonderful that 'the story' is out. It's also wonderful that you have stopped ceaselessly haranguing people with it here. The 'who' we were trying to help is our MEMBERS, who complained that one person was trying to turn a quiet and formerly helpful mailing list into alt.rant.oracle. >> If a single barbarian at the gates is enough to bring your whole >> scheme to ruin, well, it wasn't a very good scheme, now was it. Ah, so the barbarian is justified if enough damage is done? And if the rest of us 'play nice', then it's just our fault. This sounds a lot like "If she didn't dress like that, it wouldn't have happened." Basically what you're saying is that it's ok for you to be an antisocial combative asshole on a group mailing list, and threaten the group with legal action if they try to shut you up or boot you, and that simply exposes the fundamental flaw in the tragedy of the commons and somehow absolves you of personal responsibility for your own behavior. I think you just enjoy coming up with rationalizations why it's 'okay' or even 'good' that you can take out your hostility on other people without having to think of yourself with negative labels. It's a very ordinary thing, but still regrettable. >> The fact is that despite all your claims of running an open >> organization, you can only run it successfully, if it is carefully >> insulated from criticism ... because there are no good answers, once >> the questions start being asked. ^The fact^Richard Childers' opinion I don't see where any criticism of yours has affected BayLISA. Just your aggressive presence on our list communities, which discourages people who don't enjoy flaming from participating. Given that attempts at reasoned discourse with you simply escalate to ad-hominem attacks, and that attempts at silence are responded to with 'ha! you aren't replying, which proves I'm right!', there really aren't any good strategies for the shy except not posting in the first place. >> ... >> >> If you want people to invest emotionally in your group, then your >> group has to return the favor. I've been treated like a pariah. Earlier you said this was the group of your peers, and we were censoring you. Are your peers are treating you like a pariah? If so, maybe you are acting like someone who they don't want to be around. Most of us are pretty easy-going, and don't hold grudges. If you changed your public UI, people would respond differently. >> You >> expect me to cushion my comments? I expect everyone here to behave like an adult professional. You have not been singled out in this regard. >> I'd suggest you pick sides more >> carefullly, next time. I have very carefully picked sides. I am on the side of reasonable, civil public discourse, mentoring the inexperienced, supporting newbies interacting with our community, and giving people the benefit of the doubt. I hope that my actions show these principles at work. People ultimately judge us by a combination of our actions and our words. Think about the impression of yourself that you personally are creating, and ask yourself if you wouldn't prefer to create a different impression. It is possible to be strongly opinionated and still respectful, to be a person of firmly held principles and convictions who makes their views known yet rarely makes anyone else feel ignorant, clumsy, or stupid. Doing this is a great deal of work, and yet some of us find that it is ultimately worth the effort. > Regards, > > -- richard And my regards to you. I think you have valuable things to add to this group, but that the style in which you routinely say them negates the bulk of their value. I hope that you will consider changing your style. If not, I hope that you will find another community to frequent. _Strata -- ======================================================================== Strata Rose Chalup [KF6NBZ] strata "@" virtual.net VirtualNet Consulting http://www.virtual.net/ ** Project Management & Architecture for ISP/ASP Systems Integration ** ========================================================================= From david at catwhisker.org Fri Jun 18 12:31:55 2004 From: david at catwhisker.org (David Wolfskill) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 12:31:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: writeups In-Reply-To: <20040618191759.GA13345@2004.snew.com> Message-ID: <200406181931.i5IJVtZN024376@bunrab.catwhisker.org> >Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:17:59 -0400 >From: Chuck Yerkes >To: baylisa at baylisa.org >Subject: writeups >Sender: owner-baylisa at baylisa.org >MBONE *is* more modern. I feel about it like I did when people >were all excited about CompuServe mail; "but we have this inter-net >thing here..." :-} >> to the list or the web site? SAGE does these (conference reports) in their >> magazine, and I find them quite valuable. You know: the high points, >I wonder >I wonder if write-ups can/should be offered to SAGE. [Reasoning elided; it's in the original message -- dhw] I strongly encourage this. >... >Having that interest, I've wanted SAGE to take a role where it >helps local groups more. One of the easy ways is to enable >communication. Quite so. >Perhaps a write up, perhaps summary/trimmed or in full, of the >BayLISA meeting notes might be of value to SAGE and ;login. Aye. >If it leads to other groups doing the same, then pressure is >reduced on all the groups. But also it allows groups to "steal" >ideas; that's not harmful in the .org realm. I'd think th epressure would be "increased," not "reduced" -- but that could merely be a matter of different perceptions. >Is there objection to BayLISA participating in a SAGE publication >like this? (presuming SAGE wants). Certainly not from me (FWIW in your local currency). Peace, david -- David H. Wolfskill david at catwhisker.org I do not "unsubscribe" from email "services" to which I have not explicitly subscribed. Rather, I block spammers' access to SMTP servers I control, and encourage others who are in a position to do so to do likewise. From strata at virtual.net Fri Jun 18 12:34:11 2004 From: strata at virtual.net (Strata R Chalup) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 12:34:11 -0700 Subject: Thanks! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40D343B3.3060001@virtual.net> Thanks very much for the comments and the writeup-- will tweak the website directions accordingly! BTW, there's a 'baylisa-jobs at baylisa.org' which traditionally has folks who don't always subscribe to the main baylisa at baylisa.org list. You might want to repost the bit about the job opening there. cheers, Strata Jennifer Davis wrote: > > Many kudos to Heather for a good presentation this evening. I didn't > get to meet and greet everyone there, but it seemed like a decent number > of people showed up. I'm looking forward to future presentations. Next > time I hope to stay for after presentation meet and eats :) > > For those of you who couldn't make it, the topic was helpdesk automated > responder using procmail and the many other uses that a company could > benefit reusing this tool. I would have liked more technical depth, but > the presentation gave me some ideas about how this kind of tool can be > used in other ways. There was some debate about the use of automating > responses in today's society, and whether there is benefit. Having been > on both sides of the email query, I know that our ticket system > benefitted from having some automation in it (I now know some additional > tweaks that could be added), but I also know that I hate getting stuck > in an automated response loop where it feels like I'll never get a human > reply. Heather fielded the questions quite well, and it's obvious she > knows the subject matter. > > For my first BayLISA meeting, I'm happily impressed. I'm planning to > join BayLISA as long as the current situation resolves. If any people > are needed for volunteer positions, please let me know. I'd volunteer > space, but my company doesn't have meeting room space. > > Also, job relevance. Anyone looking for a technical support manager > role? My company is looking for someone to be responsible for providing > customer support on the product. Please email me if interested, and > I'll give you more details. (A resume wouldn't hurt either.) > > Comment on the directions on the website: > >> From 280 Freeway > > light at Mariami and you should turn left there, right at the first > driveway (marked with a blue apple), and park. > > a Donut Wheel shop to the left.) Now that you've turned around, you can > enter the blue-apple marked driveway on your right. lot. > > at Mariani, which is rather large, and a light; then turn right into the > blue-apple driveway. > > > > All of these directions instruct people to turn right into the driveway > after turning on to Mariani. The actual directions should be turn left > on the Infinite Loop. Having both the map and the directions, and the > evidence in front of us we knew where to go today, but figured that this > should probably be corrected on the website. > > > Thanks again! > > Jennifer Davis > > > -- ======================================================================== Strata Rose Chalup [KF6NBZ] strata "@" virtual.net VirtualNet Consulting http://www.virtual.net/ ** Project Management & Architecture for ISP/ASP Systems Integration ** ========================================================================= From holland at guidancetech.com Fri Jun 18 13:16:13 2004 From: holland at guidancetech.com (Rich Holland) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 16:16:13 -0400 Subject: writeups In-Reply-To: <20040618191759.GA13345@2004.snew.com> Message-ID: <20040618201714.F10B4139335@puzzle.pobox.com> Chuck Yerkes wrote: > MBONE *is* more modern. I feel about it like I did when people > were all excited about CompuServe mail; "but we have this inter-net > thing here..." Yeah, and it's live and cool and all, but I have 2 problems with it: 1) It's live; it's not something I can download the next day 2) If I don't control the firewall at my client site, I don't get access to the MBONE, typically. So while the MBONE may still be useful and nifty, I'd *still* like to see something downloadable; it shouldn't be hard to run the camera into a splitter, sending one signal to the VHS and another to a video capture card capable of recording an MPEG-4 stream... *THAT* is something I'd pay $35/year for, since I can't show up at meetings anymore. Rich From rick at linuxmafia.com Fri Jun 18 13:20:43 2004 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 13:20:43 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <40D3419B.2060606@virtual.net> References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> <20040615203221.GB5397@starshine.org> <40D09D2F.1070602@virtual.net> <2147483647.1087397560@216-127-207-61.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1AC3F.8050405@pacbell.net> <2147483647.1087473108@216-127-207-67.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1D23B.6080200@pacbell.net> <40D220A6.9010300@virtual.net> <40D24328.5040900@pacbell.net> <40D3419B.2060606@virtual.net> Message-ID: <20040618202043.GW12051@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Strata R Chalup (strata at virtual.net): [...] > Basically what you're saying is that it's ok for you to be an > antisocial combative asshole on a group mailing list, and threaten > the group with legal action if they try to shut you up or boot you, > and that simply exposes the fundamental flaw in the tragedy of the > commons and somehow absolves you of personal responsibility for > your own behavior. Did this gentleman in fact post any explicit threat of litigation against BayLISA[1], either on this mailing list or in private mail? Verbatim copy would be appreciated. I ask because, if (hypothetically) I were to threaten lawsuit against an organisation operating a public electronic forum, I would expect to have my access revoked immediately, just as a matter of course -- until resolution of the dispute, at a minimum. If indeed Richard has already taken that stance, I would suggest he's also chosen his means and time of egress. But far be it from any of us to inhibit his means of expression. So: > Earlier you said this was the group of your peers, and we were > censoring you. Being a generous guy, I'm willing to burn Richard a CD-ROM set of the Linux or BSD distribution of his choice, from any of those listed at http://linuxmafia.com/cabal/installfest/#distros -- if he needs such software to operate a forum of his own to express his views. Always bear in mind the A.J. Liebling quotation: "Freedom of the press is limited to those who own one." [1] Or any Board member speaking in a Board member capacity. -- Cheers, My pid is Inigo Montoya. You kill -9 Rick Moen my parent process. Prepare to vi. rick at linuxmafia.com From gretchen at flick.com Fri Jun 18 13:20:08 2004 From: gretchen at flick.com (The Other Gretchen) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 13:20:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA Message-ID: <200406182020.NAA04375@toybox.flick.com> >I don't see where any criticism of yours has affected BayLISA. Just >your aggressive presence on our list communities, which discourages >people who don't enjoy flaming from participating. Given that attempts >at reasoned discourse with you simply escalate to ad-hominem attacks, >and that attempts at silence are responded to with 'ha! you aren't >replying, which proves I'm right!', there really aren't any good >strategies for the shy except not posting in the first place. I hope I speak for all of the other shy when I say AMEN. Richard, I am sorry to say this, but I am not entirely certain why you aren't in my spam filters yet. I find your tone to be almost invariably inflammatory and your content to be generally devoid of useful or productive information. I think the only reason I don't filter you is because of my abiding love for BayLISA, and my desire to see you someday change for the better. Your options are: (a) Change your method of communication, and the contents of your messages, so that they are tuned for your actual audience, rather than your desired audience. These two things do not appear to be the same. Hint: We are not the audience you appear to desire. (b) Quiet down and observe the traffic on the mailing list so that you can learn how to present yourself, if (a) is too difficult at the moment. This is, by the way, standard online etiquette. Hint: The members of the board are not your enemies. You are simply not keeping to etiquette and they are quite properly correcting that behavior. (c) Leave, possibly forming another group with members more in line with your goals and methods of expression. I'm sorry to lead with a message of disapprobation after a long silence, but I miss BayLISA, love its helpful parts, and hope fervently that they can continue, even though I'm too now far away to attend meetings. And I want to make it crystal clear that silence does NOT indicate assent. I, and no doubt many others, have been trying to politely ignore Richard and hope that he gets the hint. As for the productive discussions underway, I love the idea of online video simulcasting if that's possible... that's about the only way I'm going to make it to a meeting in the foreseeable future. Online writeups would be even better, since then they aren't nailed down as to time. I very much agree that reaching out to other related professions may be a great way to breathe new life blood in; make it really clear to DBAs, IT developers, etc. that they are welcome. Are there still any venues such as the late lamented Computer Literacy where the group could be advertised? It seems to me that the major way people learn about BayLISA is by word of mouth; are there other ways to spread the news that could be used? I know that in the past it has been hard for people who run Windows networks to feel truly comfortable at BayLISA. Is that still the case? If so, what could make them more welcome? You may be able to get some fruitful teaming with the Silicon Valley Cisco Users Group... maybe even to the tune of sharing facilities? Kind of a long shot, and still South Bay, but worth checking... or at least the aspiring and/or current sysadmins among them should know about the great resource of BayLISA. http://www.svcug.net/ I wish I had more fruitful suggestions, or better yet, ability to help. But do know that you wished very well indeed, BayLISA. gretchen ========not in any sekrit conspiracies From pmui at usenix.org Fri Jun 18 13:32:01 2004 From: pmui at usenix.org (Peter Mui) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 13:32:01 -0700 Subject: Usenix Security Symposium: San Diego, August 9-13 Message-ID: <8D6D4E91-C166-11D8-B281-003065FB1A66@usenix.org> Hi baylisa folks: See the conference announcement below: please let me know if this is not an appropriate posting, we don't want to be perceived as spamming. Also, there's a PDF flier and links for the conference available at http://www.usenix.org/events/sec04/promote.html. Can you please help us promote the conference by forwarding this announcement, putting links on your websites and/or distributing flyers as appropriate? Feel free to contact me anytime with questions. Thanks! -Peter Peter Mui USENIX Association 2560 9th Street STE 215 Berkeley, CA 94710 510 528 8649 ext. 28 pmui at usenix.org) (cut here) ================================================= Register now for the 13th USENIX Security Symposium August 9?13, 2004, San Diego, CA It happens here first: join us for the latest advances in computer system security. As with previous security symposiums, the breadth and quality of this year?s tutorials, refereed papers, invited talks, and participants is excellent. For the entire program and to register, visit http://www.usenix.org/sec04/progm Highlights of this year's program include: TUTORIALS: working experts give you the information, techniques, tools, and strategies you need to practice effective security tomorrow: o NEW! - Richard Bejtlich: Network Security Monitoring with Open Source Tools o Marcus Ranum: Intrusion Detection and Prevention Systems o NEW! - Brad Johnson: Network Security Profiles: Protocol Threats, Intrusion Classes, and How Hackers Find Exploits o NEW! - Marcus Ranum: System Log Aggregation, Statistics, and Analysis o NEW! - Gary McGraw: Building a Software Security Capability: How to Foster Best Practices in Software Security o Radia Perlman: Network Security Protocols: Theory and Current Standards o NEW! - David Rhoades: Network Security Assessments Workshop o NEW! - Moti Young: Malicious Cryptography PAPERS and INVITED TALKS: luminaries such as Steve Bellovin, Niels Provos, Kevin Fu, Peter Szor, Ari Juels, Cindy Cohn and Gary McGraw will present cutting-edge issues in topics such as: o RFID security and privacy o how Symantec fights virus attacks o independent security research and the law o exploiting software to break code o military strategy in cyberspace o what biology can (and can't) teach us about security Birds-of-a-Feather sessions and Work-in-Progress reports give you a preview of next year's news, or present fledgling work of your own and get feedback from the audience. KEYNOTE SPEAKER: William "Earl" Boebert of Sandia National Lab will review his 30-year association with research into "predictable systems," that is, those that can be reasoned about a priori. WHAT: 13th USENIX Security Symposium WHEN: August 9?13, 2004 WHERE: San Diego, CA, Town & Country Resort Hotel WHO: Researchers, System Administrators, Policy Wonks, etc. WHY: To get to and stay on the cutting edge of computer security HOW: Register NOW at http://www.usenix.org/sec04/progm ================================================= From chuck+baylisa at snew.com Fri Jun 18 13:34:02 2004 From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 16:34:02 -0400 Subject: writeups In-Reply-To: <20040618201714.F10B4139335@puzzle.pobox.com> References: <20040618191759.GA13345@2004.snew.com> <20040618201714.F10B4139335@puzzle.pobox.com> Message-ID: <20040618203402.GC27631@2004.snew.com> Quoting Rich Holland (holland at guidancetech.com): > Chuck Yerkes wrote: > > > MBONE *is* more modern. I feel about it like I did when people > > were all excited about CompuServe mail; "but we have this inter-net > > thing here..." > > Yeah, and it's live and cool and all, but I have 2 problems with it: > 1) It's live; it's not something I can download the next day It CAN be live. But you can just as easily feed delayed streams into it. If you took a popular event (macwold keynote) and streamed it fresh over the MBONE every minute, that would be 60 streams of multicast data going out per hour that the event lasts. 60. Compare with current day (won't say "modern") point to point streaming where 5,000 try to connect at once. > 2) If I don't control the firewall at my client site, I don't > get access to the MBONE, typically. Well, that's usually a Layer-8 problem (above the technical into the political). > So while the MBONE may still be useful and nifty, I'd *still* like to see > something downloadable; it shouldn't be hard to run the camera into a splitter, > sending one signal to the VHS and another to a video capture card capable of > recording an MPEG-4 stream... *THAT* is something I'd pay $35/year for, since > I can't show up at meetings anymore. A friend has one of those little Eye-TV things for his Mac that's been REALLY handy for him. He'll tape off a 2+ hr movie onto a VCD to save it or watch some show off his laptop in an airplane or at lunch (or meetings?). From rick at linuxmafia.com Fri Jun 18 13:36:44 2004 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 13:36:44 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <40D24328.5040900@pacbell.net> References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> <20040615203221.GB5397@starshine.org> <40D09D2F.1070602@virtual.net> <2147483647.1087397560@216-127-207-61.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1AC3F.8050405@pacbell.net> <2147483647.1087473108@216-127-207-67.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1D23B.6080200@pacbell.net> <40D220A6.9010300@virtual.net> <40D24328.5040900@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20040618203644.GX12051@linuxmafia.com> Quoting richard childers / kg6hac (fscked at pacbell.net): > As a BayLISA Board member, I must stress that as a California > registered 501(3)c, BayLISA welcomes participation from anyone > and everyone, as indeed it is required by law to do. Obligatory disclaimer: I am not an attorney. Accordingly, I am not posting professional legal advice. I am, however, familiar with the Internal Revenue Code (US Code title 26) through past professional experience in accounting and finance. 26 USC 501(c)(3), also known as US Code Title 26, Subtitle A, Chapter 1, Subchapter F, Part 1, Sec. 501, paragraph (c)(3) can be read at http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/26/501.html : U.S. Code TITLE 26 - INTERNAL REVENUE CODE Subtitle A - Income Taxes CHAPTER 1 - NORMAL TAXES AND SURTAXES Subchapter F - Exempt Organizations PART I - GENERAL RULE Sec. 501. - Exemption from tax on corporations, certain trusts, etc. (c) List of exempt organizations (3) Corporations, and any community chest, fund, or foundation, organized and operated exclusively for religious, charitable, scientific, testing for public safety, literary, or educational purposes, or to foster national or international amateur sports competition (but only if no part of its activities involve the provision of athletic facilities or equipment), or for the prevention of cruelty to children or animals, no part of the net earnings of which inures to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual, no substantial part of the activities of which is carrying on propaganda, or otherwise attempting, to influence legislation (except as otherwise provided in subsection (h)), and which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office. In my estimation, your assertion about 501(c)(3) organisations is greatly mistaken -- speaking from my acquaintance with the Internal Revenue Code and surrounding caselaw and statutes. (By the way, the term California-registered in this context is nonsensical: 501(c)(3) status is a strictly Federal matter. What you might have in mind is incorporation, which is state-level.) Do you bluff this way often, then? Does the need arise frequently? ;-> -- Cheers, Rick Moen "vi is my shepherd; I shall not font." rick at linuxmafia.com -- Psalm 0.1 beta From jxh at jxh.com Fri Jun 18 13:42:26 2004 From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:42:26 -0500 Subject: writeups In-Reply-To: <20040618191759.GA13345@2004.snew.com> References: <20040618191759.GA13345@2004.snew.com> Message-ID: <2147483647.1087573346@216-127-207-78.strgbay.dcwis.com> > MBONE *is* more modern. Well, multicast is certainly more efficient, and I wish these "radio stations", et al, would or could figure that out. But MBONE per se seems to be dead, or so I have heard, it being replaced by (unicast) things like NetMeeting, or whatever. We should adopt (if wistfully) whatever means will reach the most of the kind of people we want to serve. If this means non-real-time video stored for posterity, fetchable by members[1] in several formats, that's dandy. We have all the technology, but no one has _quite_ put all the pieces together. Before I was elected to the board, I was very active as the de-facto "video committee": I bought a camcorder and wireless mics and associated giblets, put them in a Pelican case to make it easy to tote, and kept it supplied with blank tape. (8mm analog NTSC, but at the time it was cool.) The tapes still exist, many of them (the Pelican case does, too), and want only conversion to another format for better distribution. (Before that, another set of active volunteers -- Greg Kulosa, among them -- drove the process of doing live video over the MBONE. That could likewise be restarted, with much cooler hardware these days as a bonus.) This takes time and/or money, and somehow this is where the matter has lain for about 7 years. All it needs is one more active volunteer to run the next leg of the race. You up for it? Someone? Anyone with a modern Powerbook can do this easily. (My PowerBook is 4 years old, and I live in Minnesota, so I recuse myself this time. :-) I have to reiterate, though, that the information content of these tapes, or any videotape of someone talking to a bunch of slides, is remarkably small, even if someone manned the camera (which we don't). Video may be cool, but the audio and the slides would in fact be more than adequate. Add a good, written summary, and you've got almost the whole experience. If we do want to do video, I submit that it can be compressed to within an inch of its life -- I'm thinking 1fps or less. -- [1] Identified by a password kept in ... a database! We keep coming back to this. :) From samlb at am-cath.org Fri Jun 18 14:00:42 2004 From: samlb at am-cath.org (samlb) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 14:00:42 -0700 Subject: Please don't feed the troll. Message-ID: <40D357FA.9010807@am-cath.org> They thrive on attention, and shrivel up and die when ignored. From rsr at inorganic.org Fri Jun 18 14:04:01 2004 From: rsr at inorganic.org (Roy S. Rapoport) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 14:04:01 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <20040618203644.GX12051@linuxmafia.com> References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> <20040615203221.GB5397@starshine.org> <40D09D2F.1070602@virtual.net> <2147483647.1087397560@216-127-207-61.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1AC3F.8050405@pacbell.net> <2147483647.1087473108@216-127-207-67.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1D23B.6080200@pacbell.net> <40D220A6.9010300@virtual.net> <40D24328.5040900@pacbell.net> <20040618203644.GX12051@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <20040618210401.GA19251@puppy.inorganic.org> On Fri, Jun 18, 2004 at 01:36:44PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting richard childers / kg6hac (fscked at pacbell.net): > > > As a BayLISA Board member, I must stress that as a California > > registered 501(3)c, BayLISA welcomes participation from anyone > > and everyone, as indeed it is required by law to do. Attribution error detected. Core dumped. -roy From rick at linuxmafia.com Fri Jun 18 14:14:35 2004 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 14:14:35 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <20040618203644.GX12051@linuxmafia.com> References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> <20040615203221.GB5397@starshine.org> <40D09D2F.1070602@virtual.net> <2147483647.1087397560@216-127-207-61.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1AC3F.8050405@pacbell.net> <2147483647.1087473108@216-127-207-67.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1D23B.6080200@pacbell.net> <40D220A6.9010300@virtual.net> <40D24328.5040900@pacbell.net> <20040618203644.GX12051@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <20040618211435.GA13709@linuxmafia.com> A member tells me in private mail that I misattributed this quotation... > As a BayLISA Board member, I must stress that as a California > registered 501(3)c, BayLISA welcomes participation from anyone > and everyone, as indeed it is required by law to do. ...and that it was actually posted by Strata. If so, my remarks at the bottom were misaimed, and I'll instead substitute this: Strata, that isn't correct, as far as I can tell -- and thus you are greatly mistaken. ;-> In particular, Federal tax law imposes (in my non-professional opinion) no requirement that exempt organisations "welcome participation from anyone and everyone". From gwen at reptiles.org Fri Jun 18 14:36:59 2004 From: gwen at reptiles.org (Gwendolynn ferch Elydyr) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 17:36:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <20040618203644.GX12051@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <20040618173015.T1223-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Rick Moen wrote: > (By the way, the term California-registered in this context is > nonsensical: 501(c)(3) status is a strictly Federal matter. What you > might have in mind is incorporation, which is state-level.) It looks like a confusion to me. Baylisa is a California non-profit corporation, which is handled by the IRS under 501(c)(3). That'd be your state and federal all rolled into one ;> Looking at the California code[0], it seems to say that members can't be turfed unless there's a proceedure in the bylaws for doing so, which unfortunately... there isn't. > Do you bluff this way often, then? Does the need arise frequently? ;-> ... and thus, it looks unfortunately not like a bluff, but like a statement of fact. I do gather that the bylaws may be ammended with the approval of a majority of the board of directors. cheers! [0] http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=corp&group=05001-06000&file=5340-5342 ========================================================================== "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now." From rick at linuxmafia.com Fri Jun 18 14:57:33 2004 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 14:57:33 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <20040618173015.T1223-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> References: <20040618203644.GX12051@linuxmafia.com> <20040618173015.T1223-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> Message-ID: <20040618215733.GN8293@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Gwendolynn ferch Elydyr (gwen at reptiles.org): > It looks like a confusion to me. Baylisa is a California non-profit > corporation, which is handled by the IRS under 501(c)(3). That'd be > your state and federal all rolled into one ;> Well, (Strata's) _sentence_ has them all rolled into one. The law doesn't. Thus my point. > Looking at the California code[0], it seems to say that members can't > be turfed unless there's a proceedure in the bylaws for doing so, > which unfortunately... there isn't. If "turfed" in this case means expelled from membership, then that is not relevant to recent discussion. You might alternatively mean curtailing of substantive membership rights. But posting to baylisa at baylisa.org is not indicated as a right of membership. See: http://www.baylisa.org/board/bylaws.html In any event, per our records, Mr. Childers is not a BayLISA member. In fact, judging by our LDAP database, he hasn't been one at any point in the past, either. From gwen at reptiles.org Fri Jun 18 15:32:16 2004 From: gwen at reptiles.org (Gwendolynn ferch Elydyr) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 18:32:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <20040618215733.GN8293@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <20040618182933.F1223-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Rick Moen wrote: > Well, (Strata's) _sentence_ has them all rolled into one. The law > doesn't. Thus my point. Heh. Fair 'nuf ;> I figured that we were picking nits, so I picked ;> > If "turfed" in this case means expelled from membership, then that is > not relevant to recent discussion. You might alternatively mean > curtailing of substantive membership rights. But posting to > baylisa at baylisa.org is not indicated as a right of membership. See: > http://www.baylisa.org/board/bylaws.html Turfed in this case does, since the question was about removal from participation - but the answer is the same in both cases. The bylaws say nothing about rights or removals, barring voting - and thus there's no particular recourse. > In any event, per our records, Mr. Childers is not a BayLISA member. > In fact, judging by our LDAP database, he hasn't been one at any point > in the past, either. I'd like to be surprised by that[0]. cheers! [0] Although I'm also guilty of the same. ========================================================================== "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now." From jxh at jxh.com Fri Jun 18 15:32:28 2004 From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 17:32:28 -0500 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <20040618211435.GA13709@linuxmafia.com> References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> <20040615203221.GB5397@starshine.org> <40D09D2F.1070602@virtual.net> <2147483647.1087397560@216-127-207-61.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1AC3F.8050405@pacbell.net> <2147483647.1087473108@216-127-207-67.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1D23B.6080200@pacbell.net> <40D220A6.9010300@virtual.net> <40D24328.5040900@pacbell.net> <20040618203644.GX12051@linuxmafia.com> <20040618211435.GA13709@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <2147483647.1087579948@216-127-207-68.strgbay.dcwis.com> > In particular, Federal tax law imposes (in my non-professional opinion) > no requirement that exempt organisations "welcome participation from > anyone and everyone". And, just to end this thread _again_, I never saw any application for nor evidence of tax-exempt status, period, let alone under IRC 501(c)(3). I was Treasurer for 2 years and President for 2 more, and that covers 4 of the 11 years so far; I looked in the Big Box -- hell, I reorganized it -- and saw nothing of this sort. We just don't make enough money to go over the threshold where one has pay any taxes, nor even file anything. We were so advised by Daniel R. Miller, J.D., C.P.A., one of our corporate members, and that beats the letters after _my_ name by five. So it's not a legal matter, merely a tactical one. Please don't feed the trolls. From rick at linuxmafia.com Fri Jun 18 15:44:33 2004 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:44:33 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <20040618182933.F1223-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> References: <20040618215733.GN8293@linuxmafia.com> <20040618182933.F1223-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> Message-ID: <20040618224433.GP8293@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Gwendolynn ferch Elydyr (gwen at reptiles.org): > Turfed in this case does, since the question was about removal from > participation - but the answer is the same in both cases. The bylaws > say nothing about rights or removals, barring voting - and thus there's > no particular recourse. Hypothetically assuming we were talking about a member ;-> , the state corporations code would prevent BayLISA from curtailing a member's rights without a regular process for doing so. My point, however, is as previously stated: Posting to this list is not something membership buys. Ergo, it is not subject to that statutory regulation. As you noted, voting (by contrast) _is_ listed as a right of membership. Therefore, BayLISA cannot revoke or curtail a member's voting right other than in a narrowly constrained fashion. -- Cheers, Ah, September, when the sysadmins turn colors Rick Moen and fall off the trees.... rick at linuxmafia.com -- Dave Van Domelen From jimd at starshine.org Fri Jun 18 15:58:23 2004 From: jimd at starshine.org (jimd at starshine.org) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:58:23 -0700 Subject: Thanks! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040618225823.GB16036@mercury.starshine.org> On Thu, Jun 17, 2004 at 10:04:52PM -0700, Jennifer Davis wrote: > From 280 Freeway > light at Mariami and you should turn left there, right at the first > driveway (marked with a blue apple), and park. > a Donut Wheel shop to the left.) Now that you've turned around, you can > enter the blue-apple marked driveway on your right. lot. > at Mariani, which is rather large, and a light; then turn right into the > blue-apple driveway. > All of these directions instruct people to turn right into the driveway > after turning on to Mariani. The actual directions should be turn left on > the Infinite Loop. Having both the map and the directions, and the > evidence in front of us we knew where to go today, but figured that this > should probably be corrected on the website. Ooops. Those are artifacts from when we met in the other building. (I guess the building 4 meeting space was being renovated or something a year or so ago). Strata? Heather? > Thanks again! > Jennifer Davis -- Jim Dennis From alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com Fri Jun 18 16:03:27 2004 From: alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com (Alvin Oga) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 16:03:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 501c - Re: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1087579948@216-127-207-68.strgbay.dcwis.com> Message-ID: hi ya On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Jim Hickstein wrote: > > In particular, Federal tax law imposes (in my non-professional opinion) > > no requirement that exempt organisations "welcome participation from > > anyone and everyone". > > And, just to end this thread _again_, I never saw any application for nor > evidence of tax-exempt status, period, let alone under IRC 501(c)(3). I > was Treasurer for 2 years and President for 2 more, and that covers 4 of > the 11 years so far; I looked in the Big Box -- hell, I reorganized it -- easy enough to verify, just call or write to the irs, and ask them what is the status of the corp ( they'd want the taxid ) and they'd reply whether or not the 501(c)3 paperwork had been properly filed or not and accepted c ya alvin From lanning at monsoonwind.com Fri Jun 18 16:06:59 2004 From: lanning at monsoonwind.com (Robert Hajime Lanning) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 16:06:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1087579948@216-127-207-68.strgbay.dcwis.com> References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> <20040615203221.GB5397@starshine.org> <40D09D2F.1070602@virtual.net> <2147483647.1087397560@216-127-207-61.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1AC3F.8050405@pacbell.net> <2147483647.1087473108@216-127-207-67.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1D23B.6080200@pacbell.net> <40D220A6.9010300@virtual.net> <40D24328.5040900@pacbell.net> <20040618203644.GX12051@linuxmafia.com> <20040618211435.GA13709@linuxmafia.com> <2147483647.1087579948@216-127-207-68.strgbay.dcwis.com> Message-ID: <54594.192.55.4.36.1087600019.squirrel@192.55.4.36> > And, just to end this thread _again_, I never saw any application for nor > evidence of tax-exempt status, period, let alone under IRC 501(c)(3). I > was Treasurer for 2 years and President for 2 more, and that covers 4 of > the 11 years so far; I looked in the Big Box -- hell, I reorganized it -- > and saw nothing of this sort. We just don't make enough money to go over > the threshold where one has pay any taxes, nor even file anything. We were > so advised by Daniel R. Miller, J.D., C.P.A., one of our corporate members, > and that beats the letters after _my_ name by five. > > So it's not a legal matter, merely a tactical one. Please don't feed the > trolls. We are incorporated, right? How do we have insurance to cover our public meeting venue? -- END OF LINE -MCP From mark at bitshift.org Fri Jun 18 16:07:41 2004 From: mark at bitshift.org (Mark C. Langston) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 16:07:41 -0700 Subject: Hi-cap storage question Message-ID: <20040618230741.GE35808@bitshift.org> Okay, here's one for you high-capacity folks: We're looking at our storage requirements right now. We have two needs: short-term storage and access on live media, and long-term storage on archival media. Simple, right? Well, maybe not. You see, the amount of data is a bit larger than what most people are used to dealing with. It's roughly an exabyte. We won't be generating it all at once, but that's our short-to-medium-term need. Right now, today, we're storing/archiving a terabyte every 20 days, and getting by with hardware RAID (only keeping about 100-200GB live, and rotating the available partitions on a FIFO basis) and LTO1 jukeboxes. We expect that need to double within a year, and within two to three? years, jump exponentially. Right now, the vast bulk of the data is stored in flat files, which does not present a problem for us at the moment, neither in terms of access (it's write-only during collection), or inode count (the number of files is small and finite). Moving to a database isn't out of the question, but if we did, "free" is a very good word. Thoughts on the physical storage issue? -- Mark C. Langston Sr. Unix SysAdmin mark at bitshift.org mark at seti.org Systems & Network Admin SETI Institute http://bitshift.org http://www.seti.org From sigje at sigje.org Fri Jun 18 16:42:15 2004 From: sigje at sigje.org (Jennifer Davis) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 16:42:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: job posting.. Message-ID: OK :) rather than putting up my own summary about what the job involves, I'm going to talk to our HR person about submitting the posting(s). Thanks for reminding me of that list. Jennifer From michael at halligan.org Fri Jun 18 16:49:51 2004 From: michael at halligan.org (Michael T. Halligan) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 16:49:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 501c - Re: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Or you can look it up onb dun & brad street.. I see two entries, one for sunnyvale of "BayLISA" and one for Sanjose of "Bay L.I.S.A" On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Alvin Oga wrote: > > hi ya > > On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Jim Hickstein wrote: > > > > In particular, Federal tax law imposes (in my non-professional opinion) > > > no requirement that exempt organisations "welcome participation from > > > anyone and everyone". > > > > And, just to end this thread _again_, I never saw any application for nor > > evidence of tax-exempt status, period, let alone under IRC 501(c)(3). I > > was Treasurer for 2 years and President for 2 more, and that covers 4 of > > the 11 years so far; I looked in the Big Box -- hell, I reorganized it -- > > easy enough to verify, just call or write to the irs, and ask them what is > the status of the corp ( they'd want the taxid ) and they'd reply whether > or not the 501(c)3 paperwork had been properly filed or not and accepted > > c ya > alvin > > ------------------- Michael T. Halligan Chief Geek Halligan Infrastructure Designs. http://www.halligan.org/ 3158 Mission St. #3 San Francisco, CA 94110 (415) 724.7998 - Mobile From alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com Fri Jun 18 17:35:42 2004 From: alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com (Alvin Oga) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 17:35:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hi-cap storage question In-Reply-To: <20040618230741.GE35808@bitshift.org> Message-ID: hi ya mark On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Mark C. Langston wrote: > We won't be generating it all at once, but that's our > short-to-medium-term need. Right now, today, we're storing/archiving > a terabyte every 20 days, and getting by with hardware RAID (only > keeping about 100-200GB live, and rotating the available partitions on a > FIFO basis) and LTO1 jukeboxes. so far, its ez enough, since we have 250GB/300GB disks at $150 - $250each - 110vac power and air conditioning and rack space is a separate issue - if say each "pc" w/ 4 disks uses 6-8A at 12v -> 100W of live current per mb system for about 1TB of storage 1 PB system would need about 6,000A of +12v power, if it all has to stay live at the same time ( non-trivial at 1 petabyte of storage ) - a blades w/ 4 drives or 1U's with 4 drives would be a major important factor in power, space, air conditioning, etc - 10 blades per 4U space is trivial to do ( ie 40 drives per 4U ) - 4 1Us per 4U space ( too small ) - 10x 4U blades ( 400 disks ) per rack --> fun stuff ( each disk is 1A at +12v ) > Right now, the vast bulk of the data is stored in flat files, which does > not present a problem for us at the moment, neither in terms of access > (it's write-only during collection), or inode count (the number of files > is small and finite). Moving to a database isn't out of the question, > but if we did, "free" is a very good word. and hope you have a good "search" algorithm to find the "data" you need out of the peta/exabyte systems ibm/oracle has a 15TB db system for $15M :-) ( which is obsurdly priced ) c ya alvin From michael at halligan.org Fri Jun 18 18:30:20 2004 From: michael at halligan.org (Michael T. Halligan) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 18:30:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hi-cap storage question In-Reply-To: <20040618230741.GE35808@bitshift.org> Message-ID: Mark, One thought in tape drives.. I've seen a few 768-tape storagetek libraries with something like 7 drive quantum (they might be upgradeable to 11 libraries) go on ebay, for about $45k.. Add another $25k worth of superdlt drives to get it to 7 SDLT 200/400s, and about $10k worth of tape, could get you about 15 petabytes of storage, at about 360GB/hour (or is that per minute? I'm tired). uncompressed data. All for the low, low price of about $80k. In terms of usable needs, you're only keeping about 200GB live right now. Some questions that come to mind : 1. How much data are you generating per hour 2. How much turn-around time do you need to access archived data Hardware costs go down every 6 months or so, with an interesting improvement in drive speed and storage capacity what, once a year? 3. Can you space out your purchasing/buildout needs to grow as you do? For example, buy 42 73GB 15k drives now (3 14 disk jbods), in a year, purchase 42 146GB 15k drives, and theoeretically in 18 months-2 years, buy 42 290GB drives, etc? If you actually have to use these flat files to do anything useful, the more spindles the better, especially if you're not planning on going with a database. There's also the option of building a complex archive.org like cluster, throwing hundreds of cheap servers with low-cost(quality) raid controllers and cheap PC drives, then implementing something like lustre, GFS, or andrewfs to be able to access it all, or write an intelligent "load-balancer" to sort where data goes, and be able to migrate between stable and unstable, or fast and slow "nodes" or clusters of nodes as needs develop. > Okay, here's one for you high-capacity folks: > > We're looking at our storage requirements right now. > > We have two needs: short-term storage and access on live media, and > long-term storage on archival media. > > Simple, right? > > Well, maybe not. > > You see, the amount of data is a bit larger than what most people are > used to dealing with. It's roughly an exabyte. > > We won't be generating it all at once, but that's our > short-to-medium-term need. Right now, today, we're storing/archiving > a terabyte every 20 days, and getting by with hardware RAID (only > keeping about 100-200GB live, and rotating the available partitions on a > FIFO basis) and LTO1 jukeboxes. > > We expect that need to double within a year, and within two to three? > years, jump exponentially. > > Right now, the vast bulk of the data is stored in flat files, which does > not present a problem for us at the moment, neither in terms of access > (it's write-only during collection), or inode count (the number of files > is small and finite). Moving to a database isn't out of the question, > but if we did, "free" is a very good word. > > Thoughts on the physical storage issue? > > > > > -- > Mark C. Langston Sr. Unix SysAdmin > mark at bitshift.org mark at seti.org > Systems & Network Admin SETI Institute > http://bitshift.org http://www.seti.org > ------------------- Michael T. Halligan Chief Geek Halligan Infrastructure Designs. http://www.halligan.org/ 3158 Mission St. #3 San Francisco, CA 94110 (415) 724.7998 - Mobile From jxh at jxh.com Fri Jun 18 18:34:50 2004 From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 20:34:50 -0500 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <54594.192.55.4.36.1087600019.squirrel@192.55.4.36> References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> <20040615203221.GB5397@starshine.org> <40D09D2F.1070602@virtual.net> <2147483647.1087397560@216-127-207-61.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1AC3F.8050405@pacbell.net> <2147483647.1087473108@216-127-207-67.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1D23B.6080200@pacbell.net> <40D220A6.9010300@virtual.net> <40D24328.5040900@pacbell.net> <20040618203644.GX12051@linuxmafia.com> <20040618211435.GA13709@linuxmafia.com> <2147483647.1087579948@216-127-207-68.strgbay.dcwis.com> <54594.192.55.4.36.1087600019.squirrel@192.55.4.36> Message-ID: <2147483647.1087590890@216-127-207-114.strgbay.dcwis.com> > We are incorporated, right? Perhaps. I never saw anything but the bylaws; no evidence that anything was filed anywhere. I never knew the IRS taxpayer ID, if there was one. (This laissez-faire thing goes back further than the sitting board, if you know what I mean. Mea culpa.) > How do we have insurance to cover our public meeting venue? _We_ don't. The meeting venue does. That's one issue (sometimes) in finding new space. Never been a claim, never been an incident. And this record is worth striving to continue, IMO, however one does that. :-) From lanning at lanning.cc Fri Jun 18 16:08:41 2004 From: lanning at lanning.cc (Robert Hajime Lanning) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 16:08:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA Message-ID: <57803.192.55.4.36.1087600121.squirrel@192.55.4.36> > And, just to end this thread _again_, I never saw any application for nor > evidence of tax-exempt status, period, let alone under IRC 501(c)(3). I > was Treasurer for 2 years and President for 2 more, and that covers 4 of > the 11 years so far; I looked in the Big Box -- hell, I reorganized it -- > and saw nothing of this sort. We just don't make enough money to go > over the threshold where one has pay any taxes, nor even file anything. > We were so advised by Daniel R. Miller, J.D., C.P.A., one of our corporate > members, and that beats the letters after _my_ name by five. > > So it's not a legal matter, merely a tactical one. Please don't feed the > trolls. We are incorporated, right? How do we have insurance to cover our public meeting venue? -- END OF LINE -MCP From lanning at lanning.cc Fri Jun 18 17:40:28 2004 From: lanning at lanning.cc (Robert Hajime Lanning) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 17:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Providing feedback to the BayLISA board Message-ID: <49828.192.55.4.36.1087605628.squirrel@192.55.4.36> > I happened to chat a bit with someone after the meeting last night > who expressed interest in helping out and -- in particular -- helping > to ensure that BayLISA remains viable; I was, of course, pleased to > be able encourage this. That was myself. -- END OF LINE -MCP From pozar at lns.com Sat Jun 19 07:37:19 2004 From: pozar at lns.com (Tim Pozar) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 07:37:19 -0700 Subject: Hi-cap storage question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40D44F9F.7060607@lns.com> I know of one at the Internet Archive that is just collecting dust if you want a used one. Tim Michael T. Halligan wrote: > Mark, > > One thought in tape drives.. I've seen a few 768-tape storagetek > libraries with something like 7 drive quantum (they might be upgradeable > to 11 libraries) go on ebay, for about $45k.. Add another $25k worth of > superdlt drives to get it to 7 SDLT 200/400s, and about $10k worth of > tape, could get you about 15 petabytes of storage, at about 360GB/hour > (or is that per minute? I'm tired). > uncompressed data. All for the low, low price of about $80k. From strata at virtual.net Sat Jun 19 11:37:23 2004 From: strata at virtual.net (Strata R Chalup) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 11:37:23 -0700 Subject: writeups In-Reply-To: <20040618191759.GA13345@2004.snew.com> References: <20040618191759.GA13345@2004.snew.com> Message-ID: <40D487E3.10105@virtual.net> Chuck Yerkes wrote: Sounds like a good idea to me. Login is always looking for more content. A certain number of pages of login are dedicated to SAGE content, and if they've implemented a chargeback model, as was being discussed, I could imagine the SAGE Exec being stuffy about the 'SAGEness' of groups. However Usenix might also let us into 'their' pages if we sent updates. cheers, Strata >From a simple: > BayLISA meets August 19, see website for more > info. June's meeting was on using procmail > to... and it covered xxx and www. > > A more extensive format might continue for 1-5 paragraphs as desired. > > Is there objection to BayLISA participating in a SAGE publication > like this? (presuming SAGE wants). > > -- ======================================================================== Strata Rose Chalup [KF6NBZ] strata "@" virtual.net VirtualNet Consulting http://www.virtual.net/ ** Project Management & Architecture for ISP/ASP Systems Integration ** ========================================================================= From strata at virtual.net Sat Jun 19 12:00:06 2004 From: strata at virtual.net (Strata R Chalup) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 12:00:06 -0700 Subject: baylisa video streaming (was Re: writeups) In-Reply-To: <20040618201714.F10B4139335@puzzle.pobox.com> References: <20040618201714.F10B4139335@puzzle.pobox.com> Message-ID: <40D48D36.9060709@virtual.net> Rich, This is a good point, and it may be time to revisit it. A number of years ago, when the economy was high and BayLISA was a lot more visible at the LISA conferences, the Board was offered a donation of a NetApp file server by Network Appliance (1998-1999ish). At the time, feelings were quite ambivalent-- some folks were all for it, others thought it might put us over the limit of what we could legally intake for donations for a calendar year, etc. An idea was floated that what we could use that space for would be to digitize the BayLISA video library and make it available to members for download. Whether our volunteer hosting at the time had the bandwidth to support that was another question, but we knew we could get creative with throttling and took the next step to raise the question. To our surprise, quite a number of our past speakers objected strongly to this idea. Even though their talks may not have been precisely the same as their tutorials, several said that having their material out for download would ultimately spread it far enough that it would impact their ability to make a living. Others indicated that they expressed strong opinions or undiplomatic truths in their presentations, and that while they were comfortable with being a part of the video library, they too had concerns about the ability of digital media to spread far and wide. Recently we've talked about making BayLISA videos available to the Computer History Museum. One of our members is involved with the Museum and thinks they could arrange to have the Museum digitize the videos onto DVDs and add them to the Museum library. We'd like to see that done, but need to get details finalized, including an inventory of all the videos on hand and a mechanism to get release forms to the speakers for yea/nay decisions on permission. We'd have to rely on the honor system for folks not to digitally share these files-- though nowadays, anyone with a Tivo or ReplayTV or homebrew video capture setup could do the same with the video tapes. I'm told that the current video library occupies something like 16 cubic feet, and that since we let our storage unit drop to save funds, it's hosted at the video librarian's home or garage. Certainly putting things on DVD would help with storage space, as well as being a format more affordably mailable to remote members. So clearly this is something that we need to get working on again. cheers, Strata Rich Holland wrote: > ... > So while the MBONE may still be useful and nifty, I'd *still* like to see > something downloadable; it shouldn't be hard to run the camera into a splitter, > sending one signal to the VHS and another to a video capture card capable of > recording an MPEG-4 stream... *THAT* is something I'd pay $35/year for, since > I can't show up at meetings anymore. > > Rich -- ======================================================================== Strata Rose Chalup [KF6NBZ] strata "@" virtual.net VirtualNet Consulting http://www.virtual.net/ ** Project Management & Architecture for ISP/ASP Systems Integration ** ========================================================================= From strata at virtual.net Sat Jun 19 12:21:01 2004 From: strata at virtual.net (Strata R Chalup) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 12:21:01 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <20040618203644.GX12051@linuxmafia.com> References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> <20040615203221.GB5397@starshine.org> <40D09D2F.1070602@virtual.net> <2147483647.1087397560@216-127-207-61.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1AC3F.8050405@pacbell.net> <2147483647.1087473108@216-127-207-67.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1D23B.6080200@pacbell.net> <40D220A6.9010300@virtual.net> <40D24328.5040900@pacbell.net> <20040618203644.GX12051@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <40D4921D.7010107@virtual.net> Actually, that's me you're quoting, in my reply to Richard Childers. I think BayLISA is incorporated in CA, but you are right that the 501(3)c is a federal thing, not a state thing. We sought some legal advice from Dan Miller, our volunteer accountant and legal advisor, on restricting participation for someone being antisocial. I believe that he encouraged us to attempt to build bridges rather than burn them. The BayLISA treasury is not particularly well-endowed, and being right can be expensive. cheers, Strata Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting richard childers / kg6hac (fscked at pacbell.net): > > >>As a BayLISA Board member, I must stress that as a California >>registered 501(3)c, BayLISA welcomes participation from anyone >>and everyone, as indeed it is required by law to do. > > > Obligatory disclaimer: I am not an attorney. Accordingly, I am not > posting professional legal advice. > > I am, however, familiar with the Internal Revenue Code (US Code title 26) > through past professional experience in accounting and finance. 26 USC > 501(c)(3), also known as US Code Title 26, Subtitle A, Chapter 1, > Subchapter F, Part 1, Sec. 501, paragraph (c)(3) can be read at > http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/26/501.html : > > U.S. Code > TITLE 26 - INTERNAL REVENUE CODE > Subtitle A - Income Taxes > CHAPTER 1 - NORMAL TAXES AND SURTAXES > Subchapter F - Exempt Organizations > PART I - GENERAL RULE > Sec. 501. - Exemption from tax on corporations, certain trusts, etc. > (c) List of exempt organizations > (3) Corporations, and any community chest, fund, or foundation, > organized and operated exclusively for religious, charitable, > scientific, testing for public safety, literary, or educational > purposes, or to foster national or international amateur sports > competition (but only if no part of its activities involve the > provision of athletic facilities or equipment), or for the > prevention of cruelty to children or animals, no part of the net > earnings of which inures to the benefit of any private > shareholder or individual, no substantial part of the activities > of which is carrying on propaganda, or otherwise attempting, to > influence legislation (except as otherwise provided in subsection > (h)), and which does not participate in, or intervene in > (including the publishing or distributing of statements), any > political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any > candidate for public office. > > In my estimation, your assertion about 501(c)(3) organisations is > greatly mistaken -- speaking from my acquaintance with the Internal > Revenue Code and surrounding caselaw and statutes. > > (By the way, the term California-registered in this context is > nonsensical: 501(c)(3) status is a strictly Federal matter. What you > might have in mind is incorporation, which is state-level.) > > Do you bluff this way often, then? Does the need arise frequently? ;-> > -- ======================================================================== Strata Rose Chalup [KF6NBZ] strata "@" virtual.net VirtualNet Consulting http://www.virtual.net/ ** Project Management & Architecture for ISP/ASP Systems Integration ** ========================================================================= From strata at virtual.net Sat Jun 19 12:27:41 2004 From: strata at virtual.net (Strata R Chalup) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 12:27:41 -0700 Subject: nonprofits et al In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1087579948@216-127-207-68.strgbay.dcwis.com> References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> <20040615203221.GB5397@starshine.org> <40D09D2F.1070602@virtual.net> <2147483647.1087397560@216-127-207-61.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1AC3F.8050405@pacbell.net> <2147483647.1087473108@216-127-207-67.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1D23B.6080200@pacbell.net> <40D220A6.9010300@virtual.net> <40D24328.5040900@pacbell.net> <20040618203644.GX12051@linuxmafia.com> <20040618211435.GA13709@linuxmafia.com> <2147483647.1087579948@216-127-207-68.strgbay.dcwis.com> Message-ID: <40D493AD.9090403@virtual.net> Aha. That sounds pretty definitive-- and definitely goes against what 'everybody knows'. So I am definitively completely wrong, and like most people who are, had absolute confidence in my incorrect knowledge. Doh. There's another WRONG posting from me on the same topic too, alas, and now I'll shut up!! cheers, _Strata Jim Hickstein wrote: > And, just to end this thread _again_, I never saw any application for > nor evidence of tax-exempt status, period, let alone under IRC > 501(c)(3). I was Treasurer for 2 years and President for 2 more, and > that covers 4 of the 11 years so far; I looked in the Big Box -- hell, I > reorganized it -- and saw nothing of this sort. We just don't make > enough money to go over the threshold where one has pay any taxes, nor > even file anything. We were so advised by Daniel R. Miller, J.D., > C.P.A., one of our corporate members, and that beats the letters after > _my_ name by five. -- ======================================================================== Strata Rose Chalup [KF6NBZ] strata "@" virtual.net VirtualNet Consulting http://www.virtual.net/ ** Project Management & Architecture for ISP/ASP Systems Integration ** ========================================================================= From zwicky at greatcircle.com Sat Jun 19 15:52:50 2004 From: zwicky at greatcircle.com (Elizabeth Zwicky) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 15:52:50 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <54594.192.55.4.36.1087600019.squirrel@192.55.4.36> References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> <20040615203221.GB5397@starshine.org> <40D09D2F.1070602@virtual.net> <2147483647.1087397560@216-127-207-61.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1AC3F.8050405@pacbell.net> <2147483647.1087473108@216-127-207-67.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1D23B.6080200@pacbell.net> <40D220A6.9010300@virtual.net> <40D24328.5040900@pacbell.net> <20040618203644.GX12051@linuxmafia.com> <20040618211435.GA13709@linuxmafia.com> <2147483647.1087579948@216-127-207-68.strgbay.dcwis.com> <54594.192.55.4.36.1087600019.squirrel@192.55.4.36> Message-ID: At 4:06 PM -0700 6/18/04, Robert Hajime Lanning wrote: >We are incorporated, right? >How do we have insurance to cover our public meeting venue? That's four questions: Is BayLISA a legal entity? To the best of my belief, yes, and it has been since forever. I remember the paperwork vauely. Bjorn set it up. Is "corporation" the type of legal entity BayLISA is? I think so, but if you told me you had evidence to the contrary, I wouldn't be shocked. If you told me there was no evidence at all, that wouldn't really shock me either as many things were misplaced early on. Do you need to be a coporation to get insurance to hold a public meeting? Again, my evidence on this point isn't great, but I don't think so. Paying the (exorbitant) premium and providing evidence you aren't a more-than-average risk is all I remember insurance companies being interested in. Do you need insurance to hold a public meeting? This one I can answer with authority: No, you don't. Some venues will require it. Others will just rely on their own insurance. BayLISA, having checked out the cost of insurance, uses venues of the second type. Public libraries, being poor but wise, require insurance. Computer companies, being rich and at least in this way innocent, generally do not. It might be five, since I suspect that you could argue quite a bit about whether BayLISA actually has public meeting venues. If Apple decided not to let people wearing blue shoes onto their premises, BayLISA would suddenly be closed to people wearing blue shoes until it found a new venue. It may be a public meeting, but it's decidedly *not* a public venue. Elizabeth ---- zwicky at greatcircle.com Newest project: Opal Eleanor Armstrong Zwicky, born March 4, 2004 Nothing much happened in the last year except a death, a wedding, flesh-eating bacteria, a move or two, a birth, and a few new jobs in the family. From rsr at inorganic.org Sun Jun 20 08:51:54 2004 From: rsr at inorganic.org (Roy S. Rapoport) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 08:51:54 -0700 Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1087480661@216-127-207-67.strgbay.dcwis.com> References: <40CF4975.3020502@virtual.net> <20040615203221.GB5397@starshine.org> <40D09D2F.1070602@virtual.net> <2147483647.1087397560@216-127-207-61.strgbay.dcwis.com> <40D1AC3F.8050405@pacbell.net> <2147483647.1087473108@216-127-207-67.strgbay.dcwis.com> <20040617181418.GF28708@puppy.inorganic.org> <2147483647.1087480661@216-127-207-67.strgbay.dcwis.com> Message-ID: <20040620155154.GA9691@puppy.inorganic.org> On Thu, Jun 17, 2004 at 01:57:41PM -0500, Jim Hickstein wrote: > Also, the membership-database thing seems to need a developer more than a > sysadmin per se. You up for it? Provisionally, yes. I'm cramming until Wednesday, but will have some time free afterwards. And while this reply is going publicly because the question went public, I'm guessing the rest of this should go private. Do we need a baylisa-dev mailing list? I've got a Mailman installation ready to do my bidding, or we can ask David to set up a new mailing list. I don't think it's really baylisa@ or blw*@ material. -roy * I'm probably the only Baylisa member who thinks of Black Leather Wings, another somewhat small local somewhat-social group, every time he sees blw@ From david at catwhisker.org Sun Jun 20 09:20:47 2004 From: david at catwhisker.org (David Wolfskill) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 09:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BayLISA -> BayISSA In-Reply-To: <20040620155154.GA9691@puppy.inorganic.org> Message-ID: <200406201620.i5KGKlpe044411@bunrab.catwhisker.org> >Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 08:51:54 -0700 >From: "Roy S. Rapoport" >To: baylisa >Subject: Re: BayLISA -> BayISSA >Sender: owner-baylisa at baylisa.org >Do we need a baylisa-dev mailing list? I've got a Mailman installation >ready to do my bidding, or we can ask David to set up a new mailing list. >I don't think it's really baylisa@ or blw*@ material. There exists a list intended for folks concentrating on BayLISA infrastructure. It has the singular disadvantage of bearing a name I bestowed upon it; I would not object to its re-christening, if folks prefer. It is services-tf at baylisa.org, and is handled in the usual BayLISA-list way. Peace, david (current hat: postmaster at baylisa.org) -- David H. Wolfskill david at catwhisker.org I do not "unsubscribe" from email "services" to which I have not explicitly subscribed. Rather, I block spammers' access to SMTP servers I control, and encourage others who are in a position to do so to do likewise. From jxh at jxh.com Mon Jun 21 09:10:13 2004 From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 11:10:13 -0500 Subject: baylisa video streaming (was Re: writeups) In-Reply-To: <40D48D36.9060709@virtual.net> References: <20040618201714.F10B4139335@puzzle.pobox.com> <40D48D36.9060709@virtual.net> Message-ID: > To our surprise, quite a number of our past speakers objected strongly > to this idea. We could certainly do something on a going-forward basis, with or without a written release. At least people would know this was part of the deal, and we wouldn't be going back and changing history on them. Also, just in my opinion, since the talks are highly technical, and technology changes so fast, they really do decay very quickly in relevance. One might wish to review Larry Wall playing the violin (so I hear), but the content of his talk on that occasion probably isn't very important to our membership today. The CHM, maybe, and we should think about preserving the library, but probably not distributing it. From mark at bitshift.org Tue Jun 22 17:16:17 2004 From: mark at bitshift.org (Mark C. Langston) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 17:16:17 -0700 Subject: Distributed reputation system project announcement Message-ID: <20040623001617.GO35808@bitshift.org> Given the recent discussion of reputation systems in various anti-spam fora, I've decided to finally start working on my distributed reputation system in earnest. The working title for the project is: Gossip Optimized for Selective Spam Prevention (GOSSiP). There's a website that details the current concepts at http://sufficiently-advanced.net . Please don't take the first three documents as indicative of the current thinking; they're more than a year old and the idea has evolved since then. What's described on the main page should be thought of as current. There's a mailing list set up (via mailman) to which interested people can subscribe: https://secure.roadtoad.net/mailman/listinfo/gossip There's also some extremely early skeleton code on the sufficiently-advanced page (a skeleton sendmail milter and threaded GOSSiP server, both in C). I'd invite anyone interested in being involved in the project, particularly those who'd like to help develop the code, to subscribe to the mailing list. Who's needed: Besides people willing to give general input and test, we could use people familiar with implementing SSL sockets in C; people familiar with interfacing code with database backends; people familiar with writing add-ons to various MTAs (sendmail, postfix, exim, qmail) and spam filters (spamassassin being the primary focus right now). There's already a skeleton sendmail milter in C, and the beginnings of the standalone server. The project's just beginning, so there's enough for everyone who wants to contribute. -- Mark C. Langston Sr. Unix SysAdmin mark at bitshift.org mark at seti.org Systems & Network Admin SETI Institute http://bitshift.org http://www.seti.org From bill at wards.net Wed Jun 23 11:04:13 2004 From: bill at wards.net (William R Ward) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 11:04:13 -0700 Subject: Peninsula Linux Users' Group, Thursday (tomorrow), June 24, 2004 Message-ID: <16601.50717.922342.405763@komodo.home.wards.net> Sorry for any confusion, but in recycling and editing last month's announcement I forgot to change the date. The rest of the information is correct. Here is the updated date/time/location information: Date: Thursday, June 24, 2004 Time: 7:00 - 9:00 PM Location: 100 Oracle Parkway, Redwood Shores, CA 94065 Room 1op104 Again, I apologize for the mixup. --Bill. -- William R Ward bill at wards.net http://www.wards.net/~bill/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Movies are like life with all the dull parts left out." - Alfred Hitchcock From bill at wards.net Wed Jun 23 11:02:04 2004 From: bill at wards.net (William R Ward) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 11:02:04 -0700 Subject: Peninsula Linux Users' Group, Thursday (tomorrow), June 24, 2004 Message-ID: <16601.50588.242302.817067@komodo.home.wards.net> We have a meeting of the Peninsula Linux Users' Group (PenLUG) this week! Here are the details about this meeting. For more information or directions go to http://www.penlug.org/ Please join our "members" mailing list, or the "announce" list if you just want announcements of upcoming events. Follow the links from our home page. Our website is a TWiki; please feel free to create a user account and modify the website if you have something to contribute. Thanks! Date: Thursday, May 27, 2004 Time: 7:00 - 9:00 PM Location: 100 Oracle Parkway, Redwood Shores, CA 94065 Room 1op104 Conference Call: If you cannot attend in person, but would like to dial in and listen, please send mail to conferencecall at penlug.org and we will try to accomodate you. Agenda: ======= 7:00 - 8:30 PM: Presentation by Chander Kant: "Linux on Laptops - Adventures in mobile Linux computing" 8:30 - 9:00 PM: Members' Minutes 9:00 PM: Adjourn to IHOP (Belmont) for social & food time Presentation by Chander Kant ============================ Title: "Linux on Laptops - Adventures in mobile Linux computing" Over the past few years, Linux has become dominant server operating system for various applications, such as file and web serving. While Linux continues to make further in-roads at the high-end, the desktop space is now beginning to emerge. Technologies and business dynamics seem to be in place for an explosive growth of Linux on the desktop. Another recent trend has been emergence of Laptops as the key desktop platform. Year 2003 was the first year when new Laptops outsold new PCs. So, will Linux leapfrog the PC and find its home directly on the laptop? This presentation will discuss the current state of support for Linux on the laptops. We will discuss the challenges - what works, what can be made to work, and what does not work. We will consider pros and cons of various technologies - hardware, kernels, distributions etc., in making of a productive Linux laptop. Bio Chander Kant is founder and president of LinuxCertified, Inc., a leading provider of Linux laptops, training and services. Chander has been involved with technology and business side of Linux in many different projects. As a key member of the open-source community, he is very enthusiastic about enabling Linux as a mainstream operating system. Prior to founding LinuxCertified, Chander was Director of Business Development at VERITAS software, where he was responsible for high-availability clustering products. Chander was also involved in architecting high-performance Linux compute servers at SGI. Chander is a co-author of "Linux Compute Clusters", an on-going open-license book. Members' Minutes ================ Members will have an opportunity to take a few minutes to... * Describe their latest Linux discovery * Ask questions and get help from other members * Discuss Linux projects You can just stand up and talk, or give a short demo or presentation. If you need audio/visual support for your Members' Minute, please contact Bill in advance to arrange for your needs. Although it is NOT required, we like to have an idea of how many people to expect, so if possible please email rsvp at penlug.org if you are planning to attend. -- William R Ward bill at wards.net http://www.wards.net/~bill/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Movies are like life with all the dull parts left out." - Alfred Hitchcock From strata at virtual.net Wed Jun 23 13:15:39 2004 From: strata at virtual.net (Strata R Chalup) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 13:15:39 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: BOUNCE chat@baylisa.org: Not addressed to list; likely spam taboo body match "//i" at line 160 taboo body match "//" at line 249] Message-ID: <40D9E4EB.1040505@virtual.net> [Resend, as baylisa-chat at baylisa.org is not a mailing list here, it's chat at baylisa.org...] Richard, Please stop accusing Rick of "deliberately blocking" your specific posts. As I said to you in the previous bounce message I forwarded you, showing the message itself, if the mailing list is in the CC list rather than the TO field, it gets tagged as likely spam and forwarded for moderator approval. If you would like to become a member of BayLISA, I would be happy to make YOU a co-moderator of baylisa-chat so that you can approve posts in a timely fashion. Otherwise, please stop with the 'censorship' ranting. thanks, Strata -------- Original Message -------- Subject: BOUNCE chat at baylisa.org: Not addressed to list; likely spam taboo body match "//i" at line 160 taboo body match "//" at line 249 Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 12:26:15 -0700 (PDT) From: owner-chat at baylisa.org To: chat-approval at baylisa.org >From strata Wed Jun 23 12:26:11 2004 Received: from smtp808.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp808.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.187]) by www.baylisa.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id i5NJOBtm015104 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 2004 12:24:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unknown (HELO pacbell.net) (fscked at pacbell.net@67.120.105.111 with plain) by smtp808.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Jun 2004 19:24:10 -0000 Message-ID: <40D9D852.4070306 at pacbell.net> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 12:21:54 -0700 From: richard childers / kg6hac Reply-To: fscked at pacbell.net Organization: Daemonized Networking Services - http://www.daemonized.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rick Moen CC: baylisa-chat at baylisa.org, baylisa at baylisa.org, postmaster at baylisa.org Subject: Re: Sex discrimination by organizations, cabals, and has-beens References: <20040619225337.GT8293 at linuxmafia.com> <40D70EB8.1080205 at pacbell.net> <20040621223709.GB8293 at linuxmafia.com> <40D84141.6070000 at pacbell.net> <20040622165158.GO8293 at linuxmafia.com> In-Reply-To: <20040622165158.GO8293 at linuxmafia.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------000702060505040901050104" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000702060505040901050104 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rick, Thank you for notifying me that you have recommended that the BayLISA Board of Directors bar me for ever and ever and ever. I am trembling in my Birkenstocks, at the mere thought. If I wanted to, I could, of course, re-subscribe, under another name. Email addresses aren't just cheap; they are free. There's little of value, though ... outside of contact with a peer group, that occasionally has aspects that make it resemble a lynch mob. I don't want to stoop to fraud in order to defeat fraudulent behavior - I've found explaining to people, in writing, why I won't have anything to do with a specific individual, is much more effective. If I want to, I can join the group, directly, under a pseudonym, or organizational name. I can even join under my own name, watch your organization refuse the membership, and use it all as fodder for public discussion of public policy. You are a public organization, after all. The rules that control your organization's conduct are public policy. Maybe your organization's conduct violates some law somewhere ... maybe not. Maybe it did when you engaged in the behavior, but the law isn't on the books any more, and so you're not seeing the law that I saw. Maybe you only searched codes and neglected to search departmental regulations; or case histories. I'm not obligated to teach you anything about legal research; particularly under the current circumstances. The fact is, it's not going to make -you-, or the leadership, or the organization, or the acronym 'LISA' look very professional, to be associated with such a question - regardles of the answer. I predict the Bay Area LISA leadership will be replaced. High time, in my opinion. If I want to, I can write an article about the events, quote the emails, and link it with the current main story at www.orafraud.org, as one illustration of the sort of abuse I've been on the receiving end of. If no one cares, why, then, you have nothing to worry about, because no one will bother reading. Right? The fact is that you can't handle criticism. When faced with it you resort to interfering with channels of communication. I have a legitimate objection to that. Each time I Cc: my response to this debate to chat-baylisa at baylisa.org, it is blocked by your pathetic cabal. That's the fact. That's a loser's approach - because it broadcasts, to everyone, your cabal's fear that you cannot win the debate when it is conducted openly, and must resort to distorting policies against ad hominem attacks, in favor of engaging in your own attacks, while preventing a free discussion of issues that reflect poorly upon the leadership. Perhaps you're wondering if I have the original emails. It's likely that you do not; and that is an indicator of how well the board of directors manages their responsibilities ... isn't it? You're not even sure what the Subject: of the messages were ... never mind the contents. Heh, heh. I am utterly unimpressed by your recommendations. Your own personal conduct, as well as the conduct of the group you represent - with a few exceptions, here and there - has been more suggestive of a bunch of tin horn dictators, than it is of people who understand democratic process, respect its operation, and value the opinion of the loyal opposition. Dubious regards, -- richard Rick Moen wrote: >Quoting richard childers / kg6hac (fscked at pacbell.net): > > > >>If you wish to leap to conclusions, that's your lookout. >> >> > >Wait, are you saying you _can_ support your allegation of fact? No? >Make up your mind. > >I do have a tentative conclusion: That you pulled that assertion (about >what it's supposedly illegal for BayLISA to do) strictly out of >/dev/ass, based on negligible acquaintance with applicable statutes. >If you have evidence to the contrary, I'll be glad to hear it -- but >won't be holding my breath, since I _have_ researched that body of law. > >Meanwhile, I have suggested to the Board that you be summarily dropped >from babelisa, partly to (again) enforce that mailing list's membership >policy, and partly because it's just a bad idea to let BayLISA be >pushed around by cranks -- let alone ones who've _never even bothered_ >to become BayLISA members. > >The Board may or may not care enough to even consider my suggestion, let >alone act on it -- we really have more important things to do -- but now >might be a really good time for you to provide that legal citation, in >the almost unfathomably unlikely event of your having anything >substantive to say on the subject. > > > -- Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services 945 Taraval Street, #105 San Francisco, CA 94116 USA [011.]1.415.759.5571 http://www.daemonized.com -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) mQGiBECGpfsRBACoPJJfIIrWAqjlW92TtYCtY//e7OW8alWylr/1ygtSQzjCCdvC Ysa0fCcx01UenlWV+5YY/zC7KPsX2rQUKAs20fqs9et74dmgMGOj0vMjTzWEs29G FyAsIRSpFioa8zzrjXEUVnU6OFaD9a9eaC+LSTCiKgXjbQySDKM5T1c+vwCg8W3Y RZ83LRIUULGMPlY6zS4fQwUEAIIiTHDdWpbE+HeREJwH+4eDpGVf76XtNlOMXrt9 tJ3ExL+9ezLulg1nCrOYodOB7TEZqzV40R7emDZSX0hI9QEBCv6nW5aDVpw/bf+q UEHwxrUvE2LBi35hoqR2QwqNlagOauSorWj8Qm/31luxJVeLVy1A1czp6B/mvG1T co03A/9a5kzEAebJ5TzWXQC2/4gu/osXQnrw9B9FFpYOtLc0MNQuAFt8VLn5yO5Q 8T58w+FQvFI5FqzI5URmjQeEyWWuyIechknk4RnwIO1UPVjgRTuNgf9/TvNNfqpa aVlbNp+AG21D6VqsFN2zJFFJeUqiYdXw6i+ESL3SZRymIhwYWrQ8UmljaGFyZCBB IENoaWxkZXJzICh3d3cuZGFlbW9uaXplZC5jb20pIDxmc2NrZWRAcGFjYmVsbC5u ZXQ+iF4EExECAB4FAkCGpfsCGwMGCwkIBwMCAxUCAwMWAgECHgECF4AACgkQjGqW TlNTP66KzQCgjf0SQbiK1rgu7hRsmLPSSaGF7X8AoL7Qw/E9kTZr0fntP0XXEnk/ q6nRuQINBECGpvkQCADFzFq+kYbk+KTIhcVBTjTWDbBnjGgmuGR3LGp9hOd6W9SJ i4GD5184ZnMbEgvDZcDEGDNgMcU+f1girwYI2v/o7QA7VQ5bpUbnfOBytzO+bvd7 uCOyJltg8AG5MFLxfhAMHofpNxGlFTEXdVp4M9xyBB+hdLHbJNJqkMGPf+iCUf1W Q86KncU2AK4Sf9I+WYBZwkjaIhi9dQzeEX1c0Um6LxXSBtkjZprIk1M13gVaIJ6E dDN6hrSMbXZL+7yURw38vHXCtRJAKEOyW178rI8MzJzvVNhobvC62uEWD9Idz8sH 5A06fqb2fKJYLQ1keGUpb/qpny7oTmAe0Hx9jOM7AAMGCACdTe1M4U++/7/OVGip 1gnWEtMhHeQQbS7KPh1w8/1kvs5Mml6uGYQI44lKTDP7OHJQ9hIT/+5tfKPHIPhU M/7Mqa8y81c/AK+WUOyY9+uZ0zUxFGMqeU9z5iqJFWSi9QR/f5q/khfmqi5RFVyQ nnVhxBMB8pY1vZHV1CoL7NLK4c/N8mpwCiZ57LTsP8pLfDMWF/OopmM2ulzlfWTr anAdxQohenq/zTgSySX/VGZYSYvyAoXTRuU4USAVGWcUQPnVooA1N7lZP3pawjNP QMSukx9jI1673BPsPXxyQZ1PmmPt9eHKI0G0hNJG+FCmSRLNT/R7hqTzTUmpgMWM yyWPiEkEGBECAAkFAkCGpvkCGwwACgkQjGqWTlNTP642KACeITHq0b42P3oMX7Nj F5U3EaqCgYoAn3HxUB7ELB6vMUugW4aSmZpBJOR6 =ZaJO -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- --------------000702060505040901050104 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rick,


Thank you for notifying me that you have recommended that the BayLISA Board of Directors bar me for ever and ever and ever. I am trembling in my Birkenstocks, at the mere thought.

If I wanted to, I could, of  course, re-subscribe, under another name. Email addresses aren't just cheap; they are free. There's little of value, though ... outside of contact with a peer group, that occasionally has aspects that make it resemble a lynch mob. I don't want to stoop to fraud in order to defeat fraudulent behavior - I've found explaining to people, in writing, why I won't have anything to do with a specific individual, is much more effective.

If I want to, I can join the group, directly, under a pseudonym, or organizational name. I can even join under my own name, watch your organization refuse the membership, and use it all as fodder for public discussion of public policy. You are a public organization, after all. The rules that control your organization's conduct are public policy.

Maybe your organization's conduct violates some law somewhere ... maybe not. Maybe it did when you engaged in the behavior, but the law isn't on the books any more, and so you're not seeing the law that I saw.

Maybe you only searched codes and neglected to search departmental regulations; or case histories. I'm not obligated to teach you anything about legal research; particularly under the current circumstances.

The fact is, it's not going to make -you-, or the leadership, or the organization, or the acronym 'LISA' look very professional, to be associated with such a question - regardles of the answer. I predict the Bay Area LISA leadership will be replaced. High time, in my opinion.

If I want to, I can write an article about the events, quote the emails, and link it with the current main story at www.orafraud.org, as one illustration of the sort of abuse I've been on the receiving end of. If no one cares, why, then, you have nothing to worry about, because no one will bother reading. Right?


The fact is that you can't handle criticism. When faced with it you resort to interfering with channels of communication. I have a legitimate objection to that.

Each time I Cc: my response to this debate to chat-baylisa at baylisa.org, it is blocked by your pathetic cabal. That's the fact.

That's a loser's approach - because it broadcasts, to everyone, your cabal's fear that you cannot win the debate when it is conducted openly, and must resort to distorting policies against ad hominem attacks, in favor of engaging in your own attacks, while preventing a free discussion of issues that reflect poorly upon the leadership.


Perhaps you're wondering if I have the original emails. It's likely that you do not; and that is an indicator of how well the board of directors manages their responsibilities ... isn't it? You're not even sure what the Subject: of the messages were ... never mind the contents. Heh, heh.


I am utterly unimpressed by your recommendations. Your own personal conduct, as well as the conduct of the group you represent - with a few exceptions, here and there - has been more suggestive of a bunch of tin horn dictators, than it is of people who understand democratic process, respect its operation, and value the opinion of the loyal opposition.


Dubious regards,

-- richard


Rick Moen wrote:
Quoting richard childers / kg6hac (fscked at pacbell.net):

   
If you wish to leap to conclusions, that's your lookout.
     

Wait, are you saying you _can_ support your allegation of fact?  No?
Make up your mind.

I do have a tentative conclusion:  That you pulled that assertion (about
what it's supposedly illegal for BayLISA to do) strictly out of
/dev/ass, based on negligible acquaintance with applicable statutes.
If you have evidence to the contrary, I'll be glad to hear it -- but
won't be holding my breath, since I _have_ researched that body of law.

Meanwhile, I have suggested to the Board that you be summarily dropped
from babelisa, partly to (again) enforce that mailing list's membership
policy, and partly because it's just a bad idea to let BayLISA be
pushed around by cranks -- let alone ones who've _never even bothered_
to become BayLISA members.

The Board may or may not care enough to even consider my suggestion, let
alone act on it -- we really have more important things to do -- but now
might be a really good time for you to provide that legal citation, in
the almost unfathomably unlikely event of your having anything
substantive to say on the subject.

   

--

Richard Childers / Senior Engineer
Daemonized Networking Services
945 Taraval Street, #105
San Francisco, CA 94116 USA
[011.]1.415.759.5571
http://www.daemonized.com

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--------------000702060505040901050104-- -- ======================================================================== Strata Rose Chalup [KF6NBZ] strata "@" virtual.net VirtualNet Consulting http://www.virtual.net/ ** Project Management & Architecture for ISP/ASP Systems Integration ** ========================================================================= From rick at linuxmafia.com Wed Jun 23 13:08:21 2004 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 13:08:21 -0700 Subject: Crank patrol In-Reply-To: <40D9D852.4070306@pacbell.net> References: <20040619225337.GT8293@linuxmafia.com> <40D70EB8.1080205@pacbell.net> <20040621223709.GB8293@linuxmafia.com> <40D84141.6070000@pacbell.net> <20040622165158.GO8293@linuxmafia.com> <40D9D852.4070306@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20040623200821.GZ8293@linuxmafia.com> Quoting richard childers / kg6hac (fscked at pacbell.net): > Thank you for notifying me that you have recommended that the BayLISA > Board of Directors bar me for ever and ever and ever. You just can't get _anything_ right, can you? > If I wanted to, I could, of course, re-subscribe, under another name. Sure, you could be a jerk in diverse ways for extended periods up to the limits of your and other people's stamina. But we already knew that. > I don't want to stoop to fraud.... I'm glad your lack of ethics doesn't extend much past posting other people's private e-mail to public mailing lists, then. > If I want to, I can join the group.... I'm reasonably confident that your cheque would be refused without comment. Basically, you're unwanted for reasons you yourself have made amply clear to all -- though nobody wants to waste much time on you. The fact that you've never at any time attempted to join the group merely makes things cleaner -- along with pointing out the cheekiness of your interminable stream of semi-coherent complaints. > Maybe your organization's conduct violates some law somewhere ... maybe > not. Well, I've already politely called bullshit on your past legal threat, and so you can imagine that nobody's going to pay much attention to current or future ones. I'd say you've pulled your last bluff, here. > I'm not obligated to teach you anything about legal research.... Or able, for that matter. > The fact is... ...that you've wasted enough time. > If I want to, I can write an article.... And yet nobody cares. > The fact is that you can't handle criticism. The fact is that you've said nothing at stupendous length and metaphorically high volume. > Each time I Cc: my response to this debate to chat-baylisa at baylisa.org, > it is blocked by your pathetic cabal. That's the fact. It's a non-existent address, idiot. -- Cheers, Rick Moen "vi is my shepherd; I shall not font." rick at linuxmafia.com -- Psalm 0.1 beta From lanning at lanning.cc Wed Jun 23 15:26:10 2004 From: lanning at lanning.cc (Robert Hajime Lanning) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 15:26:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fwd: BOUNCE chat@baylisa.org: Not addressed to list; likely spam taboo body match '//i' at line 160 taboo body match '//' at line 249] In-Reply-To: <40D9E4EB.1040505@virtual.net> References: <40D9E4EB.1040505@virtual.net> Message-ID: <47327.192.55.4.36.1088029570.squirrel@192.55.4.36> Someone smack Rich. He should know better than posting HTML formated emails to a public mailing list. > From: richard childers / kg6hac > Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > > content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1"> > > > > Rick,
>
>
-- END OF LINE -MCP From rick at linuxmafia.com Wed Jun 23 15:45:52 2004 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 15:45:52 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: BOUNCE chat@baylisa.org: Not addressed to list; likely spam taboo body match '//i' at line 160 taboo body match '//' at line 249] In-Reply-To: <47327.192.55.4.36.1088029570.squirrel@192.55.4.36> References: <40D9E4EB.1040505@virtual.net> <47327.192.55.4.36.1088029570.squirrel@192.55.4.36> Message-ID: <20040623224552.GB8293@linuxmafia.com> ['Ware Reply-To.] Quoting Robert Hajime Lanning (lanning at lanning.cc): > Someone smack Rich. He should know better than posting HTML > formatted emails to a public mailing list. I recall him explaining that it would imperil his precious bodily fluids, or something. -- Helpfully, "This is Unix. Stop acting so helpless." Rick Moen -- D.J. Bernstein rick at linuxmafia.com From rsr at inorganic.org Wed Jun 23 18:33:24 2004 From: rsr at inorganic.org (Roy S. Rapoport) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 18:33:24 -0700 Subject: Imminent Death of BayLISA / July Board Meeting Invitation In-Reply-To: References: <40CF59E9.4050805@arrl.net> Message-ID: <20040624013324.GB21001@puppy.inorganic.org> On Wed, Jun 16, 2004 at 12:41:22PM -0700, Michael T. Halligan wrote: > > If some of you had not noticed, but Goggle is the worst case hear > > in the valley. They are constantly sending out "ghost jobs." > > > > >From a friend of mine at Google : > > -- > Contrary to popular belief, Google IS actually hiring, we just have > ridiculously high standards. I myself only got hired because of a > referral. If you don't have either a degree, or 2x as much experience as > the job posting and a half dozen delivered papers/articles to your name, > don't bother. > -- A few more notes based on some experience and talking to people who work there (I do not work at Google, BTW): 1. Google is not likely the kind of company where you can take a look at the requirements and think "Oh, I can build up to that pretty quickly." I'm pretty much in that category fairly often -- I've got enough experience that I tend to consider posted requirements advisory, rather than required. VPN? Eh. Done it before, could do it again. That sort of thing. Apply for positions that you think you could do in your sleep; 2. Assume everyone you talk to at Google will be smarter than you (this is probably a safe assumption anyway); 3. Whatever you do, try to get to eat lunch at their cafeteria as part of the interview process ("I'm sorry, I'm only available 11am to 3pm. Can we roll lunch into this?") :) 4. If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. If you'd like, I can show you my first two rejection letters. I'm working on my third. -roy From ryoohki at ryoohki.org Wed Jun 23 18:40:06 2004 From: ryoohki at ryoohki.org (Michael Cheselka) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 18:40:06 -0700 Subject: baylisa video streaming (was Re: writeups) In-Reply-To: References: <20040618201714.F10B4139335@puzzle.pobox.com> <40D48D36.9060709@virtual.net> Message-ID: <1088041206.40da30f6cd151@webmail.namezero.com> We must address the need not to chill expression. It's been so far so good. Michael Cheselka -- When in the Potemkin Wired be a Potemkin Lain. Quoting Jim Hickstein : > We could certainly do something on a going-forward basis, with or > without a > written release. At least people would know this was part of the > deal, and > we wouldn't be going back and changing history on them. > > Also, just in my opinion, since the talks are highly technical, and > technology changes so fast, they really do decay very quickly in > relevance. > One might wish to review Larry Wall playing the violin (so I hear), > but the > content of his talk on that occasion probably isn't very important to > our > membership today. The CHM, maybe, and we should think about > preserving the > library, but probably not distributing it. From chuck+baylisa at snew.com Wed Jun 23 23:14:04 2004 From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 02:14:04 -0400 Subject: Imminent Death of BayLISA / July Board Meeting Invitation In-Reply-To: <20040624013324.GB21001@puppy.inorganic.org> References: <40CF59E9.4050805@arrl.net> <20040624013324.GB21001@puppy.inorganic.org> Message-ID: <20040624061404.GA24859@2004.snew.com> Quoting Roy S. Rapoport (rsr at inorganic.org): > On Wed, Jun 16, 2004 at 12:41:22PM -0700, Michael T. Halligan wrote: ... > 2. Assume everyone you talk to at Google will be smarter than you (this is > probably a safe assumption anyway); You've struck a peeve. And I am compelled, perhaps inadvisadely, to vent (knowing full well that inadvisadely is not a word. irregardless*): I've found this same behaviour at Windows (a friend worked there and I hung out some). The Office folks were hugely impressed with themselves. They seemed really upset that my Zenith XT class laptop that ran DR-DOS ("some MSDOS clone, is it?") and Wordperfect and Quattro (want QuattroPro for BSD a lot). "But how can you run a PC without Microsoft software?" (they didn't quite hear "quite reliably, thanks") I find the view that they are smarter than you common among PhD's and academics.. Perhaps it's an implicit "I spent 6 years in academia surrounding myself with people who taught me the importance of my education and studying with people who study about the field." Ok, that said, a best friend is a perpetual PhD candidate at UCB. But I tire quickly with those who are so terribly impressed with themselves that they must impose the credentials on others. Perhaps it was some childhood spent in cambridge. Needless to say, there were parts of Good Will Hunting I enjoyed tremendously (& it wasn't the struggle to maintain the same wicked bad accent through a scene). It was mirrored by a friend who went from high school to lighting and doing some lighting design on Broadway who, at 22 and well sought after, applied to NYU for a theater degree. He was told that there was "no way [he] could credit out of the basic classes" and that he'd have to sit through freshman "this is a LAMP. Let's all say it LLLAAMMMPPP. And the BULB goes into it." He sat in on a masters class on technical design and corrected them "well, sure, in THEORY light falls of as a square of the distance, but as soon as you have things on the stage or effects like fog, your theory all falls to crap." They were smarter than him. So he went back to Broadway and film and even hired of couple of them once they finished school. > 4. If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. If you'd like, I can > show you my first two rejection letters. I'm working on my third. I had a friend, a cartoonist, who was published in several places but had a wall plastered with New Yorker rejection slips. Some sort of fetish. *yes, I know. Look up "irony" too. From strata at virtual.net Wed Jun 23 23:32:16 2004 From: strata at virtual.net (Strata R Chalup) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:32:16 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: BOUNCE chat@baylisa.org: Not addressed to list; likely spam taboo body match "//i" at line 160 taboo body match "//" at line 249] In-Reply-To: <40DA0DCA.8050104@pacbell.net> References: <40D9E42F.4040407@virtual.net> <40DA0DCA.8050104@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <40DA7570.7040705@virtual.net> Postmaster, can you please confirm that there are no manual interventions or programmatic mechanisms that are treating Childers' mail differently from any other mail received to the lists? Richard, YOU are the one employing deliberate misrepresentation of facts, and this is your last warning. You have completely exhausted my personal patience, and I seem to be in the extremely tiny minority of people who feel that you may have something to offer here. If you choose to continue trying to merely annoy, rather than participate here, there is no reason we should tolerate your ceaseless antagonism presence. I've given you ample opportunity to redeem yourself, and you don't seem interested. So: One more outburst, and you are OFF the list community here. Period. You want arbitrary, draconian, unreasonable censorship, you got it. We'll make an honest man of you yet, by pandering to your worst defamations. At least we'll have a little peace and quiet around here. _Strata richard childers / kg6hac wrote: > There's no excuse for it - and so there is no way out, for those whom > block others' messages, but to misrepresent the facts. -- ======================================================================== Strata Rose Chalup [KF6NBZ] strata "@" virtual.net VirtualNet Consulting http://www.virtual.net/ ** Project Management & Architecture for ISP/ASP Systems Integration ** ========================================================================= From michael at halligan.org Wed Jun 23 23:50:49 2004 From: michael at halligan.org (Michael T. Halligan) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:50:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Remote install of solaris on a 220R Message-ID: Solaris/Sun hardware is by far not my forte, I'm not really too interested in it to be honest.. I've stumbled upon a contract that's more of a favor to a friend, that will have me installing, patching, and making "production-ready" a few 220Rs .. Any caveats? My thoughts are to just have him put the media into the box, and I'll do it all remotely through the LOM.. ------------------- Michael T. Halligan Chief Geek Halligan Infrastructure Designs. http://www.halligan.org/ 3158 Mission St. #3 San Francisco, CA 94110 (415) 724.7998 - Mobile From rsr at inorganic.org Thu Jun 24 00:22:31 2004 From: rsr at inorganic.org (Roy S. Rapoport) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 00:22:31 -0700 Subject: Imminent Death of BayLISA / July Board Meeting Invitation In-Reply-To: <20040624061404.GA24859@2004.snew.com> References: <40CF59E9.4050805@arrl.net> <20040624013324.GB21001@puppy.inorganic.org> <20040624061404.GA24859@2004.snew.com> Message-ID: <20040624072231.GB29444@puppy.inorganic.org> On Thu, Jun 24, 2004 at 02:14:04AM -0400, Chuck Yerkes wrote: > Quoting Roy S. Rapoport (rsr at inorganic.org): [...] > > 2. Assume everyone you talk to at Google will be smarter than you (this is > > probably a safe assumption anyway); > > You've struck a peeve. And I am compelled, perhaps inadvisadely, > to vent (knowing full well that inadvisadely is not a word. irregardless*): [...] > I find the view that they are smarter than you common among PhD's > and academics.. Perhaps it's an implicit "I spent 6 years in > academia surrounding myself with people who taught me the importance > of my education and studying with people who study about the field." > > Ok, that said, a best friend is a perpetual PhD candidate at UCB. > > But I tire quickly with those who are so terribly impressed with > themselves that they must impose the credentials on others. That's ... not exactly what I meant. Some of the smartest people I've known have also been some of the most humble people I've known (some of them, of course, have been arrogant jerks :) ). There's a large difference between "look at me, I'm so smart" and someone who really is smart enough to really, really challenge you. A smart person interviewing you will make the interview about *you*, rather than them. -roy From alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com Thu Jun 24 01:36:22 2004 From: alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com (Alvin Oga) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 01:36:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PhD -- Re: Imminent Death of BayLISA / July Board Meeting Invitation In-Reply-To: <20040624072231.GB29444@puppy.inorganic.org> Message-ID: hi ya - fun subject On Thu, 24 Jun 2004, Roy S. Rapoport wrote: > > You've struck a peeve. And I am compelled, perhaps inadvisadely, > > to vent (knowing full well that inadvisadely is not a word. irregardless*): those are "good" words chuck :-) > Some of the smartest people I've known have also been some of the most > humble people I've known yup ... pointing my finger to the (real) diplomat that has a PhD in math, physics, chemistry all by the time he was 22 and his current work stuff was doing something totally different than his "studies" - probably the most humble ez going guy there is usually, smart folks just get the "job done" reasonably correctly the ones that need help sometimes, just need one or two things clarified are equally smart, it takes some balls to ask "dumb questions" or obvious questions to avoid going down the wrong path - not everybody can have a iq of 300 those that constantly need help are sometimes just lazy to do things for themself ( lazy are the ones that ask questions w/o doing at least a google search ) - i know lots of these PhDs that makes me wonder where and how they earned their PhD, most of whom don't do "engineering anymore" ( gee, i wonder why ) those that have PhD, or any degree, or just the willingness to learn another discipline usually will quickly pick things up having 0, 1 or 3 degrees makes no difference, it's all attitude and interaction c ya alvin From rick at linuxmafia.com Thu Jun 24 08:24:09 2004 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 08:24:09 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: BOUNCE chat@baylisa.org: Not addressed to list; likely spam taboo body match "//i" at line 160 taboo body match "//" at line 249] In-Reply-To: <40DA7570.7040705@virtual.net> References: <40D9E42F.4040407@virtual.net> <40DA0DCA.8050104@pacbell.net> <40DA7570.7040705@virtual.net> Message-ID: <20040624152409.GG8293@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Strata R Chalup (strata at virtual.net): > Postmaster, can you please confirm that there are no manual > interventions or programmatic mechanisms that are treating > Childers' mail differently from any other mail received to > the lists? We actually did that once before, and I really don't think we need waste the time again. Mr. Childers has purported in the past to be unable to even distinguish between HTML-formatted mail and inline-included URLs -- and his latest "you're censoring me on the chat list" post got the address of chat at baylisa.org wrong in not one but two different ways. It's therefore likely that he simply either cannot or will not deal with mail competently; thus his cries of persecution when he screws up. I see no special reason to throw the guy off anything -- except for dropping him from "babelisa", of course. It's mildly embarrassing that he was able to bluster his way onto a women-only sysadmin discussion list using bogus legal threats, and should be corrected. -- Cheers, "Transported to a surreal landscape, a young girl kills the first Rick Moen woman she meets, and then teams up with three complete strangers rick at linuxmafia.com to kill again." -- Rick Polito's That TV Guy column, describing the movie _The Wizard of Oz_ From david at catwhisker.org Thu Jun 24 07:15:57 2004 From: david at catwhisker.org (David Wolfskill) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 07:15:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fwd: BOUNCE chat@baylisa.org: Not addressed to list; likely spam taboo body match "//i" at line 160 taboo body match "//" at line 249] In-Reply-To: <40DA7570.7040705@virtual.net> Message-ID: <200406241415.i5OEFvx7059951@bunrab.catwhisker.org> [Sorry about the noise; in my defense, I was publicly requested to respond. -- postmaster@] >From strata at virtual.net Wed Jun 23 23:28:06 2004 >Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:32:16 -0700 >From: Strata R Chalup >Reply-To: strata at virtual.net >To: fscked at pacbell.net, postmaster at baylisa.org, blw at baylisa.org, > baylisa-chat at baylisa.org, baylisa at baylisa.org >Postmaster, can you please confirm that there are no manual >interventions or programmatic mechanisms that are treating >Childers' mail differently from any other mail received to >the lists? Sure. The only issues that prevented the messages in question from being posted automatically were (as noted in the Subject:): * The use of a Bcc: (or its equivalent, a recipient address specified in the envelope, but not present either in the To: or the Cc: header) in mail to the list in question. * The use of the (case-insensitive) string "". * The use of the HTML comments. The main reasons HTML messages are required to be manually vetted before being sent are: * It's a cheap way to check for certain types of spam, worms, and viruses. * Some subscribers have their MTAs configured to reject HTML messages, so the list owner gets to deal with the bounces if HTML messages go out on the list(s) in question. Further, it is my considered opinion that within the BayLISA community, there is virtually no need to send messages marked up as HTML via mail to other members of the BayLISA community as such. (What folks do with email in private is their business, of course.) Finally, the correspondent in question has been informed on multiple occasions that HTML messages are not welcome in BayLISA mailing lists. After having contributed to such "informing" efforts personally on several occasions, I have decided that additional notificatons are so unlikely to have any beneficial effect that it is not worth my time to send them. Accordingly, if a previously-warned correspondent's messages are automatically diverted to a list owner for manual intervention, and at least one of the reasons for the diversion is a reason that has been explained at length already, I no longer correspond with the correspondent about the matter, but delete the message and get on with my life. Said correspondent has demonstrated that if he posts in plain text, his messages do get through. (The BayLISA lists are, in fact, archived, though those archives are not currently publicly available. For that matter, messages sent to postmaster at baylisa.org are also archived similarly.) Peace, david (current hat: postmaster at baylisa.org) -- David H. Wolfskill david at catwhisker.org I do not "unsubscribe" from email "services" to which I have not explicitly subscribed. Rather, I block spammers' access to SMTP servers I control, and encourage others who are in a position to do so to do likewise. From ulf at Alameda.net Thu Jun 24 10:14:58 2004 From: ulf at Alameda.net (Ulf Zimmermann) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 10:14:58 -0700 Subject: Remote install of solaris on a 220R In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040624171458.GS41460@seven.alameda.net> On Wed, Jun 23, 2004 at 11:50:49PM -0700, Michael T. Halligan wrote: > Solaris/Sun hardware is by far not my forte, I'm not really too > interested in it to be honest.. I've stumbled upon a contract that's > more of a favor to a friend, that will have me installing, patching, and > making "production-ready" a few 220Rs .. Any caveats? My thoughts are to > just have him put the media into the box, and I'll do it all remotely > through the LOM.. Do one via media install, then setting up a jumpstart server is easy to install the rest. -- Regards, Ulf. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-865-0204 You can find my resume at: http://seven.Alameda.net/~ulf/resume.html From lanning at monsoonwind.com Thu Jun 24 11:25:44 2004 From: lanning at monsoonwind.com (Robert Hajime Lanning) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 11:25:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Remote install of solaris on a 220R In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44830.192.168.128.13.1088101544.squirrel@192.168.128.13> E220R does not have LOM. You can halt the OS to the PROM but if the machine locks, you need someone to turn the key. (Pun not intended.) > Solaris/Sun hardware is by far not my forte, I'm not really too > interested in it to be honest.. I've stumbled upon a contract that's > more of a favor to a friend, that will have me installing, patching, > and > making "production-ready" a few 220Rs .. Any caveats? My thoughts are > to > just have him put the media into the box, and I'll do it all remotely > through the LOM.. -- END OF LINE -MCP From vince at litrium.com Thu Jun 24 17:12:43 2004 From: vince at litrium.com (Vince Hoang) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 14:12:43 -1000 Subject: [Fwd: BOUNCE chat@baylisa.org: Not addressed to list; likely spam taboo body match "//i" at line 160 taboo body match "//" at line 249] In-Reply-To: <200406241415.i5OEFvx7059951@bunrab.catwhisker.org> References: <40DA7570.7040705@virtual.net> <200406241415.i5OEFvx7059951@bunrab.catwhisker.org> Message-ID: <20040625001243.GQ15066@anarchy.com> (Cc: list trimmed) On Thu, Jun 24, 2004 at 07:15:57AM -0700, David Wolfskill wrote: > The main reasons HTML messages are required to be manually > vetted before being sent are: > > * It's a cheap way to check for certain types of spam, worms, > and viruses. > > * Some subscribers have their MTAs configured to reject HTML > messages, so the list owner gets to deal with the bounces if > HTML messages go out on the list(s) in question. Then do not rely on a human to process it. Set a policy to bounce the message or filter the message through something like demime, and the troll will have one less leg to stand on. -Vince From alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com Thu Jun 24 17:48:00 2004 From: alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com (Alvin Oga) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 17:48:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: html - Re: [Fwd: BOUNCE chat@baylisa.org: Not addressed to list; likely spam In-Reply-To: <20040625001243.GQ15066@anarchy.com> Message-ID: hi ya On Thu, 24 Jun 2004, Vince Hoang wrote: > Then do not rely on a human to process it. Set a policy to bounce > the message or filter the message through something like demime, > and the troll will have one less leg to stand on. that implies you received the html-based email i prefer bouncing/rejecting it at smtp time, have sendmail/exim/postfix reject html-based emails ( saves a few electrons from having to come all this way only to go the deep black hole ) and the automated reply sent to the sender will indicate why it was sent back to them c ya alvin From k6dlc at arrl.net Thu Jun 24 18:30:27 2004 From: k6dlc at arrl.net (Daniel Curry) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 18:30:27 -0700 Subject: Looking for a position Message-ID: <40DB8033.1000006@arrl.net> I thought I would change the subject. I could use some help on landing a position in security, system admin., or management. Thank you. -- Daniel Curry AD5A 96DC 7556 A020 B8E7 0E4D 5D5E 9BA5 C83E 8C92 From ddowdle at leopard.net Thu Jun 24 18:25:14 2004 From: ddowdle at leopard.net (David M. Dowdle) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 18:25:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Remote install of solaris on a 220R In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's a PITA, especially if you want to try stipping the system down to only install the minimums. Don't bother, install everything, then uninstall things. You'll save yourself hours of headaches if you don't know solaris interdependacnies backwards and forwards. The solaris installer/package manager is the worst I've ever seen (and you've heard me bitch about RedHat's. this makes RH's look like a god). The console definitions are 'odd', I've never figured out what it thinks it is, best I can advise is turn flow control off. You're likely to loose control of the box 2-3 times untill you learn how it likes to be talked to. You need a newer version of solaris 8 to support the 220R. The original (think first year's worth) will install, but it won't be able to boot. The documentation with the 220R should say what REV is required, assuming it wasn't purchased with the box. Depending on how many boxes it is, dd'ing the drives may be faster than setting up a one-time jumpstart server. FYI the console connecter is an RJ-48, it's pinout differs from a Cisco or any other rj-48 console connecter I've found. The pinout is avail on SunSolve, buried deeply of course. On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, Michael T. Halligan wrote: > Solaris/Sun hardware is by far not my forte, I'm not really too > interested in it to be honest.. I've stumbled upon a contract that's > more of a favor to a friend, that will have me installing, patching, and > making "production-ready" a few 220Rs .. Any caveats? My thoughts are to > just have him put the media into the box, and I'll do it all remotely > through the LOM.. > > > > > ------------------- > Michael T. Halligan > Chief Geek > Halligan Infrastructure Designs. > http://www.halligan.org/ > 3158 Mission St. #3 > San Francisco, CA 94110 > (415) 724.7998 - Mobile > From michael at halligan.org Thu Jun 24 19:25:14 2004 From: michael at halligan.org (Michael T. Halligan) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 19:25:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Remote install of solaris on a 220R In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wow. thanks for the heads up, Dave.. My thoughts at this point is if the contract actually goes through, I'm having them ship the servers to me and rebuild them... Heh. I've finally given up on redhat.. at my day-gig we're redhat ES, soon with provisioning server, but in my company, it's debian all the way. And sunsolve, I think I've long given up on sun's website.. For pinouts, stokely is the place to go.. > It's a PITA, especially if you want to try stipping the system down to > only install the minimums. Don't bother, install everything, then > uninstall things. You'll save yourself hours of headaches if you don't > know solaris interdependacnies backwards and forwards. The solaris > installer/package manager is the worst I've ever seen (and you've heard me > bitch about RedHat's. this makes RH's look like a god). > > The console definitions are 'odd', I've never figured out what it thinks > it is, best I can advise is turn flow control off. > > You're likely to loose control of the box 2-3 times untill you learn how > it likes to be talked to. > > You need a newer version of solaris 8 to support the 220R. The original > (think first year's worth) will install, but it won't be able to boot. The > documentation with the 220R should say what REV is required, assuming it > wasn't purchased with the box. > > Depending on how many boxes it is, dd'ing the drives may be faster than > setting up a one-time jumpstart server. > > FYI the console connecter is an RJ-48, it's pinout differs from a Cisco or > any other rj-48 console connecter I've found. The pinout is avail on > SunSolve, buried deeply of course. ------------------- Michael T. Halligan Chief Geek Halligan Infrastructure Designs. http://www.halligan.org/ 3158 Mission St. #3 San Francisco, CA 94110 (415) 724.7998 - Mobile From jxh at jxh.com Thu Jun 24 20:05:10 2004 From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 22:05:10 -0500 Subject: Remote install of solaris on a 220R In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Heh. I've finally given up on redhat.. at my day-gig we're redhat > ES, soon with provisioning server, but in my company, it's debian > all the way. We ship an old RedHat inside a company-branded box we sell, in the (outdated) hope that they can buy support from RedHat if they want it. We haven't updated to ES yet. We need to do something. I love Debian and use it myself every chance I get (having spent the effort to get up the first part of the learning curve, I find that it rocks), but the boss needs someone commercial to take the bla..., uh support work. Or thinks he does. What should I do? (Talk about changing the subject....) > And sunsolve, I think I've long given up on sun's website.. For > pinouts, stokely is the place to go.. Celeste will be pleased to hear that. From gwen at reptiles.org Thu Jun 24 20:13:23 2004 From: gwen at reptiles.org (Gwendolynn ferch Elydyr) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 23:13:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Looking for a position In-Reply-To: <40DB8033.1000006@arrl.net> Message-ID: <20040624230906.Q1223-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> On Thu, 24 Jun 2004, Daniel Curry wrote: > I thought I would change the subject. I could use some > help on landing a position in security, system admin., or management. Couldn't we all? *grin* Presuming that you're not trolling here, are you asking for help tuning your resume, making contacts/networking, just letting us all know that you're looking for work, or what? Presuming that you're looking for work, What have you tried, and how has it worked? Where are you seeing failures? [are you not able to find jobs that match your skills? Are you having problems getting to the interview stage? Are you getting to the interview stage, and having things go horribly? Is there a mismatch in your financial expectations and those of the business?]. You've listed some fairly broad categories, and nothing at all about your skillset, or the level that you're looking at, either ;> It would help us help you [to help yourself, even], if you'd include more detail about what you're actually tyring to accomplish ;> cheers! ========================================================================== "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now." From ddunham at taos.com Thu Jun 24 21:05:41 2004 From: ddunham at taos.com (Darren Dunham) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 21:05:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Remote install of solaris on a 220R Message-ID: <200406250405.VAA14951@redwood.taos.com> > The console definitions are 'odd', I've never figured out what it thinks > it is, best I can advise is turn flow control off. The default term for the console is 'sun', appropriate for a sun framebuffer, but probably not the terminal emulator. Changing the ttymon line in /etc/inittab is probably the easiest way to set it to something else. > You need a newer version of solaris 8 to support the 220R. The original > (think first year's worth) will install, but it won't be able to boot. The > documentation with the 220R should say what REV is required, assuming it > wasn't purchased with the box. The 220R is pretty old and should take any release of 8. The Sun system handbook has the minimum requirements. http://sunsolve.sun.com/handbook_pub/Systems/E220R/E220R.html > FYI the console connecter is an RJ-48, it's pinout differs from a Cisco or > any other rj-48 console connecter I've found. The pinout is avail on > SunSolve, buried deeply of course. The 220R console is just a non-LOM DB-25 (unless someone's added an RSC card). The pinouts are on the above page. Sun RJ-45 should match Cisco RJ-45 DTE ports. Tx on 3, Rx on 6. -- Darren Dunham ddunham at taos.com Senior Technical Consultant TAOS http://www.taos.com/ Got some Dr Pepper? San Francisco, CA bay area < This line left intentionally blank to confuse you. > -- Darren Dunham ddunham at taos.com Senior Technical Consultant TAOS http://www.taos.com/ Got some Dr Pepper? San Francisco, CA bay area < This line left intentionally blank to confuse you. > From scott at igc.org Thu Jun 24 21:13:56 2004 From: scott at igc.org (Scott Weikart) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 21:13:56 -0700 Subject: Remote install of solaris on a 220R In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04062421135604.01892@sandino.dnsalias.org> On Thursday 24 June 2004 8:05 pm, Jim Hickstein wrote: > > Heh. I've finally given up on redhat.. at my day-gig we're redhat > > ES, soon with provisioning server, but in my company, it's debian > > all the way. > > We ship an old RedHat inside a company-branded box we sell, in the > (outdated) hope that they can buy support from RedHat if they want it. We > haven't updated to ES yet. We need to do something. You can at least send them to progeny.com for support. It's cheaper than ES. > I love Debian and use it myself every chance I get (having spent the effort > to get up the first part of the learning curve, I find that it rocks), but > the boss needs someone commercial to take the bla..., uh support work. Or > thinks he does. What should I do? (Talk about changing the subject....) There's a fair chance you can buy commercial support for Debian from progeny.com (both Debian and Progeny were founded by Ian Murdock). -scott From michael at halligan.org Thu Jun 24 21:23:01 2004 From: michael at halligan.org (Michael T. Halligan) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 21:23:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Remote install of solaris on a 220R In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Heh. I've finally given up on redhat.. at my day-gig we're redhat > > ES, soon with provisioning server, but in my company, it's debian > > all the way. > > We ship an old RedHat inside a company-branded box we sell, in the > (outdated) hope that they can buy support from RedHat if they want it. We > haven't updated to ES yet. We need to do something. > > I love Debian and use it myself every chance I get (having spent the effort > to get up the first part of the learning curve, I find that it rocks), but > the boss needs someone commercial to take the bla..., uh support work. Or > thinks he does. What should I do? (Talk about changing the subject....) The learning curve was odd.. I only started using Debian last year, around the same time I realized I had deployed over 1500 redhat servers.. A couple of false starts before I really dug into it, now I'll never go back.. The only saving grace redhat has at this point is it's provisioning module and satellite service, which is under $51k/year (before server or workstation licenses.. workstation and your own rpms saves you a pretty penny) for entitlements to I think 60 servers, and means you don't have to spend months developing your own deployment, versioning and management tools.A I'm not quite ready to use debian in a mass deployment though, I'm finding that the package management system is so easy to use, it's also easy to deviate from standard configs.. Sometimes I think the poor quality of redhat's packaging system makes you put more effort into package selection.. On the other hand, the fact that I've got 9 servers deployed and running very happily in my cabinet @ 365, and none of which uses more than 390megs for the install, makes me happy. > > And sunsolve, I think I've long given up on sun's website.. For > > pinouts, stokely is the place to go.. > > Celeste will be pleased to hear that. ------------------- Michael T. Halligan Chief Geek Halligan Infrastructure Designs. http://www.halligan.org/ 3158 Mission St. #3 San Francisco, CA 94110 (415) 724.7998 - Mobile From chuck+baylisa at snew.com Thu Jun 24 22:31:35 2004 From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 01:31:35 -0400 Subject: Remote install of solaris on a 220R In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040625053135.GA13735@2004.snew.com> Quoting David M. Dowdle (ddowdle at leopard.net): > It's a PITA, especially if you want to try stipping the system down to > only install the minimums. Don't bother, install everything, then > uninstall things. You'll save yourself hours of headaches if you don't > know solaris interdependacnies backwards and forwards. The solaris > installer/package manager is the worst I've ever seen (and you've heard me > bitch about RedHat's. this makes RH's look like a god). They did package management in 94 or so and don't seem to have revisited it since. I never install EVERYTHING, but will install the one below "everything" (do I need drivers for toshiba sparc boxes? no). Then you get to build tools and make packages. Unless you trust other people. NetBSD's pkgsrc (www.pkgsrc.org) runs pretty well on Solaris (and AIX and MacOS and Linux). It's not perfect (or as good as on netbsd). ports in (Free|Open)BSD = pkgsrcin netbsd > The console definitions are 'odd', I've never figured out what it thinks > it is, best I can advise is turn flow control off. And I've never had a problem. But then, I own spiral bound UUCP books from OReilly, so maybe 25 years of arguing with serial ports did something. I just set xterm. And I use real serial cables (with HardwareHandshake pins) > You need a newer version of solaris 8 to support the 220R. The original > (think first year's worth) will install, but it won't be able to boot. The > documentation with the 220R should say what REV is required, assuming it > wasn't purchased with the box. Not AFAIR. I *think* I ran 2.7 and 2.6 even on them. At this point, Solaris 8 is close enough to EOL that I'd certainly use Solaris 9. I'm playing with Solaris A (after 7, 8 and 9 is "A", we all know this). It's beta or early release or whatever. > Depending on how many boxes it is, dd'ing the drives may be faster than > setting up a one-time jumpstart server. Yes, but jumpstart means fast rebuild and is good for resume. > FYI the console connecter is an RJ-48, it's pinout differs from a Cisco or > any other rj-48 console connecter I've found. The pinout is avail on > SunSolve, buried deeply of course. !? RJ45, you mean? Well, it's a DB25, either way. http://sunsolve.sun.com/handbook_pub/Systems/E220R/E220R.html I'll just note for completeness that Linux, OpenBSD, FreeBSD and NetBSD all boot on the 220.. (Linux was running SunOS (4) binaries faster than SunOS did back early in the linux/sparc port). It's not a powerful machine, by any measure. It's now 5 years old. I was delighted when it came out that it didn't have disk slots like the E250 that made clients think they could fill it with disk and have fast systems. The 220/420R meant that they bought hardware RAID boxes. From lanning at monsoonwind.com Thu Jun 24 23:20:36 2004 From: lanning at monsoonwind.com (Robert Hajime Lanning) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 23:20:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Remote install of solaris on a 220R In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47393.192.168.128.13.1088144436.squirrel@192.168.128.13> Are you sure about this? I manage 10 E220R's. All of them have female DB25 consoles. The newer machines (Sunfire) us RJ48. (Started with Netras and Sunfire V100/V210...) Not sure about larger Sunfire models, as I don't have any. > FYI the console connecter is an RJ-48, it's pinout differs from a > Cisco or any other rj-48 console connecter I've found. The pinout > is avail on SunSolve, buried deeply of course. -- END OF LINE -MCP From rsr at inorganic.org Thu Jun 24 23:38:41 2004 From: rsr at inorganic.org (Roy S. Rapoport) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 23:38:41 -0700 Subject: Remote install of solaris on a 220R In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040625063841.GC4934@puppy.inorganic.org> On Wed, Jun 23, 2004 at 11:50:49PM -0700, Michael T. Halligan wrote: > Solaris/Sun hardware is by far not my forte, I'm not really too > interested in it to be honest.. I've stumbled upon a contract that's > more of a favor to a friend, that will have me installing, patching, and > making "production-ready" a few 220Rs .. Any caveats? My thoughts are to > just have him put the media into the box, and I'll do it all remotely > through the LOM.. My home box is Sun; it's my favorite platform, and back 2-3 years back I owned the Jumpstart architecture at a previous employer until I handed it off to some people who worked for me. The 220s are sort of big, and I'd not necessarily recommend moving them around -- too much of a pain. The good news is they accept two drives, so the solution is simple -- console into a 220 and hand-configure it; depending on what you're trying to do with it, I'd go for the 'everything but OEM support'. Then use ufsdump/ufsrestore (or dd, whatever makes you happy) to copy to the second hard drive. Take second hard drive and put in other 220; repeat as necessary. I love Jumpstart to bits -- I've got a single live system at home and I still use it, because it's nice as a way to bootstrap the systems that replace my current system (every once in a while someone donates to me a better Sun box) or systems I give to friends. Having said that, I'd not recommend setting up Jumpstart for this -- Jumpstart is one of those things where when you do it for the third time, it's really easy, but the first time can be a bitch. JASS makes it somewhat easier but really, either just manually do the install (trivial) or borrow someone else's Jumpstart installation. -roy From marie at mmwi.com Fri Jun 25 07:41:46 2004 From: marie at mmwi.com (Marie Minder) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 07:41:46 -0700 Subject: Looking for a position In-Reply-To: <40DB8033.1000006@arrl.net> Message-ID: <002001c45ac2$8b1dd580$6800a8c0@mariexp> I am looking for a postmaster for a large unix installation. The mail system is Communigate pro but a sendmail administrator would have no problem with the support and maintenance. So Daniel or if anyone else knows anyone that would be interested, let me know. Marie E. Minder President MMW International, Inc Marie at mmwi.com 925-838-9163 925-215-2429 (Fax) -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Curry [mailto:k6dlc at arrl.net] Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 6:30 PM To: baylisa at baylisa.org Subject: Looking for a position I thought I would change the subject. I could use some help on landing a position in security, system admin., or management. Thank you. -- Daniel Curry AD5A 96DC 7556 A020 B8E7 0E4D 5D5E 9BA5 C83E 8C92 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Marie E. Minder (Business Fax).vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 418 bytes Desc: not available URL: From david at catwhisker.org Fri Jun 25 08:01:51 2004 From: david at catwhisker.org (David Wolfskill) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 08:01:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BayLISA mailing lists [Was: RE: Looking for a position] In-Reply-To: <002001c45ac2$8b1dd580$6800a8c0@mariexp> Message-ID: <200406251501.i5PF1paq064776@bunrab.catwhisker.org> Folks, please: BayLISA has several mailing lists. "Positions wanted" or "positions available" messages belong on baylisa-jobs at baylisa,org, not on baylisa at baylisa.org. Discussions of job- or work-related matters other than positoins wanted or available should go to baylisa-jobs-chat at . Please? Thanks david (current hat: postmaster at baylisa.org) -- David H. Wolfskill david at catwhisker.org I do not "unsubscribe" from email "services" to which I have not explicitly subscribed. Rather, I block spammers' access to SMTP servers I control, and encourage others who are in a position to do so to do likewise. From lazyevil at yahoo.com Fri Jun 25 10:32:23 2004 From: lazyevil at yahoo.com (lazyevil at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 10:32:23 -0700 Subject: nfs scalability? In-Reply-To: <20040625063841.GC4934@puppy.inorganic.org> References: <20040625063841.GC4934@puppy.inorganic.org> Message-ID: <40DC61A7.4050005@yahoo.com> Hey y'all, So.. I'm running a Redhat system w/ a fibre connected DAS pushing out NFS to > 40 client machines right now.. and we're starting to feel the performance hits. I know you've handled this before.. here's what I've looked at/thought of, I'd love to hear some more ideas.. - nfs tuning: i've been using http://www.iozone.org to tweak - nfsd thread count, rmem/wmem sizes, rsize/wsize, etc.. - replacing nfs server w/ better hw - adding second nfs server connected to DAS, splitting mount points - switching to TCP - anyone tried this out yet? on RH-WS3? I'm tired of writing cron jobs to fix the automounter, and deal with stale file handles.. its time to upgrade or find something else.. Ciao, -steve From guy at extragalactic.net Fri Jun 25 11:49:21 2004 From: guy at extragalactic.net (Guy B. Purcell) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 11:49:21 -0700 Subject: Remote install of solaris on a 220R In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5EC91C4C-C6D8-11D8-AF36-0030657CE32A@extragalactic.net> On Jun 24, 2004, at 18:25, David M. Dowdle wrote: > It's a PITA, especially if you want to try stipping the system down to > only install the minimums. Don't bother, install everything, then > uninstall things. You'll save yourself hours of headaches if you don't > know solaris interdependacnies backwards and forwards. Actually, Sun has published a "recipe book" entitled, "Minimizing Solaris..." (sorry--can't recall the complete title right now), as part of their BluePrints series. It tells you exactly how to build a fairly secure, minimized, Solaris server and, most importantly, _why_ to include certain extra packages and/or to toss certain others. Oh, and I highly recommend skipping 8 and installing Solaris 9 at this point: userland is much better (Sun support for GNU tools!), and significant improvements in much of the rest. -Guy From rsr at inorganic.org Fri Jun 25 12:26:49 2004 From: rsr at inorganic.org (Roy S. Rapoport) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 12:26:49 -0700 Subject: Remote install of solaris on a 220R In-Reply-To: <5EC91C4C-C6D8-11D8-AF36-0030657CE32A@extragalactic.net> References: <5EC91C4C-C6D8-11D8-AF36-0030657CE32A@extragalactic.net> Message-ID: <20040625192649.GB13083@puppy.inorganic.org> On Fri, Jun 25, 2004 at 11:49:21AM -0700, Guy B. Purcell wrote: > Actually, Sun has published a "recipe book" entitled, "Minimizing > Solaris..." (sorry--can't recall the complete title right now), as part World's best search engine to the rescue. String: "site:www.sun.com minimizing" http://www.sun.com/blueprints/1102/816-5241.pdf -roy From hal at deer-run.com Fri Jun 25 12:36:23 2004 From: hal at deer-run.com (Hal Pomeranz) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 12:36:23 -0700 Subject: Remote install of solaris on a 220R In-Reply-To: <20040625053135.GA13735@2004.snew.com> References: <20040625053135.GA13735@2004.snew.com> Message-ID: <20040625193622.GE15367@deer-run.com> DMD> It's a PITA, especially if you want to try stipping the system down to DMD> only install the minimums. Don't bother, install everything, then DMD> uninstall things. You'll save yourself hours of headaches if you don't DMD> know solaris interdependacnies backwards and forwards. This is not good advice, IMHO, but then I probably fall into the category of somebody who knows Solaris interdependcies backwards and forwards. For most Internet-facing "appliance" type purposes, the "Core System Support" cluster plus a few packages is usually more than you need. Once you've got the OS installed, Solaris hardening guidance is available from http://www.CISecurity.org/ and http://www.deer-run.com/~hal/solaris-sbs/ CY> Then you get to build tools and make packages. Unless you trust CY> other people. www.sunfreeware.com is your friend. I just wished they used PGP signatures on their packages. I also support the OpenSSH packages at ftp.cisecurity.org, which I think are better than the ones at sunfreeware.com, albeit mine are only 32-bit binaries for backwards compatibility. CY> At this point, Solaris 8 is close enough to EOL that I'd certainly CY> use Solaris 9. I'm playing with Solaris A (after 7, 8 and 9 is CY> "A", we all know this). It's beta or early release or whatever. Yes, don't bother with Solaris 8 at this point, 9 is definitely better in all respects. "The Solaris Operating System That Comes After 9" is definitely going to be worthwhile too-- Sun shops should subscribe to the "Solaris Express" program to test the engineering snapshots and prepare for early upgrades. DMD> Depending on how many boxes it is, dd'ing the drives may be faster than DMD> setting up a one-time jumpstart server. See also "flash" installs for Solaris. Kicks ass. -- Hal Pomeranz, Founder/CEO Deer Run Associates hal at deer-run.com Network Connectivity and Security, Systems Management, Training From rolnif at mac.com Fri Jun 25 13:40:53 2004 From: rolnif at mac.com (John Martinez) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 13:40:53 -0700 Subject: Remote install of solaris on a 220R In-Reply-To: <20040625193622.GE15367@deer-run.com> References: <20040625053135.GA13735@2004.snew.com> <20040625193622.GE15367@deer-run.com> Message-ID: On Jun 25, 2004, at 12:36 PM, Hal Pomeranz wrote: > CY> Then you get to build tools and make packages. Unless you trust > CY> other people. > > www.sunfreeware.com is your friend. I just wished they used PGP > signatures on their packages. I've found this site to be very useful as well. -john From ryoohki at ryoohki.org Fri Jun 25 16:40:25 2004 From: ryoohki at ryoohki.org (Michael Cheselka) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 16:40:25 -0700 Subject: nfs scalability? In-Reply-To: <40DC61A7.4050005@yahoo.com> References: <20040625063841.GC4934@puppy.inorganic.org> <40DC61A7.4050005@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1088206825.40dcb7e994262@webmail.namezero.com> Some people are working on a distributed parallel nfs so you could span the nfs server accross two machines. Not sure if it's working yet or not. -- When in the Potemkin Wired be a Potemkin Lain. Quoting "lazyevil at yahoo.com" : > Hey y'all, > > So.. I'm running a Redhat system w/ a fibre connected DAS pushing out > NFS to > 40 client machines right now.. and we're starting to feel > the > performance hits. I know you've handled this before.. here's what > I've > looked at/thought of, I'd love to hear some more ideas.. > > - nfs tuning: i've been using http://www.iozone.org to tweak > - nfsd thread count, rmem/wmem sizes, rsize/wsize, etc.. > - replacing nfs server w/ better hw > - adding second nfs server connected to DAS, splitting mount points > - switching to TCP - anyone tried this out yet? on RH-WS3? > > I'm tired of writing cron jobs to fix the automounter, and deal with > stale file handles.. its time to upgrade or find something else.. > > Ciao, > > -steve > From jimd at starshine.org Sat Jun 26 13:45:02 2004 From: jimd at starshine.org (jimd at starshine.org) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 13:45:02 -0700 Subject: Remote install of solaris on a 220R In-Reply-To: <04062421135604.01892@sandino.dnsalias.org> References: <04062421135604.01892@sandino.dnsalias.org> Message-ID: <20040626204501.GD14581@mercury.starshine.org> On Thu, Jun 24, 2004 at 09:13:56PM -0700, Scott Weikart wrote: > On Thursday 24 June 2004 8:05 pm, Jim Hickstein wrote: >>> Heh. I've finally given up on redhat.. at my day-gig we're redhat >>> ES, soon with provisioning server, but in my company, it's debian >>> all the way. >> We ship an old RedHat inside a company-branded box we sell, in the >> (outdated) hope that they can buy support from RedHat if they want it. We >> haven't updated to ES yet. We need to do something. > You can at least send them to progeny.com for support. It's cheaper > than ES. >> I love Debian and use it myself every chance I get (having spent the effort >> to get up the first part of the learning curve, I find that it rocks), but >> the boss needs someone commercial to take the bla..., uh support work. Or >> thinks he does. What should I do? (Talk about changing the subject....) > There's a fair chance you can buy commercial support for Debian from > progeny.com (both Debian and Progeny were founded by Ian Murdock). > -scott The problem here is that Progeny doesn't want to sell invidual little support contracts. I seem to recall that they'd need a sizable corporate/enterprise class contract. Jim's company isn't going to engage Progeny or Red Hat, etc. They just want to be able to refer the customer to a nationally recognized support provider. (The business Linuxcare was supposed to be in when I worked for them). All I know of are niche, mostly local, consultancies. -- Jim Dennis From scott at igc.org Sat Jun 26 14:27:58 2004 From: scott at igc.org (Scott Weikart) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 14:27:58 -0700 Subject: support for Red Hat Linux (and Debian) In-Reply-To: <20040626204501.GD14581@mercury.starshine.org> References: <04062421135604.01892@sandino.dnsalias.org> <20040626204501.GD14581@mercury.starshine.org> Message-ID: <04062614275800.07703@sandino.dnsalias.org> On Saturday 26 June 2004 1:45 pm, jimd at starshine.org wrote: > On Thu, Jun 24, 2004 at 09:13:56PM -0700, Scott Weikart wrote: > > On Thursday 24 June 2004 8:05 pm, Jim Hickstein wrote: > >>> Heh. I've finally given up on redhat.. at my day-gig we're redhat > >>> ES, soon with provisioning server, but in my company, it's debian > >>> all the way. > >> > >> We ship an old RedHat inside a company-branded box we sell, in the > >> (outdated) hope that they can buy support from RedHat if they want it. > >> We haven't updated to ES yet. We need to do something. > > > > You can at least send them to progeny.com for support. It's cheaper > > than ES. > > > >> I love Debian and use it myself every chance I get (having spent the > >> effort to get up the first part of the learning curve, I find that it > >> rocks), but the boss needs someone commercial to take the bla..., uh > >> support work. Or thinks he does. What should I do? (Talk about > >> changing the subject....) > > > > There's a fair chance you can buy commercial support for Debian from > > progeny.com (both Debian and Progeny were founded by Ian Murdock). > > > > -scott > > The problem here is that Progeny doesn't want to sell invidual little > support contracts. I seem to recall that they'd need a sizable > corporate/enterprise class contract. You're probably right. My comment was quite imprecise; Progeny doesn't provide generic support for anyone, it provides software support for security fixes. For small scale users, Progeny charges $5/computer/month for a security service that provides source and x86 binary RPMs for Red Hat Linux 7.2, 7.3, 8.0, and 9: http://transition.progeny.com/ And they've only promised support through the end of 2005 (whether they do it longer will depend on demand). -scott From alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com Sat Jun 26 14:46:45 2004 From: alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com (Alvin Oga) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 14:46:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: big boys - Re: Remote install of solaris on a 220R In-Reply-To: <20040626204501.GD14581@mercury.starshine.org> Message-ID: hi ya jim On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 jimd at starshine.org wrote: > The problem here is that Progeny doesn't want to sell invidual little > support contracts. I seem to recall that they'd need a sizable > corporate/enterprise class contract. i think that's true of just about everybody ... it seems all the little support folks little contracts that comes in their way > Jim's company isn't going to engage Progeny or Red Hat, etc. They just > want to be able to refer the customer to a nationally recognized > support provider. (The business Linuxcare was supposed to be in when > I worked for them). the big boyz ( aka nationally recognized ) are folks like ibm/redhat, suse, mandrake, unisys, ca, penguin, etc that provides "linux support" ( usually means redhat or their own linux ) yes progeny provides support too, but the question is the size of the "support contracts" outsourced by the big-company looking for linux support for xxx flavor linux lots of the cluster folks also provide their own support infrastructure with their cluster hw they sell > All I know of are niche, mostly local, consultancies. if all the little consultancies band together, it'd be a bigger support entity than all of the big boyz combined, and would automatically be world wide and onsite in every major city it's gonna happen sooner or later .. c ya alvin From jxh at jxh.com Sat Jun 26 16:48:05 2004 From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 18:48:05 -0500 Subject: big boys - Re: Remote install of solaris on a 220R In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DDD2EB96981CA9CAD50B17A@[10.9.18.3]> > > it's gonna happen sooner or later .. > (Apropos of nothing:) So is a trillion-dollar class action, and commensurate "disgorgement", against you-know-who that will finally establish product liability for retail software products once and for all. Including operating systems. That is why they will go along with it: to try to quash "free" competitors. (It won't work.) Maybe even in my lifetime. I live in hope. Or is this already free-as-in-dom-not-free-as-in-beer-software orthodoxy? I'm a bit out of touch. ANYway: I think we might as well go with Debian (or Fedora) and just say "It's Linux 2.4; go out and find a high-school kid to take care of it." For anyone buying fewer than a hundred of these things, that should do. (In fact, it's been working OK.) I don't expect more than one or two per customer, in our case. From chuck+baylisa at snew.com Sun Jun 27 23:13:23 2004 From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 02:13:23 -0400 Subject: Remote install of solaris on a 220R In-Reply-To: <20040625193622.GE15367@deer-run.com> References: <20040625053135.GA13735@2004.snew.com> <20040625193622.GE15367@deer-run.com> Message-ID: <20040628061323.GB20385@2004.snew.com> Quoting Hal Pomeranz (hal at deer-run.com): ... > CY> Then you get to build tools and make packages. Unless you trust > CY> other people. > > www.sunfreeware.com is your friend. I just wished they used PGP > signatures on their packages. And that they didn't make binaries owned by bin, or change /usr/local/bin/ owned by bin. It's easier to become bin than it is to become root, hole history has shown. When sun used to make /etc/ a bin owned directory, a bad (shipped) /etc/hosts.equiv meant that getting into (my own) company's servers and get root took just a few minutes. My point was finally made and a firewall put in and access to unaudited machines deeply restricted from the WAN. I'll also peeve, because I make /usr/ and /usr/local readonly and /usr/local is exported, that config files go into /etc. /etc/local is acceptable, but the only things that really WANTS configs on shared media is sudo. > I also support the OpenSSH packages at ftp.cisecurity.org, which I > think are better than the ones at sunfreeware.com, albeit mine are > only 32-bit binaries for backwards compatibility. I'll also note that OpenSSH from the source has a contrib/ script that makes a Sun package. Of all things you likely want to self compile.... And Hal, the deer in my yard say hello and mock you for leaving their hills. From strata at virtual.net Mon Jun 28 00:07:58 2004 From: strata at virtual.net (Strata R Chalup) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 00:07:58 -0700 Subject: July 15 meeting info posted on website Message-ID: <40DFC3CE.3020003@virtual.net> [Formal announcement due July 1, this is pre-announce and reassurance that yes, meeting is on and speaker lined up!] Through a Sniffer Darkly: Covert Communications Channels Mark C. Langston SETI Institute Today's networks provide unprecedented freedom to communicate. With this freedom comes responsibility, and the means to detect, shape, and control communications have become a necessary part of systems administration. We'll briefly examine the two primary means of controlling network communications today -- firewalls and intrusion detection systems -- and survey various techniques of evading these tools. We'll discuss port-knocking, data hiding, steganography, and other techniques, leading up to a demonstration of Sifr's Obfuscator, running code that builds on ideas such as Ron Rivest's Chaffing and Winnowing technique and data-hiding methods demonstrated by Simple Nomad's NCovert tool. -- ======================================================================== Strata Rose Chalup [KF6NBZ] strata "@" virtual.net VirtualNet Consulting http://www.virtual.net/ ** Project Management & Architecture for ISP/ASP Systems Integration ** ========================================================================= From david at catwhisker.org Wed Jun 30 07:17:46 2004 From: david at catwhisker.org (David Wolfskill) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 07:17:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Broadcast TCP"??!? Message-ID: <200406301417.i5UEHkF8012366@bunrab.catwhisker.org> This may be "old hat" to some of y'all, but I don't get out much, and I found it perversely amusing.... I'm in the habit of reviewing not only the logs for my home packet filter (and certain other services, such as the mail log & httpd log), but also the packet filter from my laptop on a daily basis. At work, we have delpoyed a radio link as part of a "beta" test, and I connect the laptop to that network. And since I know that my laptop may well be connected to at least one network that I don't consider "trusted" (the network in question qualifies, as does any wireless net, including the one we use at the Apple facility where BayLISA meets, for example), I run a simple packet filter to control -- and log certain parts of -- the traffic that is seen. Today, I noted this: Jun 29 17:32:53 localhost /kernel: ipfw: 3400 Deny TCP 222.101.164.135:2124 64.62.202.0:25 in via ed1 Jun 29 17:32:53 localhost /kernel: ipfw: 3400 Deny TCP 222.101.164.135:2154 64.62.202.7:25 in via ed1 Jun 29 17:32:54 localhost /kernel: ipfw: 3400 Deny TCP 222.101.164.135:2670 64.62.202.255:25 in via ed1 Jun 29 17:32:56 localhost /kernel: ipfw: 3400 Deny TCP 222.101.164.135:2124 64.62.202.0:25 in via ed1 Jun 29 17:32:56 localhost /kernel: ipfw: 3400 Deny TCP 222.101.164.135:2154 64.62.202.7:25 in via ed1 Jun 29 17:32:57 localhost /kernel: ipfw: 3400 Deny TCP 222.101.164.135:2670 64.62.202.255:25 in via ed1 Jun 29 17:33:02 localhost /kernel: ipfw: 3400 Deny TCP 222.101.164.135:2124 64.62.202.0:25 in via ed1 Jun 29 17:33:03 localhost /kernel: ipfw: 3400 Deny TCP 222.101.164.135:2670 64.62.202.255:25 in via ed1 Now, the address my laptop was using at the time was 64.62.202.7, so some of the above makes some sense. The ones that got my attention, though, were the ones directed at 64.62.202.255:25. I don't recall seeing an attempt to send TCP traffic to a broadcast address before. (UDP, sure; that often makes sense. TCP?) Anyway, I found it oddly amusing, and thought I'd share.... Peace, david -- David H. Wolfskill david at catwhisker.org I do not "unsubscribe" from email "services" to which I have not explicitly subscribed. Rather, I block spammers' access to SMTP servers I control, and encourage others who are in a position to do so to do likewise. From strata at virtual.net Wed Jun 30 12:41:47 2004 From: strata at virtual.net (Strata R Chalup) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:41:47 -0700 Subject: July 1 Board Meeting: Pho Hoa, Mountain View, 7pm In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40E3177B.6050706@virtual.net> We've had a few board meetings at Pho Hoa, on Castro Street. It's not usually crowded, you can get a good cheap dinner there (chicken, seafood, or veggie pho, plus a small selection of non-pho items for those who don't like vietnamese rice-noodle soup with beefy bits). Pho Hoa, 220 Castro St., Mountain View Tel: (650) 969-5805 Given people's usual schedule, let's go for arriving at 7pm and starting the actual meeting by 7:30pm. I will be on time unless a meteor hits or a production system goes down. :-/ cheers, Strata -- ======================================================================== Strata Rose Chalup [KF6NBZ] strata "@" virtual.net VirtualNet Consulting http://www.virtual.net/ ** Project Management & Architecture for ISP/ASP Systems Integration ** ========================================================================= From deirdre at deirdre.net Wed Jun 30 12:57:42 2004 From: deirdre at deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse Moen) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:57:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: July 1 Board Meeting: Pho Hoa, Mountain View, 7pm In-Reply-To: <40E3177B.6050706@virtual.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Jun 2004, Strata R Chalup wrote: > Given people's usual schedule, let's go for arriving at 7pm and > starting the actual meeting by 7:30pm. I will be on time unless > a meteor hits or a production system goes down. :-/ Rick and I will likely be available by cell. We should be in North Hollywood then. -- _Deirdre http://deirdre.net "Memes are a hoax! Pass it on!" From strata at virtual.net Wed Jun 30 12:57:49 2004 From: strata at virtual.net (Strata R Chalup) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:57:49 -0700 Subject: BayLISA mentioned in Business Week article Message-ID: <40E31B3D.3090109@virtual.net> Via Tom Limoncelli. It's not clear from the article whether it was Tom or Adam Moskowitz, also quoted in the article, who mentioned BayLISA, but thanks to both of them (bcc'd here). http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_27/b3890451.htm -- ======================================================================== Strata Rose Chalup [KF6NBZ] strata "@" virtual.net VirtualNet Consulting http://www.virtual.net/ ** Project Management & Architecture for ISP/ASP Systems Integration ** ========================================================================= From ddowdle at leopard.net Wed Jun 30 14:39:04 2004 From: ddowdle at leopard.net (David M. Dowdle) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:39:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Remote install of solaris on a 220R CORRECTIONS In-Reply-To: <20040625053135.GA13735@2004.snew.com> References: <20040625053135.GA13735@2004.snew.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Jun 2004, Chuck Yerkes wrote: > Quoting David M. Dowdle (ddowdle at leopard.net): > I never install EVERYTHING, but will install the one below "everything" > (do I need drivers for toshiba sparc boxes? no). I agree, meant to avoid the 'choose-each-package-seperatly' option > > > You need a newer version of solaris 8 to support the 220R. The original > > (think first year's worth) will install, but it won't be able to boot. The > > documentation with the 220R should say what REV is required, assuming it > > wasn't purchased with the box. > > Not AFAIR. I *think* I ran 2.7 and 2.6 even on them. I was thinking of a Netra T1, everyone's correct, it'lll run 2.7 fine > > > > FYI the console connecter is an RJ-48, it's pinout differs from a Cisco or > > any other rj-48 console connecter I've found. The pinout is avail on > > SunSolve, buried deeply of course. > > !? RJ45, you mean? Well, it's a DB25, either way. RJ-48 is the female end that an RJ-45 plugs into Again though I was thinking of a Netra T1, everyone's correct, it's a db-25 > > http://sunsolve.sun.com/handbook_pub/Systems/E220R/E220R.html > > I'll just note for completeness that Linux, OpenBSD, FreeBSD and NetBSD > all boot on the 220.. > Ran Debian on one once, just to say I did it, unfortuantly in our enviroment, we actually got worse performance from linux vs Sularis 8 running the sme product From chuck+baylisa at snew.com Wed Jun 30 16:20:33 2004 From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 19:20:33 -0400 Subject: BayLISA mentioned in Business Week article In-Reply-To: <40E31B3D.3090109@virtual.net> References: <40E31B3D.3090109@virtual.net> Message-ID: <20040630232033.GB17649@2004.snew.com> Quoting Strata R Chalup (strata at virtual.net): > Via Tom Limoncelli. It's not clear from the article whether it > was Tom or Adam Moskowitz, also quoted in the article, who mentioned > BayLISA, but thanks to both of them (bcc'd here). > > http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_27/b3890451.htm hee hee: | After sorting through 100 resumes and conducting 15 interviews, | Clark hired Tom Limoncelli, a veteran sysadmin with all the right | qualities. Such as ... he'd written a large reference book on system admin that sits on the desks of many system admins? Might that be a Right Quality? Ah, the media.