From david at catwhisker.org Wed Oct 1 10:20:20 2003 From: david at catwhisker.org (David Wolfskill) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 10:20:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How is "tip" spelled on Linux-speak? Message-ID: <200310011720.h91HKKvZ013942@bunrab.catwhisker.org> In particular, using the recently-minted Linux BBC (Bootable Business Card)? I'm trying to test/diagnose a problem with my laptop's serial port; I merely want to tip to the serial port while an external MODEM is connected to it, so I can see if I can talk to it ("aaat&v"; see if I get a register dump back -- if so, I'm happy). Thanks, david -- David H. Wolfskill david at catwhisker.org If you want true virus-protection for your PC, install a non-Microsoft OS on it. Plausible candidates include FreeBSD, Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, and Solaris (in alphabetical order). From matt at offmyserver.com Wed Oct 1 11:18:10 2003 From: matt at offmyserver.com (Matt Olander) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 11:18:10 -0700 Subject: How is "tip" spelled on Linux-speak? In-Reply-To: <200310011720.h91HKKvZ013942@bunrab.catwhisker.org>; from david@catwhisker.org on Wed, Oct 01, 2003 at 10:20:20AM -0700 References: <200310011720.h91HKKvZ013942@bunrab.catwhisker.org> Message-ID: <20031001111810.K72180@knight.ixsystems.net> On Wed, Oct 01, 2003 at 10:20:20AM -0700, David Wolfskill wrote: > In particular, using the recently-minted Linux BBC (Bootable Business Card)? > > I'm trying to test/diagnose a problem with my laptop's serial port; I > merely want to tip to the serial port while an external MODEM is > connected to it, so I can see if I can talk to it ("aaat&v"; see if > I get a register dump back -- if so, I'm happy). isn't that little BBC cd damn cute? I just got in some fresh business card cd-r's so I can make a freebsd bizcard cd from freesbie ;) I think that cu should work on linux although I could be wrong. I usually try minicom but I'm not sure if either one is on that mini-distro. good luck! -matt > > Thanks, > david > -- > David H. Wolfskill david at catwhisker.org > If you want true virus-protection for your PC, install a non-Microsoft OS > on it. Plausible candidates include FreeBSD, Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, and > Solaris (in alphabetical order). -- Matt Olander (408)943-4100 Phone (408)943-4101 Fax www.offmyserver.com -- "Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't" -Mark Twain From samlb at samlb.ws Wed Oct 1 11:06:35 2003 From: samlb at samlb.ws (Sam'l Bassett) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 11:06:35 -0700 Subject: How is "tip" spelled on Linux-speak? In-Reply-To: <200310011720.h91HKKvZ013942@bunrab.catwhisker.org> References: <200310011720.h91HKKvZ013942@bunrab.catwhisker.org> Message-ID: <200310011106.35632.samlb@samlb.ws> minicom ;-) On Wednesday 01 October 2003 10:20 am, David Wolfskill wrote: > In particular, using the recently-minted Linux BBC (Bootable Business > Card)? > > I'm trying to test/diagnose a problem with my laptop's serial port; I > merely want to tip to the serial port while an external MODEM is > connected to it, so I can see if I can talk to it ("aaat&v"; see if > I get a register dump back -- if so, I'm happy). > > Thanks, > david From david at catwhisker.org Wed Oct 1 12:07:38 2003 From: david at catwhisker.org (David Wolfskill) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 12:07:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How is "tip" spelled on Linux-speak? In-Reply-To: <200310011720.h91HKKvZ013942@bunrab.catwhisker.org> Message-ID: <200310011907.h91J7c6B014470@bunrab.catwhisker.org> >Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 10:20:20 -0700 (PDT) >From: David Wolfskill >To: baylisa at baylisa.org >Subject: How is "tip" spelled on Linux-speak? >In particular, using the recently-minted Linux BBC (Bootable Business Card)? My thanks to the many correspondents who suggested either "cu" or "minicom". Having been exposed to SysV-flavored systems some years ago, I was aware of the existence of "cu", but the BBC had indicated that it was not to be found. It did, however, find "minicom". Now all I need to do is figure out how to use it (when it claims minicom: WARNING: configuration file not found, using defaults modprobe: Can't locate module /dev/ttyS1 minicom: cannot open /dev/ttyS1: No such file or directory Hmmm......) Thanks again....! Peace, david -- David H. Wolfskill david at catwhisker.org If you want true virus-protection for your PC, install a non-Microsoft OS on it. Plausible candidates include FreeBSD, Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, and Solaris (in alphabetical order). From fscked at pacbell.net Wed Oct 1 12:06:49 2003 From: fscked at pacbell.net (richard childers / kg6hac) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 12:06:49 -0700 Subject: How is "tip" spelled on Linux-speak? In-Reply-To: <20031001111810.K72180@knight.ixsystems.net> References: <200310011720.h91HKKvZ013942@bunrab.catwhisker.org> <20031001111810.K72180@knight.ixsystems.net> Message-ID: <3F7B25C9.1030603@pacbell.net> http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Modem-HOWTO-11.html Matt Olander wrote: >On Wed, Oct 01, 2003 at 10:20:20AM -0700, David Wolfskill wrote: > > >>In particular, using the recently-minted Linux BBC (Bootable Business Card)? >> >>I'm trying to test/diagnose a problem with my laptop's serial port; I >>merely want to tip to the serial port while an external MODEM is >>connected to it, so I can see if I can talk to it ("aaat&v"; see if >>I get a register dump back -- if so, I'm happy). >> >> > >isn't that little BBC cd damn cute? I just got in some fresh business card >cd-r's so I can make a freebsd bizcard cd from freesbie ;) > >I think that cu should work on linux although I could be wrong. I >usually try minicom but I'm not sure if either one is on that >mini-distro. > >good luck! > >-matt > > > > >>Thanks, >>david >>-- >>David H. Wolfskill david at catwhisker.org >>If you want true virus-protection for your PC, install a non-Microsoft OS >>on it. Plausible candidates include FreeBSD, Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, and >>Solaris (in alphabetical order). >> >> > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ea_baylisa at sfik.com Wed Oct 1 12:04:18 2003 From: ea_baylisa at sfik.com (Simon Cooper) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 12:04:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How is "tip" spelled on Linux-speak? In-Reply-To: <200310011720.h91HKKvZ013942@bunrab.catwhisker.org> References: <200310011720.h91HKKvZ013942@bunrab.catwhisker.org> Message-ID: /usr/bin/minicom on the BBC it is /bin/minicom. A bit like the old "procomm". It is a bit clunky. Simon. On Wed, 1 Oct 2003, David Wolfskill wrote: > In particular, using the recently-minted Linux BBC (Bootable Business Card)? > > I'm trying to test/diagnose a problem with my laptop's serial port; I > merely want to tip to the serial port while an external MODEM is > connected to it, so I can see if I can talk to it ("aaat&v"; see if > I get a register dump back -- if so, I'm happy). > > Thanks, > david > From jimd at starshine.org Wed Oct 1 08:14:47 2003 From: jimd at starshine.org (jimd at starshine.org) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 15:14:47 +0000 Subject: How is "tip" spelled on Linux-speak? In-Reply-To: <200310011720.h91HKKvZ013942@bunrab.catwhisker.org> References: <200310011720.h91HKKvZ013942@bunrab.catwhisker.org> Message-ID: <20031001151447.GA30919@mercury.starshine.org> On Wed, Oct 01, 2003 at 10:20:20AM -0700, David Wolfskill wrote: > In particular, using the recently-minted Linux BBC (Bootable Business Card)? > I'm trying to test/diagnose a problem with my laptop's serial port; I > merely want to tip to the serial port while an external MODEM is > connected to it, so I can see if I can talk to it ("aaat&v"; see if > I get a register dump back -- if so, I'm happy). > Thanks, > david Minicom is probably included. Try it. -- Jim Dennis From Bill at linuxcare.com Wed Oct 1 12:24:03 2003 From: Bill at linuxcare.com (Bill Schoolcraft) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 12:24:03 -0700 Subject: How is "tip" spelled on Linux-speak? References: <200310011720.h91HKKvZ013942@bunrab.catwhisker.org> Message-ID: <3F7B29D3.ED489244@linuxcare.com> David Wolfskill wrote: > Minicom is what I think your after, I actually install "minicom" on my FreeBSD boxes too for ease of use. /usr/ports/comms/minicom/ -- Bill Schoolcraft Linuxcare Client Services 650 Townsend Street San Francisco, CA 94103 +1.415.354.4878 http://www.linuxcare.com "Simplifying Server Consolidation" From alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com Wed Oct 1 12:38:09 2003 From: alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com (Alvin Oga) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 12:38:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How is "tip" spelled on Linux-speak? In-Reply-To: <3F7B25C9.1030603@pacbell.net> Message-ID: hi ya On Wed, 1 Oct 2003, richard childers / kg6hac wrote: > http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Modem-HOWTO-11.html > > Matt Olander wrote: > > >On Wed, Oct 01, 2003 at 10:20:20AM -0700, David Wolfskill wrote: > > > > > >>In particular, using the recently-minted Linux BBC (Bootable Business Card)? > >> > >>I'm trying to test/diagnose a problem with my laptop's serial port; I > >>merely want to tip to the serial port while an external MODEM is > >>connected to it, so I can see if I can talk to it ("aaat&v"; see if > >>I get a register dump back -- if so, I'm happy). minicom, seyon, kermit, ... modem AT comands for debugging modem stuff http://Www.Linux-Consulting.com/PPP_Server/hayes_cmd.txt c ya alvin From dan_bethe at yahoo.com Wed Oct 1 12:49:24 2003 From: dan_bethe at yahoo.com (Dan Bethe) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 12:49:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How is "tip" spelled on Linux-speak? In-Reply-To: <3F7B25C9.1030603@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20031001194924.11604.qmail@web11002.mail.yahoo.com> > >isn't that little BBC cd damn cute? I just got in some fresh business card > >cd-r's so I can make a freebsd bizcard cd from freesbie ;) Yeah, just don't stick it into an auto-inject cdrom drive such as a G3 iMac! It'll eat the drive. I went into a Computerware store a while back and at the front desk they had a husk of an iMac with a bunch of the Pokemon CDs you find in kids' cereal boxes, taped to the side, with a circle-and-cross drawn over them. :) Maybe you should print that warning on the CD label ;) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From jimd at starshine.org Thu Oct 2 05:22:37 2003 From: jimd at starshine.org (jimd at starshine.org) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 12:22:37 +0000 Subject: How is "tip" spelled on Linux-speak? In-Reply-To: <200310011907.h91J7c6B014470@bunrab.catwhisker.org> References: <200310011720.h91HKKvZ013942@bunrab.catwhisker.org> <200310011907.h91J7c6B014470@bunrab.catwhisker.org> Message-ID: <20031002122237.GA1329@mercury.starshine.org> On Wed, Oct 01, 2003 at 12:07:38PM -0700, David Wolfskill wrote: >>Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 10:20:20 -0700 (PDT) >>From: David Wolfskill >>To: baylisa at baylisa.org >>Subject: How is "tip" spelled on Linux-speak? >>In particular, using the recently-minted Linux BBC (Bootable Business Card)? > My thanks to the many correspondents who suggested either "cu" or > "minicom". > Having been exposed to SysV-flavored systems some years ago, I was aware > of the existence of "cu", but the BBC had indicated that it was not to > be found. > It did, however, find "minicom". > Now all I need to do is figure out how to use it (when it claims > minicom: WARNING: configuration file not found, using defaults > modprobe: Can't locate module /dev/ttyS1 > minicom: cannot open /dev/ttyS1: No such file or directory > Hmmm......) > Thanks again....! > Peace, > david The BBC uses devfs (dynamic, proc-like virtual filesystem for devices) rather than the traditional static device nodes. The devfs code changed the naming conventions though a devfsd (daemon) is provided to supply symlinks for backwards compatibility. Apparently the BBC is not providing a config file to minicom to point at the devfs tty serial line and perhaps devfsd isn't loading the appropriate serial kernel modules for the symlink to work. I'll have to reboot one of the systems around here on an LNX-BBC to help with that. But look at modprobe serial and maybe run the minicom -s to create a config that points directly to the serial device node. -- Jim Dennis From jxh at jxh.com Thu Oct 2 10:38:44 2003 From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 12:38:44 -0500 Subject: How is "tip" spelled on Linux-speak? In-Reply-To: <20031002122237.GA1329@mercury.starshine.org> References: <200310011720.h91HKKvZ013942@bunrab.catwhisker.org> <200310011907.h91J7c6B014470@bunrab.catwhisker.org> <20031002122237.GA1329@mercury.starshine.org> Message-ID: <2147483647.1065098324@[10.9.18.6]> > I'll have to reboot one of the systems around here on an LNX-BBC to > help with that. But look at modprobe serial and maybe run the > minicom -s to create a config that points directly to the serial > device node. Why not just bring back tip(1)? It's _so_ much easier to deal with, and it Just Works. I am still frustrated that MacOS X doesn't come with this. ("man remote" was there in 10.1, but they removed it in 10.2.) Please don't let Linux abandon it, too. From fscked at pacbell.net Thu Oct 2 14:02:55 2003 From: fscked at pacbell.net (richard childers / kg6hac) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 14:02:55 -0700 Subject: PIX, NAT & PAT Message-ID: <3F7C927F.6090707@pacbell.net> I have a customer who is using a PIX to firewall their organization from the Internet. We have available a limited number of public IP addresses - one of which belongs to what we shall call a production server. We have rebuilt this production server and want to test it. In order to test it, we need to be able to reach it from the Internet. Alas, all of the public IP addresses are in use, as described above. As a workaround, it has been proposed that we use a static entry forwarding all connections to port P of address A (A.A.A.A:P), to port Q of address B (B.B.B.B:Q). Careful analysis of the PIX 6.1 command language, as described by pages found at www.cisco.com, suggests that, indeed, PIX 6.1's "static" command is capable of this (although PIX 4.4, a version I was previously familiar with, did not support these sorts of operations). Careful analysis of the actual printed documentation provided with the PIX - after attempting this small change to the configuration, and encountering errors - reveals that, according to the printed documentation - also specific to PIX 6.1 - that these PAT-specific capabilities - specifically, extensions to the "static" command - are NOT supported. The extensions are not even described in the included PIX 6.1 Command Reference. What's going on here? Are there two PIX 6.1 releases? Are Cisco's documentation standards getting sloppy? Does Cisco's publically accessible documentation contain descriptions of what are unsupported functional modes (I call them "errors") in an attempt to subtly persuade people to upgrade? Should we replace the PIX with FreeBSD, and ipfw(8) ? Curious if others have run into these sorts of inconsistencies with Cisco products ... -- richard Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services https://www.daemonized.com (415) 759-5571 "Sacred cows make the -best- burgers ... if you cook 'em just right." -- Reverend Billy C Wirtz, 'Deep Fried & Sanctified' From star at starshine.org Thu Oct 2 14:15:18 2003 From: star at starshine.org (Heather Stern) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 14:15:18 -0700 Subject: How is "tip" spelled on Linux-speak? In-Reply-To: <200310011907.h91J7c6B014470@bunrab.catwhisker.org> References: <200310011720.h91HKKvZ013942@bunrab.catwhisker.org> <200310011907.h91J7c6B014470@bunrab.catwhisker.org> Message-ID: <20031002211518.GC4912@starshine.org> > My thanks to the many correspondents who suggested either "cu" or > "minicom". > > Having been exposed to SysV-flavored systems some years ago, I was aware > of the existence of "cu", but the BBC had indicated that it was not to > be found. > > It did, however, find "minicom". > > Now all I need to do is figure out how to use it (when it claims > > minicom: WARNING: configuration file not found, using defaults > modprobe: Can't locate module /dev/ttyS1 > minicom: cannot open /dev/ttyS1: No such file or directory That's a symptom of devfsd not being told to leave /dev/ttySn alone when you access it, and of course serial features don't need a module, we built that in anyway. I should add that to the devfs whacking. In the meantime, I believe devfsd has a control file in /etc that can be tickled (see the dev mouse example for leaving the entry alone and/or pulling the right module), and the daemon can be killed and restarted. > Hmmm......) > > Thanks again....! :) . | . Heather Stern | star at starshine.org --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - consulting at starshine.org ' | ` Sysadmin Support and Training | (800) 938-4078 From star at starshine.org Thu Oct 2 14:22:53 2003 From: star at starshine.org (Heather Stern) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 14:22:53 -0700 Subject: How is "tip" spelled on Linux-speak? In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1065098324@[10.9.18.6]> References: <200310011720.h91HKKvZ013942@bunrab.catwhisker.org> <200310011907.h91J7c6B014470@bunrab.catwhisker.org> <20031002122237.GA1329@mercury.starshine.org> <2147483647.1065098324@[10.9.18.6]> Message-ID: <20031002212253.GF4912@starshine.org> On Thu, Oct 02, 2003 at 12:38:44PM -0500, Jim Hickstein wrote: > > I'll have to reboot one of the systems around here on an LNX-BBC to > > help with that. But look at modprobe serial and maybe run the > > minicom -s to create a config that points directly to the serial > > device node. > > Why not just bring back tip(1)? It's _so_ much easier to deal with, and it > Just Works. > > I am still frustrated that MacOS X doesn't come with this. ("man remote" > was there in 10.1, but they removed it in 10.2.) Please don't let Linux > abandon it, too. Got upstream sources? Things can be added to the BBC project if we have sources for them, bearing in mind space considerations. . | . Heather Stern | star at starshine.org --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - consulting at starshine.org ' | ` Sysadmin Support and Training | (800) 938-4078 From chuck+baylisa at snew.com Thu Oct 2 17:20:24 2003 From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 20:20:24 -0400 Subject: How is "tip" spelled on Linux-speak? In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1065098324@[10.9.18.6]> References: <200310011720.h91HKKvZ013942@bunrab.catwhisker.org> <200310011907.h91J7c6B014470@bunrab.catwhisker.org> <20031002122237.GA1329@mercury.starshine.org> <2147483647.1065098324@[10.9.18.6]> Message-ID: <20031003002024.GA13813@snew.com> Quoting Jim Hickstein (jxh at jxh.com): > > I'll have to reboot one of the systems around here on an LNX-BBC to > > help with that. But look at modprobe serial and maybe run the > > minicom -s to create a config that points directly to the serial > > device node. > > Why not just bring back tip(1)? It's _so_ much easier to deal with, and it > Just Works. > > I am still frustrated that MacOS X doesn't come with this. ("man remote" > was there in 10.1, but they removed it in 10.2.) Please don't let Linux > abandon it, too. A remarkable number of things compile on OSX. I wanted a good "whois" and pulled the one from OpenBSD to see about porting it (it chases references). Ran "make" (ok, now "bsdmake") and it compiled. And worked. (It also compiles on NetBSD with no change). My port was done :) Good license, working code. However, whois is entirely run in the userspace. I'm not sure how well tip would do because MacOS is NOT, contrary to marketing, a BSD. It's a BSD userland. On Mach. Just like NeXTStep. With a proprietary GUI that doesn't support remote Windows. Just like NeXTStep. At least NI can be replaced with LDAP. (I understood NI, it just didn't play with the 12 other Unixes I had to deal with and they had yanked their ypserv binary, the bastards). Now, can we get non-wrong manpages for this OS? Chuck (who was tempted to fire up Igor - the big black cube - to send this). From jxh at jxh.com Thu Oct 2 19:46:30 2003 From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 21:46:30 -0500 Subject: How is "tip" spelled on Linux-speak? In-Reply-To: <20031003002024.GA13813@snew.com> References: <200310011720.h91HKKvZ013942@bunrab.catwhisker.org> <200310011907.h91J7c6B014470@bunrab.catwhisker.org> <20031002122237.GA1329@mercury.starshine.org> <2147483647.1065098324@[10.9.18.6]> <20031003002024.GA13813@snew.com> Message-ID: <2147483647.1065131190@[10.9.18.6]> > However, whois is entirely run in the userspace. I'm not sure how > well tip would do because MacOS is NOT, contrary to marketing, a BSD. No, tip(1) under MacOS X awaits a port to IOKit. Won't be me. I use minicom under Fink, and grumble. (Hint: Minicom has been so ported.) But Linux shouldn't have this problem, for Heavens's sake. From jxh at jxh.com Thu Oct 2 19:47:44 2003 From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 21:47:44 -0500 Subject: How is "tip" spelled on Linux-speak? In-Reply-To: <20031002212253.GF4912@starshine.org> References: <200310011720.h91HKKvZ013942@bunrab.catwhisker.org> <200310011907.h91J7c6B014470@bunrab.catwhisker.org> <20031002122237.GA1329@mercury.starshine.org> <2147483647.1065098324@[10.9.18.6]> <20031002212253.GF4912@starshine.org> Message-ID: <2147483647.1065131264@[10.9.18.6]> >> Why not just bring back tip(1)? It's _so_ much easier to deal with, and >> it Just Works. > > Got upstream sources? Things can be added to the BBC project if we have > sources for them, bearing in mind space considerations. I don't want to step on a license mine. But the stuff is all sitting there on my FreeBSD machines. How hard can it be? (snort) From jimd at starshine.org Thu Oct 2 19:28:52 2003 From: jimd at starshine.org (jimd at starshine.org) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 02:28:52 +0000 Subject: How is "tip" spelled on Linux-speak? In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1065131264@[10.9.18.6]> References: <200310011720.h91HKKvZ013942@bunrab.catwhisker.org> <200310011907.h91J7c6B014470@bunrab.catwhisker.org> <20031002122237.GA1329@mercury.starshine.org> <2147483647.1065098324@[10.9.18.6]> <20031002212253.GF4912@starshine.org> <2147483647.1065131264@[10.9.18.6]> Message-ID: <20031003022852.GE4231@mercury.starshine.org> On Thu, Oct 02, 2003 at 09:47:44PM -0500, Jim Hickstein wrote: >>>Why not just bring back tip(1)? It's _so_ much easier to deal with, and >>>it Just Works. >>Got upstream sources? Things can be added to the BBC project if we have >>sources for them, bearing in mind space considerations. > I don't want to step on a license mine. But the stuff is all sitting there > on my FreeBSD machines. How hard can it be? (snort) Everything on the BBC 2.0 is FSF free software compliant (since the FSF uses it as their membership card!). BSD license if FSF free. When you hear of incompatiblities between the BSD and GPL licenses that has to do with intermingling code among them. Since both allow for free use and distriction without restriction (and derivative works with their respective clauses). There's no problem there for the LNX-BBC crowd. Of course I'm assuming that the FreeBSD tip(1) is under the BSD license. :) Personally I've never liked minicom; but I use serial lines so rarely these days I don't fuss over it. On Debian boxes the apt-get -f install gkermit command is so fast it's no fuss; but anywhere else I just use whatever they have unless I'm planning to use that machine's serial lines *alot* over a long time. -- Jim Dennis From afactor at afactor.com Mon Oct 6 09:27:58 2003 From: afactor at afactor.com (Alan Factor) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 09:27:58 -0700 Subject: sendmail help Message-ID: If anybody knows a sendmail expert please let me know: I have a coprorate bounce mail server that runs out of swap space under heavy load. It also tends to open many sendmail processes (>2000). Looking for short consulting help-10 hours or so (just to troubleshoot this box). Thanks, Alan -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From rzylstra at novaworks.org Mon Oct 6 16:26:10 2003 From: rzylstra at novaworks.org (Robert Zylstra) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 16:26:10 -0700 Subject: Free IT Training at UCSC-Extension Message-ID: Can your business benefit from FREE Advanced IT Training at UCSC-Extension, Cupertino? Upgrading the technical skills of your employees can help your company to use the latest technology for maximum success. If you are a small California company with fewer that 250 employees, your company may be eligible to benefit from this extraordinary training opportunity. The opportunity is not restricted to Sunnyvale residents. Pre-Qualification is necessary! FREE! Autumn 2003 TechForce classes include: 1. Hands-On Firewall and Access Lists Starts October 16,2003 2. UNIX Administration Starts October 17, 2003 3. Hands-On Enterprise Network Security Starts October 24, 2003 4. Microsoft Exchange Server 2000/2003 Starts November 5, 2003 5. .NET Essentials (VB and C#) Starts November 6, 2003 The company selection criteria is the following: 1. Employ 250 or less employees worldwide 2. Allow employee to attend training during business hours 3. Retain trainee for 90 days following completion of training 4. Be wiling to cover the training cost which will be completely refundable when the trainee has fulfilled the above requirements For more information, please see the NOVA web site: www.nowaworks.org/businesses/training.html or call Robert Zylstra at (408) 730-7662, or e-mail; rzylstra at novaworks.org From chuck+baylisa at snew.com Mon Oct 6 17:10:23 2003 From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 20:10:23 -0400 Subject: ?? Re: Free IT Training at UCSC-Extension In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031007001023.GA9773@snew.com> Spam? Or legit? The site makes me think legit but what's the hook? Why? It's not that I'm a cynic - okay, it's not JUST that I'm a cynic, but "free lunch" and all that... (and no courses on "exchanging microsoft" - alas). Quoting Robert Zylstra (rzylstra at novaworks.org): > Can your business benefit from FREE Advanced IT Training at UCSC-Extension, > Cupertino? > > Upgrading the technical skills of your employees can help your company to > use the latest technology for maximum success. If you are a small > California company with fewer that 250 employees, your company may be > eligible to benefit from this extraordinary training opportunity. The > opportunity is not restricted to Sunnyvale residents. > > Pre-Qualification is necessary! > > FREE! Autumn 2003 TechForce classes include: > > 1. Hands-On Firewall and Access Lists > Starts October 16,2003 > > 2. UNIX Administration > Starts October 17, 2003 > > 3. Hands-On Enterprise Network Security > Starts October 24, 2003 > > 4. Microsoft Exchange Server 2000/2003 > Starts November 5, 2003 > > 5. .NET Essentials (VB and C#) > Starts November 6, 2003 > > > The company selection criteria is the following: > > 1. Employ 250 or less employees worldwide > 2. Allow employee to attend training during business hours > 3. Retain trainee for 90 days following completion of training > 4. Be wiling to cover the training cost which will be completely refundable > when the trainee has fulfilled the above requirements > > > For more information, please see the NOVA web site: > www.nowaworks.org/businesses/training.html or call Robert Zylstra at (408) > 730-7662, or e-mail; rzylstra at novaworks.org > From david at catwhisker.org Mon Oct 6 17:19:21 2003 From: david at catwhisker.org (David Wolfskill) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 17:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ?? Re: Free IT Training at UCSC-Extension In-Reply-To: <20031007001023.GA9773@snew.com> Message-ID: <200310070019.h970JLhN007257@bunrab.catwhisker.org> >Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 20:10:23 -0400 >From: Chuck Yerkes >To: Robert Zylstra >Cc: baylisa at baylisa.org >Subject: ?? Re: Free IT Training at UCSC-Extension >Spam? Or legit? The latter, from what I can tell. >The site makes me think legit but what's the hook? >Why? [Y]our tax dollars at work, I believe. >It's not that I'm a cynic - okay, it's not JUST that I'm >a cynic, but "free lunch" and all that... The submitter of the information consulted me (by writing to info at baylisa.org); we exchanged email on the matter, and I thought it would be apparopriate to use the list to let BayLISA members (and others who may be subscribed) know of the opportunity. Others are welcome to other perspectives, certainly. :-} >(and no courses on "exchanging microsoft" - alas). :-} Peace, david (current hat: postmaster at baylisa.org) -- David H. Wolfskill david at catwhisker.org If you want true virus-protection for your PC, install a non-Microsoft OS on it. Plausible candidates include FreeBSD, Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, and Solaris (in alphabetical order). From matt at offmyserver.com Mon Oct 6 17:37:39 2003 From: matt at offmyserver.com (Matt Olander) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 17:37:39 -0700 Subject: ?? Re: Free IT Training at UCSC-Extension In-Reply-To: <20031007001023.GA9773@snew.com>; from chuck+baylisa@snew.com on Mon, Oct 06, 2003 at 08:10:23PM -0400 References: <20031007001023.GA9773@snew.com> Message-ID: <20031006173739.B41093@knight.ixsystems.net> On Mon, Oct 06, 2003 at 08:10:23PM -0400, Chuck Yerkes wrote: > Spam? Or legit? > The site makes me think legit but what's the hook? > Why? yeah, we've actually talked to these guys. the offer is legit, except you have to pay a deposit for the actual cost of the course. just so happens that the deposit is the full amount for the class. once the class is finished, you get your money back from the government fund. you have to qualify to participate, but that was pretty lax I believe ;) cheers, -matt > > > Quoting Robert Zylstra (rzylstra at novaworks.org): > > Can your business benefit from FREE Advanced IT Training at UCSC-Extension, > > Cupertino? > > > > Upgrading the technical skills of your employees can help your company to > > use the latest technology for maximum success. If you are a small > > California company with fewer that 250 employees, your company may be > > eligible to benefit from this extraordinary training opportunity. The > > opportunity is not restricted to Sunnyvale residents. > > > > Pre-Qualification is necessary! > > > > FREE! Autumn 2003 TechForce classes include: > > > > 1. Hands-On Firewall and Access Lists > > Starts October 16,2003 > > > > 2. UNIX Administration > > Starts October 17, 2003 > > > > 3. Hands-On Enterprise Network Security > > Starts October 24, 2003 > > > > 4. Microsoft Exchange Server 2000/2003 > > Starts November 5, 2003 > > > > 5. .NET Essentials (VB and C#) > > Starts November 6, 2003 > > > > > > The company selection criteria is the following: > > > > 1. Employ 250 or less employees worldwide > > 2. Allow employee to attend training during business hours > > 3. Retain trainee for 90 days following completion of training > > 4. Be wiling to cover the training cost which will be completely refundable > > when the trainee has fulfilled the above requirements > > > > > > For more information, please see the NOVA web site: > > www.nowaworks.org/businesses/training.html or call Robert Zylstra at (408) > > 730-7662, or e-mail; rzylstra at novaworks.org > > -- Matt Olander (408)943-4100 Phone (408)943-4101 Fax www.offmyserver.com -- "Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't" -Mark Twain From greg.edwards at lmco.com Mon Oct 6 17:53:08 2003 From: greg.edwards at lmco.com (Edwards, Greg) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 17:53:08 -0700 Subject: ?? Re: Free IT Training at UCSC-Extension Message-ID: <982A2933712F3740921D842654ED470D0246C3E3@EMSS01M12.us.lmco.com> They need more students. They are trying to get people interested. Greg Edwards, part time instructor (CISSP, Wireless Security, AntiVirus) at UCSC Extension. -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Yerkes [mailto:chuck+baylisa at snew.com] Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 5:10 PM To: Robert Zylstra Cc: baylisa at baylisa.org Subject: ?? Re: Free IT Training at UCSC-Extension Spam? Or legit? The site makes me think legit but what's the hook? Why? It's not that I'm a cynic - okay, it's not JUST that I'm a cynic, but "free lunch" and all that... (and no courses on "exchanging microsoft" - alas). Quoting Robert Zylstra (rzylstra at novaworks.org): > Can your business benefit from FREE Advanced IT Training at UCSC-Extension, > Cupertino? > > Upgrading the technical skills of your employees can help your company to > use the latest technology for maximum success. If you are a small > California company with fewer that 250 employees, your company may be > eligible to benefit from this extraordinary training opportunity. The > opportunity is not restricted to Sunnyvale residents. > > Pre-Qualification is necessary! > > FREE! Autumn 2003 TechForce classes include: > > 1. Hands-On Firewall and Access Lists > Starts October 16,2003 > > 2. UNIX Administration > Starts October 17, 2003 > > 3. Hands-On Enterprise Network Security > Starts October 24, 2003 > > 4. Microsoft Exchange Server 2000/2003 > Starts November 5, 2003 > > 5. .NET Essentials (VB and C#) > Starts November 6, 2003 > > > The company selection criteria is the following: > > 1. Employ 250 or less employees worldwide > 2. Allow employee to attend training during business hours > 3. Retain trainee for 90 days following completion of training > 4. Be wiling to cover the training cost which will be completely refundable > when the trainee has fulfilled the above requirements > > > For more information, please see the NOVA web site: > www.nowaworks.org/businesses/training.html or call Robert Zylstra at (408) > 730-7662, or e-mail; rzylstra at novaworks.org > From chuck+baylisa at snew.com Mon Oct 6 18:43:42 2003 From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 21:43:42 -0400 Subject: ?? Re: Free IT Training at UCSC-Extension In-Reply-To: <20031006173739.B41093@knight.ixsystems.net> References: <20031007001023.GA9773@snew.com> <20031006173739.B41093@knight.ixsystems.net> Message-ID: <20031007014342.GA25744@snew.com> Quoting Matt Olander (matt at offmyserver.com): > On Mon, Oct 06, 2003 at 08:10:23PM -0400, Chuck Yerkes wrote: > > Spam? Or legit? > > The site makes me think legit but what's the hook? > > Why? > > yeah, we've actually talked to these guys. the offer is legit, except > you have to pay a deposit for the actual cost of the course. just so > happens that the deposit is the full amount for the class. once the > class is finished, you get your money back from the government fund. Very cool! That wasn't clear. I hope Governor Coleman won't cancel it :) From alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com Mon Oct 6 18:02:51 2003 From: alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com (Alvin Oga) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 18:02:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ?? Re: Free IT Training at UCSC-Extension - humm In-Reply-To: <200310070019.h970JLhN007257@bunrab.catwhisker.org> Message-ID: hi ya On Mon, 6 Oct 2003, David Wolfskill wrote: > >The site makes me think legit but what's the hook? > >Why? > > [Y]our tax dollars at work, I believe. the UC system gets their standard $295/class ... or whatever they charge .. or $1999.99 classes typically about 1/3 goes to the teacher the students gets to learn (new?) stuff the corp might fill in the paperwork to get a refund of the fees and is stuck with said admin for 90 more days to get their refunds content of the material and teacher might be the "what's the catch" - UC classes are taught by every spectrum of teachers you can imagine .. good -- normal -- bad c ya alvin From matt at offmyserver.com Mon Oct 6 19:31:08 2003 From: matt at offmyserver.com (Matt Olander) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 19:31:08 -0700 Subject: ?? Re: Free IT Training at UCSC-Extension In-Reply-To: <20031007014342.GA25744@snew.com>; from chuck+baylisa@snew.com on Mon, Oct 06, 2003 at 09:43:42PM -0400 References: <20031007001023.GA9773@snew.com> <20031006173739.B41093@knight.ixsystems.net> <20031007014342.GA25744@snew.com> Message-ID: <20031006193108.B41921@knight.ixsystems.net> On Mon, Oct 06, 2003 at 09:43:42PM -0400, Chuck Yerkes wrote: > > yeah, we've actually talked to these guys. the offer is legit, except > > you have to pay a deposit for the actual cost of the course. just so > > happens that the deposit is the full amount for the class. once the > > class is finished, you get your money back from the government fund. > > Very cool! > That wasn't clear. > > I hope Governor Coleman won't cancel it :) hahahahaha! -- Matt Olander (408)943-4100 Phone (408)943-4101 Fax www.offmyserver.com -- "Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't" -Mark Twain From dave at pdi.com Mon Oct 6 21:31:07 2003 From: dave at pdi.com (David Fent) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 21:31:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ?? Re: Free IT Training at UCSC-Extension - humm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Any ideas on how our friends who are unemployed can take advantage of this and how those of us working for larger companies (that don't want us to be gone during working hours) can take advantage of this? Dave On Mon, 6 Oct 2003, Alvin Oga wrote: > > hi ya > > On Mon, 6 Oct 2003, David Wolfskill wrote: > > > >The site makes me think legit but what's the hook? > > >Why? > > > > [Y]our tax dollars at work, I believe. > > the UC system gets their standard $295/class ... or whatever they > charge .. or $1999.99 classes > typically about 1/3 goes to the teacher > > the students gets to learn (new?) stuff > > > the corp might fill in the paperwork to get a refund of the > fees and is stuck with said admin for 90 more days to get > their refunds > > > content of the material and teacher might be the "what's the catch" > - UC classes are taught by every spectrum of teachers > you can imagine .. good -- normal -- bad > > c ya > alvin > > > -- David Fent - Systems Administrator - PDI/Dreamworks From david at catwhisker.org Mon Oct 6 21:40:18 2003 From: david at catwhisker.org (David Wolfskill) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 21:40:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ?? Re: Free IT Training at UCSC-Extension - humm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200310070440.h974eIu7008600@bunrab.catwhisker.org> >Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 21:31:07 -0700 (PDT) >From: David Fent >To: Alvin Oga >Cc: David Wolfskill , >Subject: Re: ?? Re: Free IT Training at UCSC-Extension - humm >Any ideas on how our friends who are unemployed can take >advantage of this and how those of us working for larger companies (that >don't want us to be gone during working hours) can take advantage of this? You might contact the person who posted the original message, or inquire of UCSC Extension. Peace, david -- David H. Wolfskill david at catwhisker.org If you want true virus-protection for your PC, install a non-Microsoft OS on it. Plausible candidates include FreeBSD, Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, and Solaris (in alphabetical order). From matt at offmyserver.com Mon Oct 6 21:54:18 2003 From: matt at offmyserver.com (Matt Olander) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 21:54:18 -0700 Subject: ?? Re: Free IT Training at UCSC-Extension - humm In-Reply-To: ; from dave@pdi.com on Mon, Oct 06, 2003 at 09:31:07PM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20031006215417.B42195@knight.ixsystems.net> On Mon, Oct 06, 2003 at 09:31:07PM -0700, David Fent wrote: > Any ideas on how our friends who are unemployed can take > advantage of this and how those of us working for larger companies (that > don't want us to be gone during working hours) can take advantage of this? well, the 2nd point is exactly what I stressed to the rep that called me. we'd definitely send a couple people through if they had evening/weekend courses. as for the first point, somebody must have a semi-defunct consulting business ;) -matt > > Dave > > On Mon, 6 > Oct 2003, Alvin Oga wrote: > > > > > hi ya > > > > On Mon, 6 Oct 2003, David Wolfskill wrote: > > > > > >The site makes me think legit but what's the hook? > > > >Why? > > > > > > [Y]our tax dollars at work, I believe. > > > > the UC system gets their standard $295/class ... or whatever they > > charge .. or $1999.99 classes > > typically about 1/3 goes to the teacher > > > > the students gets to learn (new?) stuff > > > > > > the corp might fill in the paperwork to get a refund of the > > fees and is stuck with said admin for 90 more days to get > > their refunds > > > > > > content of the material and teacher might be the "what's the catch" > > - UC classes are taught by every spectrum of teachers > > you can imagine .. good -- normal -- bad > > > > c ya > > alvin > > > > > > > > -- > David Fent - Systems Administrator - PDI/Dreamworks > -- Matt Olander (408)943-4100 Phone (408)943-4101 Fax www.offmyserver.com -- "Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't" -Mark Twain From fscked at pacbell.net Tue Oct 7 09:03:24 2003 From: fscked at pacbell.net (richard childers / kg6hac) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 09:03:24 -0700 Subject: SBA Message-ID: <3F82E3CC.1060700@pacbell.net> Have any of the budding entrepreneurs reading these words spent any time working with the SBA on their business plans, or any other aspects of their business development? Inquiring minds want to know. -- richard Richard Childers / Zenior Engineer Daemonized Nyetworking Systems https://www.daemonized.com (415) 759-5571 From vraptor at employees.org Thu Oct 9 10:36:32 2003 From: vraptor at employees.org (vraptor at employees.org) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 10:36:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ?? Re: Free IT Training at UCSC-Extension - humm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dave-- NOVA has two sides, the business support side and the side w/ programs for the unemployed. The program that was posted to BayLISA is funded by grants to the business support side. I don't know if there is a way to get that sort of training after hours. I can speak to the issue of training/re-training funds for the unemployed, having recently started down this path. If you are without a job, you can often get training even if you do/did not qualify for UI. These programs are all funded by the Workforce Investment Act. However, the grants are administered by different groups. The NOVA Connect! shop in Sunnyvale for job seekers is very good. I was quite heartened to find such a caring and supportive group of career counselors working there. If you live in their area of coverage (Sunnyvale, Mt. View, Cupertino, and others), it's highly likely an unemployed person will qualify for re-training (especially if they are in IT). They can also help you, no matter where you are residing, if you are currently receiving UI. However, being a resident of San Jose and not eligible for UI, their training grants don't apply to me, though I can still use their center for it's other services. San Jose and environs residents have to use the WIA grant receivers, Silicon Valley WIN, to get re-/training funds. Let's just say, they aren't very "accessible", or at least, I haven't found them to be--of course, I haven't even managed to *talk* to anyone yet. :-/. YMMV. NOVA main site: Connect! One-Stop: SVWIN main site: One caveat: WIA and state-funded training is generally limited to 1 year or less programs and generally focused on vocational-type training (Medical assisting, HVAC, surgical tech, etc.). You have to do labor market research on the area you want training in, to support your request--i.e. "prove" it's viable for employment. HTH-- =Nadine= On Mon, 6 Oct 2003, David Fent wrote: >Any ideas on how our friends who are unemployed can take >advantage of this and how those of us working for larger companies (that >don't want us to be gone during working hours) can take advantage of this? > >Dave > >On Mon, 6 >Oct 2003, Alvin Oga wrote: > >> >> hi ya >> >> On Mon, 6 Oct 2003, David Wolfskill wrote: >> >> > >The site makes me think legit but what's the hook? >> > >Why? >> > >> > [Y]our tax dollars at work, I believe. >> >> the UC system gets their standard $295/class ... or whatever they >> charge .. or $1999.99 classes >> typically about 1/3 goes to the teacher >> >> the students gets to learn (new?) stuff >> >> >> the corp might fill in the paperwork to get a refund of the >> fees and is stuck with said admin for 90 more days to get >> their refunds >> >> >> content of the material and teacher might be the "what's the catch" >> - UC classes are taught by every spectrum of teachers >> you can imagine .. good -- normal -- bad >> >> c ya >> alvin >> >> >> > >-- >David Fent - Systems Administrator - PDI/Dreamworks > > From pmui at usenix.org Thu Oct 9 14:34:30 2003 From: pmui at usenix.org (Peter Mui) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 14:34:30 -0700 Subject: Updated LISA Conference Info Message-ID: <5E0596D4-FAA0-11D7-A85A-003065776E16@usenix.org> ** Added: Q&A sessions with conference speakers ** Pre-registration pricing extended to October 20 ** Cheap SouthWest Fares to San Diego Register for LISA at http://www.usenix.org/events/lisa03/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ LISA '03 is a little over two weeks away, and the breadth and quality of this year's tutorials, refereed papers, invited talks, and range of participants make this one of the strongest LISA offerings ever. The professional training by experts such as Marcus Ranum, Trent Hein, Ned McClain, Gerald Carter, David Skoll, Mike DeGraw-Bertsch, and David Rhoades will give you the information, techniques, tools, and strategies you need to practice and implement effective system administration today and tomorrow. As the conference approaches, some sessions stand out as particularly timely and relevant: o Verisign vs. ICANN: Paul Vixie, the chief architect of bind, will speak at length about the controversy surrounding VeriSign's recent modification of Internet behavior to redirect nonexistent URLs to an advertising page. For a good backgrounder on the controversy, see http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/onlamp/2003/09/22/vixie.html. o Extra Expert Access: As a last-minute addition, we're organizing Q&A events where session speakers meet with attendees in a more informal and extended setting. o Bid Now Know-How: eBay's Director of Availability and Performance Engineering, Paul Kilmartin, will discuss the challenges of the auction site's highly complex real-time computing demands. o Spam Spam Spam Spam: A Spam Mini-Symposium will demonstrate emerging spam-fighting techniques such as adaptive filtering and will feature an all-star panel discussion on forthcoming spam advances. o Look Ma, No Firewalls: Abe Singer of the San Diego Supercomputer Center (SDSC) will explain how SDSC has gone four years without an intrusion, even though they don't use firewalls. o In Search of Excellence: Gene Kim will look at "Best of Breed" audit, management, operations, and security practices, providing examples of these practices as implemented in large organizations. o Prime Time Penguin: Moshe Bar will examine the growing trend of building large, industrial-strength data centers inexpensively out of Linux clusters. o UL Approved?: David Plonka will report on how a defect in a popular consumer-grade router threatened the University of Wisconsin's Internet connectivity. Please make sure you attend this year's LISA: we've made it well worth your while. ---------------------------------------------------------------- WHAT: LISA: The 17th Large Installation Systems Administration Conference WHEN: October 26-31, 2003 WHERE: San Diego, CA, Town & Country Resort and Convention Center WHO: System administrators, network administrators, CIOs, CTOs, security researchers, tool providers, support personnel, etc. WHY: To get to and stay on the cutting edge of computer system administration HOW: http://www.usenix.org/lisa03/ ---------------------------------------------------------------- Multiple Employee Discount: USENIX offers a $195 per-person discount to organizations sending 5 or more employees to LISA. Email lisa03_reg at usenix.org to get this discount for your group. Feel free to contact me anytime with questions. Cheers, -Peter Peter Mui USENIX Association 2560 9th Street STE 215 Berkeley, CA 94710 510 528 8649 ext. 28 pmui at usenix.org From fscked at pacbell.net Thu Oct 9 14:52:48 2003 From: fscked at pacbell.net (richard childers / kg6hac) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 14:52:48 -0700 Subject: Do You Know SCO? Message-ID: <3F85D8B0.80401@pacbell.net> Do you know SCO? Santa Cruz Operations' UNIX, that is? I don't know the version of SCO; but I know someone, who has a customer, whose SCO installation had a hard drive die. They need help. It would be fair to charge $80 an hour - but it would also be fair to say that you would be expected to provide expertise, in exchange for the privilege of charging money, for sitting on your butt, restoring their data. Before I can provide interested parties with the contact information, you must convince -me- that you know more than I do about this problem ... so that I can hand it off to you, in good faith. Here's the history. I was brought in to diagnose the problem; hardware or software? After some poking around, I found SCO's equivalent of /usr/adm/messages, and in it, hard error messages naming a device and the bad blocks. I extracted the device name, translated the UNIX nomenclature into a SCSI device for the benefit of the service provider, and also provided a list of bad blocks. Several weeks later, I was called and asked to come down ASAP; the service provider was returning the computer to the customer, the drive had been swapped, but it wasn't booting with the new drive, only when they put the old drive in. He was hoping I could help. The old drive was a once-widely recognized 9 GB SCSI of, I'd guess, late 1990s vintage. He was unable to replace it, he said, and so had installed a larger 30 GB drive, but it didn't work. Although I won't go into the physical hardware here, it's not unlikely that there was a mismatch in the SCSI controller, cable, and drive; I have recommended that he get an identical drive simply because although it is very intellectually satisfying to puzzle out what is not working, it also takes many hours, is rarely cost-effective, and requires technicians with at least a two-year degree from a junior college in electronics or computer hardware, which, I judge, may be lacking here (and for this reason, diplomacy is required, as well as technical expertise). To make matters worse, throughout this sequence of events he had insisted that Norton Ghost would be sufficient unto all his requirements. Having recently dealt with a Linux server that had been Ghosted (and it was one un-bootable, un-filesystem-checkable piece of silicon, too), I had my doubts; I know too much about how filesystems and hard drives and bad block mapping works to assume that you can buy a one-size-fits-all solution, shrinkwrapped, at CompUSA. But I have not said so explicitly; I hate to argue with a customer. (Again, diplomacy is indicated.) My intuition is that there are a combination of problems here; a hardware mismatch combined with an operating system gotcha. (I'm not against working on this directly, if there's someone out there who wants to answer questions and permit me to do the dirty work in exchange for a small honorarium for their wisdom and guidance, by the way, if they're reading this, are knowledgeable, but are feeling undermotivated ... contact me.) My intuition is that the solution involves negotiating the hardware mismatch ... reconciling the operating system gotcha ... building a new filesystem ... and reloading the data from backups, made either immediately before the disk is exchanged, or from a stack of tapes whose contents and dates of creation would probably need to be audited and verified beforehand (IE, more hours of work). If you are reading this, have detailed expertise with SCO, and can provide objective references to materials which corroborate your diagnosis, analysis, or terminology (IE, URLs), I'd like to discuss either leveraging off of your expertise, or handing this off to you, entirely, so that the customer - poor wretches, they are underpaid, overeducated financial and statistical analysts trapped in a world of high finance but receiving only crumbs for their economic labors ... they have more in common with systems administrators then they do with financiers - can have their computer back, working reliably, their faith in UNIX (dare I say it?) restore(8)'d. (-: Thanks in advance, -- richard Richard Childers / Senor Engineer Daemonized Networking Systems https://www.daemonized.com (415) 759-5571 From fscked at pacbell.net Thu Oct 9 15:58:33 2003 From: fscked at pacbell.net (richard childers / kg6hac) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 15:58:33 -0700 Subject: Do You Know SCO? (clarification) In-Reply-To: <3F85D8B0.80401@pacbell.net> References: <3F85D8B0.80401@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <3F85E819.1060306@pacbell.net> I'm seeing a lot of good answers, but it's also clear pretty much everyone thus far has about as much SCO experience as I do, and so the suggestions are fairly common-sense but lacking in those gritty details. (format.dat's a good guess, though; tip of the hat to Maureen Woodward, she's in the lead, such as it is.) It might help if I clarify matters by saying that it is -not- the boot disk which was replaced. Let's see, I think I have some error messages scribbled down here ... haven't Google'd 'em yet. G hd_config WARNING: hd: no root disk controller was found H init ime Loadable Driver may be required G drain8042 PANIC: srmountfun Error 19 mounting rootdev (1/42) Error 19 opening dumpdev (1/41) Dump not completed *** Safe to Power Off *** I also note that the devices were all visible to the SCSI controller's BIOS, so that shoots my hardware incompatibility theory down ... (Gee ... I could see how printing a cryptic error message on the whiteboard, and then challenging the crowd to diagnose the problem, one question at a time, with a prize for whoever gets it first, could be a real crowd-pleaser ... at a meeting of systems administrators.) -- richard richard childers / kg6hac wrote: > Do you know SCO? > > Santa Cruz Operations' UNIX, that is? > > I don't know the version of SCO; but I know someone, who has a > customer, whose SCO installation had a hard drive die. They need help. > > It would be fair to charge $80 an hour - but it would also be fair to > say that you would be expected to provide expertise, in exchange for > the privilege of charging money, for sitting on your butt, restoring > their data. > > Before I can provide interested parties with the contact information, > you must convince -me- that you know more than I do about this problem > ... so that I can hand it off to you, in good faith. > > Here's the history. > > I was brought in to diagnose the problem; hardware or software? After > some poking around, I found SCO's equivalent of /usr/adm/messages, and > in it, hard error messages naming a device and the bad blocks. I > extracted the device name, translated the UNIX nomenclature into a > SCSI device for the benefit of the service provider, and also provided > a list of bad blocks. > > Several weeks later, I was called and asked to come down ASAP; the > service provider was returning the computer to the customer, the drive > had been swapped, but it wasn't booting with the new drive, only when > they put the old drive in. He was hoping I could help. > > The old drive was a once-widely recognized 9 GB SCSI of, I'd guess, > late 1990s vintage. He was unable to replace it, he said, and so had > installed a larger 30 GB drive, but it didn't work. > > Although I won't go into the physical hardware here, it's not unlikely > that there was a mismatch in the SCSI controller, cable, and drive; I > have recommended that he get an identical drive simply because > although it is very intellectually satisfying to puzzle out what is > not working, it also takes many hours, is rarely cost-effective, and > requires technicians with at least a two-year degree from a junior > college in electronics or computer hardware, which, I judge, may be > lacking here (and for this reason, diplomacy is required, as well as > technical expertise). > > To make matters worse, throughout this sequence of events he had > insisted that Norton Ghost would be sufficient unto all his > requirements. Having recently dealt with a Linux server that had been > Ghosted (and it was one un-bootable, un-filesystem-checkable piece of > silicon, too), I had my doubts; I know too much about how filesystems > and hard drives and bad block mapping works to assume that you can buy > a one-size-fits-all solution, shrinkwrapped, at CompUSA. > > But I have not said so explicitly; I hate to argue with a customer. > (Again, diplomacy is indicated.) > > My intuition is that there are a combination of problems here; a > hardware mismatch combined with an operating system gotcha. > > (I'm not against working on this directly, if there's someone out > there who wants to answer questions and permit me to do the dirty work > in exchange for a small honorarium for their wisdom and guidance, by > the way, if they're reading this, are knowledgeable, but are feeling > undermotivated ... contact me.) > > My intuition is that the solution involves negotiating the hardware > mismatch ... reconciling the operating system gotcha ... building a > new filesystem ... and reloading the data from backups, made either > immediately before the disk is exchanged, or from a stack of tapes > whose contents and dates of creation would probably need to be audited > and verified beforehand (IE, more hours of work). > > If you are reading this, have detailed expertise with SCO, and can > provide objective references to materials which corroborate your > diagnosis, analysis, or terminology (IE, URLs), I'd like to discuss > either leveraging off of your expertise, or handing this off to you, > entirely, so that the customer - poor wretches, they are underpaid, > overeducated financial and statistical analysts trapped in a world of > high finance but receiving only crumbs for their economic labors ... > they have more in common with systems administrators then they do with > financiers - can have their computer back, working reliably, their > faith in UNIX (dare I say it?) restore(8)'d. > > (-: > > Thanks in advance, > > > -- richard > > Richard Childers / Senor Engineer > Daemonized Networking Systems > https://www.daemonized.com > (415) 759-5571 > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > You have received this message via the baylisa-jobs at baylisa.org > mailing list. > For questions or comments regarding list admin, email > postmaster at baylisa.org. > From camorris at mars.ark.com Fri Oct 10 15:40:58 2003 From: camorris at mars.ark.com (Cheryl Morris) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 15:40:58 -0700 Subject: Request for case study assistance Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031010152756.021c5db8@mars.ark.com> I am a doctoral student with a project on the topic of Intrusion Response for an Information Security course this semester. Part of the project is to report on a case study of intrusion response and how it was handled by a real company, non-profit or educational organization. The professor has made it very clear that NO specific identifying information is to be given in the report (which only he will read) and that the organization involved is to be identified as Company X, etc. My dilemma is that I need a case study! And, I will need it soon. During this project, I am working on Intrusion Response from the Legal, Ethical and Reporting considerations and would very much like to have a case study where there was a report made to law enforcement. If not, a case delineating the problems of reporting when there has been an intrusion would be helpful (was there a security plan, a person designated to report to law enforcement, did the intrusion involve a honeypot, was there indication from logs that scouting was underway, etc). The best way to contact me is via e-mail but messages can also be left at my home (650) 561-9820. Thank you for your help! Cheryl Morris Doctoral Student, Nova Southeastern University From ryoohki at ryoohki.org Sat Oct 11 05:12:57 2003 From: ryoohki at ryoohki.org (Michael Cheselka) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 05:12:57 -0700 Subject: ?? Re: Free IT Training at UCSC-Extension - humm Message-ID: Do these UCSC-Extension Free IT training classes have a web site? If so, what is the URL? Thanks! Mike 408.505.2365 -- When in the Potemkin Wired be a Potemkin Lain. From star at starshine.org Mon Oct 13 08:46:49 2003 From: star at starshine.org (Heather Stern) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 08:46:49 -0700 Subject: Brent Chapman Thurs @ BayLISA (Oct 16, 7:30 pm) Message-ID: <20031013154649.GA3834@starshine.org> Open up your Day Planners, calendars, let the department secretary pass the note around - BayLISA, the Bay Area Large Installation System Administrators, meets Thursday October 16th. This week :) For this speaker more than most you might be interested in inviting your manager or members of other departments who work with you. The topic of the evening is: MBAs for Sysadmins: Why Would A Hard Core Techie Like Me Get An MBA? Brent Chapman is already exceedingly well known in his field, famous for creation of mailing manager software he doens't even like anymore, coauthor of the O'Reilly book "Building Internet Firewalls" (now in its second edition), and invited speaker to conferences in our field. Yet, he went to Australia and sought out a degree in business administration. Since his return he's been flooded with questions about it - in this week's meeting, we'll hear the answers. Location: Cupertino, Apple Campus, De Anza Building Three 10500 N. De Anza, just north of Stevens Creek. parking lot has blue apples. Time: 7ish, come on in, chat, grab a soda* 7:30 announcements start then the speaker til about 9:30....uh, maybe ten. Afterdinner: yes, one of three or four choices nearby (we're planning to have maps) * Yes, folks, we will have drinks this time. Cookies will be back too. SPECIAL NOTE THIS MONTH: October is the time of nominations for the November elections. If you are interested in joining the BayLISA board - helping us work on interesting things like who will be the upcoming speakers, which of us will seek out soda, getting the word out about BayLISA to other groups - and occasional boring corporate things - then consider your candidate's statement, and either * post it to the baylisa general list * post it to the wheels (blw list) * announce your candidacy at the October meeting. Wr have 4 positions open this year. Board positions are for a period of two years unless some event in your life forces you to step down. Board meetings are once a month on First Thursdays. MEMBERSHIP You must be a currently paid up member of BayLISA to vote - or to be a Board nenber - so get it done now, before the rush :) It's $45 and we take checks or cash. Students with ID - just $10. If you know any corporations who'd like their name in lights as one of our sponsors this year - $500. For any of you who tend to forget your pocketbook, we have paypal payment available online. ALSO We're seeking Short But Cool speakers for December: a 10 to 15 minute presentation about something the sysadmins and netadmins of the silicon valley and bay area would surely find ... cool! -* Heather Stern * Arch (secretary) BayLISA Board * http://www.baylisa.org/ *- From fscked at pacbell.net Mon Oct 13 11:19:12 2003 From: fscked at pacbell.net (richard childers / kg6hac) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 11:19:12 -0700 Subject: Implementing Effective Business Contracts (URL) Message-ID: <3F8AECA0.5030201@pacbell.net> Note: you need to register. No reason not to, really, unless you want to see the SBA program fold, for lack of metrics to justify its existence. I don't think they'll throw you out, but why take the chance? http://www.acteva.com/booking.cfm?binid=1&bevaID=55172 If that fails, go to http://www.acteva.com and search for "SBA". -- richard Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services https://www.daemonized.com (415) 759-5571 From dave at pdi.com Mon Oct 13 13:48:12 2003 From: dave at pdi.com (David Fent) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 13:48:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mail Routing to domain and sub-domain In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030925204707.00ac4090@mail.wwc.com> Message-ID: The previous thread on sub-domains inspired me to post this question. Problem: Mail sent to sub-domain test.pdi.com goes to domain pdi.com. For example, if I send a message to dave at test.pdi.com, it is routed to dave at pdi.com instead. Looking at the headers, it's as if something has stripped off the test subdomain. Here's a copy of the header: Return-Path: Delivered-To: dave at test.pdi.com Received: from zaboo.pdi.com (zaboo.pdi.com [10.11.1.29]) by courier.pdi.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9800ABC42 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 2003 11:49:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 11:49:42 -0700 (PDT) From: David Fent To: dave at pdi.com Subject: Text MX Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Infrastructure: pdi.com is our primary domain. test.pdi.com is a test domain for Windows Active Directory and Exchange. Since we serve the test.pdi.com domain from the same server, we simply use a spcl.domain file and include it after running h2n. So, the _windows zones such as _msdcs.test.pdi.com are all served properly. The mail server on pdi.com is running postfix rather than sendmail. Objective: If mail is directed to dave at test.pdi.com, I want it to go to the exchange mail server in the test.pdi.com domain. Addtl Notes: I have added an MX record in the form of: test.pdi.com. NS MX 5 aleph.test.pdi.com. (aleph is the exchange server) Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to do the trick. I also added test.pdi.com to the resolver on the mail server. Maybe the mail server is not using dns to determine mail routing? Or it's has the domain hard coded somewhere? I'm not an expert in this area by any means, so any suggestions you may have will be most appreciated. I've already hit the ISC archives, but didn't find anything that helped - may be looking for the wrong thing though. Postfix archives are next. Thank You, Dave From ddowdle at leopard.net Mon Oct 13 14:36:25 2003 From: ddowdle at leopard.net (David M. Dowdle) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 14:36:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mail Routing to domain and sub-domain In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: test.pdi.com does not exist on your public nameservers likewise aleph.test.pdi.com. does not exist. I suspect your problem is actually that your mailserver is stripping it off though , in a masquerade-for-every-machine-in-domian. Publish test.pdi.com publically, then try from an outside server On Mon, 13 Oct 2003, David Fent wrote: > The previous thread on sub-domains inspired me to post this question. > > Problem: Mail sent to sub-domain test.pdi.com goes to domain pdi.com. For > example, if I send a message to dave at test.pdi.com, it is routed to > dave at pdi.com instead. Looking at the headers, it's as if something has > stripped off the test subdomain. Here's a copy of the header: > > Return-Path: > Delivered-To: dave at test.pdi.com > Received: from zaboo.pdi.com (zaboo.pdi.com [10.11.1.29]) > by courier.pdi.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9800ABC42 > for ; Mon, 13 Oct 2003 11:49:42 -0700 (PDT) > Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 11:49:42 -0700 (PDT) > From: David Fent > To: dave at pdi.com > Subject: Text MX > Message-ID: > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > > Infrastructure: pdi.com is our primary domain. test.pdi.com is a test > domain for Windows Active Directory and Exchange. Since we serve the > test.pdi.com domain from the same server, we simply use a spcl.domain file > and include it after running h2n. So, the _windows zones such as > _msdcs.test.pdi.com are all served properly. The mail server on pdi.com is > running postfix rather than sendmail. > > Objective: If mail is directed to dave at test.pdi.com, I want it to go to > the exchange mail server in the test.pdi.com domain. > > Addtl Notes: I have added an MX record in the form of: > > test.pdi.com. NS MX 5 aleph.test.pdi.com. (aleph is the exchange server) > > Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to do the trick. I also added > test.pdi.com to the resolver on the mail server. Maybe the mail server is > not using dns to determine mail routing? Or it's has the domain hard coded > somewhere? I'm not an expert in this area by any means, so any > suggestions you may have will be most appreciated. I've already hit the > ISC archives, but didn't find anything that helped - may be looking for > the wrong thing though. Postfix archives are next. > > > > Thank You, Dave > > > > > > > From rsr at inorganic.org Mon Oct 13 22:55:24 2003 From: rsr at inorganic.org (Roy S. Rapoport) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 22:55:24 -0700 Subject: Implementing Effective Business Contracts (URL) In-Reply-To: <3F8AECA0.5030201@pacbell.net> References: <3F8AECA0.5030201@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20031014055524.GF10944@nag.inorganic.org> On Mon, Oct 13, 2003 at 11:19:12AM -0700, richard childers / kg6hac wrote: > http://www.acteva.com/booking.cfm?binid=1&bevaID=55172 > > If that fails, go to http://www.acteva.com and search for "SBA". Hey, thanks Richard! This looks like a useful course for those of us doing independent contracting. -roy From dan_bethe at yahoo.com Tue Oct 14 02:47:13 2003 From: dan_bethe at yahoo.com (Dan Bethe) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 02:47:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Implementing Effective Business Contracts (URL) In-Reply-To: <20031014055524.GF10944@nag.inorganic.org> Message-ID: <20031014094713.2829.qmail@web11002.mail.yahoo.com> --- __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From fscked at pacbell.net Mon Oct 13 11:14:45 2003 From: fscked at pacbell.net (richard childers / kg6hac) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 11:14:45 -0700 Subject: Implementing Effective Business Contracts Message-ID: <3F8AEB95.7080608@pacbell.net> [Message transmission delayed because HTML content caused it to be intercepted for human intervention, and this human's work schedule prevented action on it until now. dhw] Where: SBA Entrepreneur Center 455 Market St., 6th Floor San Francisco, CA 94105 When: Wednesday, Oct. 15, 2003 6:00 PM - 8:30 PM Cost: $0.00 Details: The seminar will cover the basics of how to negotiate, write, or review a simple but effective sales, supply/distribution, or service contract. While this class will be taught by an experienced business attorney, the content does not constitute legal advice. -- richard Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services https://www.daemonized.com (415) 759-5571 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fscked at pacbell.net Mon Oct 13 14:11:13 2003 From: fscked at pacbell.net (richard childers / kg6hac) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 14:11:13 -0700 Subject: Free Course: Implementing Effective Business Contracts (resend) Message-ID: <3F8B14F1.6010307@pacbell.net> [More delays because of HTML & my schedule.] This is of potential interest to the many consultants who read this list. Regrettably, my first submission of this information did not seem to get propagated ... even though one would hope that it would be in -everyone's- interest to see that junior members are mentored, on how to analyze business contracts. (And how -does- Silicon Valley manage to continue operating, when electronic mail gets so frequently, so inexplicably, dropped, from the very repeater administered by the group that claims the greatest cumulative amount of expertise in matters Internet-related in the entire Silicon Valley? Pretty sad. But, I digress.) Where: SBA Entrepreneur Center 455 Market St., 6th Floor San Francisco, CA 94105 When: Wednesday, Oct. 15, 2003 6:00 PM - 8:30 PM Cost: $0.00 Details: The seminar will cover the basics of how to negotiate, write, or review a simple but effective sales, supply/distribution, or service contract. While this class will be taught by an experienced business attorney, the content does not constitute legal advice. As noted in the followup (which -did- get propagated), you should register in order to avoid being turned away at the door (as well as to facilitate the collection of service metrics). http://www.acteva.com/booking.cfm?binid=1&bevaID=55172 If that fails, go to http://www.acteva.com and search for "SBA". -- richard Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services https://www.daemonized.com (415) 759-5571 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at linuxmafia.com Tue Oct 14 12:33:00 2003 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 12:33:00 -0700 Subject: Free Course: Implementing Effective Business Contracts (resend) In-Reply-To: <3F8B14F1.6010307@pacbell.net> References: <3F8B14F1.6010307@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20031014193300.GX3713@linuxmafia.com> Quoting richard childers / kg6hac (fscked at pacbell.net): > [More delays because of HTML & my schedule.] > > This is of potential interest to the many consultants who read this list. > > Regrettably, my first submission of this information did not seem to get > propagated ... even though one would hope that it would be in > -everyone's- interest to see that junior members are mentored, on how to > analyze business contracts. I believe you've basically just said "Doctor, doctor, it _hurts_ when I do this." I trust you know the punchline. -- Cheers, "Don't use Outlook. Outlook is really just a security Rick Moen hole with a small e-mail client attached to it." rick at linuxmafia.com -- Brian Trosko in r.a.sf.w.r-j From rick at linuxmafia.com Tue Oct 14 15:23:43 2003 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 15:23:43 -0700 Subject: misquotes & sidesteps (and hiding behind podiums) In-Reply-To: <3F8C60F2.10409@pacbell.net> References: <3F8B14F1.6010307@pacbell.net> <20031014193300.GX3713@linuxmafia.com> <3F8C60F2.10409@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20031014222343.GE21430@linuxmafia.com> Quoting richard childers / kg6hac (fscked at pacbell.net): > "[More delays because of HTML & my schedule.]" > > It appears that you are misquoting me; I did not say this. Please check your outbound. I'm quoting back exactly how you quoted the listadmin's inserted comment, from when he manually approved your post. > While attempting to reduce a technical problem to a metaphorical, or > allegorical, description is sometimes useful, in this case it appears to > be more of an attempt to sidestep responsibility, than to accurately > depict the problem in a way so that everyone can understand it. I'm sorry, but BayLISA's reasons for filtering HTML sent to mailing lists should be apparent to others generally, even if it isn't to you. Therefore, if you prefer to have postings _not_ held for listadmin attention, in the future, you know what to do. Or, as the joke's punchline goes, "So, Don't Do That, Then." > That is, if you're saying "Don't use the service", you have a rather > indirect way of stating your mind ... leading me to wonder if you are > fearful to state your thoughts directly ... or if I have misunderstood > you [...] Ah. Well, charity suggests I assume you misunderstood me. Just to make sure there can be no further misunderstanding: Your original list post was automatically held and diverted to the listadmin, because of its HTML contents. The listadmin inserted the above-quoted bracketed comment explaining the delay, when he released your post to the list. You then ignored his explanation, and complained under the apparent misapprehension of there being a technical problem. I then attempted to call your attention to the posting delay having been proximately caused by _you_. Which then lead to the current exchange. Are we on the same page, now? > If you're not capable of responding to a technically accurate > description of what appears to be a technical problem with anything > other than hyperbole, then either it's not a -technical- problem ... or > ... well, I trust you know the punchline. Filtering HTML postings for listadmin attention isn't a "problem" of any sort; it's competent mail administration. We do that, here. -- Cheers, Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based, Rick Moen not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed, rick at linuxmafia.com modern-American-English-usage-improvement association. From michael at halligan.org Tue Oct 14 22:06:01 2003 From: michael at halligan.org (Michael T. Halligan) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 22:06:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mac files on Linux question.. Message-ID: I'm trying to help my roommate retrieve some ProTools files from a DVD he was given after a recording session.. I can seem to transfer everything except for the session file.. For some reason when linux seese one of these files it turns it into a dbase3 file. I've tried creating a new session file, ftping it to linux, it becomes a dbase3 file (at least that's what "file filename" outputs) that is no longer a protools file.. And when I just try ftping from the mounted dvd to my roommate's mac, same thing, it loses it's file type. I've been tooling around for macutils for about an hour, and still no luck.. Any thoughts beyond telling my roommate to go buy a dvd drive? -- ------------------- Michael T. Halligan Chief Geek Halligan Infrastructure Designs. http://www.halligan.org/ 2250 Jerrold Ave #11 San Francisco, CA 94124-1012 (415) 724.7998 - Mobile From fscked at pacbell.net Tue Oct 14 13:47:46 2003 From: fscked at pacbell.net (richard childers / kg6hac) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 13:47:46 -0700 Subject: misquotes & sidesteps (and hiding behind podiums) In-Reply-To: <20031014193300.GX3713@linuxmafia.com> References: <3F8B14F1.6010307@pacbell.net> <20031014193300.GX3713@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <3F8C60F2.10409@pacbell.net> [More delays because poster insists on posting HTML and the list owner has a restricted availability for dealing with this. Is it clearer now that no one is claiming that Richard wrote this bracketed comment? -- postmaster@] "[More delays because of HTML & my schedule.]" It appears that you are misquoting me; I did not say this. "I believe you've basically just said 'Doctor, doctor, it _hurts_ when I do this.' I trust you know the punchline." While attempting to reduce a technical problem to a metaphorical, or allegorical, description is sometimes useful, in this case it appears to be more of an attempt to sidestep responsibility, than to accurately depict the problem in a way so that everyone can understand it. That is, if you're saying "Don't use the service", you have a rather indirect way of stating your mind ... leading me to wonder if you are fearful to state your thoughts directly ... or if I have misunderstood you ... or, perhaps, if you can only communicate through allegory, for fear of being understood - which, in my mind, borders on a violation of the social contract implicit in the use of a common syntax and lexicon. If you're not capable of responding to a technically accurate description of what appears to be a technical problem with anything other than hyperbole, then either it's not a -technical- problem ... or ... well, I trust you know the punchline. (-: -- richard Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services https://www.daemonized.com (415) 759-5571 "Sacred cows make the tastiest burgers, if y' cook 'em just right." Rick Moen wrote: >Quoting richard childers / kg6hac (fscked at pacbell.net): > > > >>[More delays because of HTML & my schedule.] >> >>This is of potential interest to the many consultants who read this list. >> >>Regrettably, my first submission of this information did not seem to get >>propagated ... even though one would hope that it would be in >>-everyone's- interest to see that junior members are mentored, on how to >>analyze business contracts. >> >> > >I believe you've basically just said "Doctor, doctor, it _hurts_ when I >do this." I trust you know the punchline. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pmm at igtc.com Wed Oct 15 07:40:17 2003 From: pmm at igtc.com (Paul M. Moriarty) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 07:40:17 -0700 Subject: misquotes & sidesteps (and hiding behind podiums) In-Reply-To: <3F8C60F2.10409@pacbell.net> References: <3F8B14F1.6010307@pacbell.net> <20031014193300.GX3713@linuxmafia.com> <3F8C60F2.10409@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20031015144017.GA25139@igtc.igtc.com> Give me a freakin' break. Like everything else associated with BayLISA, being postmaster is a volunteer effort. There's no glory involved, just work. If you think you can make a _positive contribution_ to the organization, demonstrate it to the board. Perhaps they'll offer you the opportunity to do something for nothing and then random people can shit on you because they don't like the job you're doing. From dannyman at toldme.com Wed Oct 15 08:59:36 2003 From: dannyman at toldme.com (Danny Howard) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 08:59:36 -0700 Subject: misquotes & sidesteps (and hiding behind podiums) In-Reply-To: <3F8C60F2.10409@pacbell.net> References: <3F8B14F1.6010307@pacbell.net> <20031014193300.GX3713@linuxmafia.com> <3F8C60F2.10409@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20031015155936.GO17310@pianosa.catch22.org> If I may misquote here: Friends, colleagues, SysAdmins, lend me your eyes; I come to bury this thread, not to praise it. The sniping that we post gets archived; The good oft trimmed from attribution; So let it be with LISA. Danny, unemployed; Tells you that LISA hath noble purpose; 'Tis so, we should be nice to each other; With fortune shall LISA answer for it Here, by your involvement and the rest -- For the poster is an honourable man; So are we all, honorable men -- And women -- here, to help each other; In our professional capacities. We ought to say of one another, that; "You are my friend, faithful and just to me," And I say each of us is ambituous; And each member an honorable man -- Or woman -- who hath paid their annual Dues, and thus does LISA's coffer fill: Does this LISA seem professional? When the poor have cried for advice, some hath flamed: Our trade should be made of Sterner stuff. Yet we are professionals; Each of us honorable men -- and women. I write not to insult the poster's skill, But here I am to post what I do know. You all do love your trade: not without cause: What cause withholds you then, to reply again; Without flames -- reserved for brutish beasts; That we have not lost our reason. Bear with me; My heart is in our shared careers, with LISA; And I must pause 'til it come back to me. My apologies to Mr. Shakespeare. -danny -- http://dannyman.toldme.com/ From rick at linuxmafia.com Wed Oct 15 09:09:00 2003 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 09:09:00 -0700 Subject: misquotes & sidesteps (and hiding behind podiums) In-Reply-To: <3F8C60F2.10409@pacbell.net> References: <3F8B14F1.6010307@pacbell.net> <20031014193300.GX3713@linuxmafia.com> <3F8C60F2.10409@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20031015160900.GG3713@linuxmafia.com> Quoting richard childers / kg6hac (fscked at pacbell.net): > [More delays because poster insists on posting HTML and the list owner > has a restricted availability for dealing with this. Is it clearer now > that no one is claiming that Richard wrote this bracketed comment? > -- postmaster@] > > "[More delays because of HTML & my schedule.]" > > It appears that you are misquoting me; I did not say this. OK, one last time, then. Picture me saying these words very, very slowly and with exaggerated patience: The bracketed words were inserted by the listadmin when he manually approved your post, to explain the delay (on account of HTML contents). You appear not to have noticed or understood his explanation. I was attempting to call your attention to that explanation. If you don't want your posts automatically intercepted and held for listadmin attention, don't post HTML. Got that, now? _Yet_? From rick at linuxmafia.com Wed Oct 15 09:22:21 2003 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 09:22:21 -0700 Subject: Free Course: Implementing Effective Business Contracts (resend) In-Reply-To: <3F8D6DA3.4000009@pacbell.net> References: <3F8B14F1.6010307@pacbell.net> <20031014193300.GX3713@linuxmafia.com> <3F8D6DA3.4000009@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20031015162221.GI21430@linuxmafia.com> Quoting richard childers / kg6hac (fscked at pacbell.net): > Now that you've explained it to me, it's clear to me that this text - > > [More delays because of HTML & my schedule.] > > ... is probably from someone, explaining to you - or perhaps from you, > explaining to someone else - why the message's propagation was delayed - > it was delayed because of the inline HTML, and their schedule (whatever > that means). Thank you for belatedly joining us on the same cognitive page. The note was from the listadmin. As already detailed multiple times. > If you folks were half as organized as you'd like to appear, you'd have > written a filter that detected inline HTML, rejected the posting, and > attached a friendly note explaining why, instead of handling exceptions > manually and justifying them with allegory, metaphor, and rhetoric. The mail was held for listadmin attention. Then it was posted. Don't like that? Feel free to operate your own mailing list -- or just don't freakin' well post HTML. Entirely up to you. > Anyhow, it seems to me that insofar as you have not allowed my protest > regarding being misquoted to propagate, you are allowing a false state > of affairs to persist, presumably to maintain the impression that you > are above making mistakes; at my expense, incidentally. I am unaware of anything of yours that I have "not allowed to propagate" (nor any means by which I could do so). If you have a grievance about something, I'd suggest you experess it to blw at baylisa.org, and please be a great deal more specific. > Don't expect me to regard this as acceptable behavior. It's shoddy > leadership, at best. Let me be quite clear about this, Richard: I stepped rather far out of my way to attempt to help you by giving further explanation to you about a situation that appeared to puzzle you, although it seemed abundantly clear to me. I will not make the same mistake twice. -- Cheers, There are only 10 types of people in this world -- Rick Moen those who understand binary arithmetic and those who don't. rick at linuxmafia.com From chuck+baylisa at snew.com Wed Oct 15 11:46:21 2003 From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 14:46:21 -0400 Subject: OY: Free Course: Implementing Effective Business Contracts (resend) In-Reply-To: <3F8B14F1.6010307@pacbell.net> References: <3F8B14F1.6010307@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20031015184621.GD16447@snew.com> I really do appreciate learning about these tools that are paid for by our tax dollars and benefit us when we know about them. Really. And the SBA was a great resource for me in a previous life too. I also black hole HTML-only mail. For lists it's a bitch to archive, for many readers, thanks to Microsoft mostly, it can be dangerous and invasive (while reading the message, go and get that link to an image or nasty program - telling the sender when you read the message and from where). I use mutt to read mail, and w3m can render HTML text - in a pinch. I will argue for HTML mail over (say) PDF or (ick ick ick) .doc. The fact that I can't easily *bold* this word leaves me stuck with the same expressiveness I had on a VT100 in 1982. That's bad. Embarrasing when this is pointed out by users of proprietary mail systems like Exchange or Notes (only 15 servers needed to poorly do mail where a machine too slow for XP can serve IMAP to 10,000 people - concurrently). For public consumption: HTML mail bad. Postmaster jobs suck. Sound guys and system admins never get starry eyes groupies (and I've had both of those (non-groupie) jobs). We're all trying to help the Baylisa community. Can't we all just get along? Quoting richard childers / kg6hac (fscked at pacbell.net): > [More delays because of HTML & my schedule.] > > This is of potential interest to the many consultants who read this list. > > Regrettably, my first submission of this information did not seem to get > propagated ... even though one would hope that it would be in > -everyone's- interest to see that junior members are mentored, on how to > analyze business contracts. > > (And how -does- Silicon Valley manage to continue operating, when > electronic mail gets so frequently, so inexplicably, dropped, from the > very repeater administered by the group that claims the greatest > cumulative amount of expertise in matters Internet-related in the entire > Silicon Valley? Pretty sad. But, I digress.) > > > Where: > > SBA Entrepreneur Center > 455 Market St., 6th Floor > San Francisco, CA 94105 > > When: > > Wednesday, Oct. 15, 2003 > 6:00 PM - 8:30 PM > > Cost: > > $0.00 > > Details: > > The seminar will cover the basics of how to negotiate, write, or review > a simple but effective sales, supply/distribution, or service contract. > While this class will be taught by an experienced business attorney, the > content does not constitute legal advice. > > > As noted in the followup (which -did- get propagated), you should > register in order to avoid being turned away at the door (as well as to > facilitate the collection of service metrics). > > > http://www.acteva.com/booking.cfm?binid=1&bevaID=55172 > > If that fails, go to http://www.acteva.com and search for "SBA". > > > -- richard > > Richard Childers / Senior Engineer > Daemonized Networking Services > https://www.daemonized.com > (415) 759-5571 From mark at bitshift.org Wed Oct 15 11:56:34 2003 From: mark at bitshift.org (Mark C. Langston) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 11:56:34 -0700 Subject: OY: Free Course: Implementing Effective Business Contracts (resend) In-Reply-To: <20031015184621.GD16447@snew.com> References: <3F8B14F1.6010307@pacbell.net> <20031015184621.GD16447@snew.com> Message-ID: <20031015185634.GK46179@bitshift.org> On Wed, Oct 15, 2003 at 02:46:21PM -0400, Chuck Yerkes wrote: > > I use mutt to read mail, and w3m can render HTML text - in a pinch. > I will argue for HTML mail over (say) PDF or (ick ick ick) .doc. > The fact that I can't easily *bold* this word leaves me stuck > with the same expressiveness I had on a VT100 in 1982. That's That's odd. With ANSI colors and Mutt, the word "*bold*" was bolded just fine on this end. ;) Perhaps we should go back to the W3C and insist they reassert the entire "content separate from format" philosophy, and then explain to people that mailing lists carry content? -- Mark C. Langston Sr. Unix SysAdmin mark at bitshift.org mark at seti.org Systems & Network Admin SETI Institute http://bitshift.org http://www.seti.org From pmm at igtc.com Wed Oct 15 13:03:43 2003 From: pmm at igtc.com (Paul M. Moriarty) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 13:03:43 -0700 Subject: OY: Free Course: Implementing Effective Business Contracts (resend) In-Reply-To: <20031015184621.GD16447@snew.com> References: <3F8B14F1.6010307@pacbell.net> <20031015184621.GD16447@snew.com> Message-ID: <20031015200343.GA6870@igtc.igtc.com> Chuck Yerkes writes: [...] > > I also black hole HTML-only mail. For lists it's a bitch to > archive, for many readers, thanks to Microsoft mostly, it can > be dangerous and invasive (while reading the message, go and > get that link to an image or nasty program - telling the sender > when you read the message and from where). > > I use mutt to read mail, and w3m can render HTML text - in a pinch. > I will argue for HTML mail over (say) PDF or (ick ick ick) .doc. > The fact that I can't easily *bold* this word leaves me stuck > with the same expressiveness I had on a VT100 in 1982. That's > bad. Embarrasing when this is pointed out by users of proprietary > mail systems like Exchange or Notes (only 15 servers needed to > poorly do mail where a machine too slow for XP can serve IMAP > to 10,000 people - concurrently). demime is your friend. http://www.squawk.com/demime.html I've used it for mailing lists for years now with excellent results. As a bonus, it strips all other atttachments. - Paul - From chuck+baylisa at snew.com Wed Oct 15 13:17:32 2003 From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 16:17:32 -0400 Subject: Progamming HTML Message-ID: <20031015201732.GA23757@snew.com> okay, new topic. Trying to gather my own thoughts here. No commercial venture in mind, just keep running into this doing sysadmin type web front end to tools so users can do the work I've had to do for them. It's a bit of a ramble, so find a question you like and address it. I've dealt with HTML interfaces for a while. Reading and writing. I've seen stuff where a fairly complex application (complex in many many pages and lots of variables stored in a stateful back end) was stifled because adding new pages or info required rewriting lots of perl or PHP. Web page content should not be bound so tightly to the programs behind them. I want a file that describes how to layout the page, perhaps points to where to find the data (snmp, ldap, file, etc). I want a program to read that file, render the HTML and perhaps handle info coming back, but in a generalized way (eg. not a program required per page). I have written stuff with PHP and Perl CGI modules galore. Looked at Perl's Mason a bit... My thoughts run to templating. (php and smarty and the like). I've played a bit with XML for some of this, but perhaps missing something obvious. For my example, I'll use a current thing I've tossed up quickly: Monitoring machines with SNMP and presenting that data on web pages for other admins to quickly see (means that NOC people can glance at my page to see if mail is flowing, how much is queued etc and not call me). Show mailstats. The SNMP stuff was easy for me (fixed net-snmp and went). I'd like data that can be self descriptive. Some structure in a config file that says: outbound queue has these properties: SNMP variable is "MTA-MIB::mtaGroupStoredMessages.1.12" the name to present is "outbound queue" it's stored an RRD table as "outboundbq" When they user puts a mouseover this, (or when user puts data in a form) run $THIS blob of javascript (perhaps to validate that it's all numbers or whatnot). Seems easy to store and handle with XML. Now wrenches. It's snmp name is not really .12. It's whatever MTA-MIB::mtaGroupStoredMessages.1.* has the value of "outbound". (and the .12 will be .11 on a different machine with a different sendmail.cf). Perhaps store in XML the value "outbound" for the program to seek? That's doable - 1 later of abstraction. But I have to define the syntax for that abstraction and implement it in whatever language(s) I want to use it. So read it in, process it and store in in a structure (either a language structure or an XML DOM metastructure) That is one point of dealing with one piece of data. Now to PRESENTATION. THIS is where I'm struggling... I'd like to have a general, reusable program point to a file that describes the page:
Perhaps Frame FOO (of these properties) (include frame FOO file) [and we're still in easy templating] HOST=(machineA, machine1, machineI) [and read config in for for machines to find the name they present ("outbound mail") vs who they are ("tcpdec05.berk.example.com") and their SNMP info (port=1161, version=2, pass="blah", user="admin").] now: show me a table where the headers are the familiar: "Mailer", "msgs from", "bytes from", "msgsto", "bytes to" and the data is filled in from an array of COL1=snmp://$HOST/MTA-MIB::mtaGroupName.1.* (which is 1-9 in this case). COL2=snmp://$HOST/MTA-MIB::mtaGroupReceivedMessages.1.* and so forth. That "*" might also be a list (1,4,5,8,9) or ("lastName", "firstName", "location") This gets parse and emits the mailq information for each host> While I can make up and write something to parse the above, I'm a system admin and inherently lazy. More, I pride myself on not reinventing wheels. What is a way of saying the below with more common tools? %table%{ col1.property=Header+BOLD) Rows1(header=1, columns=["Mailer", "msgs from" , "bytes from" ....) col1.content=snmp://$HOST/MTA-MIB::mtaGroupName.1.[1-*] } While I'm using the presentation of "mailstats" via snmp example, it would also apply to whipping up pages to display LDAP information. Or displaying LDAP information with FORMS to allow people to change them. In the FORMS case, I'd want to know, via a data structure if the presented data is changed. new thoughts: The table can be presented as XML so I have: %table TABLE="XML://mailstats" border=1 properties="XML://cytable"% which I parse and then read the table who's property is "mailstats" (define in a config file in XML and which is rendered/filled in at this time). I'm out of electrons. Is this of interest to anyone? chuck From star at starshine.org Wed Oct 15 13:17:54 2003 From: star at starshine.org (Heather Stern) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 13:17:54 -0700 Subject: Mac files on Linux question.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031015201754.GB6077@starshine.org> On Tue, Oct 14, 2003 at 10:06:01PM -0700, Michael T. Halligan wrote: > I'm trying to help my roommate retrieve some ProTools files > from a DVD he was given after a recording session.. I can seem > to transfer everything except for the session file.. For some reason > when linux seese one of these files it turns it into a dbase3 file. > I've tried creating a new session file, ftping it to linux, it becomes > a dbase3 file (at least that's what "file filename" outputs) that > is no longer a protools file.. And when I just try ftping from the > mounted dvd to my roommate's mac, same thing, it loses it's file type. > > I've been tooling around for macutils for about an hour, and still > no luck.. Any thoughts beyond telling my roommate to go buy a dvd > drive? What is the file *actually* supposed to be, a raw data track, or what? BTW I suppose it's possible that it is a database file containing some additional notes; when I burn CDs I can fill in with extra info like "publisher" and "application" and even the name I want the CD mounted under. I preseume the same is true of burning DVDs. So the idea that ProTools "native format" for keeping all these parts in one image might closely resemble a dtabase doesn't strike me as that odd. Linux does not change the bits during FTP transmission unless you send it up FTP in "ascii" format instead of "binary". (And even if you did this would change line-end characters, not everything.) FTP doesn't know squati on its own about what "file" does. And "file" just reads some magic it's trained to look for - it can be wrong, and when people find what the distinction is, the magic file gets updated. Rather like the old game of "what animal am I thinking of" to teach new college students about neural networks... Linux does permit you to use dd on the raw device of a cd or dvd player to just draw all the bits from the beginning off the disc. I've done this myself to clone CDs. A properly dd'd away image of a CD is mountable (-o loop) as if it were still on a CD. So if any bits are being left on the DVD and screwing things up, using dd could help. -* Heather Stern * Starshine Technical Services * star at starshine.org *- From chuck+baylisa at snew.com Wed Oct 15 13:48:34 2003 From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 16:48:34 -0400 Subject: Progamming HTML In-Reply-To: <20031015201732.GA23757@snew.com> References: <20031015201732.GA23757@snew.com> Message-ID: <20031015204834.GB23757@snew.com> And please excuse my mish mash of different syntaxes used herein. It's a little perl, a little C, a little php, a little XML and this and that. It's all pseudo code, of course. Quoting Chuck Yerkes (chuck+baylisa at snew.com): > I've seen stuff where a fairly complex application (complex in many > many pages and lots of variables stored in a stateful back end) > was stifled because adding new pages or info required rewriting lots > of perl or PHP. > > Web page content should not be bound so tightly to the programs > behind them. From jxh at jxh.com Wed Oct 15 20:30:07 2003 From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 22:30:07 -0500 Subject: Progamming HTML In-Reply-To: <20031015201732.GA23757@snew.com> References: <20031015201732.GA23757@snew.com> Message-ID: <2147483647.1066257007@[10.9.18.6]> > I want a file that describes how to layout the page ... YMMV, verily, and this may not even be close, but I've lately been fooling with a thing from www.gossamer-threads.com. I'm using their DBMan SQL product, which cost me $350 (IIRC), but it's all written in Perl, against their GT::Template module, which is the good part. (And you can get it for free if you're not a commercial user, and they have a good support forum web site, etc.) I had thrown something together for the BayLISA member database a while back. It used LDAP (I had recently been learning that), and I wrote a bunch of Perl to to the "CGI" CPAN module. I've since extended that same thing to do a similar thing for my employer, and ultimately the provisioning/billing system for my business (www.imap-partners.net). It was a prototype then, and it's still a prototype. And: Ick. It needs to be MySQL underneath, and it needs to be turned inside-out, i.e. interpreter code embedded in HTML templates, not HTML code embedded in Perl. I started again to write something from scratch, and then said, "Wait a minute. Someone has _got_ to have solved this problem already. Let's see what I can find." And I found GT::Template. (Yes, I know about PHP, but I was looking for several more layers on top of that, and Perl is fine as long as you don't have to use Net::LDAP, which is very slow. PHP and Perl are to assemblers as the thing I wanted is to SAP. Well, sort of.) DBMan SQL is a bit simplistic, and I'm having to bend it in unusual ways, so I may abandon it and write directly to GT::Template after a while. But it got me a long, long way along the road for not much dough and very little original Perl code of my own. Links SQL may be a better fit for you; hard to tell. They have several other products. Most of all, though, the Perl code that this outfit produces in their GT::* modules is amazing. It was like taking a $350 Perl class just to look at what they do. And I just about write Perl for a living, these days (in between reading and deleting email for a living) and consider myself a satifsactory Perl programmer, but this stuff is from a Perl virtuoso. That was worth the price of admission, for me. YMMV, verily. From SVEvents at comcast.net Wed Oct 15 22:11:16 2003 From: SVEvents at comcast.net (SVEvents) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 22:11:16 -0700 Subject: Silicon Valley Tech events mailing list References: <3F8B14F1.6010307@pacbell.net> <20031015184621.GD16447@snew.com> <20031015200343.GA6870@igtc.igtc.com> Message-ID: <00c101c393a3$ee2ceda0$673da8c0@narus.com> Dear BayLISA members, I hope my message will not be seen as a spam - in any case, my intensions are rather altruistic. I'm running a free public mailing list to announce ALL local (Silicon Valley) technological events/meetings/seminars . Please visit it at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SVEvents/ . Upcoming events are better seen at mailing list calendar http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SVEvents/cal I hope that you'll find SVEvents group useful - indeed a lot of interesting meeting happens around a corner! I'll appreciate if you inform me about upcoming BayLISA events ahead of time - in such case I'll be able to put your group meeting in SVEvents calendar. I confident that it will bring a more attention and people to your meeting. ( As a SVEvents members you'll be able to send your announcements directly to list) Regards Stas Khirman SVEvents Founder and Moderator From michael at audities.net Thu Oct 16 10:33:11 2003 From: michael at audities.net (Michael Coxe) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 10:33:11 -0700 Subject: another vote for demime In-Reply-To: <20031015200343.GA6870@igtc.igtc.com> References: <3F8B14F1.6010307@pacbell.net> <20031015184621.GD16447@snew.com> <20031015200343.GA6870@igtc.igtc.com> Message-ID: <20031016103311.I18606@audities.net> Paul M. Moriarty wrote: >demime is your friend. http://www.squawk.com/demime.html I've used it for >mailing lists for years now with excellent results. As a bonus, it strips >all other atttachments. While catching up on Baylisa posts I was about to suggest the same solution. There's even a demine mailing list ;>. Also, Majordomo II (mj2) has demiming features built-in. - michael, yet another unemployed sys admin (yausa) From fscked at pacbell.net Thu Oct 16 22:21:44 2003 From: fscked at pacbell.net (richard childers / kg6hac) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 22:21:44 -0700 Subject: Google's Pending IPO (Of Limited Value) Message-ID: <3F8F7C68.7010908@pacbell.net> (An acquaintance from Linuxcare, whom is now at Google, forwarded a URL describing the anticipation with which Google's probable IPO is being viewed, and the conditions which make it likely. The URL is ... well, let's just say 'www.wsj.com', it's a long URL and I know HTML is viewed, by many, with suspicion, as a subversive technology, anyway.) (I read it and I think it's shortsighted. I'm not saying they are wrong but I don't agree.) (My conclusions are worth sharing, I think. They are below.) I expect that Google's viability in the long term may be limited. Consider: its basic product is a search engine; which is predicated upon a more or less massively parallel architecture, both front end (web) and back end (RDBMS). (I don't know this for a fact, but it's straightforward to infer.) Consider: applications based on massively parallel architectures, are targets for applications based on distributed architectures. Examples abound; SETI at home, and distributed.net, as well as a plethora of file swapping softwares. How long will it be before someone writes an application which, once distributed, replaces Google as the premier search engine, worldwide, redundantly cached, perhaps language-neutral, with error checking to protect against cache poisoning and encrypted channels to prevent in-transit corruption of results? I'd give it five years at the outside; two years seems more likely, at the speed things are moving and with the vast number of unemployed, but brilliant, software engineers idle. It could already be undergoing testing in a garage somewhere, right now, as I type. It wouldn't surprise me. (I hereby dub this application 'Gnugle', for purposes of future discussion. Or should that be 'Gnugle(tm)' ?) Anyhow, that's basically the period during which Google stock will be profitable to own; two to five years, on the outside. Much like stock in RDBMS companies was profitable, during a certain period, but, as RDBMS technology and products percolated through the society, the control was lost; and so was the value. Oracle will never see $60 a share again, for instance. So my advice is to keep a close eye on the distributed applications; that's your bellwether for when to sell your Google stock. Remember, you read it here first. Regards, -- richard Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services https://www.daemonized.com (415) 759-5571 From john at landahl.org Thu Oct 16 23:33:08 2003 From: john at landahl.org (John Landhal) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 23:33:08 -0700 Subject: Google's Pending IPO (Of Limited Value) In-Reply-To: <3F8F7C68.7010908@pacbell.net> References: <3F8F7C68.7010908@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 22:21:44 -0700, richard childers / kg6hac wrote: > How long will it be before someone writes an application which, once > distributed, replaces Google as the premier search engine, worldwide, > redundantly cached, perhaps language-neutral, with error checking to > protect against cache poisoning and encrypted channels to prevent > in-transit corruption of results? > > I'd give it five years at the outside; two years seems more likely, at > the speed things are moving and with the vast number of unemployed, but > brilliant, software engineers idle. It could already be undergoing > testing in a garage somewhere, right now, as I type. It wouldn't > surprise me. It's already here. It's called Grub: http://www.grub.org/ From fscked at pacbell.net Fri Oct 17 09:33:26 2003 From: fscked at pacbell.net (richard childers / kg6hac) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 09:33:26 -0700 Subject: SBA: Getting Top Position On Google Message-ID: <3F9019D6.1050508@pacbell.net> (Previous comments about Google stock viability aside; hey, it's a free class, and other search engines are likely to index the same tags and keywords.) Time: 6:00 PM to 8:30 PM Location: SBA Entrepreneur Center, 455 Market St., 6th Floor, San Francisco, CA, 94105 Directions: The SBA Entrepreneur Center is located on the corner of Market and First Streets in downtown San Francisco. The closest BART/Muni station is the Montgomery St. Station. Parking is very limited, we strongly recommend using public transportation. Note that prior registration is suggested; www.acteva.com, search for 'SBA', select the course and register; you'll receive a confirmatory email. -- richard Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services https://www.daemonized.com (415) 759-5571 From chuck+baylisa at snew.com Fri Oct 17 12:30:26 2003 From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 15:30:26 -0400 Subject: Google's Pending IPO (Of Limited Value) In-Reply-To: <3F8F7C68.7010908@pacbell.net> References: <3F8F7C68.7010908@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20031017193026.GA20291@snew.com> Quoting richard childers / kg6hac (fscked at pacbell.net): ... > The URL is ... well, > let's just say 'www.wsj.com', it's a long URL and I know HTML is viewed, > by many, with suspicion, as a subversive technology, anyway.) For email, yes. For email to lists, double yes. From extasia at extasia.org Fri Oct 17 12:58:45 2003 From: extasia at extasia.org (David Alban) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 15:58:45 -0400 Subject: [baylisa] SIG-BEER-WEST TOMORROW (Saturday) 10/18 in San Francisco Message-ID: <20031017155845.A6316@gerasimov.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 [This is TOMORROW. Sorry about the late notice!!] [Note that 21st Amendment is a ten minute walk from the Montgomery St. BART station.] SIG-beer-west http://extasia.org/sig-beer-west/ Saturday, October 18, 2003 at 6:00pm San Francisco, CA Beer. Mental stimulation. This event: Saturday, 10/18/2003, 6:00pm, at the [1]21st Amendment Brewpub, San Francisco Directions: http://www.21st-amendment.com/location/index.html [1] http://www.21st-amendment.com/21A.html Coming events (third Saturdays): Saturday, 11/15/2003, 6:00pm, location to be determined Saturday, 12/20/2003, 6:00pm, location to be determined Saturday, 01/17/2004, 6:00pm, location to be determined Saturday, 02/21/2004, 6:00pm, location to be determined San Francisco's next social event for computer sysadmins and their friends, sig-beer-west, will take place on Saturday, October 18, 2003 at [2]21st Amendment Brew Pub in San Francisco, CA. 21st Amendment brews their own (delightful) beer, and usually has a few guest brews on tap. They have a full [3]food menu and I can personally recommend the sweet potato straws side dish. Festivities will start at 6:00pm and continue until we've all left. Directions to 21st Amendment can be found on their [4]directions page. [2] http://www.21st-amendment.com/21A.html [3] http://www.21st-amendment.com/food/index.html [4] http://www.21st-amendment.com/location/index.html When you show up, you should look for some kind of home made sig-beer-west sign. We will try to make it obvious who we are. :-) Note: Please look for the sig-beer-west sign, not for a particular person. sig-beer-west may have different hosts from month to month. Everyone is welcome at this event. We mean it! Please feel free to forward this information and to invite friends, co-workers, and others who might enjoy lifting a glass with interesting folks from all over the place. (O.K., you do have to be of legal drinking age to attend.) Can't come this month? Mark your calendar for next month. sig-beer-west is always on the third Saturday of the month. Any Comments, Questions, Suggestions of Things to Do Later on That Evening, or New Venue Suggestions ... email [5]David. [5] extasia -AT- extasia -DOT- org There is a sig-beer-west mailing list. To subscribe, send an email with "subscribe" in the body to . sig-beer-west FAQ 1. Q: Your announcement says "computer sysadmins and their friends". How do I know if I'm a friend of a computer sysadmin? I don't even know what one is. A: You're a friend of a computer sysadmin if you can find the sig-beer-west sign at this month's sig-beer-west event. 2. Q: I'm not really a beer person. In fact I'm interested in hanging out, but not in drinking. Would I be welcome? A: Absolutely! The point is to hang out with fun, interesting folks. Please do join us. 3. Q: Is parking difficult in the city, like maybe I should factor this into my travel time? A: Yes. ______________________________________________________________________ sig-beer-west was started in February 2002 when a couple Washington, D.C. based systems administrators who moved to the San Francisco Bay area wanted to continue a [6]dc-sage tradition, sig-beer, which is described in dc-sage web space as: SIG-beer, as in "Special Interest Group - Beer" ala ACM, or as in "send the BEER signal to that process". The original SIG-beer gathering takes place in Washington DC, usually on the first Saturday night of the month. [6] http://www.dc-sage.org/ ______________________________________________________________________ Last modified: $Date: 2003/10/18 22:37:55 $ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE/kEkuPh0M9c/OpdARAnsVAJ0fJjKDX3byOagYLsTr3jj0Ke4cjwCglhgZ 2+fG7P1k4AjOUUaZgVReKoo= =FkXi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From chuck+baylisa at snew.com Fri Oct 17 13:43:01 2003 From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 16:43:01 -0400 Subject: inline HTML, 1L8N, 16-bit character sets, the death of ASCII predicted In-Reply-To: <3F904519.10704@pacbell.net> References: <3F8F7C68.7010908@pacbell.net> <20031017193026.GA20291@snew.com> <3F904519.10704@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20031017204301.GA12346@snew.com> Quoting richard childers / kg6hac (fscked at pacbell.net): > Depends on your client and level of sophistication, doesn't it? Yeah, I find that the ignorant use HTML in mail and the sophisticated computer folks I deal with don't. > Rich text isn't going away any time soon. In fact, most clients > automatically convert anything that parses as a URL into a clickable > entity. Multiple fonts are frequently embedded in messages. And that's an entry vector for viruses and trojans. > I personally find it valuable to use bold to highlight certain critical > elements of communications to clients, so that there is no misunderstanding. And that's about the only legit use. > The majority of the world's users increasingly agree, that this adds "the majority" The "majority" would be using Novell LANs and not be sending intercompany email were it not for us small minority. The "majority" use an OS with *massive* security holes every week, with a User interface that's inconsistent and awkward. The "majority" believe that it's ok to have 15 conflicting interaction metaphors to use their computers. The majority can't figure out how to effectively use a 3 button mouse. Let's keep the majority out of it. > value ... and with 18LN efforts solidly based on 16-bit character sets, > the days of plain old ASCII are, I suspect, numbered. Yup. Likely to another 30 years. HTML would be far more acceptable if: commercial mail tools didn't "go fetch" images or other things that helps spammers and attackers so much. I'd embrace it if I knew it was ONLY being used for text markup. As it stands, any message that comes in HTML only is shoved into a "likely spam" folder. Of the 500+ of those messages I got in september, 100% are spam. The days of HTML mail are, I suspect, numbered. From fscked at pacbell.net Fri Oct 17 13:55:44 2003 From: fscked at pacbell.net (richard childers / kg6hac) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 13:55:44 -0700 Subject: Flash: Page Description Languages Obsolete Message-ID: <3F905750.2020704@pacbell.net> This just in from the wires: Noted analyst Chuck Yerkes predicts death of printing press; says typesetting dangerous, typewriters should be outlawed. More at 11 !! (-: -- richard From mark at bitshift.org Fri Oct 17 14:05:24 2003 From: mark at bitshift.org (Mark C. Langston) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 14:05:24 -0700 Subject: Flash: Page Description Languages Obsolete In-Reply-To: <3F905750.2020704@pacbell.net> References: <3F905750.2020704@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20031017210524.GX25584@bitshift.org> On Fri, Oct 17, 2003 at 01:55:44PM -0700, richard childers / kg6hac wrote: > This just in from the wires: > > Noted analyst Chuck Yerkes predicts death of printing press; says > typesetting dangerous, typewriters should be outlawed. > Last time I checked, typewriters didn't require plug-ins, produce documents that play music, flash annoyingly, include extraneous graphics, produce type in 5" dark purple letters on a black background, transmit cholera, and impregnate the family pet. One of us is engaging in hyperbole; I'm not quite sure which is the lesser of the two, however. -- Mark C. Langston Sr. Unix SysAdmin mark at bitshift.org mark at seti.org Systems & Network Admin SETI Institute http://bitshift.org http://www.seti.org From chuck+baylisa at snew.com Fri Oct 17 14:29:27 2003 From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 17:29:27 -0400 Subject: Flash: Page Description Languages Obsolete In-Reply-To: <3F905750.2020704@pacbell.net> References: <3F905750.2020704@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20031017212927.GB22769@snew.com> I'll look forward to ignoring your future PDF and PS messages. Quoting richard childers / kg6hac (fscked at pacbell.net): > This just in from the wires: > > Noted analyst Chuck Yerkes predicts death of printing press; says > typesetting dangerous, typewriters should be outlawed. > > More at 11 !! > > > (-: > > -- richard > > From dannyman at toldme.com Fri Oct 17 15:20:48 2003 From: dannyman at toldme.com (Danny Howard) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 15:20:48 -0700 Subject: Flash: Page Description Languages Obsolete In-Reply-To: <20031017210524.GX25584@bitshift.org> References: <3F905750.2020704@pacbell.net> <20031017210524.GX25584@bitshift.org> Message-ID: <20031017222048.GI17310@pianosa.catch22.org> On Fri, Oct 17, 2003 at 02:05:24PM -0700, Mark C. Langston wrote: > Last time I checked, typewriters didn't require plug-ins, produce > documents that play music, flash annoyingly, include extraneous > graphics, produce type in 5" dark purple letters on a black background, > transmit cholera, and impregnate the family pet. I've never noticed a typewriter endlessly berate the obvious by pointlessly debating trolls. -danny From michael at halligan.org Fri Oct 17 15:50:41 2003 From: michael at halligan.org (Michael T. Halligan) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 15:50:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Thoughts on premise security. Message-ID: I'm building a secured call center for a customer of mine, and security is our top concern due to the sensitive nature of the data our callcenter reps will be dealing with. The office is less than ideal, but workable, for this type of environment. It's less than ideal because it's not a 100% sealed off from the rest of the company, there will be 2 executives, 2 programmers, and myself on a part-time basis in the office as well. Eventually as we expand the call center will be moved into an office that will have a mantrap and security guard to inspect everybody before they enter and exit, but for now there are compromises to be made. Here are some of the steps I'm taking to ensure the best security I ca, let me know if you've got any ideas. 1. None of the callcenter people can bring anything in and out of the building except lunch. Lunch is to be carried in clear plastic bags we're assigning to them, and which will be inspected every time they enter or exit the premise. 2. Nobody in the callcenter gets a PC on their desk. They get a wyes terminal connected to a citrix server, which allows them to do their work. The usb ports on the wyse terminals have been physically disconnected on the inside, as well as glue-gunned. Tamper-proof security tape has been put on all seams of the terminal. 3. The call center application, citrix server, and dumb terminals, are all physically connected to a switch that nothing else connects to. No internet access. 4. Only the ceo, coo, and myself will have access to the combination for the safe where the keys to the pcs and keys to the wiring closet/server room. a log must be filledout every time the electronic safe is opened, and every time the datacenter is entered. 5. The pcs for corporate staff all have tamper proof tape covering all the seams, locked cases, chained to desks. 6. Cameras on every doorways, recorded onto a hard drive, backed up weekly and stored for 7 years at an offsite secured storage company. 7. Address of office is not advertised anywhere, all mail goes to a post office box. 8. All corporate email goes to a relay at the datacenter, which then relays mail to the office. All outgoing mail has headers rewritten so that the ips of our corporate office are not advertised. 9. All phonecalls are recorded, indexed by case number (callcenter advocate must enter in a case # within first 60 seconds of an incoming call or call is disconnected, outgoing calls must be entered with a case number before they can be made.), and archived for 7 years. 10. For programmers to push code onto app server, they do a build, put it on a cd, give it to me, and I walk it into the datacenter and install the build. All the cds are archived and signed by the programmer & myself. 11. Janitorial staff gets background checked and bonded, as well as supervised while they work. 12. All employees are very thorougly background checked. 13. Biometrics & card scanners on every door. 14. Copier requires case #. 15. All faxes and emails sent and received are sent through one central "communications station" where the controller has to approve everything, and often have a lawyer approve everything as well. 16. Windows are sealed and shaded with film. 17. All possible eavesdropping spots we could find have been soundproofed (pretty intense.. basically all walls got hit with stehocopes while pople talked at loud volumes to make sure there was no way to listen through doors/hallways). 18. Everything except mailserver gets shut down at 6pm via a password protected reboot switch that can only be accessed by ceo, coo, director of ops, and myself. 19. Telephones cannot be used until user has both authenticated via rsa onto their terminal, and entered a password to turn their telephone on. So that's tthe basics anyways. I'm doing everything here from specs, purchasing, implementation of all corporate, call center, and web/colo work, so I'm doing my best to cover all of the bases. They basically said "be as paranoid as you can", so I'm trying that. Any other good paranoias I've missed? ------------------- Michael T. Halligan Chief Geek Halligan Infrastructure Designs. http://www.halligan.org/ 2250 Jerrold Ave #11 San Francisco, CA 94124-1012 (415) 724.7998 - Mobile From rick at linuxmafia.com Fri Oct 17 15:52:29 2003 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 15:52:29 -0700 Subject: inline HTML, 1L8N, 16-bit character sets, the death of ASCII predicted In-Reply-To: <20031017204301.GA12346@snew.com> References: <3F8F7C68.7010908@pacbell.net> <20031017193026.GA20291@snew.com> <3F904519.10704@pacbell.net> <20031017204301.GA12346@snew.com> Message-ID: <20031017225229.GD3713@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Chuck Yerkes (chuck+baylisa at snew.com): > As it stands, any message that comes in HTML only is shoved into > a "likely spam" folder. Of the 500+ of those messages I got in > september, 100% are spam. Postmaster practice on the baylisa.org machine is of course in part directed at intercepting likely spam -- and you'll notice that it's been very effective, reflecting a lot of painstaking work on the host's software configuration. Please note that by "HTML mail" I didn't mean mail merely incorporating URLs of, e.g., signup pages for SBA lectures. I'd be very surprised if those caused posts to be held for admin approval. Let's check: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/lexicon.html#moenslaw-debate1 -- Cheers, Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based, Rick Moen not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed, rick at linuxmafia.com modern-American-English-usage-improvement association. From goolsby at attglobal.net Fri Oct 17 19:32:41 2003 From: goolsby at attglobal.net (Bob Goolsby) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 19:32:41 -0700 Subject: Thoughts on premise security. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F90A649.4010308@attglobal.net> Michael T. Halligan wrote: > I'm building a secured call center for a customer of mine, and security > is our top concern due to the sensitive nature of the data our callcenter > reps will be dealing with. The office is less than ideal, but workable, > for this type of environment. It's less than ideal because it's not a > 100% sealed off from the rest of the company, there will be 2 executives, > 2 programmers, and myself on a part-time basis in the office as well. Eventually > as we expand the call center will be moved into an office that will have a mantrap > and security guard to inspect everybody before they enter and exit, but for now > there are compromises to be made. > ---- Snip ---- > > > ------------------- > Michael T. Halligan > Chief Geek > Halligan Infrastructure Designs. > http://www.halligan.org/ > 2250 Jerrold Ave #11 > San Francisco, CA 94124-1012 > (415) 724.7998 - Mobile > > Also think about fire suppression systems, HVAC, and the water systems coming into the building. (Think 50 grams of LSD in the water supply. A smoke bomb or a chlorine generator parked next to the air intakes.) Also, are you setting up shop in a district where the number of bodies coming into work each day will be noticed? I once worked at a data-center situated in the middle of an Industrial park. It took about three weeks before the Locals figured out that something was odd; too many people routinely showing up at 0000, 0800, 1600. They didn't know _what_ we did, but they knew it wasn't the run of the mill Shipping and Expediting firm like the signs on the building said. B From fscked at pacbell.net Wed Oct 15 08:54:11 2003 From: fscked at pacbell.net (richard childers / kg6hac) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 08:54:11 -0700 Subject: Free Course: Implementing Effective Business Contracts (resend) In-Reply-To: <20031014193300.GX3713@linuxmafia.com> References: <3F8B14F1.6010307@pacbell.net> <20031014193300.GX3713@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <3F8D6DA3.4000009@pacbell.net> [More delays caused by posting content which will be (and was) intercepted to await an ooportunity for me to review it. And this is the first opportunity I've had to do so. -- postmaster@] Rick, Now that you've explained it to me, it's clear to me that this text - [More delays because of HTML & my schedule.] ... is probably from someone, explaining to you - or perhaps from you, explaining to someone else - why the message's propagation was delayed - it was delayed because of the inline HTML, and their schedule (whatever that means). If you folks were half as organized as you'd like to appear, you'd have written a filter that detected inline HTML, rejected the posting, and attached a friendly note explaining why, instead of handling exceptions manually and justifying them with allegory, metaphor, and rhetoric. Of course, you'd probably end up rejecting the majority of the postings, and there would be calls to drop this requirement. I mean, I understand the bias towards text as well as anyone, but this is the 21st century now, rich text is here to stay. And this is the San Francisco Bay Area, not Pakistan, or Uganda. Anyhow, it seems to me that insofar as you have not allowed my protest regarding being misquoted to propagate, you are allowing a false state of affairs to persist, presumably to maintain the impression that you are above making mistakes; at my expense, incidentally. Don't expect me to regard this as acceptable behavior. It's shoddy leadership, at best. -- richard Rick Moen wrote: >Quoting richard childers / kg6hac (fscked at pacbell.net): > > > >>[More delays because of HTML & my schedule.] >> >>This is of potential interest to the many consultants who read this list. >> >>Regrettably, my first submission of this information did not seem to get >>propagated ... even though one would hope that it would be in >>-everyone's- interest to see that junior members are mentored, on how to >>analyze business contracts. >> >> > >I believe you've basically just said "Doctor, doctor, it _hurts_ when I >do this." I trust you know the punchline. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at linuxmafia.com Sat Oct 18 11:59:37 2003 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 11:59:37 -0700 Subject: Free Course: Implementing Effective Business Contracts (resend) In-Reply-To: <3F917ACC.3060509@pacbell.net> References: <20031018130611.C442-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> <3F917ACC.3060509@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20031018185937.GF21430@linuxmafia.com> Quoting richard childers / kg6hac (fscked at pacbell.net): > Say, refusing postings that have HTML, but including postings that have, > well, HTML. Looking through the specific majordomo-1.94 $global_taboo_headers and sendmail rulesets (for the first time; I'm not one of the mailadmins), I don't see any that appear to be in any way Childers-specific. Sorry to disappoint. Persecution might still be possible, for a suitable fee. ;-> -- Cheers, Accordions don't play Lady of Spain; Rick Moen _people_ play Lady of Spain. rick at linuxmafia.com From david at catwhisker.org Sat Oct 18 17:18:24 2003 From: david at catwhisker.org (David Wolfskill) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 17:18:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: another vote for demime In-Reply-To: <20031016103311.I18606@audities.net> Message-ID: <200310190018.h9J0IO5B077457@bunrab.catwhisker.org> >Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 10:33:11 -0700 >From: Michael Coxe >To: baylisa at baylisa.org >Subject: another vote for demime >While catching up on Baylisa posts I was about to suggest the same >solution. There's even a demine mailing list ;>. Also, Majordomo II >(mj2) has demiming features built-in. > - michael, yet another unemployed sys admin (yausa) While I appreciate the thought, you may reasonably infer from the delta between the quoted Date: header and the one on this message roughly how backlogged I've gotten in email. (Consider, too, that I've been plowing ("ploughing," for any folk from .uk) through email most of the day -- and that I arise well before dawn. Now, if someone chooses to "vote" by volunteering to help with the implementation, I would welcome the assistance. For that matter, I wouldn't mind if someone else volunteered to either take over as postmaster@ or (say) merely handled mailing list management. Peace, david (current hat: postmaster at baylisa.org) -- David H. Wolfskill david at catwhisker.org If you want true virus-protection for your PC, install a non-Microsoft OS on it. Plausible candidates include FreeBSD, Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, and Solaris (in alphabetical order). From fscked at pacbell.net Fri Oct 17 12:38:01 2003 From: fscked at pacbell.net (richard childers / kg6hac) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 12:38:01 -0700 Subject: inline HTML, 1L8N, 16-bit character sets, the death of ASCII predicted In-Reply-To: <20031017193026.GA20291@snew.com> References: <3F8F7C68.7010908@pacbell.net> <20031017193026.GA20291@snew.com> Message-ID: <3F904519.10704@pacbell.net> [postmaster@ is getting closer to "caught up"....] Depends on your client and level of sophistication, doesn't it? Rich text isn't going away any time soon. In fact, most clients automatically convert anything that parses as a URL into a clickable entity. Multiple fonts are frequently embedded in messages. I personally find it valuable to use bold to highlight certain critical elements of communications to clients, so that there is no misunderstanding. The majority of the world's users increasingly agree, that this adds value ... and with 18LN efforts solidly based on 16-bit character sets, the days of plain old ASCII are, I suspect, numbered. -- richard Chuck Yerkes wrote: >Quoting richard childers / kg6hac (fscked at pacbell.net): >... > > >>The URL is ... well, >>let's just say 'www.wsj.com', it's a long URL and I know HTML is viewed, >>by many, with suspicion, as a subversive technology, anyway.) >> >> > >For email, yes. For email to lists, double yes. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fscked at pacbell.net Fri Oct 17 13:56:50 2003 From: fscked at pacbell.net (richard childers / kg6hac) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 13:56:50 -0700 Subject: inline HTML, 1L8N, 16-bit character sets, the death of ASCII predicted In-Reply-To: <20031017204301.GA12346@snew.com> References: <3F8F7C68.7010908@pacbell.net> <20031017193026.GA20291@snew.com> <3F904519.10704@pacbell.net> <20031017204301.GA12346@snew.com> Message-ID: <3F905792.8000801@pacbell.net> Now, if you were using SCO, I could understand your frustration ... I'm experiencing it, as I speak ... (-; -- richard Chuck Yerkes wrote: >Quoting richard childers / kg6hac (fscked at pacbell.net): > > >>Depends on your client and level of sophistication, doesn't it? >> >> > >Yeah, I find that the ignorant use HTML in mail and the sophisticated >computer folks I deal with don't. > > > >>Rich text isn't going away any time soon. In fact, most clients >>automatically convert anything that parses as a URL into a clickable >>entity. Multiple fonts are frequently embedded in messages. >> >> > >And that's an entry vector for viruses and trojans. > > > >>I personally find it valuable to use bold to highlight certain critical >>elements of communications to clients, so that there is no misunderstanding. >> >> >And that's about the only legit use. > > > >>The majority of the world's users increasingly agree, that this adds >> >> > >"the majority" > >The "majority" would be using Novell LANs and not be sending intercompany >email were it not for us small minority. The "majority" use an OS >with *massive* security holes every week, with a User interface that's >inconsistent and awkward. The "majority" believe that it's ok to have >15 conflicting interaction metaphors to use their computers. The majority >can't figure out how to effectively use a 3 button mouse. > >Let's keep the majority out of it. > > > >>value ... and with 18LN efforts solidly based on 16-bit character sets, >>the days of plain old ASCII are, I suspect, numbered. >> >> > >Yup. Likely to another 30 years. > >HTML would be far more acceptable if: > commercial mail tools didn't "go fetch" images or other things > that helps spammers and attackers so much. > >I'd embrace it if I knew it was ONLY being used for text markup. > >As it stands, any message that comes in HTML only is shoved into >a "likely spam" folder. Of the 500+ of those messages I got in >september, 100% are spam. > >The days of HTML mail are, I suspect, numbered. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com Fri Oct 17 16:52:55 2003 From: alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com (Alvin Oga) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 16:52:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Thoughts on premise security. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Oct 2003, Michael T. Halligan wrote: > I'm building a secured call center for a customer of mine, and security > is our top concern due to the sensitive nature of the data our callcenter > reps will be dealing with. The office is less than ideal, but workable, > for this type of environment. It's less than ideal because it's not a > 100% sealed off from the rest of the company, there will be 2 executives, > 2 programmers, and myself on a part-time basis in the office as well. Eventually > as we expand the call center will be moved into an office that will have a mantrap > and security guard to inspect everybody before they enter and exit, but for now > there are compromises to be made. > > Here are some of the steps I'm taking to ensure the best security I ca, > let me know if you've got any ideas. sounds like fun > 1. None of the callcenter people can bring anything in and out of the building > except lunch. Lunch is to be carried in clear plastic bags we're assigning > to them, and which will be inspected every time they enter or exit the premise. provide free lunch ... $5/person for lunch is minimal costs compared to the risk of stuff/data leaving the office - free vending machines for water, drinks, ... > 2. Nobody in the callcenter gets a PC on their desk. They get a wyes terminal > connected to a citrix server, which allows them to do their work. The usb ports > on the wyse terminals have been physically disconnected on the inside, as well > as glue-gunned. Tamper-proof security tape has been put on all seams of the > terminal. good .. :-) but no such thing as tamper-proof ... if the seal is broken ... its too late that they could have connected a usb device to the reconnected wires ( takes some skill to get that far though ) > 3. The call center application, citrix server, and dumb terminals, are all physically > connected to a switch that nothing else connects to. No internet access. good ... > 4. Only the ceo, coo, and myself will have access to the combination for the safe > where the keys to the pcs and keys to the wiring closet/server room. a log must > be filledout every time the electronic safe is opened, and every time the datacenter > is entered. make it an automated log... people willalways forget to log their use of the key automated log, they have to enter a code or swipe a card key to get access to the room w/ the safe etc where the key is kept $ 100 card swipe box .. rs232 interface > 5. The pcs for corporate staff all have tamper proof tape covering all the seams, locked > cases, chained to desks. and no cdrw drive no floppy no active firewire connections no active usb connections no active sound/microphone ports ( you'd be surprised how many secure servers had these devices ) "no crt to take picures of with your cell phone or digital camera" :-) > 6. Cameras on every doorways, recorded onto a hard drive, backed up weekly and stored for > 7 years at an offsite secured storage company. backup daily .. :-) or hourly ... if someone is gonna tamper with the system security, you do NOT want to allow them a week to figure out how to erase the evidence before that info is sent off somewhere else the recording device ( with camera connection ) has no login consoles ... ( not even local login .. you have to reboot it to get a console ?? ) which sets off all kinds of alarms ?? > 7. Address of office is not advertised anywhere, all mail goes to a post office box. good same for business cards ?? and reverse phone number lookups and what happens if they disclose the physical address of where they work?? - does the spouses also get to sign the NDA and other "keep it secret documents" ? or lose the job ... and financial penalties ( motivation ) > 8. All corporate email goes to a relay at the datacenter, which then relays mail to > the office. All outgoing mail has headers rewritten so that the ips of our corporate > office are not advertised. :-) > 9. All phonecalls are recorded, indexed by case number (callcenter advocate must enter > in a case # within first 60 seconds of an incoming call or call is disconnected, outgoing > calls must be entered with a case number before they can be made.), and archived for 7 years. all this is automated by the pbx .. not manually logged ... :-) how do you disable / disallow cell phones and personal calls inside the secure area ?? - cell phones have camera's now days - how do you detect that a cell phone has gotten in and is turned on > 10. For programmers to push code onto app server, they do a build, put it on a cd, give it > to me, and I walk it into the datacenter and install the build. All the cds are archived > and signed by the programmer & myself. and you test it on a duplicate identical clone server, to confirm those changes works and wont break anything ?? - all testing is automated to confirm its functionality as it was before its upgrade > 11. Janitorial staff gets background checked and bonded, as well as supervised while they > work. check on the validity and get listed as a co-insured on the bonds and insurance policy - if you're not on the policy, you can't collect on it > 12. All employees are very thorougly background checked. using your own resouce and info .. not phone and address they gave you > 13. Biometrics & card scanners on every door. fun stuff > 14. Copier requires case #. copies w/out connectivity or if it does have connectivity, a copy of each "start copying" button also forces a copy to be sent to the "camera servillance" server have a camera pointing at the copier .. :-) > 15. All faxes and emails sent and received are sent through one central "communications station" > where the controller has to approve everything, and often have a lawyer approve everything > as well. :-) > 16. Windows are sealed and shaded with film. with anti-emi deterants looking thru glass > 17. All possible eavesdropping spots we could find have been soundproofed (pretty intense.. basically > all walls got hit with stehocopes while pople talked at loud volumes to make sure there was no way > to listen through doors/hallways). and the air conditioning ducts.. and electical outlets and light switches and phone wires and the steel beams and pipes that conduct sound ... :-) and all the wires (any metal) in and above the ceiling and floors > 18. Everything except mailserver gets shut down at 6pm via a password protected reboot switch that > can only be accessed by ceo, coo, director of ops, and myself. and a motion detector, light sensor and sound sensor and emi sensor and weight sensors and infared laser beams etc gets turned on > 19. Telephones cannot be used until user has both authenticated via rsa onto their terminal, and > entered a password to turn their telephone on. :-) > So that's tthe basics anyways. I'm doing everything here from specs, purchasing, implementation of all > corporate, call center, and web/colo work, so I'm doing my best to cover all of the bases. They > basically said "be as paranoid as you can", so I'm trying that. Any other good paranoias I've missed? where is the backups kept???? - it should be equally secure or even more secure than the data/call center do you have at lest 3 servers for each function, - what happens when the one server dies for whatever reason ( you need a hot swap replacement within seconds ) - what happens when the incoming t1 dies ?? - what happens when the switch is hacked/dies - what happens when the camera system dies - what happens when building loses power - what happens when the building loses its air conditioning - what happens when the rsa authentication server dies - what happens when the pbx is hacked - what happens when the fire dept or police dept says "evacuate the bldg now" !!! - what happens when the copper leaves the secure office and goes to the central building incoming telephone connection ( just like on tv .. easy enough to do w/ the right equipment ) so many ways to be paranoid .. c ya alvin From jimd at starshine.org Sat Oct 18 19:15:06 2003 From: jimd at starshine.org (jimd at starshine.org) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 02:15:06 +0000 Subject: Thoughts on premise security. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031019021506.GB24279@mercury.starshine.org> On Fri, Oct 17, 2003 at 03:50:41PM -0700, Michael T. Halligan wrote: > I'm building a secured call center for a customer of mine, and > security is our top concern due to the sensitive nature of the data > our callcenter reps will be dealing with. The office is less than > ideal, but workable, for this type of environment. It's less than > ideal because it's not a 100% sealed off from the rest of the company, > there will be 2 executives, 2 programmers, and myself on a part-time > basis in the office as well. Eventually as we expand the call center > will be moved into an office that will have a mantrap and security > guard to inspect everybody before they enter and exit, but for now > there are compromises to be made. > Here are some of the steps I'm taking to ensure the best security I ca, > let me know if you've got any ideas. > 1. None of the callcenter people can bring anything in and out of the > building except lunch. Lunch is to be carried in clear plastic bags > we're assigning to them, and which will be inspected every time they > enter or exit the premise. Unless you have them stripped searched each day in and out ... this seems like it's only a cosmetic measure. > 2. Nobody in the callcenter gets a PC on their desk. They get a > wyes terminal connected to a citrix server, which allows them to do > their work. The usb ports on the wyse terminals have been physically > disconnected on the inside, as well as glue-gunned. Tamper-proof > security tape has been put on all seams of the terminal. "Tamper-proof" tape isn't. It may be tamper *evident* but how tamper "proof" can it be if it's just tape. That may seem like a nit-pick but let's be more precise in this terminology here. Assuming that this is really tamper *evident* tape (and not made of some supernaturally tough material that couldn't be cut open with a razor, hacksaw or pocket butane torch) ... ... how are you checking for tampering? Is a supervisor checking the tape every day prior to signing the employee's time card (and allowing them out of the building)? > 3. The call center application, citrix server, and dumb terminals, > are all physically connected to a switch that nothing else connects > to. No internet access. > 4. Only the ceo, coo, and myself will have access to the combination for > the safe where the keys to the pcs and keys to the wiring closet/server > room. a log must be filledout every time the electronic safe is opened, > and every time the datacenter is entered. Is there a security guard stationed to enforce (and notarize?) this logging? What measures are taken for prevents tampering to the logs? > 5. The pcs for corporate staff all have tamper proof tape covering > all the seams, locked cases, chained to desks. see earlier distinction on "tamper proof" vs. "tamper evident" (or "tamper apparent"). > 6. Cameras on every doorways, recorded onto a hard drive, backed up > weekly and stored for 7 years at an offsite secured storage company. Only one hard drive? How are the cameras physically secured and why aren't their signals/recording duplicated to two independent systems? Do the cameras have a local (flash) cache? What procedures are in place to handle the apparent failure of a camera? Have you tested those by unplugging a camera and timing how long it takes for a warm body to investigate? Are these tests specified in your routine security auditing procedures? > 7. Address of office is not advertised anywhere, all mail goes to a > post office box. > 8. All corporate email goes to a relay at the datacenter, which then > relays mail to the office. All outgoing mail has headers rewritten so > that the ips of our corporate office are not advertised. How are the contents of each outgoing bit of mail vetted? The use of Citrix suggests an MS Windows based application, how are incoming bits of e-mail sanitized? > 9. All phonecalls are recorded, indexed by case number (callcenter > advocate must enter in a case # within first 60 seconds of an incoming > call or call is disconnected, outgoing calls must be entered with a > case number before they can be made.), and archived for 7 years. > 10. For programmers to push code onto app server, they do a build, > put it on a cd, give it to me, and I walk it into the datacenter and > install the build. All the cds are archived and signed by the programmer > & myself. Is an independent team performing a code audit of a copy of these prior to installation/updates? > 11. Janitorial staff gets background checked and bonded, as well as > supervised while they work. > 12. All employees are very thorougly background checked. > 13. Biometrics & card scanners on every door. If there are doors without live guards, how are you checking the clear plastic lunch backs (etc)? Biometric and card scanners tell you (at best) who went in (and out)? Not what they carried with them nor who accompanied them. > 14. Copier requires case #. How do you ensure that all copies made are accounted for? (Filed, mailed with approval, or shredded)? What's the point of logging the copying event if there's not control over the resulting copies? > 15. All faxes and emails sent and received are sent through one central > "communications station" where the controller has to approve everything, > and often have a lawyer approve everything as well. > 16. Windows are sealed and shaded with film. > 17. All possible eavesdropping spots we could find have been > soundproofed (pretty intense.. basically all walls got hit with > stehocopes while pople talked at loud volumes to make sure there was > no way to listen through doors/hallways). TEMPEST defenses? EM emissions sweeps? (I know I'm starting to sound silly here --- or spooky; but without some idea of your threat model what else can I say?) > 18. Everything except mailserver gets shut down at 6pm via a password > protected reboot switch that can only be accessed by ceo, coo, director > of ops, and myself. > 19. Telephones cannot be used until user has both authenticated via rsa > onto their terminal, and entered a password to turn their telephone on. So, what prevents them from leaking sensitive information after they've authenticated to the phone system? Is the list of numbers restricted or correlated to the incident/case numbers? To get even spookier what would prevent our hypothetical employee/spy from calling the restricted number at a time when an associate has tapped into that line and then transmitting sensitive data view some sort of low bandwith acoustic sub carrier (so it sounded a bit like static)? Of course the real key is: what prevents the turncoat employee from simply memorizing key pieces of data and leaking that? Are there any canaries (honey tokens: false accounts, cases, etc in the system that are there purely to detect leaks)? > So that's tthe basics anyways. I'm doing everything here from specs, > purchasing, implementation of all corporate, call center, and web/colo > work, so I'm doing my best to cover all of the bases. They basically > said "be as paranoid as you can", so I'm trying that. Any other good > paranoias I've missed? I've pointed out a few that I think are obvious. Given some incentive I'm sure I could think of a few more. Given some background I might even keep them reasonable. Shooting in the dark like this just puts me in the Austin Powers plot brainstorming frame of mind. If you have the budget for it; hire a couple of professionals to go over the whole plan *again* (independently of one another). -- Jim Dennis From holland at guidancetech.com Fri Oct 17 21:54:17 2003 From: holland at guidancetech.com (Rich Holland) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 00:54:17 -0400 Subject: Thoughts on premise security. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <01a201c39533$e3812bf0$6400a8c0@hackintosh> Michael T. Halligan wrote: > > I'm building a secured call center for a customer of mine, > and security is our top concern due to the sensitive nature > of the data our callcenter reps will be dealing with. The > [...various occurances of "only the ceo, coo, and myself"....] > > of the bases. They basically said "be as paranoid as you > can", so I'm trying that. Any other good paranoias I've missed? Don't give the keys to the kingdom to a contractor. :) You mentioned the janitors are bonded & background checked. Have you also been? Cheers! Rich From fscked at pacbell.net Sat Oct 18 08:28:09 2003 From: fscked at pacbell.net (richard childers / kg6hac) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 08:28:09 -0700 Subject: On Securing Call Centers Message-ID: <3F915C09.4020204@pacbell.net> Reading this description of the secret call center, I cannot help but wonder: - What protections are being taken against telephone taps? - Have you secured your telephone switch and do you trust your provider? [1] - Have you secured the telecommunications cables leaving the building? - Are you using fiber, where possible, instead of copper? - How will you stop cleaning staff from installing listening devices? - Have you tested the room and building for EMF transparency (Van Eck)? - What's roof access like? - What's beneath the building, in terms of navigable tunnels? - Does your building share any walls with any other buildings? And last but not least: - What's to stop someone from kidnapping an employee (or cleaning person)? You may want to consider a shuttle bus for your employees, too. And, now that I think of it, a determined call center employee could still bring in a digital pocket tape recorder, or, even worse, a cell phone ... strip searches may be indicated ... [1] "In recent years, the FBI and other government agencies have investigated Amdocs more than once. The firm has repeatedly and adamantly denied any security breaches or wrongdoing. But sources tell Fox News that in 1999, the super secret national security agency, headquartered in northern Maryland, issued what's called a Top Secret sensitive compartmentalized information report, TS/SCI, warning that records of calls in the United States were getting into foreign hands ..." (See complete story at http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/Israeli-Spying-Part-2.htm) Food for thought (and fodder for others' cannons, I suppose), -- richard Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services https://www.daemonized.com (415) 759-5571 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gwen at reptiles.org Sat Oct 18 10:06:36 2003 From: gwen at reptiles.org (Gwendolynn ferch Elydyr) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 13:06:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Free Course: Implementing Effective Business Contracts (resend) In-Reply-To: <3F8D6DA3.4000009@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20031018130611.C442-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> On Wed, 15 Oct 2003, richard childers / kg6hac wrote: > Don't expect me to regard this as acceptable behavior. It's shoddy > leadership, at best. If you don't like it, the unsubscribe methods are straightforward. cheers! ========================================================================== "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now." From fscked at pacbell.net Sat Oct 18 10:14:00 2003 From: fscked at pacbell.net (richard childers / kg6hac) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 10:14:00 -0700 Subject: Thoughts on premise security (redux) Message-ID: <3F9174D8.5060505@pacbell.net> (My first reply to this, sent over 90 minutes ago, was -not- propagated by the BayLISA mail server ... so I'm Cc:ing you directly, Michael. Apparently, -someone- found the potential for someone, somewhere, taking offense, was greater than your, and others', need for good information. Nice, eh?) Reading this description of the secret call center, I cannot help but wonder: - What protections are being taken against telephone taps? - Have you secured your telephone switch and do you trust your provider? [1] - Have you secured the telecommunications cables leaving the building? - Are you using fiber, where possible, instead of copper? - How will you stop cleaning staff from installing listening devices? - Have you tested the room and building for EMF transparency (Van Eck)? - What's roof access like? - What's beneath the building, in terms of navigable tunnels? - Does your building share any walls with any other buildings? And last but not least: - What's to stop someone from kidnapping an employee (or cleaning person)? You may want to consider a shuttle bus for your employees, too. And, now that I think of it, a determined call center employee could still bring in a digital pocket tape recorder, or, even worse, a cell phone ... strip searches may be indicated ... or (a) metal detector(s), built into the door frame(s) of your mantrap. [1] "The espionage operation reportedly includes employees of two companies that perform official wiretaps for the U. S. local, state and federal law enforcement: Comverse Infosys and Amdocs." (Complete story at http://www.rense.com/general19/spy.htm) Food for thought. -- richard Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services https://www.daemonized.com (415) 759-5571 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fscked at pacbell.net Sat Oct 18 10:39:24 2003 From: fscked at pacbell.net (richard childers / kg6hac) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 10:39:24 -0700 Subject: Free Course: Implementing Effective Business Contracts (resend) In-Reply-To: <20031018130611.C442-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> References: <20031018130611.C442-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> Message-ID: <3F917ACC.3060509@pacbell.net> "If you don't like it, the unsubscribe methods are straightforward." The fact is that BayLISA exists for the entire population of Bay Area systems administrators. That is its mandate. Your comments do not challenge my statement that this sort of leadership is unsatisfactory ... and that is because I am right. It -is- shoddy leadership. However, because it is a public, non-profit corporation, and I have a website of my own, my alternatives are quite broad. For instance, I could subscribe to the lists from another address, and use this to demonstrate how messages are selectively propagated, and submit the contents of the messages to statistical analysis by interested third parties, so that they could determine, for themselves, if a small party of, say, sycophants, might have seized control of the organization and are using it for their own benefit. ... This may have already happened, by the way. That's just one alternative. Another is to collect this information for a few years until I have such a vast accumulation of contradictory behavior from the group, as a whole, that it's just plain embarrassing. Say, refusing postings that have HTML, but including postings that have, well, HTML. But I'm probably not the only one collecting BayLISA postings; see below for details. The fact is that what appears to be premeditated censorship of the mailing lists seems to have started about the time I posted links to my entertaining little article about TRBSCO, or, as many know, now, Oracle Corporation. While it may be tangential to your comments, it's worth considering that, a few days after the OracleWorld bomb threats cleared out Moscone Center, I was contacted by the office of Senator Boxer ... replying to the letter I had sent their office some two months before, and inviting me to provide them with contact information so that they could open a file. (I replied, asking if this had anything to do with the OracleWorld bomb threats, and if I would have to wait another eight weeks for my reply. That was two weeks ago. No reply yet. Your tax dollars, hard at work ...) If one takes into account the fact that my controversial article about Oracle's approach to human resources, Superior Court case management, criminal conspiracy, and fraud preceded the unprecedented threat to bomb OracleWorld, by a mere eight weeks, then it is child's play to conclude that I am a suspect, in the eyes of some. I have not been arrested, or even questioned ... and yet, it's likely that my Internet connection is tapped, and, indeed, a recent DSL service out[r]age coincided with my tongue-in-cheek comments to another, via email, that it was reassuring that taps could still be detected by the network latency they inserted into the telecommunications circuit. (-: So your pompous comments may well be recorded for future generations to see in the archives of the United States Government; ask yourself how your words will stand up ten years from now. One other observation. Small packs of bullies don't intimidate me, because I know that, alone and by themselves, they are ineffective, helpless, and prone to collecting in larger groups ... because that's the only way they can get any respect, by posturing and strutting in front of each other, egging each other on. I'm not saying that you are a small pack of sycophantic bullies, of course ... that would be defamation. I'm just drawing parallels between similar behaviors. Food for thought. Maybe you should stick to raising cats. Regards, -- richard Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services https://www.daemonized.com (415) 759-5571 Gwendolynn ferch Elydyr wrote: >On Wed, 15 Oct 2003, richard childers / kg6hac wrote: > > >>Don't expect me to regard this as acceptable behavior. It's shoddy >>leadership, at best. >> >> > >If you don't like it, the unsubscribe methods are straightforward. > >cheers! >========================================================================== >"A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound >desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to >avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now." > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chuck+baylisa at snew.com Sun Oct 19 10:17:23 2003 From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 13:17:23 -0400 Subject: On Securing Call Centers In-Reply-To: <3F915C09.4020204@pacbell.net> References: <3F915C09.4020204@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20031019171723.GA16660@snew.com> This is being hashed over the SAGE list too. Treating people like they are theives is a fine way to motivate them to become theives. Quoting richard childers / kg6hac (fscked at pacbell.net): > Reading this description of the secret call center, I cannot help but > wonder: > > - What protections are being taken against telephone taps? Switches aren't too hard to access. If the voice line would compromise your security, then you shouldn't be using phones. All customers could be issued scrambler phones or you could do a cost:benefit analysis and let it go. > - Have you secured your telephone switch and do you trust your > provider? [1] YOu can *never* *trust* your provider. See above. > - Have you secured the telecommunications cables leaving the building? If only from backhoes. (remember when, I think it was Netscape in 95 or perhaps MAE-WEST when down? "A rat" they said (quickly pulling their prepared excuse-rat from the freezer)). > - Are you using fiber, where possible, instead of copper? Fiber is far more trivial to bump into than it was 8 years ago. > - How will you stop cleaning staff from installing listening devices? They will have "background checks" which I find, at best, impractical in an industry with 200%+ turnover rates. > - What's to stop someone from kidnapping an employee (or cleaning person)? That said, for all the C/R devices, SecureIDs and smart cards you issue, the best and easiest way in is not to kidnap people (great for movies, not so likely in Real Life) - the easiest way to get information is to simply pay them. Given how motivated *I'd* be to continue to work in this sort of env, simply offering them a job where they aren't living in Ashcroft's Holiday Camp might be enough. When I call in to places, sometimes I don't have my case number on hand. As soon as I found out we were cut off automatically in 60 seconds as a tool to keep employees from getting calls, I'm not really motivated to continue doing business with that company. You're biggest assets and help towards security is working WITH employees, not imprisoning them. > And, now that I think of it, a determined call center employee could > still bring in a digital pocket tape recorder, or, even worse, a cell > phone ... strip searches may be indicated ... Really: employees should live on premises for 12 month shifts and either be killed or mind-wiped at the end to make them useless and incoherent. Or perhaps sent to holiday islands for a 3 month respite (isolated from the World) before their next shift. Family members should be implanted with explosives as further motivation. Why am I recalling that novel "The Firm" by a nadir of american literature, J Grisham? Treat employees like trusted human beings and they will help you in your sec urity. Treat them as adversaries and they will not only *not* aid you, but they will seek ways around the machiavellian mazes you've set up. And as a SAGE writer said: I hear Dan Geer's available :) From chuck+baylisa at snew.com Sun Oct 19 10:39:03 2003 From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 13:39:03 -0400 Subject: SCO Message-ID: <20031019173903.GB16660@snew.com> Quoting richard childers / kg6hac (fscked at pacbell.net): > Now, if you were using SCO, I could understand your frustration ... I'm > experiencing it, as I speak ... Replace it or walk away. it's the best answer. Over a decade ago, I wokred for a VAR who sold CAD systems - on Sun, and SCO and SGI. SCO was rare, but I got saddled with the customers who had it. License issues with TCP/IP software. Installed on 15 machines and - doh!- 1 license was used on two machines. Which two? It didn't bother to say - it just shut down. Put a call in and was told I'd get a call back within a week. Impressive. After taking the users down for most of an afternoon trying combinations of machines to get this error - elimination games - and generally wasting a day and pissing off me and the customers, the customer started replacing older machines with Suns. Then add things like bugs - ./rhosts didn't work with 8 letter accounts, a NIS implementation that set me off in waves of giggles (rcp of passwd (requiring a /.rhosts) and a shell script merge) and generally pathetic code quality, support and pricing - the clients and my company were disgusted with SCO. $15k for Sun vs. $8k for PC+SCO was cheaper to run and manage. When I got a all a year later from SCO offering us a deal to move our customers to the new version of SCO Unix, I let them know that we'd rather pay twice the price for SPARCs and SunOS and save money in the end than ever deal with SCO again. My friend at MS offered that since MS owned a huge stake in SCO, it was clearly their effort to make even DOS and Windows 3.0 seem solid and intuitive and robust compared to Unix. This is no small reason why a can't help but fall into a combinartion of giggless and fury when SCO claims that *anyone* stole code from them. SMP, file systems - pretty much anything SCO touched or tried to implement, they did poorly and sloppily. Even while BSDi is in its death throws with a company that has no clue how to sell or market it, it runs most SCO binaries. It's also built by professionals who try to get money by making better product, not through litigation. I've not seen ANYTHING that I'd run on a SCO system by choice. Note to Daryl: you didn't lose to Linux because they took your IP, you lose because the code you issue, the support you offer and the way you do business is repellant - to geeks, to businesses. From michael at halligan.org Sun Oct 19 10:44:05 2003 From: michael at halligan.org (Michael T. Halligan) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 10:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: On Securing Call Centers In-Reply-To: <20031019171723.GA16660@snew.com> Message-ID: > This is being hashed over the SAGE list too. Man, I understand I was asking a loaded question, but didn't expect NEARLY this much of a response, both of these lists are usually rather mellow, I was hoping to find another 10-15 items to put on my already 45-item list of "ideal actions in order to ensure adequate security" document I'm writing up for my customer... Unfortunately, I didn't explain the situation enough. Everybody assumed that when I said call-center, I meant "undereducated telemarketers in the midwest".. oddly enough, our application is to help victims of Identity theft, and our call-center employees are all very experienced bank fraud specialists. Our two main "enemies" are information brokers, and script kiddies, with our two biggest fear being bribery from information brokers, and database compromise. > Treating people like they are theives is a fine way to motivate > them to become theives. > > > > - What protections are being taken against telephone taps? > Switches aren't too hard to access. If the voice line would > compromise your security, then you shouldn't be using phones. > All customers could be issued scrambler phones or you could do > a cost:benefit analysis and let it go. Really all we can do to prevent a telephone tap is get a secured MPO from the telco, which is about $10-$15k, which only provides a slightly better level of security than using a shared building wiring closet.. and maybe doing voip to the telco with an encrypted link, but so far none of the telcos I've talked to can do that reasonably. > > - How will you stop cleaning staff from installing listening devices? > They will have "background checks" which I find, at best, impractical > in an industry with 200%+ turnover rates. Cleaning staff is personally my biggest fear. So far we've had a background check done on our parent company's long-time cleaning ladies (2 of them) and we're paying them 3x the rate that our parent company was paying them, as well as have had them bonded. Unfortunately, we still understand how bribable they are. > That said, for all the C/R devices, SecureIDs and smart cards > you issue, the best and easiest way in is not to kidnap people > (great for movies, not so likely in Real Life) - the easiest > way to get information is to simply pay them. The former goes into the "improbable but possible risk" category, while the latter goes into the "probable" risk category.. This makes us do background checks on them, monitor their comings and goings, and monitor everything they do on the application server we've developed. We've also built things in such a way their notes on victims (our customers) get locked up and have to be requested through their manager, and they get access to a very limited amount of information, only the customers they've worked with. > Given how motivated *I'd* be to continue to work in this sort > of env, simply offering them a job where they aren't living > in Ashcroft's Holiday Camp might be enough. Luckily everybody we're hiring is used to working in a similar, if not more secuer environment due to the nature of their vocation, which is dealing with financial fraud. > When I call in to places, sometimes I don't have my case number > on hand. As soon as I found out we were cut off automatically > in 60 seconds as a tool to keep employees from getting calls, > I'm not really motivated to continue doing business with that > company. We're feeling our customers are going to feel rather happy with the extra security measures we take to protect us from ourselves, especially due to the nature of the business. Plus a lot of the phone system concepts still need to be worked out in a practical sense. > Really: employees should live on premises for 12 month shifts > and either be killed or mind-wiped at the end to make them useless > and incoherent. Or perhaps sent to holiday islands for a 3 month > respite (isolated from the World) before their next shift. Hmm. The mind-wiping sounds complicated, but the 3 month isolation holiday sounds rather fun. ------------------- Michael T. Halligan Chief Geek Halligan Infrastructure Designs. http://www.halligan.org/ 2250 Jerrold Ave #11 San Francisco, CA 94124-1012 (415) 724.7998 - Mobile From alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com Sun Oct 19 11:02:35 2003 From: alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com (Alvin Oga) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 11:02:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Thoughts on premise security. - insurance In-Reply-To: <01a201c39533$e3812bf0$6400a8c0@hackintosh> Message-ID: hi ya one more thing ... to tighten the boat ... if "data security" is an issue, all the process and proceedures having been taken can be insured against potential business loss, lawsuits, etc, etc .. a major security firm, used to have $100M liability policy against its security process/proceedures for their security services they provide to their clients ( i dont know if they still maintain those policies ) if the data is lost/stolen, the insurance wont help you ... the "secret" is gone and out in competitions paws ... other kind of insurance you can get is errors and omissions insurance for all engineers and performance/deliverables - liability insurance for the officers and board of directors and on and on .. c ya alvin - dont forget the janitor(?) simply walked out with the pc at Visa international ( laptops, pda, cell phones is todays equivalent ) - and shread all documents ... ( hasn't been mentioned yet ?? ) or better still, get a fireplace in the building and burn it.. poorly shreaded documents are easier to put together than a good 10,000 pc puzzle From chuck+baylisa at snew.com Sun Oct 19 11:03:29 2003 From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 14:03:29 -0400 Subject: Free Course: Implementing Effective Business Contracts (resend) In-Reply-To: <3F917ACC.3060509@pacbell.net> References: <20031018130611.C442-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> <3F917ACC.3060509@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20031019180329.GD16660@snew.com> Quoting richard childers / kg6hac (fscked at pacbell.net): > "If you don't like it, the unsubscribe methods are straightforward." ... > website of my own, my alternatives are quite broad. Yes, quite. Please exercise them. > For instance, I could subscribe to the lists from another address, and > use this to demonstrate how messages are selectively propagated, and > submit the contents of the messages to statistical analysis by > interested third parties, so that they could determine, for themselves, > if a small party of, say, sycophants, might have seized control of the > organization and are using it for their own benefit. ... This may have > already happened, by the way. The alien overlords. See below. > I have not been arrested, or even questioned ... and yet, it's likely > that my Internet connection is tapped, and, indeed, a recent DSL service > out[r]age coincided with my tongue-in-cheek comments to another, via > email, that it was reassuring that taps could still be detected by the > network latency they inserted into the telecommunications circuit. (-: Golly, he's found us out. It *is* a big conspiracy. You've popped up on so many radar screens that you had to be stopped. Because you *know* about the (alien overlords|plans to put drugs in the tap water|radio signals beamed to your head just for you). Yeah, that's it. And SCO is the only salvation for puny humans. > So your pompous comments may well be recorded for future generations to > see in the archives of the United States Government; ask yourself how > your words will stand up ten years from now. As a gang of HTML opressing thugs bent on trying to keep postings on the list on-topic about the practice of system admin? Oh, sorry, as the words of the alien overlords. I was distracted cause I was woken early by the earthquake inducing satellite ray-gun that was aimed at my East Bay nest, er, house this morning. > Food for thought. I'm going to another restaurant. My Zagat's suggests that alt.conspiracy has a table open for you if you'd like do serve your food there. Or perhaps the secret lags again your email have to do with your posting of things that trigger spam rules and have to be let through by volunteers (puny human volunteers). Not sure why I'm writing for your s3cr3t archives, chuck From rick at linuxmafia.com Sun Oct 19 12:00:31 2003 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 12:00:31 -0700 Subject: Thoughts on premise security (redux) In-Reply-To: <3F9174D8.5060505@pacbell.net> References: <3F9174D8.5060505@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20031019190030.GT3713@linuxmafia.com> Quoting richard childers / kg6hac (fscked at pacbell.net): > (My first reply to this, sent over 90 minutes ago, was -not- propagated > by the BayLISA mail server ... Well, _duh_. I went back and checked, and here's the relevant stuff in your "first reply, sent over 90 minutes ago". (Ordinarily, my MUA as a matter of local policy autoremoves the annoying parts of doubled ASCII+HTML MIME mail, so I tend not to notice.) Here: > Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > Content-Transfer-Encoding > > Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Those are of course exactly what induce majordomo to hold your posts for manual listadmin approval. > Apparently, -someone- found the potential for someone, somewhere, > taking offense, was greater than your, and others', need for good > information. Nice, eh?) So, just to close out my inquiry, and cut through the bullshit: I had guessed that the cause of your complaint was exactly as above, but had wanted to check, anyway. As expected, it turns out to be not in the least mysterious. Obviously, you can stop having your posts intercepted (and making extra work for the postmasters) any time you feel like it. Or keep on 'til doomsday, if you prefer. OK, we're done. -- Cheers, Accordions don't play Lady of Spain; Rick Moen _people_ play Lady of Spain. rick at linuxmafia.com From peter at usestrict.org Sun Oct 19 13:12:28 2003 From: peter at usestrict.org (Piotr T Zbiegiel) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 13:12:28 -0700 Subject: HTML-encoded mail == BAD In-Reply-To: <3F917ACC.3060509@pacbell.net> References: <20031018130611.C442-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> <3F917ACC.3060509@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20031019201229.0FE806E523@smtp.us2.messagingengine.com> On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 10:39:24 -0700, "richard childers / kg6hac" said: > Say, refusing postings that have HTML, but including postings that have, > well, HTML. Hello! McFly! I thought Rick had already explained this in another post, but you simply don't get it. You are encoding your WHOLE MESSAGE in HTML! Have you ever looked at the raw source of one of your messages? Your messages are multi-part MIME. (I quote your message headers: 'Content-Type: multipart/alternative;' ) They include a text *and* an HTML version effectively doubling the size of your message (That's a sin of bandwidth to begin with!). Most mail readers automatically display the HTML version instead of the text version. Some readers let your turn this off and others do not. The point is that a malicious HTML encoded message could cause some people's mail readers problems. Spammers use it to see which email addresses actually reach a human who opens the message in their mail reader. Hell, you could even compromise a machine with the right bit of HTML and script. Try going to www.crackmonkey.org sometime with IE. But I digress, the point is that the list policy is to defer HTML encoded mail until a human can ensure it is relevant and then propagate it. As has been pointed out before, this maintenance is done on a volunteer basis and I doubt there is someone stationed 24/7 to approve your posts. If you don't like it, you could simply post text-only messages to the list you would get through immediately. And regarding your charge that some HTML mail gets propagated and yours doesn't, I've looked through many recent posts and you seem to be the only one who insists on posting multi-part encoded messages and then making conspiratory claims that you are being censored somehow because your message is delayed 90 minutes! On a Saturday, no less!! I don't know about you, but I'm sure the list admins have something better to do on Saturday mornings than list administration. I apologize if this explanation of "HTML-encoded e-mail == BAD" is not comprehensive enough but this argument has been discussed on every technical list I've ever been part of. If you want more info on the topic there's www.google.com. But in the end, it's the list policies that rule and I happen to think (and I'm willing to bet most people on the list would agreed) there is nothing wrong with them and I am willing to work within those rules (simple as they are). If you are not, that is too bad. Later -- Piotr T Zbiegiel From claw at kanga.nu Sun Oct 19 17:05:12 2003 From: claw at kanga.nu (J C Lawrence) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 20:05:12 -0400 Subject: inline HTML, 1L8N, 16-bit character sets, the death of ASCII predicted In-Reply-To: Message from richard childers / kg6hac of "Fri, 17 Oct 2003 12:38:01 PDT." <3F904519.10704@pacbell.net> References: <3F8F7C68.7010908@pacbell.net> <20031017193026.GA20291@snew.com> <3F904519.10704@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <31203.1066608312@kanga.nu> On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 12:38:01 -0700 richard childers > wrote: > Rich text isn't going away any time soon. In fact, most clients > automatically convert anything that parses as a URL into a clickable > entity. Multiple fonts are frequently embedded in messages. Automatic client-side parsing of static localhost-constrained content and automatic client-side parsing of dynamic and unbounded content are two different things. Currently no market-significant MUAs support constraining HTML-parsing to only localhost-static structures. I suggest you examine that difference and its implications carefully. It is rather more significant than you appear to currently understand. > I personally find it valuable to use bold to highlight certain > critical elements of communications to clients, so that there is no > misunderstanding. Certainly, but that doesn't define or require HTML. There are many _many_ *many* MANY ways to indicate EMPHASIS or -->indication<-- using flat text, and that doesn't even begin to include the other static content approaches like PDF, Postscript, TeX, dvi, etc. > The majority of the world's users increasingly agree, that this adds > value ... and with 18LN efforts solidly based on 16-bit character > sets, the days of plain old ASCII are, I suspect, numbered. You may be right, but that a) doesn't necessarily apply here, b) doesn't necessarily apply now, and perhaps more significantly c) has been explicitly selected and defined as being unwelcome here and now. If you disagree with that particular technical view you are more than free to state and demonstrate your case. However, don't be surprised if the reaction is: You think you could do the job better? Then you take the job and you be responsible! It is very easy to criticise. It is a little less easy to define, implement and maintain solutions which can't be criticised. -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw at kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From claw at kanga.nu Sun Oct 19 17:18:28 2003 From: claw at kanga.nu (J C Lawrence) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 20:18:28 -0400 Subject: Free Course: Implementing Effective Business Contracts (resend) In-Reply-To: Message from richard childers / kg6hac of "Sat, 18 Oct 2003 10:39:24 PDT." <3F917ACC.3060509@pacbell.net> References: <20031018130611.C442-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> <3F917ACC.3060509@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <31377.1066609108@kanga.nu> On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 10:39:24 -0700 richard childers > wrote: > The fact is that BayLISA exists for the entire population of Bay Area > systems administrators. That's a rather slipshod definition that implies a direct definitional equivalence between BayLISA's charter and this list's charter. Certainly they are related, but they are not necessarily identical. > That is its mandate. Your comments do not challenge my statement that > this sort of leadership is unsatisfactory ... and that is because I am > right. It -is- shoddy leadership. > However, because it is a public, non-profit corporation, and I have a > website of my own, my alternatives are quite broad. You are making poor and illogical arguments. I strongly suggest you read and understand the pages at the following URL before continuing this thread. You'll save us all considerable time by doing so. http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ > For instance, I could subscribe to the lists from another address, and > use this to demonstrate how messages are selectively propagated, and > submit the contents of the messages to statistical analysis by > interested third parties, so that they could determine, for > themselves, if a small party of, say, sycophants, might have seized > control of the organization and are using it for their own > benefit. ... This may have already happened, by the way. Oy vey. You really do need to read those pages and study them well. Don't worry if it takes a while; we'll understand. > Another is to collect this information for a few years until I have > such a vast accumulation of contradictory behavior from the group, as > a whole, that it's just plain embarrassing. Yup, you could do that. Hey, I tell you what, that would be a grand idea, a wonderful idea! Brilliant! Sheer genius! Please do! > Say, refusing postings that have HTML, but including postings that > have, well, HTML. Have any of your HTML-bearing posts been refused, or have they merely been held for manual approval by the moderator? Can you conclusively demonstrate that the only possible explanation for such a refusal was that the message contained HTML rather than some other reason? I look forward to your well constructed and carefully argued thesis. > Maybe you should stick to raising cats. I like herding cats. I also like training cats. Its fun and not quite as difficult as it is cracked up to be. However, you are not a cat. EOT. -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw at kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From rick at linuxmafia.com Sun Oct 19 17:35:51 2003 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 17:35:51 -0700 Subject: HTML-encoded mail == BAD In-Reply-To: <20031019201229.0FE806E523@smtp.us2.messagingengine.com> References: <20031018130611.C442-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> <3F917ACC.3060509@pacbell.net> <20031019201229.0FE806E523@smtp.us2.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <20031020003551.GU3713@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Piotr T Zbiegiel (peter at usestrict.org): > You are encoding your WHOLE MESSAGE in HTML! Have you ever > looked at the raw source of one of your messages? Your messages are > multi-part MIME. Let's be charitable, and assume he hasn't. There are quite a lot of people who turn out, upon inquiry, to be posting doubled copies of all mail (once in plaintext, once in verbose HTML markup below that) mostly because they either aren't aware of that, or have no idea how not to. http://expita.com/nomime.html has instructions on how to disable MIME-doubled ASCII + HTML mode for all common MUAs (which is why Eric Raymond and I hyperlink to it in our on-line essay "How to Ask Questions the Smart Way"). My recollection is that Richard uses some Mozilla or Netscape mailer for Win32, so the following specific link will likely help (assuming he _wishes_ to use that information): http://expita.com/nomime.html#mozilla11 In any event, I offer up that link pro bono publico, as I've found it helpful in many forums. -- Cheers, Accordions don't play Lady of Spain; Rick Moen _people_ play Lady of Spain. rick at linuxmafia.com From camorris at mars.ark.com Sun Oct 19 18:08:59 2003 From: camorris at mars.ark.com (Cheryl Morris) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 18:08:59 -0700 Subject: Grub In-Reply-To: References: <3F8F7C68.7010908@pacbell.net> <3F8F7C68.7010908@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031019174442.0215ad60@mars.ark.com> Was interested in the reference to Grub as I'm studying Online Information Retrieval (as well as Info Security) and have tried it. I cannot say that I am impressed, but it is beta. The information about Grub is confusing; if I understand the site blurbs correctly, it is a distributed [SETI-like- approach to building up their URLs for a for-profit site. Hum. Any specific information on why you think it is great? WiseNut and WiseSearch off of Grub don't [yet] seem exceptional. >>How long will it be before someone writes an application which, once >>distributed, replaces Google as the premier search engine, worldwide, >>redundantly cached, perhaps language-neutral, with error checking to >>protect against cache poisoning and encrypted channels to prevent >>in-transit corruption of results? > >It's already here. It's called Grub: >http://www.grub.org/ From baylisa-local at merlins.org Tue Oct 21 23:59:19 2003 From: baylisa-local at merlins.org (Marc MERLIN) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 23:59:19 -0700 Subject: SBA: Getting Top Position On Google In-Reply-To: <3F9019D6.1050508@pacbell.net> References: <3F9019D6.1050508@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20031022065918.GA7141@merlins.org> On Fri, Oct 17, 2003 at 09:33:26AM -0700, richard childers / kg6hac wrote: > (Previous comments about Google stock viability aside; hey, it's a free > class, and other search engines are likely to index the same tags and > keywords.) > > Time: 6:00 PM to 8:30 PM > Location: SBA Entrepreneur Center, > 455 Market St., 6th Floor, > San Francisco, CA, 94105 I'm not sure what the class says, but be careful, some tips are good and are indeed good ideas to get better rankings For instance, don't do this if you'd like to be indexed: http://www.emhewt.com/services.html Other tips like putting lots of words in your page to get hits on lots of things, invisible fonts, circular links and so forth are detected by smart crawlers and will rank you negatively. (in other words, some companies got their rankings lowered after paying some SEOs, seach engine optimizers, a lot of money) Just a fair warning which basically boils down to use good judgement :) Marc -- "A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R. Microsoft is to operating systems & security .... .... what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ | Finger marc_f at merlins.org for PGP key From fscked at pacbell.net Wed Oct 22 07:28:14 2003 From: fscked at pacbell.net (richard childers / kg6hac) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 07:28:14 -0700 Subject: Getting Top Position On Google - Don't Do This. What & Why? In-Reply-To: <20031022065918.GA7141@merlins.org> References: <3F9019D6.1050508@pacbell.net> <20031022065918.GA7141@merlins.org> Message-ID: <3F9693FE.3040402@pacbell.net> I might or might not agree ... but why? It is helpful to me, and, I suppose, others, if someone transmitting what they consider to be useful information to me, says, "Don't do this", if they also explain exactly what they are referring to, and why. While I encourage everyone to cultivate an ablity to read between the lines, it's not the best way to convey technical information. -- richard Marc MERLIN wrote: >On Fri, Oct 17, 2003 at 09:33:26AM -0700, richard childers / kg6hac wrote: > > >>(Previous comments about Google stock viability aside; hey, it's a free >>class, and other search engines are likely to index the same tags and >>keywords.) >> >>Time: 6:00 PM to 8:30 PM >>Location: SBA Entrepreneur Center, >> 455 Market St., 6th Floor, >> San Francisco, CA, 94105 >> >> > >I'm not sure what the class says, but be careful, some tips are good >and are indeed good ideas to get better rankings >For instance, don't do this if you'd like to be indexed: >http://www.emhewt.com/services.html > >Other tips like putting lots of words in your page to get hits on lots of >things, invisible fonts, circular links and so forth are detected by smart >crawlers and will rank you negatively. >(in other words, some companies got their rankings lowered after paying >some SEOs, seach engine optimizers, a lot of money) > >Just a fair warning which basically boils down to use good judgement :) > >Marc > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rsr at inorganic.org Wed Oct 22 08:42:06 2003 From: rsr at inorganic.org (Roy S. Rapoport) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 08:42:06 -0700 Subject: Getting Top Position On Google - Don't Do This. What & Why? In-Reply-To: <3F9693FE.3040402@pacbell.net> References: <3F9019D6.1050508@pacbell.net> <20031022065918.GA7141@merlins.org> <3F9693FE.3040402@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20031022154206.GA14883@nag.inorganic.org> On Wed, Oct 22, 2003 at 07:28:14AM -0700, richard childers / kg6hac wrote: > I might or might not agree ... but why? > > It is helpful to me, and, I suppose, others, if someone transmitting > what they consider to be useful information to me, says, "Don't do > this", if they also explain exactly what they are referring to, and why. > > While I encourage everyone to cultivate an ablity to read between the > lines, it's not the best way to convey technical information. I'm not sure I understand what it is you are attempting to convey. Mark clearly indicated that some practices meant to artificially inflate page rankings will end up adversely affecting page ranking once you get caught. Are you disputing that he was clear? Or are you asking him to justify why it is that search engines have the temerity to punish people who attempt to cheat? -roy From bill at wards.net Wed Oct 22 10:13:15 2003 From: bill at wards.net (William R Ward) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 10:13:15 -0700 Subject: Peninsula Linux Users' Group meets tomorrow 7-9pm @ Oracle Message-ID: <16278.47787.944294.375317@komodo.home.wards.net> You are invited to attend this month's meeting of PenLUG, the Peninsula Linux Users' Group, Thursday October 23, 2003, from 7-9pm. We meet at the Oracle headquarters in Redwood Shores, just south of San Mateo. Address: 100 Oracle Parkway, Redwood City, CA 94065 (room 1op104). For directions, see our website at http://www.penlug.org/ or reply to this email. RSVP (optional, but appreciated) to rsvp at penlug.org if you plan to attend. If you need carpool help, email carpool at penlug.org. Here is the agenda for the meeting: 7:00pm - 7:30pm Peter Corless, "Fence Sitters & Network Effects" 7:30pm - 8:30pm Peter Thoeny, "Web Collaboration with TWiki" 8:30pm - 9:00pm App of the Month Club: Emacs and Xemacs Detailed information about each of these items follows. Note: For the next two meetings, we will be switching to the 2nd Thursday of each month in order to avoid conflicts with Thanksgiving and Christmas. We plan to resume meeting on the 4th Thursdays in January. Our November meeting will be on Thursday, Nov. 13. We still need speakers for the next few meetings, so send your ideas to speakers at penlug.org. "Fence Sitters & Network Effects" by Peter Corless -------------------------------------------------- Linux was hot. Then it was not. Then it was hot again. What is responsible for people to leap lemming-like to unproven technologies at one moment, and then at others avoid tried-and-true rock-solid products? A Linux "outsider" gives his views on the Linux phenomenon. There are legions of declared Linux supporters who are still only potential users at the edge of the dance floor. What keeps them from getting into the mix? Perhaps the voice of an outsider might bring a different perspective to those who are too close to the solution to see the real problem. "Web Collaboration with TWiki" by Peter Thoeny ---------------------------------------------- Knowledge-intensive companies are faced with challenges of how to keep Intranet content up-to-date, and how to best share knowledge among teams. TWiki is an Open Source, web-based collaboration platform addressing these questions. It is developed in large part by our speaker, Peter Thoeny, who explains what it is, its history, how it is used, and how you can get involved with TWiki in order to enable your teams to be better informed and to be more productive. App of the Month Club: Emacs and Xemacs --------------------------------------- Last month we did vi and vim, so we decided it was only fair to give Emacs a turn. Come share your favorite Emacs tips and tricks. But let's not get into an argument about which editor is better, just how to make the most of Emacs or Xemacs. -- William R Ward bill at wards.net http://www.wards.net/~bill/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- PROFESSIONAL PROGRAMMER, CLOSED COURSE. DO NOT ATTEMPT. From camorris at mars.ark.com Wed Oct 22 16:29:26 2003 From: camorris at mars.ark.com (Cheryl Morris) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 16:29:26 -0700 Subject: Getting Top Position On Google - Don't Do This. What & Why? In-Reply-To: <3F9693FE.3040402@pacbell.net> References: <20031022065918.GA7141@merlins.org> <3F9019D6.1050508@pacbell.net> <20031022065918.GA7141@merlins.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031022162808.01eec378@mars.ark.com> Heh! Look at the source code! Cheryl >I might or might not agree ... but why? > >It is helpful to me, and, I suppose, others, if someone transmitting what >they consider to be useful information to me, says, "Don't do this", if >they also explain exactly what they are referring to, and why. > >While I encourage everyone to cultivate an ablity to read between the >lines, it's not the best way to convey technical information. From david at catwhisker.org Wed Oct 22 20:45:10 2003 From: david at catwhisker.org (David Wolfskill) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 20:45:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Software for backups Message-ID: <200310230345.h9N3jAAE096713@bunrab.catwhisker.org> At my workplace, one of the things I need to implement is backups (and demonstrate an ability to perform restores). I'm somewhat familiar with the general issues -- it's something I've dealt with since about 1988. And I have a copy of W. Curtis Preston's _Unix Backup and Recovery_, and I have started reading it. :-} The environment is mostly FreeBSD (which agrees with me Just Fine), with (a possibility of) some Solaris (which I can cope with OK), and my boss tells me that there is also a requirement to back up data that have been placed on Microsoft-based machines. If it weren't for that last, I'd implement AMANDA and be done with it. However, I have not seen much evidence that there is a feasible way to cause a Microsoft-based machine to act as an AMANDA client; further, I have no way to evaluate how well software that is alleged to cause or allow such a machine to be backed up works (in any sense of the term). (Apparently the Microsoft environments have something called a "SHARE," by which some other machine -- possibly a non-Microsoft one -- can obtain access to the data. My boss tells me that using such an approach for this task is not acceptable.) My boss has already acquired the hardware to be used (an 8-slot, re-badged Breece Hill AIT3 autoloader). As for software that I've started to evaluate (and comments): * AMANDA As alluded to above, I started implementing AMANDA just so I'd have something fairly familiar that would drive the hardware and demonstrate that things basically worked. (Well, I needed to hack /usr/src/sys/cam/scsi/scsi_ch.c; it seems that the firmware on the autoloader underestimates the size of the buffer needed to hold the result of a status inquiry. [My thanks to Ken Merry for guiding me toward a circumvention for the problem, though he is not in any way responsible for the gross hack I committed to make it "work".]) And, as mentioned abovem, I know of no Microsoft-based client for AMANDA. * Arkeia My boss thought this was interesting; they claim to have client software for a wide variety of environments. Unfortunately, their selection for server software is rather more limited: of the 3 environments listed, I would be willing to consider using either FreeBSD or Solaris for the server. And we happened to have a couple of Ultra 5s that were pathologically underutilized, so I did a fresh install of Solaris 9 on one of them and tried it out. Despite several "boot -r" incantations, I never was able to get Solaris to even recognize the existence of the tape drive, let alone the autoloader. So I loaded FreeBSD 5.1-RELEASE on the other U5. I'm managing to not recall the mode of failure for this case, but it didn't work. I then thought I'd give Arkeia one more chance: by running the Linux version of the server under FreeBSD (in Linux emulation). Unfortunately, that generated messages about unimplemented ioctls; I wasn't willing to try my hand at implementing them at this stage. * NetVault (BakBone) These folks claim to have both client and server software for FreeBSD, Microsoft, and Solaris. I have been working with it for a few days; we had some issues with making it work across subnet boundaries (because of bi-directional packet-filtering that we do), and until today, the only mechanism I knew of for setting the port ranges to be used (for UNIX systems) was their X-based GUI. That's (more or less) OK for machines that have X, but not all of our intended client boxes have X at all. We found today that there is a curses-based tool with equivalent functionality. (Yes, of course I would prefer a configuration file, so I could copy it from machine to machine, and maintain a central repository of them in CVS. One battle at a time....) So: Anyone have experiences that incline them to be willing and able to offer suggestions for this? Are there products I'm overlooking? Ways to get one of the above to be more (nearly) tractable for the stated environment? Naturally, I'll summarize responses sent to me. Thanks! Peace, david -- David H. Wolfskill david at catwhisker.org If you want true virus-protection for your PC, install a non-Microsoft OS on it. Plausible candidates include FreeBSD, Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, and Solaris (in alphabetical order). From michael at halligan.org Wed Oct 22 21:47:34 2003 From: michael at halligan.org (Michael T. Halligan) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:47:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RedHat Advanced Server licensing? Message-ID: I was wondering if anybody has done anything with AS? I've got a copy of it I purchased a few months ago for an oracle server built for a customer who backed out of the deal.. I use it to run some of my internal servers.. The licensing was never clear.. It seems to me that everything in it is GPL, and the extra features are just really tools for some of the redhat developed tools like tux, piranha, redhat cluster manager, etc.. All of the programs appear to be GPL though.. So it seems to me the only licensing issue is if I use it on other servers that aren't "licensed", I'm not breaking licensing terms, it's just not supported. I'm asking because all of the docs that came with it have long since been lost, and all I have are the original cds and a purchase receipt.. It's been less than easy to get somebody @ redhat to respond to my calls/e-mails about this. ------------------- Michael T. Halligan Chief Geek Halligan Infrastructure Designs. http://www.halligan.org/ 2250 Jerrold Ave #11 San Francisco, CA 94124-1012 (415) 724.7998 - Mobile From rick at linuxmafia.com Wed Oct 22 22:33:28 2003 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 22:33:28 -0700 Subject: RedHat Advanced Server licensing? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031023053328.GU28514@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Michael T. Halligan (michael at halligan.org): > I was wondering if anybody has done anything with AS? Oh yeah. RHEL 2.1 (formerly called RHAS 2.1) is just RH 7.2 with a few tweaks, put in a box, and bundled with a support contract. RHEL 3.0 (just out) seems to be RH9 with similar small tweaks, and is published in similar bundles. > I use it to run some of my internal servers.. The licensing was never > clear. If you get a chance to verify the licensing of all the constituent packages, please let me know. I haven't had time. > It seems to me that everything in it is GPL... Um, that's a big no, there: Apache is Apache-licensed, the bsdutils are BSD-licensed, XFree86 is MIT/X11-licensed, etc. At least one component, pine/pico, is under a proprietary licence that permits public redistribution. It's possible that at least one package's licence doesn't permit that, but I haven't so far found any. > ...and the extra features are just really tools for some of the redhat > developed tools like tux, piranha, redhat cluster manager, etc.. All > of the programs appear to be GPL though.. To the best of my knowledge, every piece of software issued by RH, Inc. (except for some proprietary tools issued by the former Cygnus division) have always been issued under GNU GPL v. 2. However, that's a far cry from the entire distribution being GPLed. Obviously, it would not be, given the components from elsewhere known to be otherwise licensed. > So it seems to me the only licensing issue is if I use it on other > servers that aren't "licensed", I'm not breaking licensing terms, it's > just not supported. The above is a bit fuzzy. Possible encumbrances are as follows: o Copyright - subject to checking of the individual packages, as noted o Trademark - definitely has these. See: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/trademark-law o Patents - believed not to apply in this case o Contract - definitely an issue as to the company purchasing RHEL. See: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/rhel-isos o Trade secret - not bloody likely in this case, but listed for completeness. Main points about RHEL, in my view, are at the two URLs above. Beware of obligations under the support contract (which automatically renews). -- Cheers, find / -user your -name base -print | xargs chown us:us Rick Moen rick at linuxmafia.com From rflii at speakeasy.net Wed Oct 22 23:19:01 2003 From: rflii at speakeasy.net (Ron Leedy) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 23:19:01 -0700 Subject: Host Based Intrusion Detection Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I am needing to deploy a host based intrusion detection system as recommended by a security audit team. I know of AIDE and Tripwire. Is there any other solutions? What are the experiences that people have had with any of these systems. Any system worth anything would need to detect automatically an unauthorized change and send an alert. The platforms this would need to support is RedHat, Solaris, and W2K server. Thanks in advance, Ron Leedy -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0 iQA/AwUBP5dy04iqj/VUJphgEQIGUwCgudZC+FdApSVTcc3B60un4btYm+oAnR8P E2KF45s4n/JdoBaqH9hfYZzh =WyKw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.525 / Virus Database: 322 - Release Date: 10/9/2003 From matt at offmyserver.com Wed Oct 22 23:34:06 2003 From: matt at offmyserver.com (Matt Olander) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 23:34:06 -0700 Subject: [murray@freebsd.org: [FreeBSD-Announce] FreeBSD 10 Year Anniversary Party (San Francisco) : Viva FreeBSD!] Message-ID: <20031022233406.A72487@knight.ixsystems.net> hey guys, we're hosting the 10 Year FreeBSD Anniversary Party next month at the DNA Lounge in San Francisco. here's the post to announce at freebsd.org. cheers, -matt ----- Forwarded message from Murray Stokely ----- Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 20:49:33 -0700 From: Murray Stokely Subject: [FreeBSD-Announce] FreeBSD 10 Year Anniversary Party (San Francisco) : Viva FreeBSD! To: announce at freebsd.org A long time ago, in a galaxy far far away...in the early part of 1993...the last 3 coordinators of the 'Unofficial 386BSD Patchkit' would go on to start the FreeBSD project that has grown to be used by millions of websites and installations around the world. Of course, I'm talking about Jordan Hubbard, Nate Williams, and Rod Grimes. Looking for a catchy name, David Greenman suggested FreeBSD and it stuck. With the help of Walnut Creek CDROM, the first CDROM distribution, FreeBSD 1.0, was released in December of 1993. In honor of these momentous events, we invite you to join us for an evening of celebrating FreeBSD! We'll dance and party the night away with our laptops nearby (and on the DNA Lounge wireless network, of course). Maybe we can talk Jordan into sharing a few stories of the early days...and buy him a drink or two. FreeBSD Mall will have some 4.9 CD's and the coveted FreeBSD boxer shorts ;) When: Monday, November 24th (8pm - 2am) Where: DNA Lounge in San Francisco (http://www.dnalounge.com) Who: Any and all FreeBSD developers, system administrators, and advocates Please RSVP at http://www.offmyserver.com/cgi-bin/store/rsvp.html or use the banner on the front of http://www.freebsdmall.com so we can make sure there's enough food and drink for all. - Murray Stokely & Matt Olander P.S. We'll be webcasting live for those who can't make it. Hope to see you there. ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Matt Olander (408)943-4100 Phone (408)943-4101 Fax www.offmyserver.com -- "Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't" -Mark Twain From dan_bethe at yahoo.com Thu Oct 23 00:19:53 2003 From: dan_bethe at yahoo.com (Dan Bethe) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 00:19:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RedHat Advanced Server licensing? In-Reply-To: <20031023053328.GU28514@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <20031023071953.49823.qmail@web11003.mail.yahoo.com> I don't personally know anything about RHAS or RHEA other than to know that Rick is correct. They do have intellectual property not licensed for redistribution contained in either one. I just met a guy this week who's doing a project to create an exact clone of it, minus those parts. It's a side project of this: http://www.caosity.org/ I know the site's got a lot of rambling verbosity which doesn't really reflect the mission well. They could reduce 2 pages down to one paragraph. But there are side projects surrounding caosity.org, and there is Fedora and whatnot. At VA Linux, basically the idea was to produce "redhat, but fixed". And this caosity project has some of VA's former lead engineering talent behind it. As I understand it, none of this is production work just yet. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From chuck+baylisa at snew.com Thu Oct 23 00:34:00 2003 From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 03:34:00 -0400 Subject: RedHat Advanced Server licensing? In-Reply-To: <20031023053328.GU28514@linuxmafia.com> References: <20031023053328.GU28514@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <20031023073400.GA11861@snew.com> To my knowledge, like SuSE X.Y "Professional", it contains a number of nonGPL and restricted licensed things in them. They will sell you, for a bit of cash, licenses for multiple machines. If you want something to run on multiple machines, you can download 7.3 or 9.0 for free and know its free. I do have some issues with making copies of software they do sell and that they ONLY sell. They've done plenty of good for the open source world. Use their stuff that's clearly free if you don't want to pay. Quoting Rick Moen (rick at linuxmafia.com): > Quoting Michael T. Halligan (michael at halligan.org): > > > I was wondering if anybody has done anything with AS? > > Oh yeah. RHEL 2.1 (formerly called RHAS 2.1) is just RH 7.2 with a few > tweaks, put in a box, and bundled with a support contract. > > RHEL 3.0 (just out) seems to be RH9 with similar small tweaks, and is > published in similar bundles. > > > I use it to run some of my internal servers.. The licensing was never > > clear. > > If you get a chance to verify the licensing of all the constituent > packages, please let me know. I haven't had time. > > > It seems to me that everything in it is GPL... > > Um, that's a big no, there: Apache is Apache-licensed, the bsdutils are > BSD-licensed, XFree86 is MIT/X11-licensed, etc. At least one component, > pine/pico, is under a proprietary licence that permits public > redistribution. It's possible that at least one package's licence > doesn't permit that, but I haven't so far found any. > > > ...and the extra features are just really tools for some of the redhat > > developed tools like tux, piranha, redhat cluster manager, etc.. All > > of the programs appear to be GPL though.. > > To the best of my knowledge, every piece of software issued by RH, Inc. > (except for some proprietary tools issued by the former Cygnus division) > have always been issued under GNU GPL v. 2. However, that's a far cry > from the entire distribution being GPLed. Obviously, it would not be, > given the components from elsewhere known to be otherwise licensed. > > > So it seems to me the only licensing issue is if I use it on other > > servers that aren't "licensed", I'm not breaking licensing terms, it's > > just not supported. > > The above is a bit fuzzy. Possible encumbrances are as follows: > > o Copyright - subject to checking of the individual packages, as noted > o Trademark - definitely has these. See: > http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/trademark-law > o Patents - believed not to apply in this case > o Contract - definitely an issue as to the company purchasing RHEL. See: > http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/rhel-isos > o Trade secret - not bloody likely in this case, but listed for completeness. > > Main points about RHEL, in my view, are at the two URLs above. Beware > of obligations under the support contract (which automatically renews). > > -- > Cheers, find / -user your -name base -print | xargs chown us:us > Rick Moen > rick at linuxmafia.com From scott at igc.org Thu Oct 23 01:15:20 2003 From: scott at igc.org (Scott Weikart) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 01:15:20 -0700 Subject: RedHat Advanced Server licensing? In-Reply-To: <20031023071953.49823.qmail@web11003.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20031023071953.49823.qmail@web11003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <03102301152001.01752@sandino.dnsalias.org> For a RHEL-from-source project that looks much more real, checkout http://lwn.net/Articles/40066/ -scott On Thursday 23 October 2003 12:19 am, Dan Bethe wrote: > I don't personally know anything about RHAS or RHEA other than to know that > Rick is correct. They do have intellectual property not licensed for > redistribution contained in either one. > > I just met a guy this week who's doing a project to create an exact clone > of it, minus those parts. It's a side project of this: > > http://www.caosity.org/ > > I know the site's got a lot of rambling verbosity which doesn't really > reflect the mission well. They could reduce 2 pages down to one paragraph. > But there are side projects surrounding caosity.org, and there is Fedora > and whatnot. At VA Linux, basically the idea was to produce "redhat, but > fixed". And this caosity project has some of VA's former lead engineering > talent behind it. > > As I understand it, none of this is production work just yet. > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search > http://shopping.yahoo.com From rick at linuxmafia.com Thu Oct 23 01:29:17 2003 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 01:29:17 -0700 Subject: RedHat Advanced Server licensing? In-Reply-To: <20031023073400.GA11861@snew.com> References: <20031023053328.GU28514@linuxmafia.com> <20031023073400.GA11861@snew.com> Message-ID: <20031023082917.GV28514@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Chuck Yerkes (chuck+baylisa at snew.com): > To my knowledge, like SuSE X.Y "Professional", it contains > a number of nonGPL and restricted licensed things in them. Yes, but what _is_ the extent of your knowledge on this matter? I ask that in all sincerity, and intend no disrespect: Please let us know which packages are under restricted licensing (i.e., licensing that unlike that of the pine/pico package doesn't permit public redistribution). Here's RHAS/RHEL 2.1: http://altruistic.lbl.gov/mirrors/redhat/enterprise/2.1AS/en/os/i386/SRPMS/ I have to admit, I haven't had a chance to licence-audit all of that stuff, but I spot-checked it, and nothing immediately popped out as unredistributable. (You can unpack the SRPMs using cpio, if need be -- among other things.) > I do have some issues with making copies of software they > do sell and that they ONLY sell. The factual question of interest is what, if anything, encumbers someone who's lawfully received a copy from redistributing it. People can make up their minds _after_ determining the facts whether they like those facts or not. ;-> > Use their stuff that's clearly free if you don't want to pay. I hope you're not confusing cost with licensing. Trust me, you really don't want to review that. ;-> Just as a point of comparison, here is my write-up on SuSE licensing: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/suse-product-strategy Please note that SuSE exercises control over redistribution of SuSE Professional through its copyright over YaST/YaST2 and their installer routine -- none of which codebases is open source or any other licensing permitting unrestricted public redistribution. I will be grateful if you can point to any RHAS packages similarly encumbered. -- Cheers, "Don't use Outlook. Outlook is really just a security Rick Moen hole with a small e-mail client attached to it." rick at linuxmafia.com -- Brian Trosko in r.a.sf.w.r-j From alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com Thu Oct 23 01:13:11 2003 From: alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com (Alvin Oga) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 01:13:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Software for backups - ms In-Reply-To: <200310230345.h9N3jAAE096713@bunrab.catwhisker.org> Message-ID: hi ya david On Wed, 22 Oct 2003, David Wolfskill wrote: > At my workplace, one of the things I need to implement is backups (and > demonstrate an ability to perform restores). I'm somewhat familiar > with the general issues -- it's something I've dealt with since about > 1988. And I have a copy of W. Curtis Preston's _Unix Backup and > Recovery_, and I have started reading it. :-} best way to backup data from ms machines.. - have "management" enforce the rule that any data in "My Documents" folder is backed ... - all other data on the windoze box is eraseable ( already on the MS cdrom ) 2nd best way to backup data from ms machines - have windoze users drag-n-drop their data/files into their "network-shared-home-directory" on the FreeBSD box - 2nd best because they will always claim to have backed up their sales projections, sales agreements and other important corp data files Management should have a policy : - if the users work is not backed up onto the corp backup servers, than they are considered not working, being productive - it will always be an issue management-asking-windoze: yes, i did back it up management0asking-admin: but than, where is the files you say you backed up "backups" has to be automated ... and admins just make sure that daily backup files exists and are restorable daily BackupServer: - automount the windoze box with samba - backup "my documents" - umount the windoze box more backup fun ( collection of free scripts/apps ) http://www.Linux-Backup.net - backups should be encrypted files :-) c ya alvin > The environment is mostly FreeBSD (which agrees with me Just Fine), > with (a possibility of) some Solaris (which I can cope with OK), > and my boss tells me that there is also a requirement to back up > data that have been placed on Microsoft-based machines. > From claw at kanga.nu Thu Oct 23 06:58:42 2003 From: claw at kanga.nu (J C Lawrence) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 09:58:42 -0400 Subject: Software for backups In-Reply-To: Message from David Wolfskill of "Wed, 22 Oct 2003 20:45:10 PDT." <200310230345.h9N3jAAE096713@bunrab.catwhisker.org> References: <200310230345.h9N3jAAE096713@bunrab.catwhisker.org> Message-ID: <5323.1066917522@kanga.nu> On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 20:45:10 -0700 (PDT) David Wolfskill wrote: > And, as mentioned abovem, I know of no Microsoft-based client for > AMANDA. Unchecked: http://sourceforge.net/projects/amanda-win32/ Google also keeps mentioning a Cygwin-based Amanda client. -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw at kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From pmm at igtc.com Thu Oct 23 07:39:53 2003 From: pmm at igtc.com (Paul M. Moriarty) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 07:39:53 -0700 Subject: Software for backups - ms In-Reply-To: References: <200310230345.h9N3jAAE096713@bunrab.catwhisker.org> Message-ID: <20031023143953.GJ31021@igtc.igtc.com> If you've got the $$$ and want to backup Windows machines, look to the Veritas offerings. We have been extremely pleased with them. Block-level incrementals rock. Policy, in and of itself, will not change user behavior. It's really of little value to fire somebody who just lost hundreds of thousands of dollars of intellectual property because he didn't follow your policy. I am a firm believer of (within reason) adapting the computing environment to mimic user behavior, as opposed to the other way around. It's easier (though usually more costly) and results in a happy user community (which indirectly leads to employment longevity :). - Paul - From neil at askneil.com Thu Oct 23 09:50:31 2003 From: neil at askneil.com (Neil Katin) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 09:50:31 -0700 Subject: Software for backups In-Reply-To: <5323.1066917522@kanga.nu> References: <200310230345.h9N3jAAE096713@bunrab.catwhisker.org> <5323.1066917522@kanga.nu> Message-ID: <3F9806D7.7030907@askneil.com> Have you checked out bacula? It seems to support bsd for server, and windows as clients http://www.bacula.com http://sourceforge.net/projects/bacula Also, you said you were going to back up to an AIT autoloader. Given disk prices today, you may want to consider backing up to disk, and then archiving to tape later. Neil Katin From bill at wards.net Thu Oct 23 11:01:39 2003 From: bill at wards.net (William R Ward) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 11:01:39 -0700 Subject: SBA: Getting Top Position On Google In-Reply-To: <3F9019D6.1050508@pacbell.net> References: <3F9019D6.1050508@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <16280.6019.780743.512977@komodo.home.wards.net> I suppose one could just go by there every day at 6pm, hoping it was the right day, but it would save us a lot of work if you told us which day/date it was to be held on... --Bill. richard childers / kg6hac writes: >(Previous comments about Google stock viability aside; hey, it's a free >class, and other search engines are likely to index the same tags and >keywords.) > >Time: 6:00 PM to 8:30 PM >Location: SBA Entrepreneur Center, > 455 Market St., 6th Floor, > San Francisco, CA, 94105 > >Directions: The SBA Entrepreneur Center is located on the corner of Market and First Streets in downtown San Francisco. The closest BART/Muni station is the Montgomery St. Station. Parking is very limited, we strongly recommend using public transportation. > > >Note that prior registration is suggested; www.acteva.com, search for >'SBA', select the course and register; you'll receive a confirmatory email. > > >-- richard > >Richard Childers / Senior Engineer >Daemonized Networking Services >https://www.daemonized.com >(415) 759-5571 > -- William R Ward bill at wards.net http://www.wards.net/~bill/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- PROFESSIONAL PROGRAMMER, CLOSED COURSE. DO NOT ATTEMPT. From bill at wards.net Thu Oct 23 11:09:32 2003 From: bill at wards.net (William R Ward) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 11:09:32 -0700 Subject: SBA In-Reply-To: <3F82E3CC.1060700@pacbell.net> References: <3F82E3CC.1060700@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <16280.6492.970342.825774@komodo.home.wards.net> I met with some SCORE folks once. They were helpful but I dropped the ball. richard childers / kg6hac writes: >Have any of the budding entrepreneurs reading these words spent any time >working with the SBA on their business plans, or any other aspects of >their business development? > >Inquiring minds want to know. > > >-- richard > >Richard Childers / Zenior Engineer >Daemonized Nyetworking Systems >https://www.daemonized.com >(415) 759-5571 > -- William R Ward bill at wards.net http://www.wards.net/~bill/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- PROFESSIONAL PROGRAMMER, CLOSED COURSE. DO NOT ATTEMPT. From chuck+baylisa at snew.com Thu Oct 23 11:35:20 2003 From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 14:35:20 -0400 Subject: Software for backups In-Reply-To: <200310230345.h9N3jAAE096713@bunrab.catwhisker.org> References: <200310230345.h9N3jAAE096713@bunrab.catwhisker.org> Message-ID: <20031023183520.GA239@snew.com> Quoting David Wolfskill (david at catwhisker.org): > At my workplace, one of the things I need to implement is backups (and > demonstrate an ability to perform restores). I'm somewhat familiar > with the general issues -- it's something I've dealt with since about > 1988. And I have a copy of W. Curtis Preston's _Unix Backup and > Recovery_, and I have started reading it. :-} I'd say your into the commercial realm. Despite alvin's stream of conciousness ramblings, windows stuffs information into many many places (registries and the like). You *do not* want to require the users to have to take active actions to be safe. Your job is to make it so their tool (windows) works. Training them all to run be experts about their OS annoys them and (more often) just fails. I've had tons of problems with a "shared folder." Laptops come with 60GB drives. 100 laptops won't backup well through that. Vertitas netbackup is a fine tool from a cross platform vendor. We have stuff that removes certain files before going to a large HSM system (bigger system than you want). So we don't backup mp3 files and certain other types of files. It costs too much to keep them and there may be liability. RE: the ORA book. I'm really not in love with it. ORA has tended to be TOO thorough. Rather than best practice, they take an expert and make him document EVERY practice/product. Which means that immediately a majority of the book is useless. WEre they not so complex in themselves, I'd imaging "Unix SMTP mail" would have sections on qmail/postfix/sendmail/exim and the commercial ones (sendmail/stalker,etc). Immediately only 1 of those sections is relevant leaving the others as treekillers. The printing books and backup book tend towards that. From cos at indeterminate.net Thu Oct 23 13:01:04 2003 From: cos at indeterminate.net (John Costello) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:01:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Software for backups In-Reply-To: <20031023183520.GA239@snew.com> References: <200310230345.h9N3jAAE096713@bunrab.catwhisker.org> <20031023183520.GA239@snew.com> Message-ID: <18390.198.182.56.5.1066939264.squirrel@www.indeterminate.net> > Quoting David Wolfskill (david at catwhisker.org): >> At my workplace, one of the things I need to implement is backups (and >> demonstrate an ability to perform restores). I'm somewhat familiar >> with the general issues -- it's something I've dealt with since about >> 1988. And I have a copy of W. Curtis Preston's _Unix Backup and >> Recovery_, and I have started reading it. :-} [snip] > > Vertitas netbackup is a fine tool from a cross platform vendor. I have heard, but haven't seen, that Veritas for UNIX will allow users to restore their own files. On Veritas Netbackup server for Windows, the backup catalog can become corrupted if you shut down the server. That results in a loss of the most recent backup. The problem is that the services need to be shut down before OS shutdown (I expect that data has to be flushed to the disk). After a couple of minutes, the server can be shut down. This occurs under the 3.5 server branch. Version 3.6 may be more stable. On the client side, you can lock down the client so people can't change some or all options. For example, you can lock the exclude/include list and have people put their files in My Documents, but still allow them to cancel backups for those times when they are on a dial-up link. And the client backs up and restores registries. I had to replace a user's hard drive recently, and the data restoration was painless (it helped to have OS images). The backup server dumped data and the registry to the new system (same shell, different hard drive), and all I had to do was clean out a couple of short cuts that no longer applied. > We have stuff that removes certain files before going to a large > HSM system (bigger system than you want). So we don't backup > mp3 files and certain other types of files. It costs too much > to keep them and there may be liability. I'd add to that list .jpgs, .gifs, .exes, .dlls, unless you are running a graphics shop or developing Windows applications. [snip] John From michael at audities.net Thu Oct 23 13:16:46 2003 From: michael at audities.net (Michael Coxe) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:16:46 -0700 Subject: Software for backups (Veritas Netbackup - why?) In-Reply-To: <20031023183520.GA239@snew.com> References: <200310230345.h9N3jAAE096713@bunrab.catwhisker.org> <20031023183520.GA239@snew.com> Message-ID: <20031023131646.L6238@audities.net> I've seen alot of mention of Vertitas Netbackup, not only on lists but in job postings too. My most recent backup server experience was with Legato w/NDNP, and before that the late, great BudTool (codeveloper of NDMP). What has Vertitas Netbackup got over Legato Networker, if anything? I'd really like to know as it seems to be the enterprise backup product of choice right now. - michael From chuck+baylisa at snew.com Thu Oct 23 13:53:39 2003 From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 16:53:39 -0400 Subject: Software for backups In-Reply-To: <18390.198.182.56.5.1066939264.squirrel@www.indeterminate.net> References: <200310230345.h9N3jAAE096713@bunrab.catwhisker.org> <20031023183520.GA239@snew.com> <18390.198.182.56.5.1066939264.squirrel@www.indeterminate.net> Message-ID: <20031023205339.GB18504@snew.com> (I'm on the list, no need to include me). Quoting John Costello (cos at indeterminate.net): > > Quoting David Wolfskill (david at catwhisker.org): > >> At my workplace, one of the things I need to implement is backups (and > >> demonstrate an ability to perform restores). I'm somewhat familiar > >> with the general issues -- it's something I've dealt with since about > >> 1988. And I have a copy of W. Curtis Preston's _Unix Backup and > >> Recovery_, and I have started reading it. :-} > [snip] > > > > Vertitas netbackup is a fine tool from a cross platform vendor. > > I have heard, but haven't seen, that Veritas for UNIX will allow users to > restore their own files. And I really really like NetApps for user files when feasable. I've played restore monkey plenty of times (it's rarely not urgent). I'd used NetApps a lot in applications that needed shared storage and don't deal with users much these days. So when *I* did the stupid thing and accidentally did the ol' "rm *" from the wrong dir and ran to our IT guys and was told ~/.snapshot.$SOMETHING and do it yourself, I was delighted. > I had to replace a user's hard drive recently, and the data restoration > was painless (it helped to have OS images). The backup server dumped data > and the registry to the new system (same shell, different hard drive), and > all I had to do was clean out a couple of short cuts that no longer > applied. That's the BIG test. "My computer fell in the bathtub*. Make it so I can work today." Chuck *bathtubs, run over by a truck|forklift, fell off the roof of my car, etc. Me? I only have them die of old age. Ok, broke a screen once, I don't know how. But I'm typing on a 1999 computer now (replaced a 1993 machine). How much cpu do vi and xterm really need? From chuck+baylisa at snew.com Thu Oct 23 16:19:02 2003 From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 19:19:02 -0400 Subject: Software for backups In-Reply-To: References: <20031023183520.GA239@snew.com> Message-ID: <20031023231902.GF12115@snew.com> Quoting Alvin Oga (alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com): > On Thu, 23 Oct 2003, Chuck Yerkes wrote: > > You *do not* want to require the users to have to take active > > actions to be safe. Your job is to make it so their tool (windows) > > works. Training them all to run be experts about their OS annoys > > them and (more often) just fails. > > yes, it'd be better to do backups w/ user's knowing/doing anything > but that just makes the backup-admin's job painful > you either have to get veritas/legato/etc ... > or you do your own versions and hope you pick up all > the files the users created/installed And have job security forever.... > and if you like the [fast] veritas style network backups ... > - you can also check into inode-based incremental backups Windows doesn't have inodes... > > I've had tons of problems with a "shared folder." Laptops come > > with 60GB drives. 100 laptops won't backup well through that. > > 100 laptops x 60GB each is 6TB of data > - i'm fairly certain you are not blindly backing up > 100 laptops without some "backup rules" being applied > that they dont know about When you leave it to the users, you don't know that re: shared folders. > john> I'd add to that list .jpgs, .gifs, .exes, .dlls, unless you are > john> running a graphics shop or developing Windows applications. > > you cannot just exclude *.exe and *.dll as they might need those > "user installed files" to run their apps and view their data Eh, if the users are installing their own apps, then you have other issues there as well. Common are policies that say "if your machine eats it, we will recover it to our standard build with your data and settings." > - all user installed/downloaded files belong in > my-documents/download or something so you can go find it Except when an app puts them elsewhere. Users don't want to run computers. They have their box that runs spreadsheets or gets their sales data or what not. *We* want to run computers. When they have a nail to put in, they want a hammer. It's simply a tool and making them learn about alloys used to make hammers and the history of hammers is useless to them. > if you want to backup windoze boxes w/o user intervention/knowledge > > linux# mount windoze:\\C /mnt/windoze1 > ( forgot the exact syntax/options ) Bad call: Ooops, they closed it. Now your unix box is hung. Oh, and they're whole harddrive is exported to the world. Don't treat Windows boxes like Unix boxes and you're head will have fewer bruises from the wall. > > linux# find /mnt/windoze1 -mtime -7(days) -print | \ > tar zxcf todaysdate.tgz -T - mtime huh? NTFS supports that well? ... > now you have their windoze backups.. guaranteed > ( done .. just saved the company $1M from buying veritas Wow, you spend a lot for that. $10k/user it would seem. I just was involved in spending about what we pay 1 person for a big roomful of servers. And it's more than saving one person's efforts. Find me the tape that has sharon's data before last week and has this file on it. > ( done... just saved the company from buying 6TB of backups > ( for the 100 laptops w/ 60GB each No, you just bought a lot of disk. 100TB at the least. I don't need ONE backup. I need them every month. I need to be able to reproduce a laptop as it was in July. For 2 years. Work makes me use a Windows box. It's ONLY purpose is to read the 5 notes messages/day I get. The rest of my work is on a real machine. Every couple days, I open the laptop and a window says: "You've missed a scheduled backup, trying in [5] minutes" unless you hit cancel. The disk whirs and the machine slows to a crawl and then it stops doing that. ANd my data is backed up I assume (and since I work with the folks who drive 12 tape robots around, I actually KNOW its backed up). Rolling your own for cross platform backups might save you several thousand dollars. Perhaps enough to cover the productivity lost when 2 or 3 people don't have their data for a couple days. I love dump (tar for Linux with no dump) and AMANDA and spool disks to my tapes for Unix. Since you're already spending several thousand dollars per machine to run Windows (OS cost + software cost + support people (1 person per 15 users overall?), don't cheap out on backups. From chuck+baylisa at snew.com Thu Oct 23 18:03:47 2003 From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 21:03:47 -0400 Subject: Software for backups In-Reply-To: References: <20031023231902.GF12115@snew.com> Message-ID: <20031024010347.GA25826@snew.com> Quoting Alvin Oga (alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com): > > hi ya chuck > > On Thu, 23 Oct 2003, Chuck Yerkes wrote: > > And have job security forever.... > i rather spend my 8-10-16 hr days developing new code to do foo-bar stuff > and not play/worry/wonder with people's backups ... > ( and nobody else needs to play/worry/wonder either cause it works ) And it's a danger to my business and irresponsible of me to hire people who build a one-off system that cannot survive key staff members leaving and where I cannot hire replacements to walk in and be effective quickly. > > When you leave it to the users, you don't know that re: shared folders. > yup... you dont know what they did to their machine either... > if they installed their favorite games and friends virus I do know what we support however. We support the machine you built. We mandate virus checking and patches and run that for you. If you install your favorite games on a company machine and it infects the company's servers, we WILL walk you to the door. Game over. > - 1 unix admin can handle 20, 50, 100, 500 users.. no problem Depends, yes. Hardly true for Windows. > - windoze admin asnwer peoples questions about > - how come it doesnt print today > - how come emails dont go out or come in today Right, cause those same folks when I had unix on their desks never had those questions or problems. > > > - all user installed/downloaded files belong in > > > my-documents/download or something so you can go find it > > Except when an app puts them elsewhere. > > you as the admin, better know where every file is put and > what created it This *is* of course a fantasy in the windows world. Hell, it's a fantasy on Linux (where 50% of files have no man page). > if you spend more than a couple minutes per backup per > machine ... something is seriously wrong > -- enough knocking your head into the wall will > oneday bring some light to the subject .. ?? Your metrics are off. I don't spend 1/10th of a second per email running the servers. I spend my time to fireup the engine, get a head of steam and start running. > if you dont want users to do their "save their important files", > than the system will do it for them .. > - do it at night when its less likely for them > to hit the power switch while you were at lunch or meetings And it's moe likely that the machine is off or away. > > Find me the tape that has sharon's data before last week and has > > this file on it. > > or from a year ago .... no problem .... i keep data for at least > 6mon to a year... and can restore to any particular day COol, but you just said you were doing it for 100 60GB laptops. Now we're up to several hundred terrabytes. > > 5 notes messages/day I get. The rest of my work is on a real machine. > > Every couple days, I open the laptop and a window says: "You've missed > > a scheduled backup, trying in [5] minutes" unless you hit cancel. > > that's dumb and stupid and worthless > - if that machine died, you dont have backups of that machine > since its last successful backup Well, er, duh. You never have backups since the last backup. The sky is blue. > > The disk whirs and the machine slows to a crawl and then it stops > > doing that. ANd my data is backed up I assume (and since I work > > with the folks who drive 12 tape robots around, I actually KNOW its > > backed up). > > i wouldnt trust a bunch of tapes even if you gave me $100K to use > ( separate issue ) /me just came down from a room with roughly 15,000 tapes, all barcoded and cataloged. That's just the onsite storage. For this campus. Welcome to the professional leagues. > data loss is not acceptable under any condition... That's entirely not true. Business cases are clear. You emit these odd little truisms that seem to sit in your view of your reality at the moment (and change throughout your missives). You don't spend $10k to salvage data that you can reproduce for $5k. > - how often you do daily/hourly/per-transaction backups > is a separate issue And when I can spent $30k and have a $35k/year person handle restores, that costs me a lot less than hiring someone for $70k/year to work scripts. This is just the basics. I replaced crash carts of guys gathering 8mm tapes locally attached to servers and put in a secondary ethernet infrastructure (~$100k) to backup to a $100,000, 5 drive tape robot. Put the guys to work doing other stuff and I get return on my investment in 2 years. Savings for not dealing with tapes with scrawled pen noting date/machine/level and instead using a barcode that keys to a database? enormous. Savings for not having wait 3 days while they figure out that they overrote that tape? Measurably Huge. > > c ya > alvin > > short answer for david's original questions... > - get amanda for windoze to send its data to the backup > server ... and let the 3 or 5 backup machines figure it > all out and replicate, encrypt and protect itself ( backups ) And hire a $60,000 of system admin to run those 4 machines and the scripts. Pay that $60k every year. From david at catwhisker.org Thu Oct 23 20:41:48 2003 From: david at catwhisker.org (David Wolfskill) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 20:41:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Software for backups - ms In-Reply-To: <20031023143953.GJ31021@igtc.igtc.com> Message-ID: <200310240341.h9O3fmZp001275@bunrab.catwhisker.org> >Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 07:39:53 -0700 >From: "Paul M. Moriarty" >To: Alvin Oga >Cc: David Wolfskill , baylisa at baylisa.org >Subject: Re: Software for backups - ms >If you've got the $$$ and want to backup Windows machines, look to the >Veritas offerings. We have been extremely pleased with them. Block-level >incrementals rock. Were money no object, the available choices would likely be a bit more numerous. Correspondence to date has pointed out a couple of salient items that I failed to mention: * The employer in question is a start-up. No one working there is getting paid close to a "living wage" yet. Frugality with respect to resource consumption is definitely called for -- and money is such a resource. * Adjusting the environment to suit the product is very unlikely to be acceptable: we intend to provide the backup (and when called for, restore) services for customers. I expect that we will have little influence (and no control) over customers' choices for computing environments. (After all, I couldn't recommend that anyone store valuable information on a box running a Microsoft product, but folks persist in doing it anyway.) Peace, david -- David H. Wolfskill david at catwhisker.org If you want true virus-protection for your PC, install a non-Microsoft OS on it. Plausible candidates include FreeBSD, Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, and Solaris (in alphabetical order). From holland at guidancetech.com Thu Oct 23 08:08:55 2003 From: holland at guidancetech.com (Rich Holland) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 11:08:55 -0400 Subject: Software for backups In-Reply-To: <200310230345.h9N3jAAE096713@bunrab.catwhisker.org> Message-ID: <00ac01c39977$94eb4370$c8964790@hackintosh> On a similar note, what's everyone using to back up Win32 pc's? I have a laptop with 100G of disk on it now. I've been relying on a perl script to walk the trees of files I care about and back up anything that's changed since the last one, just streaming the data to copies on an external USB disk that I can leave at home when I travel. With 100G to deal with though, it's starting to be a suboptimal process (especially if I have checksumming turned on). Thought I'd see what others do. Thanks! Rich -- Rich Holland (913) 645-1950 SAP Technical Consultant print unpack("u","92G5S\=\"!A;F]T:&5R(\'!E References: <200310230345.h9N3jAAE096713@bunrab.catwhisker.org> <18390.198.182.56.5.1066939264.squirrel@www.indeterminate.net> <20031023205339.GB18504@snew.com> Message-ID: <200310231411.41313.samlb@samlb.ws> On Thursday 23 October 2003 1:53 pm, Chuck Yerkes wrote: > And I really really like NetApps for user files when feasable. > I've played restore monkey plenty of times (it's rarely not > urgent). I'd used NetApps a lot in applications that needed > shared storage and don't deal with users much these days. And we at NetApp are Partners with Veritas (and Legato, and . . .), and are behind the NDMP ( Http://www.ndmp.org ) movement -- 3-way backups and all. > So when *I* did the stupid thing and accidentally did the ol' > "rm *" from the wrong dir and ran to our IT guys and was told > ~/.snapshot.$SOMETHING and do it yourself, I was delighted. To be fair: We're not cheap -- you can buy NAS for less than we sell it, but you don't get the 24x7x365 service, automatic dispatch of replacement disks, or SAN from them. YMMV. Sam Bassett -- Technical Global Advisor Network Appliance http://www.netapp.com From alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com Thu Oct 23 15:27:42 2003 From: alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com (Alvin Oga) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 15:27:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Software for backups In-Reply-To: <20031023183520.GA239@snew.com> Message-ID: hi ya chuck On Thu, 23 Oct 2003, Chuck Yerkes wrote: > I'd say your into the commercial realm. Despite alvin's stream of > conciousness ramblings, windows stuffs information into many many > places (registries and the like). :-) > You *do not* want to require the users to have to take active > actions to be safe. Your job is to make it so their tool (windows) > works. Training them all to run be experts about their OS annoys > them and (more often) just fails. yes, it'd be better to do backups w/ user's knowing/doing anything but that just makes the backup-admin's job painful you either have to get veritas/legatos/etc ... or you do your own versions and hope you pick up all the files the users created/installed and if you like the [fast] veritas style network backups ... - you can also check into inode-based incremental backups > I've had tons of problems with a "shared folder." Laptops come > with 60GB drives. 100 laptops won't backup well through that. 100 laptops x 60GB each is 6TB of data - i'm fairly certain you are not blindly backing up 100 laptops without some "backup rules" being applied that they dont know about john> I'd add to that list .jpgs, .gifs, .exes, .dlls, unless you are john> running a graphics shop or developing Windows applications. you cannot just exclude *.exe and *.dll as they might need those "user installed files" to run their apps and view their data - all user installed/downloaded files belong in my-documents/download or something so you can go find it -------- if you want to backup windoze boxes w/o user intervention/knowledge linux# mount windoze:\\C /mnt/windoze1 ( forgot the exact syntax/options ) linux# find /mnt/windoze1 -mtime -7(days) -print | \ tar zxcf todaysdate.tgz -T - linux@ umount /mnt/windoze1 now you have their windoze backups.. guaranteed ( done .. just saved the company $1M from buying veritas ( done... just saved the company from buying 6TB of backups ( for the 100 laptops w/ 60GB each or just use amanada, lot cheaper than veritas and blame amanda for any problems -------- dont forget to have multiple backup servers ... just in case the backup machine dies for the "same reasons" you're backing up client boxes c ya alvin From alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com Thu Oct 23 17:36:59 2003 From: alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com (Alvin Oga) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 17:36:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Software for backups In-Reply-To: <20031023231902.GF12115@snew.com> Message-ID: hi ya chuck On Thu, 23 Oct 2003, Chuck Yerkes wrote: backup methodology is fun stuff ... "doing it" is left to scripts > > yes, it'd be better to do backups w/ user's knowing/doing anything > > but that just makes the backup-admin's job painful > > you either have to get veritas/legato/etc ... > > or you do your own versions and hope you pick up all > > the files the users created/installed > > And have job security forever.... i rather spend my 8-10-16 hr days developing new code to do foo-bar stuff and not play/worry/wonder with people's backups ... ( and nobody else needs to play/worry/wonder either cause it works ) > > > I've had tons of problems with a "shared folder." Laptops come > > > with 60GB drives. 100 laptops won't backup well through that. > > > > 100 laptops x 60GB each is 6TB of data > > - i'm fairly certain you are not blindly backing up > > 100 laptops without some "backup rules" being applied > > that they dont know about > When you leave it to the users, you don't know that re: shared folders. yup... you dont know what they did to their machine either... if they installed their favorite games and friends virus its easy enough to have a ms-script do things users dont want to do or need to know about > Eh, if the users are installing their own apps, then you have other > issues there as well. yup... in my (real life) world .. - users dont have "admin" priviledge - users dont get to install stuff - users put stuff they care about in "my documents" - users dont get to hit the power switch either - 1 unix admin can handle 20, 50, 100, 500 users.. no problem - windoze admin asnwer peoples questions about - how come it doesnt print today - how come emails dont go out or come in today > Common are policies that say "if your machine eats it, we will > recover it to our standard build with your data and settings." that is the test ..... randomly recrate ther pc from bare metal ( or at least a blank disk ) and see where your backup methodology failed or passes > > - all user installed/downloaded files belong in > > my-documents/download or something so you can go find it > > Except when an app puts them elsewhere. you as the admin, better know where every file is put and what created it > Users don't want to run computers. They have their box that > runs spreadsheets or gets their sales data or what not. > *We* want to run computers. yup > > if you want to backup windoze boxes w/o user intervention/knowledge > > > > linux# mount windoze:\\C /mnt/windoze1 > > ( forgot the exact syntax/options ) > > Bad call: > Ooops, they closed it. Now your unix box is hung. dont do it so you get hung .... there are ways to avoid silly problems > Oh, and they're whole harddrive is exported to the world. than that admin should be fired .. on the spot > Don't treat Windows boxes like Unix boxes and you're head > will have fewer bruises from the wall. if you spend more than a couple minutes per backup per machine ... something is seriously wrong -- enough knocking your head into the wall will oneday bring some light to the subject .. ?? if you dont want users to do their "save their important files", than the system will do it for them .. - do it at night when its less likely for them to hit the power switch while you were at lunch or meetings - but you lose a days work till backup occurs at night, so manangerment better know when/how data is backedup > > linux# find /mnt/windoze1 -mtime -7(days) -print | \ > > tar zxcf todaysdate.tgz -T - > > mtime huh? NTFS supports that well? works good enough for me .. > ... > > now you have their windoze backups.. guaranteed > > ( done .. just saved the company $1M from buying veritas > Wow, you spend a lot for that. $10k/user it would seem. I just > was involved in spending about what we pay 1 person for a big roomful > of servers. And it's more than saving one person's efforts. i seen companies spend that kind of crazy $$$ and still fail doing their backups ... ( just depends on management, their backup admin, and computer policies ) > Find me the tape that has sharon's data before last week and has > this file on it. or from a year ago .... no problem .... i keep data for at least 6mon to a year... and can restore to any particular day > > ( done... just saved the company from buying 6TB of backups > > ( for the 100 laptops w/ 60GB each > No, you just bought a lot of disk. 100TB at the least. > I don't need ONE backup. I need them every month. I need to be > able to reproduce a laptop as it was in July. For 2 years. yup... keeping data for a year or two is hard or trivial depending on how you do it ... ( trivial to me ) > Work makes me use a Windows box. my sympathies to you... > It's ONLY purpose is to read the > 5 notes messages/day I get. The rest of my work is on a real machine. > Every couple days, I open the laptop and a window says: "You've missed > a scheduled backup, trying in [5] minutes" unless you hit cancel. that's dumb and stupid and worthless - if that machine died, you dont have backups of that machine since its last successful backup > The disk whirs and the machine slows to a crawl and then it stops > doing that. ANd my data is backed up I assume (and since I work > with the folks who drive 12 tape robots around, I actually KNOW its > backed up). i wouldnt trust a bunch of tapes even if you gave me $100K to use ( separate issue ) > Rolling your own for cross platform backups might save you several > thousand dollars. or a few minutes/hours of work ... jsut depends on management, budget and the backup admin > Perhaps enough to cover the productivity lost > when 2 or 3 people don't have their data for a couple days. nobody lost data in 10-15 yrs ... that i know bout where it was done my way data loss is not acceptable under any condition... - how often you do daily/hourly/per-transaction backups is a separate issue c ya alvin short answer for david's original questions... - get amanda for windoze to send its data to the backup server ... and let the 3 or 5 backup machines figure it all out and replicate, encrypt and protect itself ( backups ) From cos at indeterminate.net Thu Oct 23 23:43:53 2003 From: cos at indeterminate.net (John Costello) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 23:43:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Software for backups In-Reply-To: References: <20031023183520.GA239@snew.com> Message-ID: <16898.198.182.56.5.1066977833.squirrel@www.indeterminate.net> > john> I'd add to that list .jpgs, .gifs, .exes, .dlls, unless you are > john> running a graphics shop or developing Windows applications. > > you cannot just exclude *.exe and *.dll as they might need those > "user installed files" to run their apps and view their data It depends on the environment. If you have a standard image or a standard set of applications, then the .exes and .dlls are not necessary. Reinstall the OS or reinstall the application, then restore the data. There still will be an issue with one-off installations--a single license for Photoshop, for example. If you are providing backup services for external clients, that is a different matter, but I wasn't talking about that situation. There are cases where you can and cannot exclude all of the file types I listed above. John From alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com Thu Oct 23 21:35:18 2003 From: alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com (Alvin Oga) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 21:35:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Software for backups - ms In-Reply-To: <200310240341.h9O3fmZp001275@bunrab.catwhisker.org> Message-ID: hi ya david On Thu, 23 Oct 2003, David Wolfskill wrote: > >If you've got the $$$ and want to backup Windows machines, look to the > >Veritas offerings. We have been extremely pleased with them. Block-level > >incrementals rock. > > Were money no object, the available choices would likely be a bit more > numerous. > > Correspondence to date has pointed out a couple of salient items that I > failed to mention: > > * The employer in question is a start-up. No one working there is > getting paid close to a "living wage" yet. Frugality with respect to > resource consumption is definitely called for -- and money is such a > resource. typical scenario .... - use tape drive and tapes - or - - use large disks (160GB Maxtors for $80 after rebate was atfries) - fully automated ... no human intervention needed, no even to change tapes - backup to different PCs .. - define company policy ... of what gets restored .. at what time c ya alvin From alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com Thu Oct 23 22:37:59 2003 From: alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com (Alvin Oga) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 22:37:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Software for backups In-Reply-To: <20031024010347.GA25826@snew.com> Message-ID: hi ya chuck On Thu, 23 Oct 2003, Chuck Yerkes wrote: > Quoting Alvin Oga (alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com): > And it's a danger to my business and irresponsible of me to > hire people who build a one-off system that cannot survive > key staff members leaving and where I cannot hire replacements > to walk in and be effective quickly. people will always be hired and leaving a company ... it's up to the company's management to figure out how to make smooth transisitions between the onez that left for whatever reason and new ones coming in > I do know what we support however. We support the machine you built. > We mandate virus checking and patches and run that for you. > If you install your favorite games on a company machine and it > infects the company's servers, we WILL walk you to the door. > Game over. good :-) > > you as the admin, better know where every file is put and > > what created it > This *is* of course a fantasy in the windows world. depends on the admin > Hell, it's a fantasy on Linux (where 50% of files have no > man page). depnds on the admin and the man pages doesnt necessarily tell you which apps creates what files, where, how, when and which packages those files came from - you should have a 99% hit rate for which package created what files > > if you spend more than a couple minutes per backup per > > machine ... something is seriously wrong > > -- enough knocking your head into the wall will > > oneday bring some light to the subject .. ?? > > Your metrics are off. depends how you do your backups or manage it - it doesn't mean i have to spend the same time as oyu do to get the same functionality, reliability, performance > I don't spend 1/10th of a second per email running the servers. some emails takes seconds/minutes .. hours of checking in the background for the answers to the emails very very few people can hit the "delete" key in under 0.25 seconds of seeing the email :-) > And it's moe likely that the machine is off or away. makes it hard to backup if the machines is off or away and they dont know whe you are gonna be backing it up and if its traveling, its very likely to get dropped or stelen and come back to the corp office and say, gee, i hope you guys backed it up last night ( when lots of people take those laptops home ) - another separate emails of the merits of laptops or not > COol, but you just said you were doing it for 100 60GB laptops. > Now we're up to several hundred terrabytes. nope... you said 100 laptops at 60GB each ... amd i said, you will have a hard time backing up those 100 laptops unless you start applying some backup methodology and rules where your backups are to last 1-2 years > Well, er, duh. You never have backups since the last backup. > The sky is blue. its amazing what people will want to restore from backups because of a boo-boo or their booboo or somebody's or a process/proceedures booboo > /me just came down from a room with roughly 15,000 tapes, all barcoded > and cataloged. That's just the onsite storage. For this campus. > Welcome to the professional leagues. good have fun playing with tapes... personally... i wouldn't have done it that way ... and when was the last time you checked these tapes... and restored a machine/user to a particular day from bare metal disks or systems > > data loss is not acceptable under any condition... > > That's entirely not true. data that didn't matter if its lost should not occupy backup space for more than a week or a month or a quarter or a year > Business cases are clear. You emit > these odd little truisms that seem to sit in your view of your > reality at the moment (and change throughout your missives). humm ... vice versa too ... but those comments are irrelevant > You don't spend $10k to salvage data that you can reproduce > for $5k. i'm not the one over spending the "backup budgets" in my book and whomever spends $10K to restore/salvage the data that can be reproduced should be shown the door > > - how often you do daily/hourly/per-transaction backups > > is a separate issue > > And when I can spent $30k and have a $35k/year person handle restores, > that costs me a lot less than hiring someone for $70k/year to work > scripts. This is just the basics. you get what you pay for .... or they get away with minimal work and gone home by 5pm .. ( just depends on the company and workers ) some folks work inexpensively compared to others .. others collect huge fees/salaries/bonusess that a $10/hr techie can do better... and vice versa > And hire a $60,000 of system admin to run those 4 machines and the scripts. > Pay that $60k every year. for $60K ... any admin will take that job to baby site 4 machines.. -- geez .... even at microsoft itself, but that's not for me ... c ya alvin From sls at phy.duke.edu Fri Oct 24 11:19:43 2003 From: sls at phy.duke.edu (Shelley L. Shostak) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 14:19:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Software for backups In-Reply-To: <00ac01c39977$94eb4370$c8964790@hackintosh> Message-ID: For Windoze laptops we use Retrospect. For our Windoze servers, we use Legato Networker (the backup server is a Linux box). Shelley On Thu, 23 Oct 2003, Rich Holland wrote: > From: Rich Holland > To: baylisa at baylisa.org > Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 11:08:55 -0400 > Subject: RE: Software for backups > > On a similar note, what's everyone using to back up Win32 pc's? > > I have a laptop with 100G of disk on it now. I've been relying on a perl > script to walk the trees of files I care about and back up anything that's > changed since the last one, just streaming the data to copies on an external > USB disk that I can leave at home when I travel. > > With 100G to deal with though, it's starting to be a suboptimal process > (especially if I have checksumming turned on). Thought I'd see what others > do. > > Thanks! > Rich From ericb at sysdump.com Fri Oct 24 12:21:05 2003 From: ericb at sysdump.com (Eric Balsa) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 12:21:05 -0700 Subject: Software for backups In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200310241221.05870.ericb@sysdump.com> Take a look at the products from http://www.bakbone.com. They are very linux friendly --Eric On Friday 24 October 2003 11:19 am, Shelley L. Shostak wrote: >For Windoze laptops we use Retrospect. For our Windoze servers, we use > Legato Networker (the backup server is a Linux box). > >Shelley > >On Thu, 23 Oct 2003, Rich Holland wrote: >> From: Rich Holland >> To: baylisa at baylisa.org >> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 11:08:55 -0400 >> Subject: RE: Software for backups >> >> On a similar note, what's everyone using to back up Win32 pc's? >> >> I have a laptop with 100G of disk on it now. I've been relying on a perl >> script to walk the trees of files I care about and back up anything that's >> changed since the last one, just streaming the data to copies on an >> external USB disk that I can leave at home when I travel. >> >> With 100G to deal with though, it's starting to be a suboptimal process >> (especially if I have checksumming turned on). Thought I'd see what >> others do. >> >> Thanks! >> Rich From vraptor at employees.org Fri Oct 24 13:55:49 2003 From: vraptor at employees.org (vraptor at employees.org) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 13:55:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SBA In-Reply-To: <16280.6492.970342.825774@komodo.home.wards.net> Message-ID: Caveat: My experience with SCORE and the other folks at the SJ Entrepeneur center was not for anything other than remotely connected to technology (retail store). SCORE folks are hit or miss, depending on what you are trying to do. Remember, SCORE = "Service Corps of Retired Executives", so some of them are only used to working on a large scale. Having said that, and keeping it in mind, you can generally glean good info for your own situation. As for the SJ Entrepeneur Center, I took a couple of their free classes--that was how I found my accountant (he was teaching), and through him a referral to two different lawyers. From what I could tell, they have a very good staff, committed to helping small businesses. The SBA holds a short seminar on getting funding to start your business which I found pretty enlightening. (As in, "Why didn't I got to this before I started my business?") The classes and services are, at the very least, excellent opportunities to network. The bottom line, however, falls to you--getting your planning done first (including an exit strategy) before committing any significant investment. "Significant" means different things depending on your risk tolerance. Lest I discourage too many with my sad story, let's just leave it at "BTDT". Anyone need a UNIX sys admin/help desk manager? If anyone would like to talk to me about class specifics, etc., of the SJEC, drop me an email off-list. =Nadine= On Thu, 23 Oct 2003, William R Ward wrote: >I met with some SCORE folks once. They were helpful but I dropped the ball. > >richard childers / kg6hac writes: >>Have any of the budding entrepreneurs reading these words spent any time >>working with the SBA on their business plans, or any other aspects of >>their business development? >> >>Inquiring minds want to know. >> >> >>-- richard >> >>Richard Childers / Zenior Engineer >>Daemonized Nyetworking Systems >>https://www.daemonized.com >>(415) 759-5571 >> > >-- >William R Ward bill at wards.net http://www.wards.net/~bill/ >----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > PROFESSIONAL PROGRAMMER, CLOSED COURSE. DO NOT ATTEMPT. > From vraptor at employees.org Fri Oct 24 14:08:46 2003 From: vraptor at employees.org (vraptor at employees.org) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 14:08:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Software for backups In-Reply-To: <20031023183520.GA239@snew.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Oct 2003, Chuck Yerkes wrote: >RE: the ORA book. >I'm really not in love with it. ORA has tended to be TOO thorough. >Rather than best practice, they take an expert and make him document >EVERY practice/product. Which means that immediately a majority of >the book is useless. WEre they not so complex in themselves, I'd >imaging "Unix SMTP mail" would have sections on >qmail/postfix/sendmail/exim and the commercial ones (sendmail/stalker,etc). > >Immediately only 1 of those sections is relevant leaving the others >as treekillers. > >The printing books and backup book tend towards that. True. Preston himself would probably argue more towards using 3rd party backup apps--at least that is the impression I got from his LISA tutorials and his BOFs on backups. Though he would tell you that both have problems, but both have strengths as well (right tool for the job question). He gained a lot of credibility with me when he said during one of his LISA classes that he'd changed his mind about DB's and NAS (was against, now is pro), and went on to explain why. Willingness to change your mind as you gain a better understanding of technology and publically stating your changed opinion and backing it up tells me he's not willing to rest on his laurels. I'd recommend his web site for quick overviews of all the free stuff out there, as well as FOMs on NetBackup and Legato, and the usual stuff.. =Nadine= From fscked at pacbell.net Sun Oct 26 08:42:22 2003 From: fscked at pacbell.net (richard childers / kg6hac) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 08:42:22 -0800 Subject: Software for backups: Windows: Samba? In-Reply-To: <20031024010347.GA25826@snew.com> References: <20031023231902.GF12115@snew.com> <20031024010347.GA25826@snew.com> Message-ID: <3F9BF96E.2060507@pacbell.net> It's been a busy week. I'm not sure where this thread started. However, if I grasped the central concept correctly, the question was how to back up a slew of Windows boxes, cheaply. My vote would go for installing a Samba server. Most people just install the server, configure the shares and forget it. But when you install Samba, it comes with a slew of command-line utilities which can be used to, for instance, remotely mount Windows shares on the Samba server, instead. It seems to me that with the correct combination of restrictions, that one could hypothetically share one's entire C: drive, mount it via a Samba command line utility, and then syphon the contents of the C: drive onto a local UNIX filesystem, or directly to a local tape drive. A quick `man -k smb | awk ' { print $1 }'` returns the following, on my home Samba server: findsmb(1) ichsmb(4) iicsmb(4) make_smbcodepage(1) mount_smbfs(8) samba(7), smb(4) smb.conf(5) smbcacls(1) smbclient(1) smbcontrol(1) smbd(8) smbmnt(8) smbmount(8) smbpasswd(5) smbpasswd(8) smbsh(1) smbspool(8) smbstatus(1) smbtar(1) smbumount(8) smbus(4) smbutil(1) testparm(1) testprns(1) Obviously not all of these are Samba-related; however, in just a casual perusal of the results, I see some intriguing leads ... - findsmb(1) sounds like a great tool for auditing networks to insure that everyone on the network is receiving the benefits of the Samba server's automated backup mechanisms. - mount_smbfs(8) looks like an easy path to mapping remote Windows directories and files to local UNIX pathnames, for backup purposes. - smbcacls(1) might be usable to restrict access. - smbclient(1) is a command-line interface that can do a lot of useful things, like remotely copy files, if I recall correctly. - smbcontrol(1), smbsh(1), smbutil(1) and especially smbtar(1) are good candidates for use in a Windows-centric backup mechanism, too. The best thing about such a backup mechanism is that it could be self-serve, IE, if you erased a file accidentally, you can easily recover it, yourself, by browsing the Samba server and copying it off of previous backups. No UNIX administrator needed. Food for thought. Of course, if someone needs this built for them, we're available and interested !! -- richard Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services https://www.daemonized.com (415) 759-5571 From fscked at pacbell.net Sun Oct 26 09:53:50 2003 From: fscked at pacbell.net (richard childers / kg6hac) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 09:53:50 -0800 Subject: RedHat Advanced Server licensing? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F9C0A2E.2090707@pacbell.net> On a tangential note, I spent the past week installing a Linux Virtual Server - four servers, two RAID arrays, one rack - and am very impressed - it's based on Red Hat 9 with HA patches, and was made by Emageon ... a company making a name for itself in the high availability world. Regards, -- richard Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services https://www.daemonized.com (415) 759-5571 Michael T. Halligan wrote: >I was wondering if anybody has done anything with AS? I've got a copy of it I purchased >a few months ago for an oracle server built for a customer who backed out of the deal.. > >I use it to run some of my internal servers.. The licensing was never clear.. It seems >to me that everything in it is GPL, and the extra features are just really tools for >some of the redhat developed tools like tux, piranha, redhat cluster manager, etc.. All >of the programs appear to be GPL though.. > >So it seems to me the only licensing issue is if I use it on other servers that aren't >"licensed", I'm not breaking licensing terms, it's just not supported. I'm asking >because all of the docs that came with it have long since been lost, and all I have >are the original cds and a purchase receipt.. It's been less than easy to get somebody >@ redhat to respond to my calls/e-mails about this. > > >------------------- >Michael T. Halligan >Chief Geek >Halligan Infrastructure Designs. >http://www.halligan.org/ >2250 Jerrold Ave #11 >San Francisco, CA 94124-1012 >(415) 724.7998 - Mobile > > > From fscked at pacbell.net Sun Oct 26 10:15:47 2003 From: fscked at pacbell.net (richard childers / kg6hac) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 10:15:47 -0800 Subject: HTML. Don't Do This. What ... & Why? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031022162808.01eec378@mars.ark.com> References: <20031022065918.GA7141@merlins.org> <3F9019D6.1050508@pacbell.net> <20031022065918.GA7141@merlins.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20031022162808.01eec378@mars.ark.com> Message-ID: <3F9C0F53.1070509@pacbell.net> "Heh! Look at the source code! " As it so happens, I did, before I commented. I don't see anything objectionable; it looks like perfectly good, basic HTML to me. Like I said, I might or might not agree ... but neglecting to be explicit in one's disagreement, doesn't help anyone. (Unless of course, one's agenda is to cheaply acquire a short-lived sense of superiority.) I -still- haven't seen a single person who's got the courage to put their criticism of the referenced HTML, into words that others can read. Allow me to. Apparently there is nothing actually wrong with the HTML, unless you are referring to the absence of META tags; but that is hardly a crime, that is a personal choice ... an option. In the not-too-distant future, search engines will be fast enough and big enough to not need to rely on META tags ... and all this will be an obsolete memory of how things used to be, a long time ago. Seems to me that any HTML is better than no HTML, and instead of slamming someone for not knowing what one knows, one should be able to explain it, so that everyone knows. Otherwise, one is not teaching anyone anything ... and for this reason one is not an authority ... only a critic. Regards, -- richard Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services https://ww.daemonized.com (415) 759-5571 Cheryl Morris wrote: > Heh! Look at the source code! > > Cheryl > >> I might or might not agree ... but why? >> >> It is helpful to me, and, I suppose, others, if someone transmitting >> what they consider to be useful information to me, says, "Don't do >> this", if they also explain exactly what they are referring to, and why. >> >> While I encourage everyone to cultivate an ablity to read between the >> lines, it's not the best way to convey technical information. > > From fscked at pacbell.net Sun Oct 26 09:46:56 2003 From: fscked at pacbell.net (richard childers / kg6hac) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 09:46:56 -0800 Subject: SBA: Getting Top Position On Google In-Reply-To: <16280.6019.780743.512977@komodo.home.wards.net> References: <3F9019D6.1050508@pacbell.net> <16280.6019.780743.512977@komodo.home.wards.net> Message-ID: <3F9C0890.404@pacbell.net> William, I'm sorry, I did not mean to leave the date out; your gentle humor is appreciated. (-: The date of this seminar is tomorrow, Monday, 27 October 2003. I'm kind of surprised that no one else asked, given that this message was posted about two weeks ago. The URL for signing up to attend is www.acteva.com/go/sba, if that is helpful. Regards, -- richard Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services https://www.daemonized.com (415) 759-5571 William R Ward wrote: >I suppose one could just go by there every day at 6pm, hoping it was >the right day, but it would save us a lot of work if you told us which >day/date it was to be held on... > >--Bill. > >richard childers / kg6hac writes: > > >>(Previous comments about Google stock viability aside; hey, it's a free >>class, and other search engines are likely to index the same tags and >>keywords.) >> >>Time: 6:00 PM to 8:30 PM >>Location: SBA Entrepreneur Center, >> 455 Market St., 6th Floor, >> San Francisco, CA, 94105 >> >>Directions: The SBA Entrepreneur Center is located on the corner of Market and First Streets in downtown San Francisco. The closest BART/Muni station is the Montgomery St. Station. Parking is very limited, we strongly recommend using public transportation. >> >> >>Note that prior registration is suggested; www.acteva.com, search for >>'SBA', select the course and register; you'll receive a confirmatory email. >> >> >>-- richard >> >>Richard Childers / Senior Engineer >>Daemonized Networking Services >>https://www.daemonized.com >>(415) 759-5571 >> >> >> > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From camorris at mars.ark.com Sun Oct 26 10:58:25 2003 From: camorris at mars.ark.com (Cheryl Morris) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 10:58:25 -0800 Subject: HTML. Don't Do This. What ... & Why? In-Reply-To: <3F9C0F53.1070509@pacbell.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20031022162808.01eec378@mars.ark.com> <20031022065918.GA7141@merlins.org> <3F9019D6.1050508@pacbell.net> <20031022065918.GA7141@merlins.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20031022162808.01eec378@mars.ark.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20031026105055.019a9ab8@mars.ark.com> Yeah, it looks like perfectly good HTML and it is. BUT, the real question is "What is Google going to index?" - the pictures. You want to contact him? Try "images/contact.gif" and Google yields 12,900 hits. Where is he? Come on, Richard, you're not that dense. At 10:15 AM 10/26/2003 -0800, richard childers / kg6hac wrote: >"Heh! Look at the source code! " > > >As it so happens, I did, before I commented. I don't see anything >objectionable; it looks like perfectly good, basic HTML to me. > >Like I said, I might or might not agree ... but neglecting to be explicit >in one's disagreement, doesn't help anyone. > >(Unless of course, one's agenda is to cheaply acquire a short-lived sense >of superiority.) > > >I -still- haven't seen a single person who's got the courage to put their >criticism of the referenced HTML, into words that others can read. > >Allow me to. > >Apparently there is nothing actually wrong with the HTML, unless you are >referring to the absence of META tags; but that is hardly a crime, that is >a personal choice ... an option. > > >In the not-too-distant future, search engines will be fast enough and big >enough to not need to rely on META tags ... and all this will be an >obsolete memory of how things used to be, a long time ago. > >Seems to me that any HTML is better than no HTML, and instead of slamming >someone for not knowing what one knows, one should be able to explain it, >so that everyone knows. > >Otherwise, one is not teaching anyone anything ... and for this reason one >is not an authority ... only a critic. > >Regards, > >-- richard > >Richard Childers / Senior Engineer >Daemonized Networking Services >https://ww.daemonized.com >(415) 759-5571 > > >Cheryl Morris wrote: > >>Heh! Look at the source code! >> >>Cheryl >> >>>I might or might not agree ... but why? >>> >>>It is helpful to me, and, I suppose, others, if someone transmitting >>>what they consider to be useful information to me, says, "Don't do >>>this", if they also explain exactly what they are referring to, and why. >>> >>>While I encourage everyone to cultivate an ablity to read between the >>>lines, it's not the best way to convey technical information. >> From fscked at pacbell.net Sun Oct 26 12:50:51 2003 From: fscked at pacbell.net (richard childers / kg6hac) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 12:50:51 -0800 Subject: HTML. Don't Do This. What ... & Why? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20031026105055.019a9ab8@mars.ark.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20031022162808.01eec378@mars.ark.com> <20031022065918.GA7141@merlins.org> <3F9019D6.1050508@pacbell.net> <20031022065918.GA7141@merlins.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20031022162808.01eec378@mars.ark.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20031026105055.019a9ab8@mars.ark.com> Message-ID: <3F9C33AB.2090909@pacbell.net> "Come on, Richard, you're not that dense." I humbly admit that I am not that dense. However, others are, I expect. If I ask questions that seem stupid it is because I want to elicit better answers. Or is that stupid? The whole question of estimating another's intelligence is not easy. Particularly for highly intelligent people, where there is a tendency to underestimate everyone else's intelligence until proven otherwise. I guess it was Paul Vixie who said - obviously quoting someone much older and wiser than he is, as, at the time, Paul had not yet had children, and did not know any five-year-olds - that if one couldn't explain it to a five-year-old, that one probably didn't understand it oneself. Although Paul used it as a[n] [intellectually elitist] put-down, at the time, I discerned the kernel of truth within, and have kept this truth close at hand when writing documentation, instructions ... and email to uppermost, and non-technical, management. (Who was this older and wiser person? Based on information and belief, I think it was Brian Reid, Paul Vixie's mentor, and the person who gave him a chance to assume responsibility for maintaining -existing- DNS source code, within DEC's Western Research Lab [aka decwrl.uucp]. But, I digress.) The fact is that I recall search engines existing before the META tag was invented ... I remember when search engine results could be hacked by inserting a lot of keywords into the comments, I remember pages where there were orders of magnitude more comments then there was HTML, just to spam the search engines ... (... Such as the web page of that group of people [all web page programmers], inhabiting a large mansion in Southern California, a saucer cult, who all killed themselves, back in the mid-1990s ... to go join the spaceship hiding behind the comet, the one that had come to take them away, you know. But, again, I digress; I cite them simply as an example of The Way Things Were.) I expect things will continue changing. In order to keep people from getting confused, it is necessary to be specific ... -- richard Cheryl Morris wrote: > Yeah, it looks like perfectly good HTML and it is. BUT, the real > question is "What is Google going to index?" - the pictures. You want > to contact him? Try "images/contact.gif" and Google yields 12,900 > hits. Where is he? > > Come on, Richard, you're not that dense. > > > At 10:15 AM 10/26/2003 -0800, richard childers / kg6hac wrote: > >> "Heh! Look at the source code! " >> >> >> As it so happens, I did, before I commented. I don't see anything >> objectionable; it looks like perfectly good, basic HTML to me. >> >> Like I said, I might or might not agree ... but neglecting to be >> explicit in one's disagreement, doesn't help anyone. >> >> (Unless of course, one's agenda is to cheaply acquire a short-lived >> sense of superiority.) >> >> >> I -still- haven't seen a single person who's got the courage to put >> their criticism of the referenced HTML, into words that others can read. >> >> Allow me to. >> >> Apparently there is nothing actually wrong with the HTML, unless you >> are referring to the absence of META tags; but that is hardly a >> crime, that is a personal choice ... an option. >> >> >> In the not-too-distant future, search engines will be fast enough and >> big enough to not need to rely on META tags ... and all this will be >> an obsolete memory of how things used to be, a long time ago. >> >> Seems to me that any HTML is better than no HTML, and instead of >> slamming someone for not knowing what one knows, one should be able >> to explain it, so that everyone knows. >> >> Otherwise, one is not teaching anyone anything ... and for this >> reason one is not an authority ... only a critic. >> >> Regards, >> >> -- richard >> >> Richard Childers / Senior Engineer >> Daemonized Networking Services >> https://ww.daemonized.com >> (415) 759-5571 >> >> >> Cheryl Morris wrote: >> >>> Heh! Look at the source code! >>> >>> Cheryl >>> >>>> I might or might not agree ... but why? >>>> >>>> It is helpful to me, and, I suppose, others, if someone >>>> transmitting what they consider to be useful information to me, >>>> says, "Don't do this", if they also explain exactly what they are >>>> referring to, and why. >>>> >>>> While I encourage everyone to cultivate an ablity to read between >>>> the lines, it's not the best way to convey technical information. >>> >>> > From jerry at uclink.berkeley.edu Sun Oct 26 20:30:14 2003 From: jerry at uclink.berkeley.edu (Jerome M Berkman) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 20:30:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: LISA & Fire? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The news is really scary about San Diego - how bad is it? I'll planning to fly down on Monday, assuming the airport is open. My wife has asthma, and is thinking of waiting until later in the week. I'd appreciate any info on the conditions anyone can give us. - Jerry Berkman, UC Berkeley, 1-510-547-0985 From jyetter at bluedogs.org Sun Oct 26 21:13:51 2003 From: jyetter at bluedogs.org (Joseph E. Yetter, Jr.) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 21:13:51 -0800 Subject: LISA & Fire? Message-ID: <002201c39c49$307d2780$0201a8c0@gkar> Call the airport. Earlier today planes were not leaving from the bay area for southern California. Only I-5 is open, most other freeways are closed. I'm told the mayor asked people to not go to work if possible. http://news.google.com/news?q=%2B%22san+diego%22+%2Bfire+%2Bfreew ay&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=nn -Joe Yetter > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-baylisa at baylisa.org [mailto:owner-baylisa at baylisa.org]On > Behalf Of Jerome M Berkman > Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 8:30 PM > To: baylisa at baylisa.org > Subject: LISA & Fire? > > > > The news is really scary about San Diego - how bad is it? > I'll planning to fly down on Monday, assuming the airport > is open. My wife has asthma, and is thinking of waiting > until later in the week. > > I'd appreciate any info on the conditions anyone can give us. > > - Jerry Berkman, UC Berkeley, 1-510-547-0985 From jeff at heff.net Sun Oct 26 21:22:58 2003 From: jeff at heff.net (Jeff) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 21:22:58 -0800 Subject: LISA & Fire? References: Message-ID: <002001c39c4a$625f46b0$6201a8c0@citron> All, It's pretty horrible - my family lives down there and said it's one of the worst fires yet. They sent me some pretty horrific images this morning of the smoke clouds. If you look at the shot of the mountains the fire burning furthest away is actually one of the ones on the Mexican border. http://www.heff.net/sd_fire03/ This is the first fire I haven't been down there for. They said the smoke wasn't that bad right now due to high winds but as soon as the wind stops, they are expecting the ash to come raining down. I know in previous fires it was so bad you had to sweep it off your car in the morning. -Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerome M Berkman" To: Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 8:30 PM Subject: LISA & Fire? > > The news is really scary about San Diego - how bad is it? > I'll planning to fly down on Monday, assuming the airport > is open. My wife has asthma, and is thinking of waiting > until later in the week. > > I'd appreciate any info on the conditions anyone can give us. > > - Jerry Berkman, UC Berkeley, 1-510-547-0985 > > > > From fscked at pacbell.net Mon Oct 27 06:41:18 2003 From: fscked at pacbell.net (richard childers / kg6hac) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 06:41:18 -0800 Subject: HTML-encoded mail == BAD In-Reply-To: <20031019201229.0FE806E523@smtp.us2.messagingengine.com> References: <20031018130611.C442-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> <3F917ACC.3060509@pacbell.net> <20031019201229.0FE806E523@smtp.us2.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <3F9D2E8E.9060206@pacbell.net> [Approved with misgivings, despite the poster's apparent inability or unwillingness to admit to understanding a distinction between other's difficulty reading his messages that he persists in posting using HTML markup vs. his self-inflicted choice to cause his messages to be delayed for human intervention every time he posts in HTML markup to a BayLISA-sponsored mailing list. I'm not sure how much clearer I can be on the matter. -- postmaster at baylisa.org] I'm puzzled. If you folks are having trouble reading messages that incorporate HTML, why not use a client that recognizes HTML instead of living in the 19th century? -- richard Piotr T Zbiegiel wrote: >On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 10:39:24 -0700, "richard childers / kg6hac" > said: > > >>Say, refusing postings that have HTML, but including postings that have, >>well, HTML. >> >> > >Hello! McFly! > >I thought Rick had already explained this in another post, but you simply >don't get it. You are encoding your WHOLE MESSAGE in HTML! Have you ever >looked at the raw source of one of your messages? Your messages are >multi-part MIME. (I quote your message headers: 'Content-Type: >multipart/alternative;' ) They include a text *and* an HTML version >effectively doubling the size of your message (That's a sin of bandwidth >to begin with!). > >Most mail readers automatically display the HTML version instead of the >text version. Some readers let your turn this off and others do not. >The point is that a malicious HTML encoded message could cause some >people's mail readers problems. Spammers use it to see which email >addresses actually reach a human who opens the message in their mail >reader. Hell, you could even compromise a machine with the right bit of >HTML and script. Try going to www.crackmonkey.org sometime with IE. > >But I digress, the point is that the list policy is to defer HTML encoded >mail until a human can ensure it is relevant and then propagate it. As >has been pointed out before, this maintenance is done on a volunteer >basis and I doubt there is someone stationed 24/7 to approve your posts. >If you don't like it, you could simply post text-only messages to the >list you would get through immediately. And regarding your charge that >some HTML mail gets propagated and yours doesn't, I've looked through >many recent posts and you seem to be the only one who insists on posting >multi-part encoded messages and then making conspiratory claims that you >are being censored somehow because your message is delayed 90 minutes! >On a Saturday, no less!! I don't know about you, but I'm sure the list >admins have something better to do on Saturday mornings than list >administration. > >I apologize if this explanation of "HTML-encoded e-mail == BAD" is not >comprehensive enough but this argument has been discussed on every >technical list I've ever been part of. If you want more info on the >topic there's www.google.com. But in the end, it's the list policies >that rule and I happen to think (and I'm willing to bet most people on >the list would agreed) there is nothing wrong with them and I am willing >to work within those rules (simple as they are). If you are not, that is >too bad. > >Later > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From claw at kanga.nu Mon Oct 27 07:24:30 2003 From: claw at kanga.nu (J C Lawrence) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:24:30 -0500 Subject: HTML-encoded mail == BAD In-Reply-To: Message from richard childers / kg6hac of "Mon, 27 Oct 2003 06:41:18 PST." <3F9D2E8E.9060206@pacbell.net> References: <20031018130611.C442-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> <3F917ACC.3060509@pacbell.net> <20031019201229.0FE806E523@smtp.us2.messagingengine.com> <3F9D2E8E.9060206@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <18142.1067268270@kanga.nu> On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 06:41:18 -0800 richard childers > wrote: > If you folks are having trouble reading messages that incorporate > HTML, why not use a client that recognizes HTML instead of living in > the 19th century? Have you considered the assertion that HTML for email is just a Bad Idea, and that it Shouldn't Be Done? Have you made any effort to consider why some might reasonably and rationally hold those views, and on what grounds? Have you considered that there are cases where plain text may be significantly better, or to consider what those cases may be? When you have, this thread will cease being a troll. Oh, and I do use a client that handles HTML just fine. I've also deliberately disabled or crippled those supports for the standard privacy and security reasons. -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw at kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From fscked at pacbell.net Mon Oct 27 08:49:15 2003 From: fscked at pacbell.net (richard childers / kg6hac) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 08:49:15 -0800 Subject: What OS & mail client do -you- use? In-Reply-To: <18142.1067268270@kanga.nu> References: <20031018130611.C442-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> <3F917ACC.3060509@pacbell.net> <20031019201229.0FE806E523@smtp.us2.messagingengine.com> <3F9D2E8E.9060206@pacbell.net> <18142.1067268270@kanga.nu> Message-ID: <3F9D4C8B.6080302@pacbell.net> What OS & mail client do -you- use? To the degree that this is an issue faced by the entire community, and to the degree that we are the experts to whom others look for answers, perhaps we should be answering this question, instead of quibbling about it. Having perused the rants and raves on this topic, I'd be interested in knowing who uses what, and why. However, to cut to the chase, it seems like a no-win situation at this point in history; it's not clear to me that there is any one client that will make everyone happy. For a long time I used /usr/ucb/mail. I never used the folder option, but I modified my .mailrc extensively and maintained it over a ten year span or so, with occasional reliance on /usr/bin/mail. More recently I've been using Netscape's products. Netscape's products are available across many platforms and for that reason are attractive to me, as a heterogeneous, bleeding edge kind of guy. It's not possible at this point in time to conduct business with the world at large without having access to a Microsoft platform, with which to compose and review documents in the traditionally accepted rich text format of the late 20th century, which is Microsoft Word ... not, that is, unless one insists on only doing business with zealots of a similar stripe, that is. There are alternatives, of course. Rich Text Format, or RTF. HTML, although it has been getting stretched out of shape, lately, and is no longer merely a hypertext-enabled markup language, is another Open Standard. Most recruiters and contracting firms will accept any one of these three formats - RTF, HTML, or MS Word's proprietary '.doc' format (which, I think, was originally based on RTF). It would be nice to have close integration between the mail and web clients, just in case someone sent me a URL. I might have seen an implementation of mutt(1) that did this, but that may be the only case where a text-based mail client and GUI-based web client were tightly integrated that I know of. I recall, during this period, seeing a lot of inline HTML in the messages I was receiving, and having come to the conclusion that, just perhaps, command-line mail clients would soon be a thing of the past ... useful for diagnosing problems and automating log delivery, but not something that people would choose to use, in most circumstances. I put a lot of thought into this. It was at this time that I started thinking about the implications of font availability. And the fact is that everyone else in the world is using a 16-bit font except for here in the States. Every one of those special characters - umlauts, tildes, accent grave, etc - are based on either extensions to the 8-bit ASCII standard, or a 16-bit standard. One such standard is UniCode. UniCode is supported by FreeBSD and most other operating systems, and applications, today. If one considers inline HTML, and 16-bit character sets, as equally obnoxious, visually speaking - as viewed through the filter imposed by the use of a baroque mail client that relies upon all messages containing only messages composed of American 7-bit ASCII characters - then, it seemed to me, the future was obnoxious. If, on the other hand, one bowed gracefully to the inevitable, and began evaluating GUI-based mail clients that handled multilingual communications properly, instead of rejecting information as garbage, then the future was less problematic. I'm still concerned about cross-platform availability, portability of the data, and compliance of the mail client with existing mail directory standards. I've been looking into Opera recently; I understand it has a mail client, as well. Eudora is also attractive for its support of encryption, however, it is not, to the best of my knowledge, an Open Source product any more. What is your experience? -- richard Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services https://www.daemonized.com (415) 759-5571 PS: It's interesting to consider the explosion of spam in the past few years in a military context; has it ever been considered by anyone that this is actually a subtle attack on the United States' citizens' ability to communicate with one another, and a deliberate attempt to sow seeds of mistrust ... incidentally, crippling the ability of citizens to quickly communicate and organize themselves? Do you know -anyone- who would buy most of the crap you see being supposedly sold? (Note comments below regarding 'disabling and crippling support'; if a hypothetical enemy of the state were actually bringing about this state of affairs for their own reasons, they couldn't ask for better cooperation from the citizens then they are getting, today.) -- richard J C Lawrence wrote: >On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 06:41:18 -0800 >richard childers > wrote: > > > >>If you folks are having trouble reading messages that incorporate >>HTML, why not use a client that recognizes HTML instead of living in >>the 19th century? >> >> > >Have you considered the assertion that HTML for email is just a Bad >Idea, and that it Shouldn't Be Done? Have you made any effort to >consider why some might reasonably and rationally hold those views, and >on what grounds? Have you considered that there are cases where plain >text may be significantly better, or to consider what those cases may >be? > >When you have, this thread will cease being a troll. > >Oh, and I do use a client that handles HTML just fine. I've also >deliberately disabled or crippled those supports for the standard >privacy and security reasons. > > > From mark at bitshift.org Mon Oct 27 09:07:02 2003 From: mark at bitshift.org (mark at bitshift.org) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:07:02 -0800 Subject: What OS & mail client do -you- use? In-Reply-To: <3F9D4C8B.6080302@pacbell.net> References: <20031018130611.C442-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> <3F917ACC.3060509@pacbell.net> <20031019201229.0FE806E523@smtp.us2.messagingengine.com> <3F9D2E8E.9060206@pacbell.net> <18142.1067268270@kanga.nu> <3F9D4C8B.6080302@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20031027170701.GE74410@bitshift.org> On Mon, Oct 27, 2003 at 08:49:15AM -0800, richard childers / kg6hac wrote: > What OS & mail client do -you- use? > Well, since you asked: Mutt. Pine. Netscape 4.7. Mac OS X mail.app. cat /var/spool/mail/$USERNAME. Whatever the app is called on my cellphone. And a host of WinCE and PalmOS apps. Now, then. Let's get to the point, which is: How fast can these apps receive the data contained in one 25-word plaintext email and render it, versus how fast can these apps receive the same 25 words marked up, flashing, bolded, italicized, in twelve different colors and 10 different relative page positions, with a vCard attached? Did I mention that I use these apps in a variety of situations, from home (cable modem) to work (T1), to out-and-about (19.2kbps, 802.11b, 56k, etc.) to field deployment (on the side of a remote mountain, in the middle of a tropical island, with spotty connectivity to the outside world?) Did I mention that I use both POP and IMAP, and don't always have a choice? Now, then. Given the variety of situations in which I must read mail, and the variety of means I choose to read mail (or, in cases where I don't have a choice (e.g., my cellphone), means I am forced to use to read mail), I'll take the 25-word plaintext any day. Let's also not forget that cellphone data usage is per-byte metered in most cases. Your markup costs me money. Start paying me to receive all the extraneous crap that's incidental to the content(!) of the message, and I might change my tune. But not until then. ...and this doesn't even cover things like: What about those not living in the US, and not blessed with flat-rate, high-speed net access? -- Mark C. Langston Sr. Unix SysAdmin mark at bitshift.org mark at seti.org Systems & Network Admin SETI Institute http://bitshift.org http://www.seti.org From pmm at igtc.com Mon Oct 27 09:35:30 2003 From: pmm at igtc.com (Paul M. Moriarty) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:35:30 -0800 Subject: What OS & mail client do -you- use? In-Reply-To: <3F9D4C8B.6080302@pacbell.net> References: <20031018130611.C442-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> <3F917ACC.3060509@pacbell.net> <20031019201229.0FE806E523@smtp.us2.messagingengine.com> <3F9D2E8E.9060206@pacbell.net> <18142.1067268270@kanga.nu> <3F9D4C8B.6080302@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20031027173530.GA12600@igtc.igtc.com> richard childers / kg6hac writes: > What OS & mail client do -you- use? > RH 8.0 & mutt 1.5.4i. Travelling internationally over 50% of the time, I frequently find that the only connection I can establish is 9.6k using my cell phone. From sls at phy.duke.edu Mon Oct 27 09:46:57 2003 From: sls at phy.duke.edu (Shelley L. Shostak) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 12:46:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: What OS & mail client do -you- use? In-Reply-To: <3F9D4C8B.6080302@pacbell.net> Message-ID: Well, at work we have Exchange rammed down our throats, but at least they did not disable IMAP, so I can continue to use pine. I used /usr/ucb/Mail for years until I discovered that Sun's implemenataion had good features but SGIs did not (it did not support refresh while reading mail). So I switched to pine and use that on whatever platform I can. I chose my home ISP based on whether or not I had login access so that I cound use pine. Web based mailers (squirrel and one other that I do not recall) and I did not particularly like them. But then I am still awaiting the re-emergence of monochrome monitors. Except for web browsing, I require only black and white. As for OS, pine on any flavor of unix is great, but the PC version is well.... PC and I could not get my favorite editor (jove) integrated with it. pico is not jove and my fingers have a mind of their own. Shelley On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, richard childers / kg6hac wrote: > From: richard childers / kg6hac > To: baylisa at baylisa.org > Cc: baylisa-chat at baylisa.org > Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 08:49:15 -0800 > Subject: What OS & mail client do -you- use? > > What OS & mail client do -you- use? > > To the degree that this is an issue faced by the entire community, and > to the degree that we are the experts to whom others look for answers, > perhaps we should be answering this question, instead of quibbling about it. > From cat at usenix.org Mon Oct 27 09:43:36 2003 From: cat at usenix.org (cat) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:43:36 -0800 Subject: LISA & Fire? In-Reply-To: <75FFA18C-08A3-11D8-8531-00050287AC91@usenix.org> Message-ID: <17B28496-08A5-11D8-A069-00039354E0D4@usenix.org> >> Hello all, I'm writing from LISA03 to let everyone know that the Conference is on as as scheduled. Yes, the smoke is pretty thick outside but inside is fine. I have bad asthma myself and I'm doing okay. On a personal note to San Diego locals; please accept my concern and hope for a fast end to the fires. Cat Allman USENIX >> >>> From: "Jeff" >>> Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 9:22:58 PM US/Pacific >>> To: "Jerome M Berkman" , >>> >>> Subject: Re: LISA & Fire? >>> >>> All, >>> It's pretty horrible - my family lives down there and said it's one >>> of the >>> worst fires yet. They sent me some pretty horrific images this >>> morning of >>> the smoke clouds. If you look at the shot of the mountains the fire >>> burning >>> furthest away is actually one of the ones on the Mexican border. >>> >>> http://www.heff.net/sd_fire03/ >>> >>> This is the first fire I haven't been down there for. They said the >>> smoke >>> wasn't that bad right now due to high winds but as soon as the wind >>> stops, >>> they are expecting the ash to come raining down. I know in previous >>> fires it >>> was so bad you had to sweep it off your car in the morning. >>> >>> >>> -Jeff >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Jerome M Berkman" >>> To: >>> Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 8:30 PM >>> Subject: LISA & Fire? >>> >>> >>>> >>>> The news is really scary about San Diego - how bad is it? >>>> I'll planning to fly down on Monday, assuming the airport >>>> is open. My wife has asthma, and is thinking of waiting >>>> until later in the week. >>>> >>>> I'd appreciate any info on the conditions anyone can give us. >>>> >>>> - Jerry Berkman, UC Berkeley, 1-510-547-0985 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> > From rolnif at mac.com Mon Oct 27 09:54:10 2003 From: rolnif at mac.com (John Martinez) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:54:10 -0800 Subject: What OS & mail client do -you- use? In-Reply-To: <3F9D4C8B.6080302@pacbell.net> References: <20031018130611.C442-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> <3F917ACC.3060509@pacbell.net> <20031019201229.0FE806E523@smtp.us2.messagingengine.com> <3F9D2E8E.9060206@pacbell.net> <18142.1067268270@kanga.nu> <3F9D4C8B.6080302@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <9128758B-08A6-11D8-997C-000393D15828@mac.com> On Oct 27, 2003, at 8:49 AM, richard childers / kg6hac wrote: > What OS & mail client do -you- use? I use Solaris, Windows XP occasionally, but live almost 90% of the time in Mac OS X these days. I love Mac OS X. Finally, a fully-fledged shell (and in Panther, made it even better) with most of the tools I've come to learn and love. If a tool doesn't exist, I can just port it over, if it's open source. I like FreeBSD ports, so Darwin Ports is right up my alley. Lots of people like Fink. Any way you cut it, it has been my computing home for over two years now (converted from a mish-mash of Windows, Solaris and Linux) and I even enjoy using a desktop GUI again. On Mac OS X, I use the Apple Mail application. I love it. Simple and it gets the job done. It has an acceptable spam filter and the new Mail in Panther got better. I like the integration with the OS X Address Book. The annoying thing is in-line PDF viewing. I'd rather spawn a separate PDF viewer (or Quicktime, or whatever app) rather than have it "previewed" in my mail client's preview window. -john From aeleen at usenix.org Mon Oct 27 10:03:08 2003 From: aeleen at usenix.org (AEleen Frisch) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:03:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: LISA 2003 Message-ID: <200310271803.h9RI38Ar019804@voyager.usenix.org> Hi from San Diego. LISA 2003 is going on in spite of the unfortunate forst fires. The sky is orange, and the air is smokey, so everyone is staying at the hotel and inside, but the comradhsip is great as usual, and the program is excellent. Don't hesitate to come join us! AEleen Frisch LISA 2003 Program Chair From rsr at inorganic.org Mon Oct 27 10:40:13 2003 From: rsr at inorganic.org (Roy S. Rapoport) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:40:13 -0800 Subject: What OS & mail client do -you- use? In-Reply-To: <3F9D4C8B.6080302@pacbell.net> References: <20031018130611.C442-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> <3F917ACC.3060509@pacbell.net> <20031019201229.0FE806E523@smtp.us2.messagingengine.com> <3F9D2E8E.9060206@pacbell.net> <18142.1067268270@kanga.nu> <3F9D4C8B.6080302@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20031027184013.GA6536@nag.inorganic.org> On Mon, Oct 27, 2003 at 08:49:15AM -0800, richard childers / kg6hac wrote: > What OS & mail client do -you- use? What, you mean on the server or the client? My client at work is a work-provided W2K box. My clients at home are a W2K and a WXP box. My server is a Solaris box running Postfix. I read my mail by logging into my server and using an ASCII mail reader like God and Brian intended. One advantage of this is that with screen I have saved state (read mail; leave client running; go to work, screen -dr, and I'm on the same screen). -roy From mark at bitshift.org Mon Oct 27 10:45:46 2003 From: mark at bitshift.org (Mark C. Langston) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:45:46 -0800 Subject: What OS & mail client do -you- use? In-Reply-To: <3F9D4C8B.6080302@pacbell.net> References: <20031018130611.C442-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> <3F917ACC.3060509@pacbell.net> <20031019201229.0FE806E523@smtp.us2.messagingengine.com> <3F9D2E8E.9060206@pacbell.net> <18142.1067268270@kanga.nu> <3F9D4C8B.6080302@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20031027184546.GF74410@bitshift.org> On Mon, Oct 27, 2003 at 08:49:15AM -0800, richard childers / kg6hac wrote: > What OS & mail client do -you- use? > To put what, I hope, will be the final nail in this rotting coffin, I conducted a little experiment. I sent myself two emails, both with the subject "test", and the body, "this is a test.". The first was sent as plain ASCII text. The second, as text+HTML. The results: [10:37:59] >wc test-html.txt 69 181 2111 test-html.txt [10:38:04] >wc test-plain.txt 36 137 1304 test-plain.txt Nearly double the body size, and nearly double the message size in characters (and thus, in bytes). To say EXACTLY THE SAME THING. The only differences between the two messages: 1) The HTML message would probably trip a lot of people's spamfilters. 2) The HTML message would not be read by many people on general principles. 3) The HTML message may be withheld for further (manual|automatic) processing on various mailing lists. 4) The HTML message had centered the body, and changed the font style. ...and that's just for a small, 4-word message. Imagine the impact (I don't have the time or inclination, but I'd wager that this scales linearly) when larger messages are sent, particularly when the HTML is auto-generated (ever take a gander at the abortive attempts various MS products make at autogen'd HTML? It's horribly inefficient.) So, on the basis of raw data transmitted and stored (both en-route and at final destination(s)), the argument can be made that HTML is unnecessary, wasteful and, in certain cases, abusive. -- Mark C. Langston Sr. Unix SysAdmin mark at bitshift.org mark at seti.org Systems & Network Admin SETI Institute http://bitshift.org http://www.seti.org From mark at bitshift.org Mon Oct 27 11:15:51 2003 From: mark at bitshift.org (Mark C. Langston) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 11:15:51 -0800 Subject: What OS & mail client do -you- use? In-Reply-To: <3F9D4C8B.6080302@pacbell.net> References: <20031018130611.C442-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> <3F917ACC.3060509@pacbell.net> <20031019201229.0FE806E523@smtp.us2.messagingengine.com> <3F9D2E8E.9060206@pacbell.net> <18142.1067268270@kanga.nu> <3F9D4C8B.6080302@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20031027191551.GH74410@bitshift.org> On Mon, Oct 27, 2003 at 08:49:15AM -0800, richard childers / kg6hac wrote: > > If one considers inline HTML, and 16-bit character sets, as equally > obnoxious, visually speaking - as viewed through the filter imposed by > the use of a baroque mail client that relies upon all messages > containing only messages composed of American 7-bit ASCII characters - > then, it seemed to me, the future was obnoxious. > > If, on the other hand, one bowed gracefully to the inevitable, and began > evaluating GUI-based mail clients that handled multilingual > communications properly, instead of rejecting information as garbage, > then the future was less problematic. ?????? ...and so forth, brought to you by FreeBSD, mutt, screen, vim, the key CTRL, the key SHIFT, and the key K. No HTML required, no GUI needed. And as far as "integration" goes, when you can "integrate" the behavior of a mail reader running on a box via ssh in another (room|city|continent) with the GUI web browser running on the desktop from which I'm connecting to the remote host to read mail, I might be tempted to care about it. Until then, cut and paste work just as well, if not better, than a mouseclick (particularly since one's brain is more likely to process what is about to be requested by the browser before the request occurs). -- Mark C. Langston Sr. Unix SysAdmin mark at bitshift.org mark at seti.org Systems & Network Admin SETI Institute http://bitshift.org http://www.seti.org From claw at kanga.nu Mon Oct 27 11:53:38 2003 From: claw at kanga.nu (J C Lawrence) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 14:53:38 -0500 Subject: What OS & mail client do -you- use? In-Reply-To: Message from "Mark C. Langston" of "Mon, 27 Oct 2003 11:15:51 PST." <20031027191551.GH74410@bitshift.org> References: <20031018130611.C442-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> <3F917ACC.3060509@pacbell.net> <20031019201229.0FE806E523@smtp.us2.messagingengine.com> <3F9D2E8E.9060206@pacbell.net> <18142.1067268270@kanga.nu> <3F9D4C8B.6080302@pacbell.net> <20031027191551.GH74410@bitshift.org> Message-ID: <6999.1067284418@kanga.nu> On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 11:15:51 -0800 Mark C Langston wrote: > And as far as "integration" goes, when you can "integrate" the > behavior of a mail reader running on a box via ssh in another > (room|city|continent) with the GUI web browser running on the=20 > desktop from which I'm connecting to the remote host to read mail, I > might be tempted to care about it. Until then, cut and paste work > just as well, if not better, than a mouseclick (particularly since > one's brain is more likely to process what is about to be requested by > the browser before the request occurs). I haven't tried this, so warnings about gross arm-waving and caveats come in advance: There is a little tool which purports to extend bog-standard Xterms such that it auto-recognises and buttonises URL strings. Now I'm guessing that if you grabbed that, ran it against the XTerm in question, and then ran ssh/screen et all within that Xterm, that you could get URLs in text on a remote host invoking a local browser on click. All of course untested, unverified, and without me actually remembering the name or citation to the tool in question 'coz I don't use it. Such exercises are left for the motivated reader. This advice is worth and will cost you one unvested option in a defunct startup of your choice. -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw at kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From jxh at jxh.com Mon Oct 27 13:04:04 2003 From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:04:04 -0600 Subject: What OS & mail client do -you- use? In-Reply-To: <3F9D4C8B.6080302@pacbell.net> References: <20031018130611.C442-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> <3F917ACC.3060509@pacbell.net> <20031019201229.0FE806E523@smtp.us2.messagingengine.com> <3F9D2E8E.9060206@pacbell.net> <18142.1067268270@kanga.nu> <3F9D4C8B.6080302@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <2147483647.1067267044@[10.9.18.6]> > What OS & mail client do -you- use? Mulberry. Use to be exmh (I miss exmh: it won't do IMAP). Mulberry ran on all the several platforms I was using at the time (MacOS 9, Linux x86, LinuxPPC(!), and Solaris). And, of course, now, MacOS X. (And Windows, but I've never tried it there.) It's a competent, fully-capable IMAP client, though a bit idiosyncratic in the user interface. -- Since the topic has come around, I can't resist plugging my specialty email hosting business: http://www.imap-partners.net/ . Sendmail or postfix or whatever is fine, if you want to support it yourself. I did, for a long time. Many on this list are not good candidates to be my customers, because they still enjoy doing this themselves, for good and sufficient reasons. (Don't bother explaining: I understand.) But if you, or your employers or clients, are thinking of spending that time doing something else, yet you want long-term stability on the server end, talk to me. From claw at kanga.nu Mon Oct 27 14:28:04 2003 From: claw at kanga.nu (J C Lawrence) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:28:04 -0500 Subject: What OS & mail client do -you- use? In-Reply-To: Message from Jim Hickstein of "Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:04:04 CST." <2147483647.1067267044@[10.9.18.6]> References: <20031018130611.C442-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> <3F917ACC.3060509@pacbell.net> <20031019201229.0FE806E523@smtp.us2.messagingengine.com> <3F9D2E8E.9060206@pacbell.net> <18142.1067268270@kanga.nu> <3F9D4C8B.6080302@pacbell.net> <2147483647.1067267044@[10.9.18.6]> Message-ID: <19450.1067293684@kanga.nu> On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:04:04 -0600 Jim Hickstein wrote: > Use to be exmh (I miss exmh: it won't do IMAP). Aye, I like the benefits of IMAP, but have never been able to persuade myself that leaving nmh/exmh/MH-E/mew just to get IMAP would be anything but a losing trade. There's just too much of the MH model which assumes local file store and one file per message. Its explicit in the model. -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw at kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From jxh at jxh.com Mon Oct 27 15:41:23 2003 From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:41:23 -0600 Subject: What OS & mail client do -you- use? In-Reply-To: <19450.1067293684@kanga.nu> References: <20031018130611.C442-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> <3F917ACC.3060509@pacbell.net> <20031019201229.0FE806E523@smtp.us2.messagingengine.com> <3F9D2E8E.9060206@pacbell.net> <18142.1067268270@kanga.nu> <3F9D4C8B.6080302@pacbell.net> <2147483647.1067267044@[10.9.18.6]> <19450.1067293684@kanga.nu> Message-ID: <2147483647.1067276483@[10.9.18.6]> >> Use to be exmh (I miss exmh: it won't do IMAP). > > Aye, I like the benefits of IMAP, but have never been able to persuade > myself that leaving nmh/exmh/MH-E/mew just to get IMAP would be anything > but a losing trade. Wellllllll....... I once whined about this ("why doesn't somebody make exmh do IMAP?"), and came away with the impression that the best minds in the world had looked at it, and decided "no bid". But I'm not going to give up that easily. The folder display, the folder cache, and two features I call "spatial refile" and "z-axis nesting" (you exmh users know what I mean) are just too valuable to be lost to history like that. Once you've seen them, nothing else is even tolerable. (See slogan #7.) I can do without MH per se, if I have exmh. A couple of colleagues of mine have concieved of a new IMAP client library (replacing the spaghetti in the UW c-client), which would do most of the hard work of managing a local cache -- which is what disconnected mode needs -- and of course the server connections. And then hacking the tcl/tk to talk to it might be within reach. Nothing is firm, yet, except my determination. We're not ready to solicit help, but it will have to get to that stage eventually. Stay tuned. From claw at kanga.nu Mon Oct 27 16:20:41 2003 From: claw at kanga.nu (J C Lawrence) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 19:20:41 -0500 Subject: What OS & mail client do -you- use? In-Reply-To: Message from Jim Hickstein of "Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:41:23 CST." <2147483647.1067276483@[10.9.18.6]> References: <20031018130611.C442-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> <3F917ACC.3060509@pacbell.net> <20031019201229.0FE806E523@smtp.us2.messagingengine.com> <3F9D2E8E.9060206@pacbell.net> <18142.1067268270@kanga.nu> <3F9D4C8B.6080302@pacbell.net> <2147483647.1067267044@[10.9.18.6]> <19450.1067293684@kanga.nu> <2147483647.1067276483@[10.9.18.6]> Message-ID: <28383.1067300441@kanga.nu> On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:41:23 -0600 Jim Hickstein wrote: >>> Use to be exmh (I miss exmh: it won't do IMAP). >> Aye, I like the benefits of IMAP, but have never been able to >> persuade myself that leaving nmh/exmh/MH-E/mew just to get IMAP would >> be anything but a losing trade. > Wellllllll....... I once whined about this ("why doesn't somebody > make exmh do IMAP?"), and came away with the impression that the best > minds in the world had looked at it, and decided "no bid". Quite, as exmh isn't a mail app, but is just a shell over MH/nmh, the level of work required would be roughly equivalent to writing a new MUA. > A couple of colleagues of mine have concieved of a new IMAP client > library (replacing the spaghetti in the UW c-client), which would do > most of the hard work of managing a local cache -- which is what > disconnected mode needs -- and of course the server connections. And > then hacking the tcl/tk to talk to it might be within reach. Nothing > is firm, yet, except my determination. Have a look at the degree to which MH assumes a local file store in the MH format, and that thus exmh assumes and explicitly relies on the same thing. I used to think it would be easy to move it over as well. Then I started looking at it in detail. > We're not ready to solicit help, but it will have to get to that stage > eventually. Stay tuned. The exmh lists are recommended: exmh-[a-z]*@redhat.com -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw at kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From scott at sonic.net Mon Oct 27 17:25:39 2003 From: scott at sonic.net (Scott Doty) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:25:39 -0800 Subject: What OS & mail client do -you- use? In-Reply-To: <20031027191551.GH74410@bitshift.org> References: <20031018130611.C442-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> <3F917ACC.3060509@pacbell.net> <20031019201229.0FE806E523@smtp.us2.messagingengine.com> <3F9D2E8E.9060206@pacbell.net> <18142.1067268270@kanga.nu> <3F9D4C8B.6080302@pacbell.net> <20031027191551.GH74410@bitshift.org> Message-ID: <20031028012539.GB10716@sonic.net> On Mon, Oct 27, 2003 at 11:15:51AM -0800, Mark C. Langston wrote: > And as far as "integration" goes, when you can "integrate" the > behavior of a mail reader running on a box via ssh in another > (room|city|continent) with the GUI web browser running on the > desktop from which I'm connecting to the remote host to read mail, > I might be tempted to care about it. Until then, cut and paste > work just as well, if not better, than a mouseclick (particularly > since one's brain is more likely to process what is about to be > requested by the browser before the request occurs). I too use mutt, both locally on my workstation at work and remotely through ssh to said workstation. I find it's threading and searching capabilities unparalleled in the MUA landscape. It is handy, though, to be able to pick a url out of a message -- for that, I have ^u bound to pipe a message to urlview, which detects and displays the url's in the message. From there, I can pick a URL to display, which is passed to my url_handler.sh script. That script runs: "/usr/bin/netscape -remote 'openURL($URL)'" ...either on my work machine, or home machine via ssh, depending on my $DISPLAY variable. This is especially handy for long url's that wrap. And BTW, I would run screaming into the night if someone tried to turn my mail client into a web browser. (I do believe the gentleman who wants to send me HTML to read in my mail client has way too much time on his hands.) -Scott From mark at bitshift.org Mon Oct 27 17:39:25 2003 From: mark at bitshift.org (Mark C. Langston) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:39:25 -0800 Subject: What OS & mail client do -you- use? In-Reply-To: <20031028012539.GB10716@sonic.net> References: <20031018130611.C442-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> <3F917ACC.3060509@pacbell.net> <20031019201229.0FE806E523@smtp.us2.messagingengine.com> <3F9D2E8E.9060206@pacbell.net> <18142.1067268270@kanga.nu> <3F9D4C8B.6080302@pacbell.net> <20031027191551.GH74410@bitshift.org> <20031028012539.GB10716@sonic.net> Message-ID: <20031028013925.GI74410@bitshift.org> On Mon, Oct 27, 2003 at 05:25:39PM -0800, Scott Doty wrote: > > "/usr/bin/netscape -remote 'openURL($URL)'" > > ...either on my work machine, or home machine via ssh, depending on my > $DISPLAY variable. Sorry, I should have been more specific: I don't tunnel X11 via ssh. In this day and age of, "consumers don't need any backhaul bandwidth", coupled with some of the spotty connectivity I deal with from time to time, one could argue that a curses interface is already pushing one's luck. I should also have been clearer: I don't mind (and, in fact, prefer) cut'n'paste as the means to move URLs to browsers. As I mentioned before, the person doing the c'n'p is more likely to engage his brain before actually loading the page in this manner. This blind "ooooh! Look! A shiny new link in my email! Must...click...now!" behavior is almost as troublesome as MUAs that do silly things like autoload images and act on script directives. I'm solidly behind another poster: I'm waiting for monochrome terminals to make a comeback. With the exception of web browsing, gaming (sorry; I'm an addict), and code editing, I can do without color (though I might miss the ANSI color capabilities of mutt and slrn). In fact, except for web browsing and gaming, I can do without a GUI entirely. And occasionally even when browsing or gaming. And doing things like piping an xterm across tiny pipes and long distances is rather wasteful, IMO, when you can do the same thing in the shell you just used to invoke your xterm, unless your goal is to run a GUI app from the remote machine. And at that point, one could argue X11 isn't a good protocol to achieve that end. HTML was, is, and should always be about information display. Whereas email was, is, and should always be about communication. If you need the former to achieve the latter, you're either not doing the latter properly, or using the wrong medium. -- Mark C. Langston Sr. Unix SysAdmin mark at bitshift.org mark at seti.org Systems & Network Admin SETI Institute http://bitshift.org http://www.seti.org From chuck+baylisa at snew.com Mon Oct 27 18:22:32 2003 From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:22:32 -0500 Subject: LISA & Fire? In-Reply-To: <17B28496-08A5-11D8-A069-00039354E0D4@usenix.org> References: <75FFA18C-08A3-11D8-8531-00050287AC91@usenix.org> <17B28496-08A5-11D8-A069-00039354E0D4@usenix.org> Message-ID: <20031028022232.GC25670@snew.com> Quoting cat (cat at usenix.org): > >> > Hello all, > > I'm writing from LISA03 to let everyone know that the Conference is on > as as scheduled. Yes, the smoke is pretty thick outside but inside is > fine. I have bad asthma myself and I'm doing okay. I just came UP from that area (a wedding) and the air is chunky (ashes in it) and the sky is a bit orange depending on where you are. Me? I wouldn't go jogging. Were I outside all day, I might be masked. If I had lung issues, I might bring a basic face mask (eg. from hardware store) if stuck outside at the airport or wherever. The planes were late - seems the fire caused the long distance air traffic folk to evacuate, so the planes are guided from afar and spread 40 miles rather than 5 miles. These folks then hand off to the local tower folk. In Newport/Huntington/Laguna beach, it was chunky and chilly (not much sun). In San Bernadino/Riverside area it was hazy and ashy and scary to fly over (the view, not any personal danger). Keep in mind that the news folks are focused on one area with "good" visuals. They may interview people - but the dull people who say "Yeah, the fires are bad, but it's not really affecting my life directly" end up on the editing floor. They'll keep the dramatic person who may live 40 miles from the fire, and not know of anyone affected, but some how its personal with a TV camera in their face. I'd think that the region could use the money that LISA and conferences bring in. I'd think that USENIX (and SAGE) could use the money that LISA brings in. So you get to support a battered town and your favorite group. Additionally: Were this NYC, it would be like having fires in Long Island or Westchester. The city would certainly notice it, but it's not like 1.2 million people are cowering in their homes. Lots of LISA people end up in the hotel most of the time ANYWAY. They will be almost entirely unaffected. If you're going out and going jogging, perhaps rethink. This weekend, the wind was from the sea in the mornings. It was clearer then. But sat photo's show lots of smoke over the ocean. From scott at sonic.net Mon Oct 27 21:47:19 2003 From: scott at sonic.net (Scott Doty) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:47:19 -0800 Subject: What OS & mail client do -you- use? In-Reply-To: <20031028013925.GI74410@bitshift.org> References: <20031018130611.C442-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> <3F917ACC.3060509@pacbell.net> <20031019201229.0FE806E523@smtp.us2.messagingengine.com> <3F9D2E8E.9060206@pacbell.net> <18142.1067268270@kanga.nu> <3F9D4C8B.6080302@pacbell.net> <20031027191551.GH74410@bitshift.org> <20031028012539.GB10716@sonic.net> <20031028013925.GI74410@bitshift.org> Message-ID: <20031028054719.GA14570@sonic.net> On Mon, Oct 27, 2003 at 05:39:25PM -0800, Mark C. Langston wrote: > On Mon, Oct 27, 2003 at 05:25:39PM -0800, Scott Doty wrote: > > > > "/usr/bin/netscape -remote 'openURL($URL)'" > > > > ...either on my work machine, or home machine via ssh, depending on my > > $DISPLAY variable. > > > Sorry, I should have been more specific: I don't tunnel X11 via ssh. Well, this is minimal tunnelling via ssh. It is commanding the browser, running on whatever machine I'm physically sitting at, to load the requested URL. In other words, it remote-controls the browser on the local machine. This can be done from any machine with netscape/mozilla/whatever, and with X11 forwarding set up. -Scott From jimd at starshine.org Mon Oct 27 21:21:48 2003 From: jimd at starshine.org (jimd at starshine.org) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 05:21:48 +0000 Subject: What OS & mail client do -you- use? In-Reply-To: <3F9D4C8B.6080302@pacbell.net> References: <20031018130611.C442-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> <3F917ACC.3060509@pacbell.net> <20031019201229.0FE806E523@smtp.us2.messagingengine.com> <3F9D2E8E.9060206@pacbell.net> <18142.1067268270@kanga.nu> <3F9D4C8B.6080302@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20031028052148.GE25200@mercury.starshine.org> On Mon, Oct 27, 2003 at 08:49:15AM -0800, richard childers / kg6hac wrote: > What OS & mail client do -you- use? Mutt 1.5.4i (2003-03-19) under Screen version 4.00.01 (FAU) 18-Sep-03 under Debian GNU/Linux x86. Mail gets to me via fetchmail release 6.2.4+NTLM+SDPS+SSL+NLS (over SSL) through procmail v3.22 2001/09/10 and SpamAssassin version 2.60. That's all on the client side. The server is running Debian GNU/Linux x86, and ipopd-ssl (4:2001adebian-6) as the mail storage agent and Postfix 1.1.11-0.woody as the MTA. I generally access my screen session through an xterm (either local to that system, or via ssh (OpenSSH_3.6.1p2 Debian 1:3.6.1p2-9) from a nearby KNOPPIX machine, or re-attached from any handy (trustworthy?) system. (I use the term "trustworthy" with considerable trepidation on a list like this :) -- in this case it mostly means from systems that are controlled by people who could come into my house and pysically access those systems, or client systems that I installed and have maintained myself. Even at that I recognize the inherent risks of such remote access; so I do think twice when I do it). > To the degree that this is an issue faced by the entire community, and > to the degree that we are the experts to whom others look for answers, > perhaps we should be answering this question, instead of quibbling about it. > Having perused the rants and raves on this topic, I'd be interested in > knowing who uses what, and why. I use my collection of tools because they suit me. I changed from elm to MH, then to mh-e (under xemacs --- which was also run under screen), then to mutt. My old elm folders were incorporated (using the MH inc command) into MH folders years ago. Thus they remained usable under mh-e; and under mutt. I used to use glimpse to index my mail folders (and search it, of course). However glimpse has not been maintained (at least no free version that I know of) and I rarely need to search the older archives. My mail folders have been maintained in this way for about 9 years. Obviously the whole system is the result of years of evolution. I rarely mess with it; adding spam assassin only about two months ago, switching to ipopd-ssl only six months ago (using unencrypted POP over the house LAN and ssh tunnels from remote before then). mutt was about three years ago, mh-e was six or seven. procmail has always been used as the LDA. Postfix replaced sendmail a few years ago as well. The folders (and my entire home directory tree) have been transplanted several times over the years (rsync over ssh from the old machine or hard drive to its replacement). It's sporadically backed up via rsync and occasionally (portions) to CDR. It currently represents: 136668 messages in 105 folders (plus some miscellany that's migrated into mbox format or still archived there in). That's 948MB of archives over the last 9 years. > However, to cut to the chase, it seems like a no-win situation at this > point in history; it's not clear to me that there is any one client that > will make everyone happy. It is abundantly clear that no one mail user agent, editor or other non-trivial tool will satisfy all users. To paraphrase Emerson: foolish standardization is the hobgoblin of little minds. (*) > For a long time I used /usr/ucb/mail. I never used the folder option, > but I modified my .mailrc extensively and maintained it over a ten year > span or so, with occasional reliance on /usr/bin/mail. > More recently I've been using Netscape's products. Netscape's products > are available across many platforms and for that reason are attractive > to me, as a heterogeneous, bleeding edge kind of guy. I demand a curses capable interface and like to be able to back off gracefully even to a tty if need be. Thus GUIs are out. I also just don't like them for primarily textual information. > It's not possible at this point in time to conduct business with the > world at large without having access to a Microsoft platform, with which > to compose and review documents in the traditionally accepted rich text > format of the late 20th century, which is Microsoft Word ... not, that > is, unless one insists on only doing business with zealots of a similar > stripe, that is. I don't maintain access to any MS Windows based OS. I've got a copy of Win '95 under VMWare on my lap top that has run less then 10 times in the last three years; and not at all in the last year. I suppose either doing the impossible or I'm not conducting business except with "zealots" (or perhaps your premise is flawed). > There are alternatives, of course. Rich Text Format, or RTF. HTML, > although it has been getting stretched out of shape, lately, and is no > longer merely a hypertext-enabled markup language, is another Open Standard. > Most recruiters and contracting firms will accept any one of these three > formats - RTF, HTML, or MS Word's proprietary '.doc' format (which, I > think, was originally based on RTF). I still provide them with text and a link to the HTML and PDF versions of my resume (which is maintain in LaTeX). > It would be nice to have close integration between the mail and web > clients, just in case someone sent me a URL. I might have seen an > implementation of mutt(1) that did this, but that may be the only case > where a text-based mail client and GUI-based web client were tightly > integrated that I know of. elm and pine allow one to pipe a message into an arbitrary filter. Scripts like "urls" and "urlview" used to be commonly available to function as a filter, parse for URLs and offer a selection menu in Lynx. It would be trivial to update these to call on the browser of one's choice, including the -remote options of Netscape/Mozilla. Naturally my copy of mutt gives me quick access to w3m. > I recall, during this period, seeing a lot of inline HTML in the > messages I was receiving, and having come to the conclusion that, just > perhaps, command-line mail clients would soon be a thing of the past ... > useful for diagnosing problems and automating log delivery, but not > something that people would choose to use, in most circumstances. I'll stay in the "zealot" category if that's your view. > I put a lot of thought into this. It was at this time that I started > thinking about the implications of font availability. And the fact is > that everyone else in the world is using a 16-bit font except for here > in the States. Every one of those special characters - umlauts, tildes, > accent grave, etc - are based on either extensions to the 8-bit ASCII > standard, or a 16-bit standard. > One such standard is UniCode. UniCode is supported by FreeBSD and most > other operating systems, and applications, today. Support for international characters sets is orthogonal to HTML. > If one considers inline HTML, and 16-bit character sets, as equally > obnoxious, visually speaking - as viewed through the filter imposed by > the use of a baroque mail client that relies upon all messages > containing only messages composed of American 7-bit ASCII characters - > then, it seemed to me, the future was obnoxious. > If, on the other hand, one bowed gracefully to the inevitable, and began > evaluating GUI-based mail clients that handled multilingual > communications properly, instead of rejecting information as garbage, > then the future was less problematic. I consider egregious use of these to be obnoxious. > I'm still concerned about cross-platform availability, portability of > the data, and compliance of the mail client with existing mail directory > standards. > I've been looking into Opera recently; I understand it has a mail > client, as well. > Eudora is also attractive for its support of encryption, however, it is > not, to the best of my knowledge, an Open Source product any more. > What is your experience? I don't believe it was ever "open source." I seem to recall that Eudora was shareware or freely distributable and usable, but thta the sources were not provided. However, I've never used it. > PS: It's interesting to consider the explosion of spam in the past few > years in a military context; has it ever been considered by anyone that > this is actually a subtle attack on the United States' citizens' ability > to communicate with one another, and a deliberate attempt to sow seeds > of mistrust ... incidentally, crippling the ability of citizens to > quickly communicate and organize themselves? > Do you know -anyone- who would buy most of the crap you see being > supposedly sold? While I do compare spam to a "DDoS" (distributed denial of service) it is far more plausible to attribute it to widespread personal greed and rapaciously short-sighted self-interest than to imagine a deliberate, co-ordinated conspiracy. So it is with most conspiracy theories. Occam's razor simply suggests that we'd be wasting our time looking for the Illuminati behind them. > (Note comments below regarding 'disabling and crippling support'; if a > hypothetical enemy of the state were actually bringing about this state > of affairs for their own reasons, they couldn't ask for better > cooperation from the citizens then they are getting, today.) >>>If you folks are having trouble reading messages that incorporate >>>HTML, why not use a client that recognizes HTML instead of living in >>>the 19th century? When I read this earlier in this thread my visceral reaction was: Fuck you, Childers! ... I still feel that way. You have alot of gall casting aspersions about our "backwardness" (and public impugning the competence and integrity of member of our board) in response to a policy that you don't like. I prefer for the board to manage the list almost exactly as they have. It's their right. Their reasons suit me just fine and I see a consensus that the rest of the membership has either agreed with them or abstained by their silence. I'm actually mildly ashamed of myself for even getting drawn into this thread again and should really delete all follow-ups to it unread. However, my fascination and even my irritation with it, while morbid is not wholly unhealthy. * (A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. --- Ralph Waldo Emerson, "Self Reliance", 1841 http://www.emersoncentral.com/selfreliance.htm ) [I actually read this essay online while writing this. In the context of this quote he seems to be suggestion that it is foolish to persist in a set of beliefs, behaviors or opinions purely to avoid self- contradiction --- or contradiction with established authorities. He's echoing Shakespeare's pithier sentiments "To thine ownself be true" The paragraph that starts with this epigram ends with one that is almost as well known: "To be great is to be misunderstood." The writing is noticeably archaic and stilted; and there were a few references I had to look up; such as Andes and Himmaleh (a odd being a spelling of Himalaya; thus a metaphor to formidible challenges), Alexandrian stanza --- a particular form of iambic hexameter, and "thunder in Chatham's voice" --- which I believe is an oblique reference Thomas Payne; who was born in Chatham, Ontario. Makes me feel ignorant --- but reaffirms my fondness Google!]. -- Jim Dennis From fscked at pacbell.net Mon Oct 27 07:09:19 2003 From: fscked at pacbell.net (richard childers / kg6hac) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 07:09:19 -0800 Subject: A Simple Solution For Wanna-Be Censors Message-ID: <3F9D351F.7050801@pacbell.net> It's not that hard to stop "unsolicited" posts to BayLISA. It's really simple. Paid subscriptions. If you want to subscribe to BayLISA, you need to give BayLISA money, on a yearly basis. This would easily filter out all the spam, so that one did not need to put any filtering mechanisms in place. It would also filter out all the undesirables ... at least, until they showed up and coughed up some cash, putting the organization's officers in the uncomfortable position of rejecting membership of certain applicants, based upon ... what? Political affiliation? Lack of political affiliation? Eye color? I'm sure something can be devised; although I don't know if it would stand up in court, or if it would result in the organization being disbanded, for inability to follow California laws. Of course, there are some dangers associated with this plan. One possible outcome is that everyone will agree that it's not worth the money being demanded by BayLISA's keepers, to subscribe; there is no real value here, just gossip and back-slapping and the like. A second possible outcome is that everyone will pony up the cash and nothing will change, except that there will be no basis for excluding anyone, as everyone is a paying guest. Boy, wouldn't -that- be annoying. A third possibility is that this #1 possibility has already happened, and the result was so disappointing that the organization reverted to its original, so-called 'free' posture (where 'free' is redefined, as needed) ... and this is why no one has suggested it as a solution ... because they tried that five years ago, and it failed miserably. Regards, Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services https://www.daemonized.com (415) 759-5571 From rsr at inorganic.org Tue Oct 28 10:43:44 2003 From: rsr at inorganic.org (Roy S. Rapoport) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 10:43:44 -0800 Subject: A Simple Solution For Wanna-Be Censors In-Reply-To: <3F9D351F.7050801@pacbell.net> References: <3F9D351F.7050801@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20031028184344.GA104@nag.inorganic.org> On Mon, Oct 27, 2003 at 07:09:19AM -0800, richard childers / kg6hac wrote: > It's not that hard to stop "unsolicited" posts to BayLISA. [...] > It would also filter out all the undesirables ... at least, until they > showed up and coughed up some cash, putting the organization's officers > in the uncomfortable position of rejecting membership of certain > applicants, based upon ... what? Political affiliation? Lack of > political affiliation? Eye color? I'm sure something can be devised; [...] > A second possible outcome is that everyone will pony up the cash and > nothing will change, except that there will be no basis for excluding > anyone, as everyone is a paying guest. Boy, wouldn't -that- be annoying. Richard, I say this almost sincerely: What are you *ON*? I mean, seriously, the degree to which you seem to spend your time and energy fighting the BayLISA Secret Masonic Cabal's censorship of all our posts suggests that either my worldview is horribly stunted (and, living in it, I simply cannot accept that as the case without more -- hell, *ANY* -- proof) or, potentially, you are just on some really great drugs. So what are you on, is it legal, and can I get me some of that? -roy From chuck+baylisa at snew.com Tue Oct 28 10:48:29 2003 From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 13:48:29 -0500 Subject: What OS & mail client do -you- use? In-Reply-To: <3F9D4C8B.6080302@pacbell.net> References: <20031018130611.C442-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> <3F917ACC.3060509@pacbell.net> <20031019201229.0FE806E523@smtp.us2.messagingengine.com> <3F9D2E8E.9060206@pacbell.net> <18142.1067268270@kanga.nu> <3F9D4C8B.6080302@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20031028184829.GE25670@snew.com> I used Mail for a long time. Then I found elm in 1991 or so. Lived on that. It was like "Mail" but understood that I was on a CRT, not a TTY. I used NeXT mail and gave it up reluctantly when a job onsite meant no NeXT. At a job, I started to use ZMail (related to mush, but with a GUI.) And it ran on MacOS and Windows and Unix/Motif. I used it to show that "Unix mail" worked fine on Mac and Windows. (I showed it at a demo using a Powerbook 180 attached to a POP server on OS/2 just to hammer home "open standards" not (just) unix). ZMail was lovely. Didn't ever get to IMAP and was sold off to be part of a TCP/IP package for Windows. Nice filtering and I could write "buttons" with Z-Script. WRite a letter and press the FAX button - it would popup a dialogue box for the phone number and (unknown the user) email it to the nearest Hylafax sender box. UK Faxes would go to the UK and get Faxed, calif. faxes would go to the SF office to be sent, etc. Gimme a SPARC 1 and a telebit modem (both scrap at the time), and I had a fax server. But I always came back to elm when I needed non-GUI mail. Then I played with this new Mutt. Was ok. Did POP. Did color. Did easy PGP. Did threading! That nailed it. I found a muttrc that made it close enough to elm that my fingers didn't have to change habits and have run it for 6 years. Once I had that rc, I changed over in 10 minutes. My huge archived mail gets procmailed into message/file so I can use glimpse and grep easily. mutt reads it. My IMAP server does message/file and mutt reads it fine. So does Apple Mail (using some) and Mozilla mail (used lots cause I could sync up and go offline, sort mail into folders, go online and watch it move all the mail. Mulberry is lovely (though the config is breaks many GUI guidelines about overloading functionality and modal dialogues within dialogue boxes). Mom uses Eudora. IMAP means webmail is trivially easy to setup for users. Best part: they can use multiple IMAP clients. From baylisa at az0.altern8.net Tue Oct 28 12:39:34 2003 From: baylisa at az0.altern8.net (Vince Hoang) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 10:39:34 -1000 Subject: dealing with trolls Message-ID: <20031028203934.GS36257@anarchy.com> Folks, _please_ stop falling prey to the trolls and let the threads die. If you feel like replying, then take it _offlist_. Thanks, -Vince From gwen at reptiles.org Tue Oct 28 12:39:51 2003 From: gwen at reptiles.org (Gwendolynn ferch Elydyr) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:39:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: A Simple Solution For Wanna-Be Censors In-Reply-To: <3F9D351F.7050801@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20031028153909.J442-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, richard childers / kg6hac wrote: > It would also filter out all the undesirables ... at least, until they > showed up and coughed up some cash, putting the organization's officers > in the uncomfortable position of rejecting membership of certain > applicants, based upon ... what? Political affiliation? Lack of > political affiliation? Eye color? I'm sure something can be devised; > although I don't know if it would stand up in court, or if it would > result in the organization being disbanded, for inability to follow > California laws. Hrm. How about we all cough up to keep people off the list? That'd be an interesting process, encouraging us all to get along better ;> cheers! ========================================================================== "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now." From matt at offmyserver.com Tue Oct 28 14:04:01 2003 From: matt at offmyserver.com (Matt Olander) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 14:04:01 -0800 Subject: A Simple Solution For Wanna-Be Censors In-Reply-To: <20031028153909.J442-100000@iguana.reptiles.org>; from gwen@reptiles.org on Tue, Oct 28, 2003 at 03:39:51PM -0500 References: <3F9D351F.7050801@pacbell.net> <20031028153909.J442-100000@iguana.reptiles.org> Message-ID: <20031028140400.A22699@knight.ixsystems.net> On Tue, Oct 28, 2003 at 03:39:51PM -0500, Gwendolynn ferch Elydyr wrote: > On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, richard childers / kg6hac wrote: > > It would also filter out all the undesirables ... at least, until they > > showed up and coughed up some cash, putting the organization's officers > > in the uncomfortable position of rejecting membership of certain > > applicants, based upon ... what? Political affiliation? Lack of > > political affiliation? Eye color? I'm sure something can be devised; > > although I don't know if it would stand up in court, or if it would > > result in the organization being disbanded, for inability to follow > > California laws. > > Hrm. How about we all cough up to keep people off the list? That'd be > an interesting process, encouraging us all to get along better ;> I'll put 5 down on that ;) -matt -- Matt Olander (408)943-4100 Phone (408)943-4101 Fax www.offmyserver.com -- "Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't" -Mark Twain From jimd at starshine.org Tue Oct 28 09:56:57 2003 From: jimd at starshine.org (jimd at starshine.org) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:56:57 +0000 Subject: A Simple Solution For Wanna-Be Censors In-Reply-To: <3F9D351F.7050801@pacbell.net> References: <3F9D351F.7050801@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20031028175657.GA28943@mercury.starshine.org> On Mon, Oct 27, 2003 at 07:09:19AM -0800, richard childers / kg6hac wrote: > It's not that hard to stop "unsolicited" posts to BayLISA. > It's really simple. > Paid subscriptions. > If you want to subscribe to BayLISA, you need to give BayLISA money, on > a yearly basis. I'm starting to wonder if you're taking lessons from Rev. Don "drank the Kool-Aid" Kool from c.u.a (comp.unix.admin). -- Jim Dennis From jimd at starshine.org Tue Oct 28 10:10:43 2003 From: jimd at starshine.org (jimd at starshine.org) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:10:43 +0000 Subject: dealing with trolls In-Reply-To: <20031028203934.GS36257@anarchy.com> References: <20031028203934.GS36257@anarchy.com> Message-ID: <20031028181043.GD28943@mercury.starshine.org> On Tue, Oct 28, 2003 at 10:39:34AM -1000, Vince Hoang wrote: > Folks, _please_ stop falling prey to the trolls and let the > threads die. If you feel like replying, then take it _offlist_. > Thanks, > -Vince I've tried. It must be the ravages of under-employment! :) -- Jim Dennis From claw at kanga.nu Tue Oct 28 15:48:32 2003 From: claw at kanga.nu (J C Lawrence) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:48:32 -0500 Subject: A Simple Solution For Wanna-Be Censors In-Reply-To: Message from richard childers / kg6hac of "Mon, 27 Oct 2003 07:09:19 PST." <3F9D351F.7050801@pacbell.net> References: <3F9D351F.7050801@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <15879.1067384912@kanga.nu> On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 07:09:19 -0800 richard childers > wrote: > It's not that hard to stop "unsolicited" posts to BayLISA. It's > really simple. ... > One possible... > A second possible... > A third possibility... A fourth possibility is that you are attacking attempting to establish a non-problem as a problem in a trollish manner, and not doing it very well either. *PLONK* -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw at kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From claw at kanga.nu Tue Oct 28 15:49:27 2003 From: claw at kanga.nu (J C Lawrence) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:49:27 -0500 Subject: dealing with trolls In-Reply-To: Message from Vince Hoang of "Tue, 28 Oct 2003 10:39:34 -1000." <20031028203934.GS36257@anarchy.com> References: <20031028203934.GS36257@anarchy.com> Message-ID: <17005.1067384967@kanga.nu> On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 10:39:34 -1000 Vince Hoang wrote: > Folks, _please_ stop falling prey to the trolls and let the threads > die. If you feel like replying, then take it _offlist_. +1 -- J C Lawrence, who loves his MUA, really, and wants everyone to know that! ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw at kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live.