From michael at halligan.org Mon Dec 1 13:19:47 2003 From: michael at halligan.org (Michael T. Halligan) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 13:19:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: When a customer burns you. Message-ID: I've recently quit a project due to a customer's inability to pay me on time. They still have a $15k outstanding debt to me (billable hours to me, and billable hours of subcontractors whom I've already paid). They have money, that's no doubt, so I'll probably have a good leg to stand on in court. it's sad I have to do that. They informed me they were looking for a new contractor to "finish the job", and have already called up one of my subcontractors trying to get them to go in and do the work. My guys aren't that stupid, but how can I inform other contractors about the risks of working with this company? What channels are available? ------------------- Michael T. Halligan Chief Geek Halligan Infrastructure Designs. http://www.halligan.org/ 2250 Jerrold Ave #11 San Francisco, CA 94124-1012 (415) 724.7998 - Mobile From chuck+baylisa at snew.com Mon Dec 1 13:16:38 2003 From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 16:16:38 -0500 Subject: When a customer burns you. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031201211638.GA13923@snew.com> Quoting Michael T. Halligan (michael at halligan.org): > I've recently quit a project due to a customer's inability > to pay me on time. They still have a $15k outstanding debt > to me (billable hours to me, and billable hours of subcontractors > whom I've already paid). They have money, that's no doubt, so > I'll probably have a good leg to stand on in court. it's sad > I have to do that. > > They informed me they were looking for a new contractor to > "finish the job", and have already called up one of my subcontractors > trying to get them to go in and do the work. My guys aren't > that stupid, but how can I inform other contractors about the risks > of working with this company? What channels are available? You likely want to have a chat with a lawyer. You're way over any Small Claims. When I was in film and doing smaller computer stuff (couple days here and there), we'd use "mechanics liens" with customers that were slow (read 6 months) in paying. They come from, clearly, Mechanics who'd do work on a piece of machinery and not get paid. As for informing about risks, you want to steer clear of perceived slander/libel issues which could cost you in the long run. If they contend they aren't paying you due to missed deadlines, then telling someone that they aren't paying could be construed, by some lawyer, in ways that could harm you and your case. From strata at virtual.net Mon Dec 1 14:32:01 2003 From: strata at virtual.net (Strata R Chalup) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 14:32:01 -0800 Subject: When a customer burns you. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FCBC161.2070409@virtual.net> Michael, It's a bit late now that you've quit, but my advice in this situation is never to quit unless the client is visibly broke. As long as you are still onsite and helping, they have an incentive to pay you something, even if it's installments and overdue. Once you walk away, they have ZERO incentive to pay you, figuring that it will take more money in legal fees and lost wages on your part to collect than they owe. :-/ If you don't feel the bridge is fully burned, I'd recommend trying to reopen it on a personal level, ie apologizing for quitting and offering them a discount of 5 - 10% or so on the bill. Set new expectations about invoicing, and generate a monthly invoice. Try to talk to Accounts Payable directly, and ask them what, in their opinion, would be the best way to go about getting this resolved-- but don't bluster or threaten the nice folks at A.P., they've heard it *all* before and won't be impressed or cowed. Times are getting better, but I'd be surprised if any of us would like to walk away from a $15K invoice if there were a better way. Despite your very real grievance, the fact that they're calling folks to "finish the job" shows they're thinking of you in a bad light (a quitter) and may be tarnishing your rep with other folks. They're not going to say "well, we didn't pay somebody so they left", they're going to say, "somebody left" and then you look bad. :-( What one generally does in these circumstances is makes friends with the Accts Payable folks during one's introductory phase with the company, meeting them in person while dropping off tax forms and the like. Then when you put in your invoices, you find out who can sign off on them (or, sometimes, who HAS to sign off on them) in addition to your manager in order for you to be paid. It's much better to invoice by the milestone rather than by the job, so that the client never gets a chance to have sticker shock or say, "gee, now that email is working again, was it really worth that much?" or similar. When working a longterm onsite contract as corp to corp, I generally invoice monthly and list specific accomplishments on the invoice if there aren't formal milestones. I also list pending items still to accomplish, so that it's clear that there are still things to be done and that they need to keep me happy as I keep them happy. :-) I also very explicitly state in my contract and on my invoice that the terms are net 15 (and let them assume net 30, which they all do), and set a penalty for late payment of 5 - 10%. If I am paid late and the job is a continuing one, I specifically list the late payment charge for previous invoice on my next invoice. I also make a point of waiving it in writing on that invoice, to establish that I'm being nice about it. Another thing I have tried successfully is to establish an "early discount" or "preferred customer" rate, billing at the standard rate and making a note on the invoice that payment postmarked on or before net 30 is eligible for a 5% discount. I let them do the math, though I do check it when I receive payment. :-) Some institutions have specific policies that mandate early/on-time payment when a discount can be obtained, so then you have the Accts Payable folks batting for you instead of being dispassionate observers. Good luck on this one! _Strata Michael T. Halligan wrote: > I've recently quit a project due to a customer's inability > to pay me on time. They still have a $15k outstanding debt > to me (billable hours to me, and billable hours of subcontractors > whom I've already paid). They have money, that's no doubt, so > I'll probably have a good leg to stand on in court. it's sad > I have to do that. > > They informed me they were looking for a new contractor to > "finish the job", and have already called up one of my subcontractors > trying to get them to go in and do the work. My guys aren't > that stupid, but how can I inform other contractors about the risks > of working with this company? What channels are available? > > ------------------- > Michael T. Halligan > Chief Geek > Halligan Infrastructure Designs. > http://www.halligan.org/ > 2250 Jerrold Ave #11 > San Francisco, CA 94124-1012 > (415) 724.7998 - Mobile > > -- ======================================================================== Strata Rose Chalup [KF6NBZ] strata "@" virtual.net VirtualNet Consulting http://www.virtual.net/ ** Project Management & Architecture for ISP/ASP Systems Integration ** ========================================================================= From chuck+baylisa at snew.com Mon Dec 1 15:21:50 2003 From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 18:21:50 -0500 Subject: When a customer burns you. In-Reply-To: <3FCBC995.2030001@pacbell.net> References: <20031201211638.GA13923@snew.com> <3FCBC995.2030001@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20031201232150.GA28089@snew.com> I expect this will eventually make it to the list without the HTML attachment (eg. when the unpaid postmaster has the time to check the mail that's queued for manual intervention). In the meantime, below covers a great way to end all chance of settling the problem without court and opens up the opportunity for them to look it for slander (one of the exceptions to free speech). I much prefer ms chalup's method of working with the person in accounting to settle it. The next step: Legal redress. Just filing is often enough to motivate them to settle (jeeze, $partner, it's going to cost us about as much to fight this, plus we're on the hook for his expenses if we lose; let's just pay this legit bill and be done with it.) Vendetta marketing doesn't work really well for long term business in an area. Quoting richard childers / kg6hac (fscked at pacbell.net): > Michael, > > While I understand where Chuck is coming from, in erring on the side of > the angels, I have a different perspective. It is one that gets me into > hot water, now and then. > > It is my understanding that I have freedom of speech. > > I feel that it is my obligation to use it, where required, to inform the > public about a situation that it is in the public's interest to know about. > > > > I know, I know, talking about responsibilities is absurd. We Americans > only have rights; we do not have responsibilities, to ourselves, or even > to one another. 'Constitution' is just a hard word on the spelling test, > it doesn't actually -mean- anything. > > > > Bluntly: if no one did anything wrong, there is nothing wrong with > discussing it, publically (we leave the logical complement as an > exercise for the reader). > > Let that be your mantra. > > It is at the heart of every sunshine statute ever written. It is what > criminals, and bullies, fear - publicity, and the resultant > coordination, and actualization, of their victims, as they realize that > they all have something in common. > > > Of course, it gets stickier with lawyers trying to put a spin on your > every syllable, and trying to snowball everything into enough money so > that they can profit from someone's pain. > > You need to structure your actions in such a way as to protect your > assets, so that your liability does not become your company's liability. > How to do this is a separate topic. > > Lawyers are expert at saying what they mean without accruing any > liability; study how they manipulate the record. Never suggest someone > is lying; that's defamation. Instead, suggest that you do not know that > they are telling the truth. This is a factually true statement. So long > as you focus on your current interpretation of the event and rely upon > objective elements to support your conclusions, you are in the realm of > personal freedom to articulate to others your true internal state. If > you, personally, cannot distinguish between a person's actions, and what > you know, objectively, to be criminal conduct, then that is the other > person's lookout; they have crossed the line of civil public behavior > and are legitimate targets for public scrutiny. Scrutinize 'em. > > Sure, there are people who abuse this. They are called lawyers - and > they make their living, usually, by misrepresenting the truth. Some of > them are pretty cocky, and if you pay attention to small details, you > might get lucky and help get one of them disbarred, for life. That would > be a valuable bonus, and all of California would thank you. You could > paint a little logo on your fender - I suggest a shark with the > universal red circle and slash, indicating negation. > > If you avoid adjectives and adverbs and stick to demonstratable facts > you're on solid ground, to the best of my knowledge. You can make it > solider by standing up for your rights instead of letting people walk > all over you, and setting an example that others will follow. > > By putting the spotlight on crooked individuals you are doing yourself > and everyone else a favor. > > Let me put my money where my mouth is: > > http://www.craigslist.org/sfc/cps/19982617.html > > > ... And now, I need to carry an Amazon in training upstairs, so we can > go watch Barney. > > > > > Regards, > > Richard Childers / Senior Engineer > Daemonized Networking Services > https://www.daemonized.com > (415) 759-5571 > > > Chuck Yerkes wrote: > > >Quoting Michael T. Halligan (michael at halligan.org): > > > > > >>I've recently quit a project due to a customer's inability > >>to pay me on time. They still have a $15k outstanding debt > >>to me (billable hours to me, and billable hours of subcontractors > >>whom I've already paid). They have money, that's no doubt, so > >>I'll probably have a good leg to stand on in court. it's sad > >>I have to do that. > >> > >>They informed me they were looking for a new contractor to > >>"finish the job", and have already called up one of my subcontractors > >>trying to get them to go in and do the work. My guys aren't > >>that stupid, but how can I inform other contractors about the risks > >>of working with this company? What channels are available? > >> > >> > > > >You likely want to have a chat with a lawyer. > > > >You're way over any Small Claims. > >When I was in film and doing smaller computer stuff > >(couple days here and there), we'd use "mechanics liens" > >with customers that were slow (read 6 months) in paying. > >They come from, clearly, Mechanics who'd do work on a piece > >of machinery and not get paid. > > > > > >As for informing about risks, you want to steer clear of perceived > >slander/libel issues which could cost you in the long run. If they > >contend they aren't paying you due to missed deadlines, then telling > >someone that they aren't paying could be construed, by some lawyer, > >in ways that could harm you and your case. From michael at halligan.org Mon Dec 1 17:42:16 2003 From: michael at halligan.org (Michael T. Halligan) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 17:42:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: When a customer burns you. In-Reply-To: <20031201232150.GA28089@snew.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Dec 2003, Chuck Yerkes wrote: > Vendetta marketing doesn't work really well for long term business > in an area. But why not? Credit companies have equifix, transunion, and experian. Banks have chexsystems. Why not an IT consultant's network/union to discuss employer's worthiness? If a company has a reputation for not paying their consultants, a consultant should have the ability to look that company up in an epinions like website, find that information out, and modify his/her contract terms to promote paying, or ignore the request for bid. Such a thing would force the hands of those who hire contractors and force them to operate in an ethical manner. ------------------- Michael T. Halligan Chief Geek Halligan Infrastructure Designs. http://www.halligan.org/ 2250 Jerrold Ave #11 San Francisco, CA 94124-1012 (415) 724.7998 - Mobile From neil at askneil.com Mon Dec 1 17:02:40 2003 From: neil at askneil.com (Neil Katin) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 17:02:40 -0800 Subject: When a customer burns you. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FCBE4B0.1040508@askneil.com> Michael T. Halligan wrote: > On Mon, 1 Dec 2003, Chuck Yerkes wrote: > >>Vendetta marketing doesn't work really well for long term business >>in an area. > > > > But why not? Credit companies have equifix, transunion, and experian. > > Banks have chexsystems. Have you checked out D&B (www.dnb.com)? They're pretty much the equivalent ratings orgranization for b2b transactions... Its seems like a *lot* of work to set up your own, when one already exists... Neil From qkstart at ix.netcom.com Mon Dec 1 17:14:52 2003 From: qkstart at ix.netcom.com (David Dull) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 17:14:52 -0800 Subject: When a customer burns you. References: Message-ID: <001601c3b871$b1cb1ec0$75daf7a5@qkstart> > But why not? Credit companies have Equifax, transunion, and experian. > > Banks have chexsystems. > > Why not an IT consultant's network/union to discuss employer's worthiness? > If a company has a reputation for not paying their consultants, a consultant > should have the ability to look that company up in an epinions like website, > ... I've worked for 14 clients in 14 years, and with as many agencies. I have discovered that one consultant's bad experience doesn't necessarily mean I'll have the same experience. One customer who gave me a hard time in billing -- 6 months late and didn't pay the penalty fees -- you would never have heard of. Several agencies were a hard experience as well, even though they shouldn't have been. With thousands of clients and hundreds of agencies out there, a blacklist would have no meaning to me. --David Dull ddull at netcom.com http://www.DavidDull.com From qkstart at ix.netcom.com Mon Dec 1 17:29:08 2003 From: qkstart at ix.netcom.com (David Dull) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 17:29:08 -0800 Subject: When a customer burns you. References: <3FCBE4B0.1040508@askneil.com> Message-ID: <002701c3b873$af8fe9e0$75daf7a5@qkstart> > > Have you checked out D&B (www.dnb.com)? They're pretty much > the equivalent ratings organization for b2b transactions... > Good point. I shoulda remembered. --David Dull ddull at netcom.com http://www.DavidDull.com From rsr at inorganic.org Mon Dec 1 17:47:26 2003 From: rsr at inorganic.org (Roy S. Rapoport) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 17:47:26 -0800 Subject: When a customer burns you. In-Reply-To: <3FCBC161.2070409@virtual.net> References: <3FCBC161.2070409@virtual.net> Message-ID: <20031202014726.GB29198@nag.inorganic.org> On Mon, Dec 01, 2003 at 02:32:01PM -0800, Strata R Chalup wrote: > It's a bit late now that you've quit, but my advice in this > situation is never to quit unless the client is visibly broke. > As long as you are still onsite and helping, they have an > incentive to pay you something, even if it's installments and > overdue. Once you walk away, they have ZERO incentive to > pay you, figuring that it will take more money in legal fees > and lost wages on your part to collect than they owe. :-/ On the other hand, the client may use exactly that sort of attitude against you -- "he's desperate (especially in these times) and wouldn't dare quit." In some respects, it's also a question of what you're doing for the client. The one time my last consulting company had a seriously recalcitrant client, we were their sole IT provider -- we were doing everything from strategic projects to day-to-day support. They couldn't let us leave without suffering some pretty significant danger of downtime, and so we were in a stronger position when we initiated the work stoppage. Of course, that's another element -- there's a big difference between "you guys aren't paying me, I quit" and "We will not be doing work until these differences are resolved," though again that's likely dependent on the actual type of duties you're performing. -roy From chuck+baylisa at snew.com Mon Dec 1 18:40:47 2003 From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 21:40:47 -0500 Subject: When a customer burns you. In-Reply-To: <3FCBF6B0.90507@pacbell.net> References: <3FCBF6B0.90507@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20031202024047.GA453@snew.com> Okay a (partly fictional) scenario: I'm in the database. Some consultant I hired reported me. Oh, but it turns out I fired him after he showed up, started working for a bit, the machines were unreliable, crashing, etc. He'd mixed packages between versions. Libc was all screwed up. The machines were now up 50% of the time. He'd been with us 2 days and done some work on the weekend. We refused to pay him the weekend rates, when he messed everything up. He reports us to your bad company database. The DBDB. (deadbeat database). We later make an offer to someone; he checks the database. Refuses, at the last minute, to work for us - cause we're deadbeats. Not having our new servers up costs *us* a client. Measurable money. $200k, lets say. We now turn around and go after you for defamation. $200k plus damages and legal fees. You sure you want to be in that business? The RBL folks are careful AND are looking for a good suit to establish some legal footings with. You really don't want to be there without resources. Especially when other resources exist: BBB, D&B, etc. No need to keep me on the reply list, I'm on the baylisa list already. Quoting richard childers / kg6hac (fscked at pacbell.net): > Hear, hear. I second the idea of a local database tracking customers > (and employers). > > There's a good reason to establish a database, locally; it closes the > loop, locally, and creates an effective feedback mechanism to the > companies and personnel responsible. > > I'm not convinced D&B is an effective mechanism; a company can bully > (rob) smaller companies, and get away with it, because its behavior > never gets on the record, so long as it picks its victims carefully ... > just like in real life, where having a teacher, on the playground, > doesn't stop bullies from catching their target, in the bathroom. > > Just because we're part of the global village, doesn't mean we can't > still benefit from a block patrol. > > -- richard > > Richard Childers / Senior Engineer > Daemonized Networking Services > https://www.daemonized.com > (415) 759-5571 From michael at halligan.org Mon Dec 1 20:42:20 2003 From: michael at halligan.org (Michael T. Halligan) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 20:42:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: When a customer burns you. In-Reply-To: <20031202024047.GA453@snew.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Dec 2003, Chuck Yerkes wrote: > Okay a (partly fictional) scenario: > > I'm in the database. Some consultant I hired reported me. > Oh, but it turns out I fired him after he showed up, started working > for a bit, the machines were unreliable, crashing, etc. He'd mixed > packages between versions. Libc was all screwed up. The machines were > now up 50% of the time. He'd been with us 2 days and done some work > on the weekend. We refused to pay him the weekend rates, when he > messed everything up. He reports us to your bad company database. > The DBDB. (deadbeat database). > > We later make an offer to someone; he checks the database. Refuses, > at the last minute, to work for us - cause we're deadbeats. > > Not having our new servers up costs *us* a client. Measurable money. > $200k, lets say. We now turn around and go after you for defamation. > $200k plus damages and legal fees. > > You sure you want to be in that business? > > The RBL folks are careful AND are looking for a good suit to establish > some legal footings with. You really don't want to be there without > resources. Especially when other resources exist: BBB, D&B, etc. > > No need to keep me on the reply list, I'm on the baylisa list already. See. This is a problem though. It comes down to the "they have theirs, but we can't have ours" lists.. off the top of my head, here are blacklists that affect us in our daily lives : - Credit Reporting - ChexSystems (bounce a check, they screw you for 7 years) - LandLord Networks (especially in san francisco) - Inside lists (EVERY VC and Angel investment group in the bay - area has a list of preferred employees and blacklisted employees) - Dentist's networks.. - References. You can't give a bad reference legally, but people do anyways. BBB & D&B are nice, but what use are they? The customer who's defrauding me right now is a brand new startup.. They tried to request a thorough background check on me (and I walked away when they did, but they caved in).. Yet I had no recourse whatsoever to find out how credit-worthy they were, finding out from a former employee halfway through the contract that they had a long history of defrauding their contractors.. I just think there needs to be some kind of legal company reference. If I have to give the names of associates and friends to a company so they can see if I'm trustworthy and skillworthy enough to work for them, why shouldn't I have a resource to find out what kind of an employer they are? ------------------- Michael T. Halligan Chief Geek Halligan Infrastructure Designs. http://www.halligan.org/ 2250 Jerrold Ave #11 San Francisco, CA 94124-1012 (415) 724.7998 - Mobile From michael at halligan.org Mon Dec 1 20:43:57 2003 From: michael at halligan.org (Michael T. Halligan) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 20:43:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: When a customer burns you. In-Reply-To: <20031202014726.GB29198@nag.inorganic.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Dec 2003, Roy S. Rapoport wrote: > On Mon, Dec 01, 2003 at 02:32:01PM -0800, Strata R Chalup wrote: > > It's a bit late now that you've quit, but my advice in this > > situation is never to quit unless the client is visibly broke. > > As long as you are still onsite and helping, they have an > > incentive to pay you something, even if it's installments and > > overdue. Once you walk away, they have ZERO incentive to > > pay you, figuring that it will take more money in legal fees > > and lost wages on your part to collect than they owe. :-/ > > On the other hand, the client may use exactly that sort of attitude against > you -- "he's desperate (especially in these times) and wouldn't dare quit." If you're desperate for money, you shouldn't be a consultant. I personally keep a year's buffer, as well as a lawyer on retainer. I think a minimum of 6 months buffer and a good lawyer & accountant are essential for ANY consultant. > In some respects, it's also a question of what you're doing for the client. > The one time my last consulting company had a seriously recalcitrant > client, we were their sole IT provider -- we were doing everything from > strategic projects to day-to-day support. They couldn't let us leave > without suffering some pretty significant danger of downtime, and so we > were in a stronger position when we initiated the work stoppage. > > Of course, that's another element -- there's a big difference between "you > guys aren't paying me, I quit" and "We will not be doing work until these > differences are resolved," though again that's likely dependent on the > actual type of duties you're performing. ------------------- Michael T. Halligan Chief Geek Halligan Infrastructure Designs. http://www.halligan.org/ 2250 Jerrold Ave #11 San Francisco, CA 94124-1012 (415) 724.7998 - Mobile From rsr at inorganic.org Mon Dec 1 21:05:37 2003 From: rsr at inorganic.org (Roy S. Rapoport) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 21:05:37 -0800 Subject: When a customer burns you. In-Reply-To: References: <20031202014726.GB29198@nag.inorganic.org> Message-ID: <20031202050537.GB6356@nag.inorganic.org> On Mon, Dec 01, 2003 at 08:43:57PM -0800, Michael T. Halligan wrote: > > On the other hand, the client may use exactly that sort of attitude against > > you -- "he's desperate (especially in these times) and wouldn't dare quit." > > If you're desperate for money, you shouldn't be a consultant. I personally > keep a year's buffer, as well as a lawyer on retainer. I think a minimum > of 6 months buffer and a good lawyer & accountant are essential for ANY > consultant. I'm not disagreeing. I'm pointing out that staying no matter what can create the impression that you're desperate and spineless. In our company, we had some substantial discussions about it before we initiated the work stoppage, and the person who proposed it (whose client it was) pointed out we were risking them saying "fine, go away." We ended up doing it, despite being desperate for money (yes, we started with a year's buffer. Nine months afterwards, we didn't have a year's buffer), because we felt that getting the relationship back where he needed to be -- "We work. You pay" was of fundamentally critical importance. -roy From alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com Mon Dec 1 17:36:08 2003 From: alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com (Alvin Oga) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 17:36:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: company - Re: When a customer burns you. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [This delay brought to the list by someone postin from an address which is not the subscription address. To avoid this delay -- and make less work for me -- post from your subscribed address. -- postmaster@] hi ya On Mon, 1 Dec 2003, Michael T. Halligan wrote: > On Mon, 1 Dec 2003, Chuck Yerkes wrote: > > Vendetta marketing doesn't work really well for long term business > > in an area. > > > But why not? Credit companies have equifix, transunion, and experian. > > Banks have chexsystems. > > Why not an IT consultant's network/union to discuss employer's worthiness? its not the company ... its the people that does the deciding not to pay bills ... and usually if its a small company, they reinvent themself as a new startup company of a new name ... and somtimes, the company name change is legit as new investors come into play and issue more stocks i'd track the payment history of who the people are ( managers, investors and employees that goa long with non payments ) - i have a long laundry list of places and people NOT to work for :-) - collecting w/ lawyers .... - don't bother ... its too expensive on time, labor, paperwork you need for the courts ... - even if you win, how do you collect on judgements .. ( writ of execution is nice, but thats a 1-time hand in the till ) - mechanics liens, as has been pointed is great, if you can actually get the judge go give you one and have it held up as payable liens .. ( mechanics liens for cars, plumbing, carpentry is all ( well argued and holds its weight -- posting non-paying bozos will just open you up for libel/slander independent of whether it is true or not ... - credit reports are not for public review even if its "true" -- if we/you/somebody get a ex- (head) corp council for trw[epecurian], transunion or cbi or equifax .... than i'd join that "bad-risk-client" database ven if it costs $100/month or more -- and pay $xxx to get a "bill paying" credit report of the new customers -- by the way, don't bother calling references they give you, call up their other customers that provide services, invoices to them and see if they pay them .. c ya alvin > If a company has a reputation for not paying their consultants, a consultant > should have the ability to look that company up in an epinions like website, > find that information out, and modify his/her contract terms to promote paying, > or ignore the request for bid. Such a thing would force the hands of those > who hire contractors and force them to operate in an ethical manner. > > ------------------- > Michael T. Halligan > Chief Geek > Halligan Infrastructure Designs. > http://www.halligan.org/ > 2250 Jerrold Ave #11 > San Francisco, CA 94124-1012 > (415) 724.7998 - Mobile > From hans at whitties.org Mon Dec 1 17:35:57 2003 From: hans at whitties.org (Hans Jacobsen) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 17:35:57 -0800 Subject: When a customer burns you. In-Reply-To: References: <20031201232150.GA28089@snew.com> Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.0.20031201173512.030cd378@mail.wwc.com> Then why not just use the general credit check folks and get a blemish on their credit record? (and why not check credit before doing business?) -hej Hans Jacobsen At 05:42 PM 12/1/2003, Michael T. Halligan wrote: >On Mon, 1 Dec 2003, Chuck Yerkes wrote: > > Vendetta marketing doesn't work really well for long term business > > in an area. > > >But why not? Credit companies have equifix, transunion, and experian. > >Banks have chexsystems. > >Why not an IT consultant's network/union to discuss employer's worthiness? >If a company has a reputation for not paying their consultants, a consultant >should have the ability to look that company up in an epinions like website, >find that information out, and modify his/her contract terms to promote >paying, >or ignore the request for bid. Such a thing would force the hands of those >who hire contractors and force them to operate in an ethical manner. > >------------------- >Michael T. Halligan >Chief Geek >Halligan Infrastructure Designs. >http://www.halligan.org/ >2250 Jerrold Ave #11 >San Francisco, CA 94124-1012 >(415) 724.7998 - Mobile -hej Hans Jacobsen cell 408 828 3228 YM ID hejish From alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com Mon Dec 1 19:34:00 2003 From: alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com (Alvin Oga) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 19:34:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: dbdb -- Re: When a customer burns you. In-Reply-To: <20031202024047.GA453@snew.com> Message-ID: hi ya chuck On Mon, 1 Dec 2003, Chuck Yerkes wrote: > Okay a (partly fictional) scenario: > > I'm in the database. Some consultant I hired reported me. > Oh, but it turns out I fired him after he showed up, started working > for a bit, the machines were unreliable, crashing, etc. He'd mixed > packages between versions. Libc was all screwed up. The machines were > now up 50% of the time. He'd been with us 2 days and done some work > on the weekend. We refused to pay him the weekend rates, when he > messed everything up. He reports us to your bad company database. > The DBDB. (deadbeat database). umm.... that's a 2 way street !!! consultant can report the cleint as a deadbeat and other derogatories .. and .. client can report the consultant as a deadbeat and other derogatories clients that make consultants work on weekends and off hours and expect things to work flawlessly should understand what it takes to keep things flowing ... - if the client's bozo's break it .. they fix it .. - if the consultants bozo's break it ... i'd fire them on the spot and fix the problem for the client for free all these going back and forth stuff can also be entered for all to read and figure out which side they wanna believe > We later make an offer to someone; he checks the database. Refuses, > at the last minute, to work for us - cause we're deadbeats. or the otyher way around .. clients dont wanna hire deadbeat (fresh out of $$$ (trade)school turn ) consultants either > Not having our new servers up costs *us* a client. Measurable money. > $200k, lets say. We now turn around and go after you for defamation. > $200k plus damages and legal fees. very few people taking any legal recourse against all the credit card reporting agencies ... but than again, they're backed up by the banks etc .. in the dbdb listings of deadbeats, there is no one else behind the "need to keep that db list" > You sure you want to be in that business? > > The RBL folks are careful AND are looking for a good suit to establish > some legal footings with. You really don't want to be there without > resources. Especially when other resources exist: BBB, D&B, etc. and some folks gave up on waiting for those suits .. and said i quit and went off doing other stuff instead in the long run, some of the rbls will survive, as a service similar to it is obviously needed ... time will tell which ones will survive c ya alvin From echiu at imservice.com Wed Dec 3 09:17:25 2003 From: echiu at imservice.com (Eric Chiu) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 12:17:25 -0500 Subject: list of companies that use UNIX Message-ID: <161701c3b9c1$54000520$4ee970c6@bear> [Message was delayed because of HTML content; it thus awaited my intervention, and I'm running rather behind in email of late. -- dhw] How can I get a list of small/mid-sized companies that use UNIX systems in the Sacramento area? I am looking for prospective clients, not UNIX vendors. A google search does not seem to be helpful... Thanks, Eric Chiu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fjd at shell.accesscom.com Wed Dec 3 16:39:08 2003 From: fjd at shell.accesscom.com (fjd at shell.accesscom.com) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 16:39:08 -0800 Subject: list of companies that use UNIX In-Reply-To: <161701c3b9c1$54000520$4ee970c6@bear> Message-ID: <200312040039.hB40d8td024440@shell.accesscom.com> > How can I get a list of small/mid-sized companies that use UNIX systems > in the Sacramento area? I am looking for prospective clients, not UNIX vendors. You may want to ask that on some of the mailing lists of the Sacramento Linux Users Group SACLUG listed at http://www.saclug.org/lists.php Hope that helps, Farokh Deboo From alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com Wed Dec 3 18:47:49 2003 From: alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com (Alvin Oga) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 18:47:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: list of companies that use UNIX In-Reply-To: <161701c3b9c1$54000520$4ee970c6@bear> Message-ID: hi ya eric On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, Eric Chiu wrote: > How can I get a list of small/mid-sized companies that use UNIX systems > in the Sacramento area? I am looking for prospective clients, not UNIX vendors. > > A google search does not seem to be helpful... assuming nobody wants cold calls from "hey, hire me cause i'm looking" when they have not advertised the position is a bad thing in my book - sending in resumes is little better than cold calls, but still wont get a good response ... i say ... if you want jobs... - let them come to you ... - much better to be in the "upper hand" during negotiations - when they enter their keywords in google or wherever, of what they want.. - "you" better be on the 1st page of google... if not, you have some marketing/advertising/thinking to do to make yourself show up on the 1st page - paying $$$ to google is the simplest answer ... - next step is to make yourself stick out ( special keywords unique to you ) in google/yahoo/alltheweb/excite searches - don't bother paying search engine folks ( you'll just get more spam to buy even more widgets ) - other options .. - go to local chamber of commerce meetings - look in the paper for who's advertising for job openings - go to local **nix meetings that also have "jobs section" - go to online job sites, and enter "sacramento" http://www.Linux-Jobs.net/other.gwif.html c ya alvin today's funky sig... == fun stuff i need done .. asap .. - your price .. my terms or vice versa .. anybody out there knows how to use soldering irons, precision drill press ( 0.005" tolerance ), k-factors, ( 360 degree pan/tilt camera thingie - electronics sorta done .. need the 2" matchbox for gears - also need to rig up a very secure wireless 802.11g network - also need to rig up xterm that displays across 4 monitors 1/4 pic in each screen .. From rick at linuxmafia.com Fri Dec 5 12:02:06 2003 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 12:02:06 -0800 Subject: (forw) Re: Looking for UNIX Sys Admins for 4 hr class Message-ID: <20031205200206.GG6238@linuxmafia.com> ----- Forwarded message from Sheila Brady ----- Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 10:09:16 -0800 To: Rick Moen From: Sheila Brady Subject: Re: Looking for UNIX Sys Admins for 4 hr class [...] And, in case you know other System Administrators who might be interested in taking the test, here is the pitch I sent you yesterday: We are a small research company in Palo Alto, CA by the name of Acuitus. We are located just off the Stanford campus. We are building an educational platform using a computer for the teaching of complex concepts and analysis under a grant from the National Institute for Standards and Technology. As part of our development we are building a class which trains UNIX System Administrators in the craft of troubleshooting UNIX system problems. We are a reputable company that has been in business doing the research and development of this product for the past 4 years. We are looking for students for this class. The class itself takes approximately 4 hours. We are willing to pay $200 to each UNIX System Administrator who is willing to take the class and allow us to observe them and monitor their experience. There is a short (26 question) test which has to be taken to make sure the UNIX Administrator is at the right level of experience before we sign them up for the class. This test has a variety of questions some of which should be answered successfully by the prospective student and some of which should be unanswerable. So it is very important that the prospective student is the actual person who takes the test, without coaching from other people, or extra study, so that we get students at the appropriate skill level. We will need each student to sign a consent form saying that all observations and results from the class are the property of Acuitus. This work is being done according to the guidelines for the protection of human subjects vetted by the IRB. Would you be interested in participating in this class during the week of 12/15 - 12/19? Please respond via e-mail or by calling (650) 833-5710. Feel free to look at our website, www.Acuitus.com for more information about our company. Thanks very much, Rick. I look forward to meeting you! Sheila Brady VP Operations Acuitus 81 Encina, Palo Alto (650) 833-5710 From bill at wards.net Tue Dec 9 01:58:44 2003 From: bill at wards.net (William R Ward) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 01:58:44 -0800 Subject: PenLUG meeting this Thursday, 11-Dec-2003 Message-ID: <16341.40148.10426.845304@komodo.home.wards.net> The Peninsula Linux Users' Group is having its last meeting of 2003 this week, and you are invited. Note: we will be switching back to the 4th Thursday of each month starting next month, so our next meeting after this will be January 22, 2004. Here is the details about this meeting. For more information or directions go to http://www.penlug.org/ Our website is a TWiki; please feel free to create a user account and modify the website if you have something to contribute. Thanks! Date: Thursday, December 11, 2003 Time: 7:00 - 9:00 PM Location: 100 Oracle Parkway, Redwood Shores, CA 94065 Room 1op104 Agenda: 7:00 - 7:30 PM: Nuts & Bolts: "Security on the Desktop" by Gopi Ramamoorthy 7:30 - 8:30 PM: Keynote: Vadim Kurland, "Firewall Builder" 8:30 - 9:00 PM: App of the Month Club discussion: "Mozilla" 9:00 PM: Adjourn to IHOP (US-101 & Whipple) for social & food time Nuts & Bolts: "Security on the Desktop" by Gopi Ramamoorthy Gopi will discuss things that ordinary Linux desktop users should do to improve security and prevent break-ins. * Known Secuity Problems on Linux Desktops * Good Security Practices * Differences Between Linux of various vendors * Security Utilities * Other Resources Keynote: Vadim Kurland, "Firewall Builder" The variety of firewall platforms currently available on the market creates problems for administrators who need to be proficient in many configuration languages and tools. In addition to that, different firewalls significantly deviate in their capabilities. This means administrators not only have to know how to configure different firewalls, but also should understand their differences very well in order to avoid mistakes. Firewall Builder is an Open Source framework and multi-platform firewall configuration tool that allows the administrator to build a policy for an abstract firewall and then translate it into the actual configuration language. Firewall Builder consists of the GUI frontend, a set of the policy compilers that produce code for different target firewalls, and the API library. Firewall Builder uses object-oriented approach to building firewall policy. Currently Firewall Builder can generate configuration files and scripts for the Open Source firewalls based on iptables, ipfilter, pf and ipfw. Vadim will discuss the abstract firewall model supported by Firewall Builder, its properties and their mapping to some target firewall implementations, as well as Firewall Builder's design and implementation. App of the Month: "Mozilla" -- William R Ward bill at wards.net http://www.wards.net/~bill/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- PROFESSIONAL PROGRAMMER, CLOSED COURSE. DO NOT ATTEMPT. From alex at usenix.org Tue Dec 9 11:07:24 2003 From: alex at usenix.org (Alex Walker) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:07:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: LISA '04 - 18th Large Installation System Administration Conference Message-ID: <200312091907.hB9J7OrL002265@voyager.usenix.org> ----------------------------------------------------------------- LISA '04 - 18th Large Installation System Administration Conference "System Administration Reality -- Automation, Configuration, and Users" November 14-19, 2004, Atlanta, Georgia, USA http://www.usenix.org/events/lisa04/ ------------------------------------------------------------------ The annual LISA conference is the meeting place of choice for computer administrators of all specialties and levels of expertise. System, network, storage, database, security and related administration specialists and generalists meet at LISA to exchange ideas, sharpen old skills, learn new techniques, debate current issues, and meet colleagues and friends. People representing everything from the full-time large site to the part-time small shop come from over 30 countries bringing divergent backgrounds and experience levels to the conference dedicated to them. Computer administrators from environments as diverse as academic, large corporations & small business, governmental, and research find LISA to be The Place to go for training, education, networking and interacting with their peers. GET INVOLVED! The LISA 2004 Program Committee invites you to contribute your ideas, papers, and proposals for the technical session's refereed papers track, invited talks, panels, Guru-is-in sessions and work-in-progress reports. We welcome submissions that address all facets of the practice and theory of system, database, security, storage, network and related computer administration. The Call for Participation with submission guidelines and sample topics is now available at: http://www.usenix.org/events/lisa04/cfp/ *Submissions are due by April 20, 2004. We look forward to hearing from you! Sincerely, Lee Damon, University of Washington LISA 2004 Chair lisa04chair at usenix.org From alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com Fri Dec 12 01:03:08 2003 From: alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com (Alvin Oga) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 01:03:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: 802.11g and dvd Message-ID: [Message from postmaster: I don't have as much time for BayLISA mail as I did while I was unemployed (or even while I was employed, but mostly at my desk). As a result, I expect that as long as I'm the only one handling these mssages that are held for intervention, the delay between posting them and their appearance on the mailing list(s) is likely to increase. If you don't want that to happen, there are some (not mutually-exclusive) options available: * Get some other(s) involved as postmaster@; * Only post from subscribed addresses; * Let a postmaster@ know what the (non-subscribed) addresses are from which you will be posting to which mailing lists, so they may be added to the per-mailing list lists of addresses that are permitted to post even though they are not subscribed. -- postmaster at baylisa.org] hi ya its working ... - got a 802.11g [ 54mbps] wireless working on one box... next step is to get another setup for the two to play and than work out the security issues Netgear WG311 http://www.Linux-Sec.net/Wireless - got my 1st dvd (rw) drive was sony dru-510A was $279 and markd down to $175 .. w/ $30 mailin rebate ( at fries ) - btw .. rh-el doesnt like my new intel D865GBFKL mb ( no X11, no sound )... more problems to play with - too many mb to test on - maybe free-tivo is next... - just in case some of you want to play with this stuff too - its beer time .. c ya alvin i've been playing with various new toys/widgets for next year i've just gotten the distro to recognize the Netgear WG311 pci 802.11g card ( have a linksys card too but havent tested it yet ) - note that its "g" 54Mbps ... vs the slower 802.11[a/b] - i got it working with the athros drivers from madwifi http://www.sourceforge.net/madwifi - now the trick is to setup another box just like it and the two machines should be able to talk to each other over 802.11g ... - differences in various wireless stuff http://www.Linux-Sec.net/Wireless/#Sniffers - not that WEP is NOT secure ... ( its been cracked ) and the other fun stuff... i just bought my first dvd .. w/out having a player or system setup ... - played w/ ogle, xine, mplayer, few others.. - after a few hours of fiddling ( installing various packages ) - "dvd player" is now working .. so now i need a new set of real speakers and real audio amps - dvd stuff that ws installed http://www.Linux-Video.net/DVD -- -- howto documentation will get cleaned up later :-) -- - time for beer .. earned my nickel for the week .. From extasia at extasia.org Mon Dec 15 18:25:43 2003 From: extasia at extasia.org (David Alban) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 18:25:43 -0800 Subject: [baylisa] SIG-BEER-WEST this Saturday 8/16 in San Francisco Message-ID: <20031215182543.A26260@gerasimov.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 ***** ***** Please note that there will be no ***** sig-beer-west event in December 2003. ***** We will resume sig-beer-west in January. Mark Saturday, January 17th on your calendar and watch for details. Happy Holidays! See you in January! For any who are curious about what sig-beer-west is, please see last month's announcement: http://extasia.org/sig-beer-west/200311.html _______________________________________________________________________ sig-beer-west Beer. Mental stimulation. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/3mvzPh0M9c/OpdARAiLjAKCpqe12WBFw5sAgLYe0tqdhiXdmeACeP4Rs aZJryETKXaBeQRqe9olvn4w= =hSnn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From extasia at extasia.org Mon Dec 15 18:38:10 2003 From: extasia at extasia.org (David Alban) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 18:38:10 -0800 Subject: [baylisa] CORRECTION: No SIG-BEER-WEST event this month Message-ID: <20031215183810.A27225@gerasimov.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 *sigh* Please excuse the incorrect subject in the previous email! _______________________________________________________________________ ***** ***** Please note that there will be no ***** sig-beer-west event in December 2003. ***** We will resume sig-beer-west in January. Mark Saturday, January 17th on your calendar and watch for details. Happy Holidays! See you in January! For any who are curious about what sig-beer-west is, please see last month's announcement: http://extasia.org/sig-beer-west/200311.html _______________________________________________________________________ sig-beer-west Beer. Mental stimulation. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/3m8QPh0M9c/OpdARAqjrAJ9e+EEm4a+wYdbQr5ZdsE8H4t1M0QCggPO5 grGPGn94cy+zR75JWLNfukE= =zK6N -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jeff at drinktomi.com Mon Dec 15 12:38:43 2003 From: jeff at drinktomi.com (Jeff Younker) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 12:38:43 -0800 Subject: 802.11g and dvd References: Message-ID: <004501c3c34d$3ea8bdd0$8a34a8c0@ad.ofoto.com> > - differences in various wireless stuff > > http://www.Linux-Sec.net/Wireless/#Sniffers > > - note that WEP is NOT secure ... ( its been cracked ) Definitely, and that point needs to be chanted in deep sonorous tones with a tenor wailing away a few octaves higher. All the while the message should be flashed in huge blinky ten meters tall scrolling around the entire edge of a city block. I am a little confused as to why vendors are trying to graft a security protocol specific to wireless ethernet. It seems that this would be an application for IPSec. (Of course that does assume that you're running IP, but it is not a wire replacement protocol like bluetooth.) It frustrates me that the home vendors keep getting close to the mark, but missing it. Many vendors seem to have all the necessary parts in one box: VPN, Firewall, wireless hub, and a wired hub. The problem is how the pieces are connected. The wireless hub should be isolated behind the firewall, and you should only be able to get out of the wireless net by setting up a VPN connection. The Netgear FVM318 seems to have everything wired up in the right way, and you can use IPSec instead of WEP. I'd love to hear if anyone has actually looked at the performance and integrity of this device, or knows of any similar all-in-one home boxes. -jeff From alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com Tue Dec 16 08:53:04 2003 From: alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com (Alvin Oga) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 08:53:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: 802.11g and dvd In-Reply-To: <004501c3c34d$3ea8bdd0$8a34a8c0@ad.ofoto.com> Message-ID: hi jeff On Mon, 15 Dec 2003, Jeff Younker wrote: > > - differences in various wireless stuff > > http://www.Linux-Sec.net/Wireless/#Sniffers ... > The Netgear FVM318 seems to have everything wired > up in the right way, and you can use IPSec instead > of WEP. I'd love to hear if anyone has actually looked > at the performance and integrity of this device, or > knows of any similar all-in-one home boxes. i'd like/need/want to see IPSec up and running asap ... i'll buy all the "parts" and PCs ... but i wont have time till the weekend and pizza/beer for ya or ?? - still need to see if the linksys can be "seen" by linux too ... - than the assumption is ( silly me ) that i can run ipsec between any 2 wireless servers .. no off-the-shelf-insecure-routers - or as Jeff points out, need to play with netgear fvm318 or equivalent ( looks like a jobs for "wireless-man" or is it "secure-man" :-) c ya alvin From npc at gangofone.com Tue Dec 16 09:40:47 2003 From: npc at gangofone.com (Nick Christenson) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 09:40:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: 802.11g and dvd In-Reply-To: <004501c3c34d$3ea8bdd0$8a34a8c0@ad.ofoto.com> Message-ID: <200312161740.hBGHeldl002811@prometheus.gangofone.com> > > - note that WEP is NOT secure ... ( its been cracked ) > > Definitely, and that point needs to be chanted in deep sonorous > tones with a tenor wailing away a few octaves higher. All the > while the message should be flashed in huge blinky > ten meters tall scrolling around the entire edge of a city > block. This is fine, but that doesn't mean that it isn't worthwhile to use WEP. Yes, even a moderately determined intruder can cut through WEP like it was soft cheese, but it's still posting a "must be *this* determined to crack my network" sign. Cracking a WEP encrypted network will take minutes to hours, depending on the traffic and luck. Cracking a non-WEP 802.11 network will take seconds. WEP may not afford much protection, but it is, as the saying goes, better than nothing. It's like using The Club on your car. It's not effective against a determined thief, but as long as the cars next to you don't use it, joy-riders will probably steal their car and not yours. > I am a little confused as to why vendors are trying to graft > a security protocol specific to wireless ethernet. Well, there are security issues that come up on wireless networks that aren't an issue on wired networks. It is entirely appropriate to consider these aspects when designing a wireless network security protocol. > It seems that > this would be an application for IPSec. (Of course that > does assume that you're running IP, but it is not a wire > replacement protocol like bluetooth.) 802.11i still has it's place, though. Not all currently deployed IP devices are IPSec capable. It would be nice to have some mechanism at the link layer to allow these machines to interoperate on a wireless network with at least a little bit of security. Of course, this doesn't mean that IPSec isn't an appropriate answer, but by itself, it has gaps in the wireless world. A combination of IPSec and 802.1x is pretty much state-of-the-art right now, at least until 802.11i, but this combination wasn't designed for wireless networks and there are still holes. For example, check out: http://www.cs.umd.edu/~waa/1x.pdf > It frustrates me that the home vendors keep getting close > to the mark, but missing it. Many vendors seem to > have all the necessary parts in one box: VPN, Firewall, > wireless hub, and a wired hub. The problem is how the > pieces are connected. The wireless hub should be > isolated behind the firewall, and you should only be > able to get out of the wireless net by setting up a > VPN connection. I would say that the problem is that the vendors walk up to the edge of providing a secure topology and then flinch when they get there, backing off to an insecure architecture. They clearly don't think the average consumer has a shot at getting things to work in a secure configuration. I fear they may be correct. -- Nick Christenson npc at jetcafe.org From fscked at pacbell.net Tue Dec 16 10:40:29 2003 From: fscked at pacbell.net (richard childers / kg6hac) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 10:40:29 -0800 Subject: 802.11b automated encryption key cycling (was Re: 802.11g and security) In-Reply-To: <200312161740.hBGHeldl002811@prometheus.gangofone.com> References: <200312161740.hBGHeldl002811@prometheus.gangofone.com> Message-ID: <3FDF519D.3050004@pacbell.net> I'm curious as to why someone has not deployed an 802.11b server that changes keys daily, or even more frequently? A mechanism for pushing the new keys out to existing clients and synchronizing its installation, under UNIX, would seem to be straightforward - with or without additional levels of encryption. For Windows, you'd probably need to install a special client, but for UNIX it could be done with a shellscript. Such a WEP server would go a long way towards rendering WEP-cracking utilities useless. Daemonized Networking Services uses these services inhouse and is developing a version for sale .... if there's any interest, feel free to contact us. Regards, -- richard -- Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services 945 Taraval Street, #105 San Francisco, CA 94116 USA [011.]1.415.759.5571 https://www.daemonized.com Nick Christenson wrote: >>> - note that WEP is NOT secure ... ( its been cracked ) >>> >>> >>Definitely, and that point needs to be chanted in deep sonorous >>tones with a tenor wailing away a few octaves higher. All the >>while the message should be flashed in huge blinky >>ten meters tall scrolling around the entire edge of a city >>block. >> >> > >This is fine, but that doesn't mean that it isn't worthwhile to use >WEP. Yes, even a moderately determined intruder can cut through WEP >like it was soft cheese, but it's still posting a "must be *this* >determined to crack my network" sign. Cracking a WEP encrypted network >will take minutes to hours, depending on the traffic and luck. Cracking >a non-WEP 802.11 network will take seconds. WEP may not afford much >protection, but it is, as the saying goes, better than nothing. >It's like using The Club on your car. It's not effective against a >determined thief, but as long as the cars next to you don't use it, >joy-riders will probably steal their car and not yours. > > From ulf at Alameda.net Wed Dec 17 20:56:55 2003 From: ulf at Alameda.net (Ulf Zimmermann) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 20:56:55 -0800 Subject: SGI O2 R5k power supply ? Message-ID: <20031218045655.GG16418@seven.alameda.net> Does anyone have a spare power supply I could borrow to test if my power supply is bad ? -- Regards, Ulf. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-865-0204 You can find my resume at: http://seven.Alameda.net/~ulf/resume.html From fscked at pacbell.net Thu Dec 18 16:41:12 2003 From: fscked at pacbell.net (richard childers / kg6hac) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 16:41:12 -0800 Subject: SGI O2 R5k power supply ? In-Reply-To: <20031218045655.GG16418@seven.alameda.net> References: <20031218045655.GG16418@seven.alameda.net> Message-ID: <3FE24928.1060301@pacbell.net> You can probably pick up a volt-ohm meter at Radio Shack for less than $15, and test to see if your power supply is putting out a solid 5 and 12 VDC, or not, very easily. Hope this helps ... -- richard Ulf Zimmermann wrote: >Does anyone have a spare power supply I could borrow to test if >my power supply is bad ? > > > -- Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services 945 Taraval Street, #105 San Francisco, CA 94116 USA [011.]1.415.759.5571 https://www.daemonized.com From alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com Thu Dec 18 17:08:28 2003 From: alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com (Alvin Oga) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 17:08:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: SGI O2 R5k power supply ? In-Reply-To: <3FE24928.1060301@pacbell.net> Message-ID: hi ya On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, richard childers / kg6hac wrote: > You can probably pick up a volt-ohm meter at Radio Shack for less than > $15, and test to see if your power supply is putting out a solid 5 and > 12 VDC, or not, very easily. you cannot test a power supply with a volt-ohm meter other than to tell you its on or off ... - wont tell you if its good or bad - but its a start ... you probably should use a (storage) scope to look for glitches and surges and load regulation .. glitches and surges is what makes the "bad supply" go bonkers - and good load ( like the real system connected to the ps ) vs a simulated load like a giant resistor fun stuff to test power supply ... especially when you do soemthing wrong and let out the blue smoke, after that, it just wont work if you let out the blue smoke .. c ya alvin From ulf at Alameda.net Thu Dec 18 17:28:32 2003 From: ulf at Alameda.net (Ulf Zimmermann) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 17:28:32 -0800 Subject: SGI O2 R5k power supply ? In-Reply-To: <3FE24928.1060301@pacbell.net> References: <20031218045655.GG16418@seven.alameda.net> <3FE24928.1060301@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20031219012831.GH16418@seven.alameda.net> No, it doesn't help, I don't know the pin layout and how it gets turned on (switch is in the chassis, not the PS, simular to ATX). Nothing happens when I press that button. On Thu, Dec 18, 2003 at 04:41:12PM -0800, richard childers / kg6hac wrote: > You can probably pick up a volt-ohm meter at Radio Shack for less than > $15, and test to see if your power supply is putting out a solid 5 and > 12 VDC, or not, very easily. > > Hope this helps ... > > -- richard > > > Ulf Zimmermann wrote: > > >Does anyone have a spare power supply I could borrow to test if > >my power supply is bad ? > > > > > > > > -- > > Richard Childers / Senior Engineer > Daemonized Networking Services > 945 Taraval Street, #105 > San Francisco, CA 94116 USA > [011.]1.415.759.5571 > https://www.daemonized.com > > > -- Regards, Ulf. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-865-0204 You can find my resume at: http://seven.Alameda.net/~ulf/resume.html From rsr at inorganic.org Thu Dec 18 18:39:19 2003 From: rsr at inorganic.org (Roy S. Rapoport) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 18:39:19 -0800 Subject: SGI O2 R5k power supply ? In-Reply-To: References: <3FE24928.1060301@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20031219023919.GA1491@nag.inorganic.org> On Thu, Dec 18, 2003 at 05:08:28PM -0800, Alvin Oga wrote: > fun stuff to test power supply ... especially when you do soemthing > wrong and let out the blue smoke, after that, it just wont work > if you let out the blue smoke .. Yeah, and a hint: That blue smoke seems to be power-supply-specific. When I accidentally released the blue smoke from my PC power supply recently and tried to replace the smoke with smoke from the spare power supply I had, neither ended up working. -roy From chuck+baylisa at snew.com Thu Dec 18 23:22:26 2003 From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 02:22:26 -0500 Subject: UPS Batteries (again) Message-ID: <20031219072226.GA5160@snew.com> Because I'm a bad man I didn't save this thread from last spring. I have a bigass (4U?) TrippLite 1400RM UPS at home. (a very very large UPS replaced several rack mount ones back 99 or so I some of us inherited these). Kinda nice. Large. Makes ringy sounds when power goes out. And 3 weeks ago, when we lost power, it provided it's nominal 1400 VA of power to 25 watts of equipment (soekris + switch) for almost 4 minutes. Hmmm. Something is afoot. Later, I unplugged all the stuff and put a lamp in. 60 watts. That lasted... well, a couple minutes. At this point, the UPS won't power up. I'm using (gasp) a surge suppressor. I feel so vulnerable and weak. The batteries had, er, grown. I had to take apart the UPS to get them out (5 panasonic cells as I recall - very common). I pushed (hard) on the batteries against a 4x4 on the floor to get the suckers out. They are 4 or 5 years old. I gotta replace. So, hopefully, you're still with me for the question: I can route the leads to the batteries out the back through a couple holes. I was pondering a big-ass marine deepcycle battery. No more power at once, but for LONGER.* It's in a regular room, so I'm not sure if that can work. Should I have ventilation to charge a marine battery? (the racks' new home is not yet a room, so the puters are in a spare bedroom). BARRING that, there was spring's discussion of batteries suppliers. Where can I get your regular old batteries for a real UPS? TIA, chuck * there are delusions of solar panels and figuring out if the UPS can be subverted to just be an inverter - drawing it's power most of the time from a gang of batteries which would be charged from the sky. And further delusions that many of these computing machines work fine on DC. I'll be able to provide 48VDC (or knocked to 12) for the soekris, netgear hubs, laptops, etc. Seems silly to go from DC to AC (80% efficient) and back down to LV DC with more loss. From alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com Fri Dec 19 00:21:57 2003 From: alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com (Alvin Oga) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 00:21:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: UPS Batteries (again) - hydrogen In-Reply-To: <20031219072226.GA5160@snew.com> Message-ID: hi ya chuck On Fri, 19 Dec 2003, Chuck Yerkes wrote: > I can route the leads to the batteries out the back through > a couple holes. I was pondering a big-ass marine deepcycle > battery. No more power at once, but for LONGER.* > > It's in a regular room, so I'm not sure if that can work. > Should I have ventilation to charge a marine battery? if it has regular water for its battery operation, you can recharge it but it will generate a few stray "hydrogen" if you use newer "gel cell" batteries ( no water ) than maybe its safer, but not as much wattage/amperage "sealed batteries" still leaks some hydrogen - recommended for smokers, houses w/ gas heaters, gas stoves, - gray/black/white smoke in this case :-) c ya alvin - i've used ( $30) plain old car batteries ... and ( $30 ) plain old car battery charger and the pentium PC run for 15 hrs... very nice - i changed the pc power supply to be +12vdc input instead of 110vac for the experiment From michael at halligan.org Fri Dec 19 00:45:49 2003 From: michael at halligan.org (Michael T. Halligan) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 00:45:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [OT] Guinness on Tap. Message-ID: I know this is very off-topic, but it seems a reasonable place to post. I know many fellow linux afficinados who are avid guinness drinkers. My wonderful kegerator of guinness, with it's guinness mix of 70/30 nitrogen/c02, is very foamy. My guestimate is the keg is now a bit more than half empty, having made it through two 4 person dinner parties, and 3 house-dwellers doing irish carbombs while coding over the past 2 weeks. The only way I can seem to prevent the foam is turning the gas pressure off, releasing the built up pressure, turning it back up to about 7psi, then pouring while periodically pulling the release-pressure valve to prevent foamage. Any thoughts on this? Perhaps after 3/4 of a keg, this is inevitable? ------------------- Michael T. Halligan Chief Geek Halligan Infrastructure Designs. http://www.halligan.org/ 2250 Jerrold Ave #11 San Francisco, CA 94124-1012 (415) 724.7998 - Mobile From wolfgang+gnus-baylisa at dailyplanet.dontspam.wsrcc.com Fri Dec 19 08:02:48 2003 From: wolfgang+gnus-baylisa at dailyplanet.dontspam.wsrcc.com (Wolfgang S. Rupprecht) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 08:02:48 -0800 Subject: UPS Batteries (again) References: <20031219072226.GA5160@snew.com> Message-ID: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes) writes: > I can route the leads to the batteries out the back through > a couple holes. I was pondering a big-ass marine deepcycle > battery. No more power at once, but for LONGER.* This is one of my daydreams too. Why pay close to $100 per 12v 11Ah gel cell to the UPS manufacturer when much cheaper and larger car/boat/golf-cart batteries are available. The thing that is stopping me from going with the biggest cheapest solutions, a car battery, is that a wet-cell battery leaks plenty of acid fumes. Any sheet-metal nearby starts to rust. The gel-cells are better but cause you to take a big hit in both the cost per battery size and in energy storage per battery size. Still, one can get some awfully nice gell-cell golf-cart or wheel-chair batteries. Then there is the other problem of electrical safety. High energy batteries are quite dangerous if something ever shorts their poles by mistake. It is a very easy way to start a fire. In telco buildings they take pains to move the batteries to a separate room and have strict rules about what kind of tools and objects are allowed into that room. Anything metal that is long enough to accidentally bridge the two electrical poles has to be completely wrapped in electrical tape or something else non-conductive. If I were to add a beefy outboard battery to my ups, I'd be concerned enough to put both ups and battery in a ventilated cage where I could be sure that the power wires (and battery connectors) could never be accidentally cut and shorted by something falling on them. It would be a real drag to come home to find the fire dept out front and the house a smoldering pile of ashes. > * there are delusions of solar panels and figuring out if the UPS > can be subverted to just be an inverter - drawing it's power most > of the time from a gang of batteries which would be charged from > the sky. West Marine has a nice set of very efficient DC to AC inverters/chargers meant for house-boat use. Their pricing assumes you are rich enough to maintain a boat. -wolfgang -- Wolfgang S. Rupprecht http://www.wsrcc.com/wolfgang/ The above "From:" address is valid. Don't mess with it. From chuck+baylisa at snew.com Fri Dec 19 14:37:34 2003 From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 17:37:34 -0500 Subject: UPS Batteries (again) In-Reply-To: References: <20031219072226.GA5160@snew.com> Message-ID: <20031219223734.GB27855@snew.com> Someone (who runs a FAQ on such) dismissed my UPS as Consumer Electronics. When pressed, he mentioned that in the sub- 5KV range, the waves are not terribly sinusiodal and that the electronics in general are designed to keep costs low rather than electro-survival high. In ripping open the batteries (rather the tape binding them), they are 5 x 6V panasonic sealed batteries. In series, that's 30V. Which strikes me as odd. It also removes the notion of tossing a truck or boat battery in the next room. AT this point, I'm likely going to pay "close to $100" for new batteries. Once I have the south facing roof with the killer sky view empanneled, I can revisit the fact that the "always on" machine (soekris) take 12-56 Volts DC, the switches will take 48VDC (and a netgear, 12VDC). The true rack machines aren't on always, so I can live with inverter power. Any batteries behind solar go in a space I have that's technically "crawl space" (12' high, but...) with ventilation, but general shelter. RE: Safety. Yeah, I put the volt meter on 4 truck batteries at a friend's place only to learn, moments later: "Oh, don't use that vohmeter. It's shorted out and mostly you just weld with it now :)." That explained the sparks and why the lead got shorter very quickly. Many modern (solar/wind fed) inverters give decent sine waves and have computer interfaces and are FAR more efficient than the ones made even in the early 90s. They also cost $3k. From jyetter at bluedogs.org Mon Dec 22 08:33:41 2003 From: jyetter at bluedogs.org (Joseph E. Yetter, Jr.) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 08:33:41 -0800 Subject: UPS Batteries (again) In-Reply-To: <20031219072226.GA5160@snew.com> Message-ID: <00bd01c3c8a9$5ce44d80$0201a8c0@gkar> > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-baylisa at baylisa.org [mailto:owner-baylisa at baylisa.org]On > Behalf Of Chuck Yerkes > I can route the leads to the batteries out the back through > a couple holes. I was pondering a big-ass marine deepcycle > battery. No more power at once, but for LONGER.* Gel cells and traditional lead-acid batteries have different charging profiles. This includes voltage during bulk charge, as well as during maintenance charge. They will work, just won't necessarily charge fully. Lead acid should also be equalized, i.e. once every 60 days or so you "overcharge" them so that any sulfation on the plates gets stirred up, and so forth. Try looking at the web pages for solar systems at www.realgoods.com . There are several kinds of lead-acid batteries, and all would *mostly* work here. Car starting: high amperage (cold cranking watts = CCW), but significant discharges can damage them. Marine: high amperage, somewhat more resistant to damage from discharge Deep-Cycle: lower amperage (CCW), but much more resistant to damage from discharge. > It's in a regular room, so I'm not sure if that can work. > Should I have ventilation to charge a marine battery? Yes, for any lead-acid. > * there are delusions of solar panels and figuring out if the UPS > can be subverted to just be an inverter - drawing it's power most > of the time from a gang of batteries which would be charged from > the sky. Probably would work. Gotta make sure it doesn't try to charge. BTW: I've put together my house's 24v solar system, with both lead-acid and gel-cells. Picked a profile for the charger/inverter and the solar charge controller that works ok for both of types. I disconnect the gel-cells when I equalize the lead-acid (deep-cycle) ones every 60 days. cheers -Joe From wolfgang+gnus-baylisa at dailyplanet.dontspam.wsrcc.com Mon Dec 22 09:50:07 2003 From: wolfgang+gnus-baylisa at dailyplanet.dontspam.wsrcc.com (Wolfgang S. Rupprecht) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 09:50:07 -0800 Subject: UPS Batteries (again) References: <20031219072226.GA5160@snew.com>, <00bd01c3c8a9$5ce44d80$0201a8c0@gkar> Message-ID: jyetter at bluedogs.org (Joseph E. Yetter, Jr.) writes: > BTW: I've put together my house's 24v solar system, with both > lead-acid and gel-cells. Have you found a good high-efficiency 24vdc-input ATX power supply yet or ar you going to run your computers from 120vac? I've been hoping to find a good power supply that would allow me to run an ATX computer directly from a pile of lead acid cells kept in the crawl space. The only one's I've been able to find are no-name brands that when they bother to tell you the efficiency at all, it is something downright awful like 60%-80%. -wolfgang -- Wolfgang S. Rupprecht http://www.wsrcc.com/wolfgang/ The above "From:" address is valid. Don't mess with it. From chuck+baylisa at snew.com Mon Dec 22 15:19:36 2003 From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 18:19:36 -0500 Subject: UPS Batteries (again) In-Reply-To: References: <00bd01c3c8a9$5ce44d80$0201a8c0@gkar> Message-ID: <20031222231936.GA9817@snew.com> Quoting Wolfgang S. Rupprecht (wolfgang+gnus-baylisa at dailyplanet.dontspam.wsrcc.com): > > jyetter at bluedogs.org (Joseph E. Yetter, Jr.) writes: > > BTW: I've put together my house's 24v solar system, with both > > lead-acid and gel-cells. > > Have you found a good high-efficiency 24vdc-input ATX power supply yet > or ar you going to run your computers from 120vac? > > I've been hoping to find a good power supply that would allow me to > run an ATX computer directly from a pile of lead acid cells kept in > the crawl space. The only one's I've been able to find are no-name > brands that when they bother to tell you the efficiency at all, it is > something downright awful like 60%-80%. Not sure what the power supply would be doing then... ATX outputs, AFAIR, +/- 12VDC and 5VDC. With DC input it's just a step up/step down conversion. My laptop takes 20V (I believe it's DC). There are many ways to step down 24VDC and 48VDC, improved lots even in the last couple years. The big part of switching power supplies it dealing with the 240/120VAC input and getting the voltages needed. While graphics (esp) tend to need bursts of power which may not be available from modest batteries, capacitors can provide that. More an issue with a car and/or car battery than a solar setup. That said, best value for energy usage is laptops (and LCD screens). Putting up solar to save money and using a 21" CRT and old 500MB drives (and then perhaps paying to keep the room cool) is sort of at odds with itself. That said, I do have computers from the dark ages (just not generally on). 60-80% sounds like typical inverter efficiencies, and your not inverting. From fscked at pacbell.net Mon Dec 22 16:46:45 2003 From: fscked at pacbell.net (richard childers / kg6hac) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 16:46:45 -0800 Subject: Wrapping Your Own Transformers (was: Re: UPS Batteries (again)) In-Reply-To: References: <20031219072226.GA5160@snew.com>, <00bd01c3c8a9$5ce44d80$0201a8c0@gkar> Message-ID: <3FE79075.2070805@pacbell.net> Wolfgang, My brother could probably build a custom power supply that would do everything you want it to, for around $100 plus materials ... if you're interested, let me know. Basically, transforming direct current is very similar to transferring power with gears. In the case of gears, you can adjust torque by varying the gear ratio. In the case of direct current, you adjust the voltage by varying the wire wrap ratio. Once you understand this, it is child's play to wrap cores to exactly the voltage desired. And wire isn't that expensive; drop into Radio Shack and tell them you want to wrap a transformer, and if you find a knowledgeable salesperson, they will lead you directly to the coils of fine copper wire and you can see for yourself that it's not that expensive. Regards, -- richard -- Richard Childers / Senior Engineer Daemonized Networking Services 945 Taraval Street, #105 San Francisco, CA 94116 USA [011.]1.415.759.5571 https://www.daemonized.com Wolfgang S. Rupprecht wrote: >jyetter at bluedogs.org (Joseph E. Yetter, Jr.) writes: > > >>BTW: I've put together my house's 24v solar system, with both >>lead-acid and gel-cells. >> >> > >Have you found a good high-efficiency 24vdc-input ATX power supply yet >or ar you going to run your computers from 120vac? > >I've been hoping to find a good power supply that would allow me to >run an ATX computer directly from a pile of lead acid cells kept in >the crawl space. The only one's I've been able to find are no-name >brands that when they bother to tell you the efficiency at all, it is >something downright awful like 60%-80%. > >-wolfgang > > From alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com Tue Dec 23 02:41:21 2003 From: alvin at Mail.Linux-Consulting.com (Alvin Oga) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 02:41:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: UPS Batteries (again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: hi ya wolfgang On Mon, 22 Dec 2003, Wolfgang S. Rupprecht wrote: > > jyetter at bluedogs.org (Joseph E. Yetter, Jr.) writes: > > BTW: I've put together my house's 24v solar system, with both > > lead-acid and gel-cells. > > Have you found a good high-efficiency 24vdc-input ATX power supply yet > or ar you going to run your computers from 120vac? you can get a +12v dc input atx ps http://www.Linux-1U.net/PowerSupp/DC/ - if you can do with 200W .. the smallest i know of is about the size of a laptop disk ( height, width, depth ) ... yes is atx compliant and is used and shipped ... ( mini-box.com ) - 150W - 200W is more than enough for 1 disk and some P4 motherboards c ya alvin From david at catwhisker.org Wed Dec 31 13:25:59 2003 From: david at catwhisker.org (David Wolfskill) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 13:25:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Local source for a specific nutdriver? Message-ID: <200312312125.hBVLPx7c014399@bunrab.catwhisker.org> I have a set of Xcelite "midget" nutdrivers that I've had since about 1970. They have served me well -- despite occasional abuse (such as the ~1/12 twist I managed to impart to the P10 (5/16") nutdriver's handle around 1973). Recently, I allowed someone else to use that P10 nutdriver, and the handle finally gave out in the line of duty. Both because of "reduced financial circumstances" and a strong desire to avoid wasting resources, I am disinclined to purchase an entire 11-piece (10 nutdrivers + a "torque amplifier" -- Xcelite's term for a "big, slip-on handle") replacement set; I want to buy a single P10 nutdriver (midget 5/16"; amber handle). I recall having seen individual Xcelite nutdrivers for such sets for sale ... back at ham-shacks and the like when I still lived in southern California. I've checked HSC/Halted, as well as the Fremont Fry's. And Home Depot; I'll likely check OSH next time we head that direction (though I'd expect them to stock more Craftsman stuff, since OSH is part of Sears). I've also checked eBay, amazon.com, yahoo.com, and did a Google search (which, I admit, turned up some leads, but shipping a $2.80 piece of merchandise across the country seems to be a bit wasteful,; indeed, some of the places apparently have (not-obviously-disclosed) "minimum purchase quantities"). I'd like to do business "locally" (live in Redwood City; work in Fremont now, so just about anywhere roughly "between" those works). I should point out, too, that "new" condition is not a prerequisite. Anyone have other suggestions? Thanks, david -- David H. Wolfskill david at catwhisker.org If you want true virus-protection for your PC, install a non-Microsoft OS on it. Plausible candidates include FreeBSD, Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, and Solaris (in alphabetical order). From star at starshine.org Wed Dec 31 14:40:02 2003 From: star at starshine.org (Heather Stern) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 14:40:02 -0800 Subject: Local source for a specific nutdriver? In-Reply-To: <200312312125.hBVLPx7c014399@bunrab.catwhisker.org> References: <200312312125.hBVLPx7c014399@bunrab.catwhisker.org> Message-ID: <20031231224002.GA8578@starshine.org> > slip-on handle") replacement set; I want to buy a single P10 nutdriver > (midget 5/16"; amber handle). > > I recall having seen individual Xcelite nutdrivers for such sets > for sale ... back at ham-shacks and the like when I still lived > in southern California. > > I've checked HSC/Halted, as well as the Fremont Fry's. And Home Depot; > I'll likely check OSH next time we head that direction (though I'd > expect them to stock more Craftsman stuff, since OSH is part of Sears). > > I've also checked eBay, amazon.com, yahoo.com, and did a Google search > (which, I admit, turned up some leads, but shipping a $2.80 piece of > merchandise across the country seems to be a bit wasteful,; indeed, some > of the places apparently have (not-obviously-disclosed) "minimum > purchase quantities"). I'd like to do business "locally" (live in > Redwood City; work in Fremont now, so just about anywhere roughly > "between" those works). > > I should point out, too, that "new" condition is not a prerequisite. I believee there's a store that caters to Ham enthusiasts in the same parking lot as Action computers; walk "north" toward 101 and it's between there and the next small parking lot section, iirc. WHether it has this thing, I dunno. I'll ask Terry if any of the local electrcial supply carry such things. . | . Heather Stern | star at starshine.org --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - consulting at starshine.org ' | ` Sysadmin Support and Training | (800) 938-4078