From joebsd1 at yahoo.com  Wed May  1 00:21:56 2002
From: joebsd1 at yahoo.com (joe bsd)
Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 00:21:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Verisign/NetSol: FW: Misleading Advertising
In-Reply-To: <HEEMKGJDBMHGLNPAFEJFGEAJCCAA.rjwitte@rjwitte.com>
Message-ID: <20020501072156.30086.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com>

I had two domains registered with verisign/NetSol.  I thought it
was a pain in the neck to make changes with NetSol.  There system
wasn't very intuitive.  

I found joker.com easier to use and make changes and cheaper.
About 12 Euro's Per name/Per year. (German company)

I transferred my verisign domain names to them.  Had to send a fax
to Germany.  Here is their price list.

https://joker.com/index.joker?mode=page&page=pricing

It looks like Verisign is in trouble.  I was watching CNBC last
week and they said verisign in losing a lot of customers and people
aren't renewing domainnames.  Take a look at their 6 month stock
chart.  It's brutal:

http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=VRSN&d=c&k=c1&a=v&p=s&t=6m&l=on&z=m&q=l


--Joe


--- "Russel J. Witte" <rjwitte at rjwitte.com> wrote:
> This is Verisign's response to my complaint that they began "billing"
> for a
> domain that doesn't expire for 6 more months. I never gave them any
> information concerning this domain, they simply harvested it from the
> opensrs database. BTW, I checked with the Silicon Valley Better Business
> Bureau ... check out their "unsatisfactory record" :
> 
> http://www.bbbsilicon.org/commonreport.html?compid=204813
> 
> Well, I guess I start moving my clients from Versign/Network Solutions,
> Verisign Cybercash/Payflow and Versign secure certificates... I no
> longer
> "trust" them and will consider their email to be spam.
> 
> Russ
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: websitesales at verisign.com [mailto:websitesales at verisign.com]
> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 9:16 AM
> To: rjwitte at rjwitte.com
> Subject: RE: Misleading Advertising
> 
> 
> Should you need further assistance regarding this matter, please
> reference
> Service Request # 1-1CZD9G.
> 
> Thank you for contacting VeriSign.
> 
> The domain name transfer and renewal notice that you recently received
> was
> sent to inform you of our domain name renewal rate. Since you are not
> required to renew your domain name with your current registrar, we hope
> you'll choose to transfer and renew your domain name with VeriSign.
> 
> Our current annual domain name renewal rate of $29.00 includes a variety
> of
> services FREE of charge. By transferring your domain name to VeriSign,
> you
> will extend your registration period by one year, gain FREE access to
> use
> our 24/7 customer support and have use of a our Web-based interface to
> manage your account.
> 
> Plus, we offer an array of value-added services such as personalized
> e-mail
> and customizable Web site packages. We are committed to giving you
> everything you need for a powerful Web presence.
> 
> If you have been thinking about transferring your domain registration,
> now
> is your chance. To take advantage of our $29.00 annual renewal rate,
> simply, complete and sign the transfer and renewal form we sent you -
> today.
> 
> Best regards,
> David R.
> 
> VeriSign, Inc.
> http://www.networksolutions.com
> 
> 
> TRACKING NUMBER: A00000321937-00002728517
> 
>      -----Original Message-----
> 
> 
>      From: rjwitte at rjwitte.com
>      Sent: Friday, Apr 26 2002 07:45 PM
>      To: websitesales at verisign.com
>      Cc: 3hearts at comcast.net
>      Subject: Misleading Advertising
> 
>      Dear Sir or Madam,
> 
> I recently received a "Domain Name Expiration Notice" for 6 domains that
> I
> registered for a client with another registrar. This "Notice" appears
> deceptively like a bill. I expect better from a company that advertises
> "The
> value of Trust". This is untrustworthy and unethical advertising and I
> believe this is causing enormous bad-will for your company. I urge you
> to
> reconsider this campaign.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Russel Witte
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com


From ulf at Alameda.net  Wed May  1 10:23:07 2002
From: ulf at Alameda.net (Ulf Zimmermann)
Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 10:23:07 -0700
Subject: Verisign/NetSol: FW: Misleading Advertising
In-Reply-To: <10447800.1020200523@[10.9.18.6]>; from jxh@jxh.com on Tue, Apr 30, 2002 at 09:02:03PM -0700
References: <HEEMKGJDBMHGLNPAFEJFGEAJCCAA.rjwitte@rjwitte.com> <10447800.1020200523@[10.9.18.6]>
Message-ID: <20020501102307.C19968@seven.alameda.net>

On Tue, Apr 30, 2002 at 09:02:03PM -0700, Jim Hickstein wrote:
> I fired NSI some time ago, shortly after they started selling the WHOIS 
> database in bulk.  Even after I took the trouble to opt out in writing, I 
> still get spam at that address (which I now use for nothing else; it's 
> slated to go directly to razor-report soon).
> 
> Check out www.domainmonger.com, an OpenSRS reseller that I've found 
> responsive to my needs.  One person there, when I asked whether they would 
> ever sell the billing address which they necessarily compel me to provide, 
> said, "Several people here would have to die horrible deaths before that 
> would happen."  So far, I'm happy.  Nothing to disclose, just a satisfied 
> customer.

I personaly went through with OpenSRS to become a reseller for them. At
this time I can register .com, .org, .net, .biz and .us with them. I had
already moved a few domains away from NetSol, either using other resellers
of OpenSRS or friends. Now all my domains are under my reseller setup.
Going to work on getting automatic payments in place at some point and
then will open up for public registrations (probably at $15/year on the
public interface). In the meantime if anyone from BayLisa needs a domain
moved, renewed, etc. feel free to ask me about it. All I care about is
getting the costs, ie if cash given, it will be $10/year, if Paypal
etc. is used and they charge me a fee, it would have to be $10 plus
the fee.

-- 
Regards, Ulf.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-865-0204
You can find my resume at: http://seven.Alameda.net/~ulf/resume.html


From enotify at sagecert.org  Sun May  5 23:12:49 2002
From: enotify at sagecert.org (SAGE Certification)
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 23:12:49 -0700
Subject: News from SAGE Certification
Message-ID: <200205060612.g466Cn617995@sage-web.sage.org>

[Approved with minor reservations, but no content change other than this
editorial remark -- dhw]

Dear Local User Group Representative,

Since launching cSAGE in late March, we?ve been working on improving our site content and wanted to give you an update. We appreciate everyone who has taken the time to give us feedback and suggestions on how we can better our website and our program.

New and improved Study Guide at: http://www.sagecert.org/study. 
We?ve revised our study guide to include helpful sample questions for both the cSAGE core exam and UNIX module. 

To save 10% off cSAGE exams, check out: http://www.sagecert.org/tenpercent. 
In Honor of Mother?s Day, we?re offering a 10% discount off exams. Take advantage of this savings and register during May 6-10. 

Announcing Contest winners: http://www.sagecert.org/contest.
Check out the winning entries from our ?Tell us why we?re the best Cert on the planet? contest!

SAGE Wire Coming Soon:
Check our site later this month for a new feature; we are implementing a Section with a Slashcode based discussion list for our users. 

Marketing Materials:
We thank everyone that requested marketing materials for distribution. The response to this request was beyond our expectations, so it was necessary to reprint more materials. If you made a request that has not yet been fulfilled, please be advised that the remaining requests were shipped May 1st, and should be on their way to you. Should you ever have a need for more materials (brochures or posters), please contact tanya at sage.org to arrange shipment.

Thank you for your continued interest in SAGE Certification Program. If you have any questions or ideas for us, please contact cert at sage.org.


Sincerely,

The SAGE Certification Team





From rick at linuxmafia.com  Tue May  7 11:14:09 2002
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 11:14:09 -0700
Subject: (forw) [linux-elitists] SpamAssassin at SMTP time with exim
Message-ID: <20020507181409.GJ29087@linuxmafia.com>

This is very, very sweet.

----- Forwarded message from Marc MERLIN <marc at merlins.org> -----

From: Marc MERLIN <marc at merlins.org>
To: linux-elitists at zgp.org
Cc: merlinizers at lists.alt.org
X-Mailer: Some Outlooks can't quote properly without this header
Subject: [linux-elitists] SpamAssassin at SMTP time with exim
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 11:01:56 -0700

Spammers, no more!

mail from: merlin at gandalf
250 OK
rcpt to: merlin at gandalf
250 Accepted
data
354 Enter message, ending with "." on a line by itself
From: merlin at gandalf
To: merlin at gandalf
Subject: $$$ Make Money Fast $$$ !!!

viagra 100% GARANTEE AMAZING FULL REFUND 
This is not spam
.
550-Heuristics guessed that this message was spam:
550 hits=14.8 required=1.0 trigger=12.0


Another reason to be using exim, if you aren't yet :-)
http://marc.merlins.org/linux/exim/sa.html

Marc
-- 
Microsoft is to operating systems & security ....
                                      .... what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
  
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/   |   Finger marc_f at merlins.org for PGP key
_______________________________________________
linux-elitists 
http://zgp.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-elitists

----- End forwarded message -----



From windsor at warthog.com  Tue May  7 13:09:14 2002
From: windsor at warthog.com (Rob Windsor)
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 15:09:14 -0500
Subject: (forw) [linux-elitists] SpamAssassin at SMTP time with exim 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 07 May 2002 11:14:09 PDT."
             <20020507181409.GJ29087@linuxmafia.com> 
Message-ID: <200205072009.g47K9Gp00358@warthog.com>

But were he to use sendmail, it has the option to reject the mail based on 
it's bogus envelope.  :>

*nudge* *nudge* *wink* *wink*

I think all MTAs now have the ability to filter based on headers and 
content, it's merely a matter of <a> spending the time writing the 
configuration, and <b> allowing your mailserver to load up now that it is 
actually digging through the content.

Rob++

On Tue, 07 May 2002 11:14:09 PDT, verily did Rick Moen write:

> This is very, very sweet.
> 
> ----- Forwarded message from Marc MERLIN <marc at merlins.org> -----
> 
> From: Marc MERLIN <marc at merlins.org>
> To: linux-elitists at zgp.org
> Cc: merlinizers at lists.alt.org
> X-Mailer: Some Outlooks can't quote properly without this header
> Subject: [linux-elitists] SpamAssassin at SMTP time with exim
> Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 11:01:56 -0700
> 
> Spammers, no more!
> 
> mail from: merlin at gandalf
> 250 OK
> rcpt to: merlin at gandalf
> 250 Accepted
> data
> 354 Enter message, ending with "." on a line by itself
> From: merlin at gandalf
> To: merlin at gandalf
> Subject: $$$ Make Money Fast $$$ !!!
> 
> viagra 100% GARANTEE AMAZING FULL REFUND 
> This is not spam
> .
> 550-Heuristics guessed that this message was spam:
> 550 hits=14.8 required=1.0 trigger=12.0
> 
> 
> Another reason to be using exim, if you aren't yet :-)
> http://marc.merlins.org/linux/exim/sa.html
> 
> Marc
> -- 
> Microsoft is to operating systems & security ....
>                                       .... what McDonalds is to gourmet cooki
>ng
>   
> Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/   |   Finger marc_f at merlins.org for PGP k
>ey
> _______________________________________________
> linux-elitists 
> http://zgp.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-elitists
> 
> ----- End forwarded message -----
----------------------------------------
Internet: windsor at warthog.com                             __o
Life: Rob at Carrollton.Texas.USA.Earth                    _`\<,_
                                                       (_)/ (_)
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful.





From wsprague100 at yahoo.com  Tue May  7 13:38:36 2002
From: wsprague100 at yahoo.com (Webb Sprague)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 13:38:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Open source referendum?
In-Reply-To: <200204281901.g3SJ12Q21933@linus>
Message-ID: <20020507203836.53255.qmail@web14206.mail.yahoo.com>

Discussion on S.V. Lug about possible referendum:

http://lists.svlug.org/archives/svlug/2002-May/040386.html

Check it out.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com


From lanning at lanning.cc  Tue May  7 13:37:14 2002
From: lanning at lanning.cc (Robert Hajime Lanning)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 13:37:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: (forw) [linux-elitists] SpamAssassin at SMTP time with exim
In-Reply-To: <200205072009.g47K9Gp00358@warthog.com> from "Rob Windsor" at May 07, 2002 03:09:14 PM
Message-ID: <200205072037.g47KbFR21899@lanning.cc>

And also with sendmail you now have a whole API for doing anything you want.
(milter)  The filter app doesn't even need to be running on the same platform.

Say, sendmail on linux and TrendMicro on solaris.

---- As written by Rob Windsor:
> 
> But were he to use sendmail, it has the option to reject the mail based on 
> it's bogus envelope.  :>
> 
> *nudge* *nudge* *wink* *wink*
> 
> I think all MTAs now have the ability to filter based on headers and 
> content, it's merely a matter of <a> spending the time writing the 
> configuration, and <b> allowing your mailserver to load up now that it is 
> actually digging through the content.
> 
> Rob++
[snip]

-- 
END OF LINE.



From chuck+baylisa at 2002.snew.com  Tue May  7 13:37:49 2002
From: chuck+baylisa at 2002.snew.com (Chuck Yerkes)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 13:37:49 -0700
Subject: (forw) [linux-elitists] SpamAssassin at SMTP time with exim
In-Reply-To: <20020507181409.GJ29087@linuxmafia.com>; from rick@linuxmafia.com on Tue, May 07, 2002 at 11:14:09AM -0700
References: <20020507181409.GJ29087@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <20020507133749.A31727@snew.com>

> Another reason to be using exim, if you aren't yet :-)

Or sendmail, qmail or Postfix.
As a sendmail milter, it should be contacting a daemon and avoid
the startup costs of perl for each message (I fear having perl
startup each time on a site that gets 200k+ messages/day - fairly
low corporate volume).



Quoting Rick Moen (rick at linuxmafia.com):
> This is very, very sweet.
> 
> ----- Forwarded message from Marc MERLIN <marc at merlins.org> -----
> 
> From: Marc MERLIN <marc at merlins.org>
> To: linux-elitists at zgp.org
> Cc: merlinizers at lists.alt.org
> X-Mailer: Some Outlooks can't quote properly without this header
> Subject: [linux-elitists] SpamAssassin at SMTP time with exim
> Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 11:01:56 -0700
> 
> Spammers, no more!
> 
> mail from: merlin at gandalf
> 250 OK
> rcpt to: merlin at gandalf
> 250 Accepted
> data
> 354 Enter message, ending with "." on a line by itself
> From: merlin at gandalf
> To: merlin at gandalf
> Subject: $$$ Make Money Fast $$$ !!!
> 
> viagra 100% GARANTEE AMAZING FULL REFUND 
> This is not spam
> .
> 550-Heuristics guessed that this message was spam:
> 550 hits=14.8 required=1.0 trigger=12.0
> 
> 
> Another reason to be using exim, if you aren't yet :-)
> http://marc.merlins.org/linux/exim/sa.html
> 
> Marc
> -- 
> Microsoft is to operating systems & security ....
>                                       .... what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
>   
> Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/   |   Finger marc_f at merlins.org for PGP key
> _______________________________________________
> linux-elitists 
> http://zgp.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-elitists
> 
> ----- End forwarded message -----



From dannyman at toldme.com  Tue May  7 13:57:28 2002
From: dannyman at toldme.com (Danny Howard)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 13:57:28 -0700
Subject: *****SPAM***** (forw) [linux-elitists] SpamAssassin at SMTP time with exim
In-Reply-To: <20020507181409.GJ29087@linuxmafia.com>; from rick@linuxmafia.com on Tue, May 07, 2002 at 11:14:09AM -0700
References: <20020507181409.GJ29087@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <20020507135728.V27725@pianosa.catch22.org>

On Tue, May 07, 2002 at 11:14:09AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> SPAM: -------------------- Start SpamAssassin results ----------------------
> SPAM: This mail is probably spam.  The original message has been altered
> SPAM: so you can recognise or block similar unwanted mail in future, using
> SPAM: the built-in mail filtering support in your mail reader.
> SPAM: 
> SPAM: Content analysis details:   (7.7 hits, 5 required)
> SPAM: Hit! (0.1 points)  BODY: /\${3,}/
> SPAM: Hit! (1.4 points)  BODY: /FULL REFUND/
> SPAM: Hit! (3.4 points)  BODY: /AMAZING/
> SPAM: Hit! (2.8 points)  BODY: /this is not spam/i
> SPAM: 
> SPAM: -------------------- End of SpamAssassin results ---------------------
> 
> This is very, very sweet.
[...]

Who needs exim?  I have procmail.

-danny



From marc at merlins.org  Tue May  7 14:19:33 2002
From: marc at merlins.org (Marc MERLIN)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 14:19:33 -0700
Subject: (forw) [linux-elitists] SpamAssassin at SMTP time with exim
In-Reply-To: <20020507133749.A31727@snew.com> <200205072037.g47KbFR21899@lanning.cc> <200205072009.g47K9Gp00358@warthog.com>
References: <20020507181409.GJ29087@linuxmafia.com> <20020507133749.A31727@snew.com> <200205072009.g47K9Gp00358@warthog.com> <200205072037.g47KbFR21899@lanning.cc> <20020507181409.GJ29087@linuxmafia.com> <200205072009.g47K9Gp00358@warthog.com>
Message-ID: <20020507211932.GB30327@merlins.org>

On Tue, May 07, 2002 at 03:09:14PM -0500, Rob Windsor wrote:
> But were he to use sendmail, it has the option to reject the mail based on 
> it's bogus envelope.  :>
 
Exim does SMTP  callbacks, which is a lot more  effective than what sendmail
does.
The test didn't have FQDNs because it  was done on my laptop where it worked
since gandalf was the local hostname.

SMTP callbacks totally rule:
http://sourceforge.net/docman/display_doc.php?docid=6747&group_id=1#callback
 
> I think all MTAs now have the ability to filter based on headers and 
> content, it's merely a matter of <a> spending the time writing the 
> configuration, and <b> allowing your mailserver to load up now that it is 
> actually digging through the content.
 
You can do pretty much anything you want with sendmail milters, but the
questions are:
1) does the milter exist?
2) if not, are you willing to write it?

As far as I  know, there is no sendmail milter do  to exim's SMTP callbacks,
or SpamAssassin at SMTP time.

Sendmail, been there, done that, happy with exim now.

On Tue, May 07, 2002 at 01:37:49PM -0700, Chuck Yerkes wrote:
> > Another reason to be using exim, if you aren't yet :-)
> 
> Or sendmail, qmail or Postfix.
> As  a sendmail  milter, it  should be  contacting a  daemon and  avoid the
> startup costs  of perl for each  message (I fear having  perl startup each
> time  on a  site  that  gets 200k+  messages/day  -  fairly low  corporate
> volume).

If you look at the code, you'll see  that I am using spamc, which is a small
C program that talks to spamd, the perl daemon that runs SpamAssassin
(in other words, no, you do not have to launch perl for each mail)

Again, if you're  a C coder, you  can code this into your  favorite MTA, I'm
just saying it's there for exim, and not the other ones yet :-)
(BTW, I'm not  a C coder, I  just play one on  TV, feel free to  laugh at my
code and send me unified diffs)
http://marc.merlins.org/linux/exim/files/local_scan.c

Marc
-- 
Microsoft is to operating systems & security ....
                                      .... what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
  
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/   |   Finger marc_f at merlins.org for PGP key



From dannyman at toldme.com  Tue May  7 14:36:51 2002
From: dannyman at toldme.com (Danny Howard)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 14:36:51 -0700
Subject: Open source referendum?
In-Reply-To: <20020507203836.53255.qmail@web14206.mail.yahoo.com>; from wsprague100@yahoo.com on Tue, May 07, 2002 at 01:38:36PM -0700
References: <200204281901.g3SJ12Q21933@linus> <20020507203836.53255.qmail@web14206.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020507143651.Y27725@pianosa.catch22.org>

On Tue, May 07, 2002 at 01:38:36PM -0700, Webb Sprague wrote:
> Discussion on S.V. Lug about possible referendum:
> 
> http://lists.svlug.org/archives/svlug/2002-May/040386.html

YM "Ballot Initiative," HTH

It doesn't look like the sentiment really caught on over there.

Is there a lawyer among us?  We could adapt the Peruvian bill and submit
it to the California legislature.  Something along the lines of:

- State agencies can only purchase software for which the company also
  supplies source code.
- In electronic transactions with private citizens, the state must
  adhere to document formats, network protocols, and the like, which
  adhere to standards that are sufficiently documented in the public
  domain such that any third party could reasonably implement them.

The biggest problem I could see to such a bill is a scenario where the
only available software implementation is from a vendor who would demand
an obscene amount of money for a source-code license.

And the biggest impact would be on vendors of proprietary software who
recognize the importance of supplying software to the school system.  If
you want to familiarize high school and college students with Microsoft
Office running on Microsoft Windows, you'll have to supply the school
with sufficient source code such that the CS students could study the
implementation and patch the software. :)

I'd reckon one of the local lawmakers would at least humor us far enough
to bring it to committee.

-- 
http://dannyman.toldme.com/



From dannyman at toldme.com  Tue May  7 14:39:25 2002
From: dannyman at toldme.com (Danny Howard)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 14:39:25 -0700
Subject: Open source referendum?
In-Reply-To: <20020507143651.Y27725@pianosa.catch22.org>; from dannyman@toldme.com on Tue, May 07, 2002 at 02:36:51PM -0700
References: <200204281901.g3SJ12Q21933@linus> <20020507203836.53255.qmail@web14206.mail.yahoo.com> <20020507143651.Y27725@pianosa.catch22.org>
Message-ID: <20020507143925.Z27725@pianosa.catch22.org>

There's interesting stuff on the Peruvian bill at http://lnk.to/peru .

-danny



From marc at merlins.org  Tue May  7 14:42:16 2002
From: marc at merlins.org (Marc MERLIN)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 14:42:16 -0700
Subject: SpamAssassin at SMTP time with exim
In-Reply-To: <20020507135728.V27725@pianosa.catch22.org>
References: <20020507181409.GJ29087@linuxmafia.com> <20020507135728.V27725@pianosa.catch22.org>
Message-ID: <20020507214216.GC21067@merlins.org>

On Tue, May 07, 2002 at 01:57:28PM -0700, Danny Howard wrote:
> 
> Who needs exim?  I have procmail.

I have procmail too :-)

http://marc.merlins.org/linux/exim/sa.html
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why?

The reason why I  wanted SpamAssassin in local scan is that  I don't want to
accept the damn spam in the first place.

* While my  code lets you  do that, I  don't like to  send mails to  the bit
  bucket, so you need to bounce them.
* Once you accept the spam, you can't bounce it half the time, or you bounce
  it to an innocent whose Email was  forged as an envelope sender (some spam
  even forges the bounce address to you)
* If I refuse spam  at SMTP time, it will remove the  spam addresses from at
  least  a few  lists (they  gotta  clean their  lists eventually  otherwise
  they'd spend more time Emailing dead addresses than good ones)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Marc
-- 
Microsoft is to operating systems & security ....
                                      .... what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
  
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/   |   Finger marc_f at merlins.org for PGP key



From dannyman at toldme.com  Tue May  7 14:48:35 2002
From: dannyman at toldme.com (Danny Howard)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 14:48:35 -0700
Subject: SpamAssassin at SMTP time with exim
In-Reply-To: <20020507214216.GC21067@merlins.org>; from marc@merlins.org on Tue, May 07, 2002 at 02:42:16PM -0700
References: <20020507181409.GJ29087@linuxmafia.com> <20020507135728.V27725@pianosa.catch22.org> <20020507214216.GC21067@merlins.org>
Message-ID: <20020507144835.A27725@pianosa.catch22.org>

On Tue, May 07, 2002 at 02:42:16PM -0700, Marc MERLIN wrote:
> On Tue, May 07, 2002 at 01:57:28PM -0700, Danny Howard wrote:
> > 
> > Who needs exim?  I have procmail.
> 
> I have procmail too :-)
> 
> http://marc.merlins.org/linux/exim/sa.html
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Why?
> 
> The reason why I  wanted SpamAssassin in local scan is that  I don't want to
> accept the damn spam in the first place.
[...]

Hrmmmm.

What about false positives?  This might not bother you, personally, but:

What about user concerns for false positives?

Lastly, I'd just as soon spammers not catch on that their messages are
being filtered, based on heuristic properties that they can avoid.  I
have a sneaky suspicion that a handful of spammers are already checking
their messages against SpamAssassin.  I have a feeling that before long,
SpamAssasin will lose its efficacy, thanks to an ever-increasing spiral
of spammers making SA-friendly e-mails, and SA having to adapt to ever
more ingenious heuristics.

Though, I was really just trying to be cute and point out that the
technology that you were advocating is already censoring you. :D

-danny



From david at catwhisker.org  Tue May  7 15:09:05 2002
From: david at catwhisker.org (David Wolfskill)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 15:09:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Open source referendum?
In-Reply-To: <20020507143651.Y27725@pianosa.catch22.org>
Message-ID: <200205072209.g47M95HS084329@bunrab.catwhisker.org>

>Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 14:36:51 -0700
>From: Danny Howard <dannyman at toldme.com>

>Is there a lawyer among us?

BayLISA has an Attorney-at-Law, yes.

>We could adapt the Peruvian bill and submit
>it to the California legislature.  Something along the lines of:

Maybe.  BayLISA is a particular form of not-for-profit corporation, and
if it's the same kind USENIX is, political action is strictly forbidden
(as far as BayLISA, as an entity -- vs. members of BayLISA not acting in
a way to represent BayLISA -- is concerned).

Cheers,
david       (links to my resume at http://www.catwhisker.org/~david)
-- 
David H. Wolfskill				david at catwhisker.org
Microsoft products -- for those times when reliability just doesn't matter.


From jgross at stimpy.net  Tue May  7 15:28:51 2002
From: jgross at stimpy.net (Joe Gross)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 15:28:51 -0700
Subject: SpamAssassin at SMTP time with exim
In-Reply-To: <20020507144835.A27725@pianosa.catch22.org>
References: <20020507181409.GJ29087@linuxmafia.com> <20020507135728.V27725@pianosa.catch22.org> <20020507214216.GC21067@merlins.org> <20020507144835.A27725@pianosa.catch22.org>
Message-ID: <20020507222851.GA52808@felix.stimpy.net>

On Tue, May 07, 2002 at 02:48:35PM -0700, Danny Howard wrote:
> 
> Lastly, I'd just as soon spammers not catch on that their messages are
> being filtered, based on heuristic properties that they can avoid.  I
> have a sneaky suspicion that a handful of spammers are already checking
> their messages against SpamAssassin.  I have a feeling that before long,
> SpamAssasin will lose its efficacy, thanks to an ever-increasing spiral
> of spammers making SA-friendly e-mails, and SA having to adapt to ever
> more ingenious heuristics.

I disagree, at least as long as spamassassin, or systems like it are used by
the minority of users. For now spamassassin appears to work only with UNIX.

UNIX users are already less than 1% of spam recipients. UNIX users who use
spamassassin are only a tiny fraction of that. It's not worth a spammer's
time to format a message such that it gets past spamassassin for that very
small percentage of users, espeically since that group of users tend to act
most unfavorably towards spam.

In fact, looking at this way if they were to spend any time or energy on it,
and they won't, they would rather have all their spam be caught by
spamassassin so they didn't have to deal with us complaining to their ISP.

The corollary to this their is that it also in our best interest to never
port spamassassin to a more popular platform and just keep this goody for
ourselves.


From dannyman at toldme.com  Tue May  7 15:44:19 2002
From: dannyman at toldme.com (Danny Howard)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 15:44:19 -0700
Subject: SpamAssassin at SMTP time with exim
In-Reply-To: <20020507222851.GA52808@felix.stimpy.net>; from jgross@stimpy.net on Tue, May 07, 2002 at 03:28:51PM -0700
References: <20020507181409.GJ29087@linuxmafia.com> <20020507135728.V27725@pianosa.catch22.org> <20020507214216.GC21067@merlins.org> <20020507144835.A27725@pianosa.catch22.org> <20020507222851.GA52808@felix.stimpy.net>
Message-ID: <20020507154419.B27725@pianosa.catch22.org>

On Tue, May 07, 2002 at 03:28:51PM -0700, Joe Gross wrote:
> On Tue, May 07, 2002 at 02:48:35PM -0700, Danny Howard wrote:
> > 
> > I have a sneaky suspicion that a handful of spammers are already
> > checking their messages against SpamAssassin.  I have a feeling that
> > before long, SpamAssasin will lose its efficacy, thanks to an
> > ever-increasing spiral of spammers making SA-friendly e-mails, and
> > SA having to adapt to ever more ingenious heuristics.
> 
> I disagree, at least as long as SpamAssasin, or systems like it are
> used by the minority of users. For now SpamAssasin appears to work
> only with UNIX.
> 
> UNIX users are already less than 1% of spam recipients. UNIX users who
> use
[...]

Well, everyone on this list at least aspires to manage Large Unix
Installations, many of which are capable of supporting SpamAssassin for
large user communities, who don't themselves run Unix.  Therefor, the
strategies that we employ when implementing SA at an enterprise scale
are totally up for discussion.

Marc or Rick made the best response to my reservations in that SA relies
somewhat on collating information from different blackhole lists.  That
attribute of your message is difficult to munge, so we're less likely to
see spammers successfully competing with SAs heuristics.

I think the ultimate solution will be for anyone who receives unfiltered
spam to tag its characteristics in to a distributed network, which can
constantly tune the criteria used to determine a messages spamminess.
The first versions of this strategy already exist, I believe.  Vipul's
Razor?

-- 
http://dannyman.toldme.com/



From david at catwhisker.org  Tue May  7 16:07:13 2002
From: david at catwhisker.org (David Wolfskill)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 16:07:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Open source referendum?
In-Reply-To: <20020507154556.C27725@pianosa.catch22.org>
Message-ID: <200205072307.g47N7Ddf084574@bunrab.catwhisker.org>

>Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 15:45:56 -0700
>From: Danny Howard <dannyman at toldme.com>

>On Tue, May 07, 2002 at 03:09:05PM -0700, David Wolfskill wrote:

>> Maybe.  BayLISA is a particular form of not-for-profit corporation,
>> and if it's the same kind USENIX is, political action is strictly
>> forbidden (as far as BayLISA, as an entity -- vs. members of BayLISA
>> not acting in a way to represent BayLISA -- is concerned).

>So, is it allowed on the mailing list? :)

Well, I had been approving your posts manually, since you were sending
them from an address that wasn't subscribed....

>* Flashbacks of Joe BSD and his Visa crusade.

Right; thanks for being aware of this.  :-}

Well, IANAL, but I think a reasonably clear distinction can be made
between discussing a matter (using BayLISA resources to do so) on
which BayLISA is not permitted to take a position, vs. having an officer
(or even a member) of BayLISA purport to repesent BayLISA's wishes with
respect to such a forbidden topic.

And I'm postmaster@, unless/until someone else volunteers to share that
job -- including being default owner of certain lists, including
baylisa at .

So sure, go for it.  Just be mindful that pending clarification from Dan
(BayLISA's attorney), we shouldn't be having anyone claiming to
represent BayLISA's "opinion" in such matters.

Cheers,
david       (links to my resume at http://www.catwhisker.org/~david)
-- 
David H. Wolfskill				david at catwhisker.org
Microsoft products -- for those times when reliability just doesn't matter.


From chuck+baylisa at snew.com  Tue May  7 16:45:22 2002
From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 16:45:22 -0700
Subject: SpamAssassin at SMTP time with exim
In-Reply-To: <20020507154419.B27725@pianosa.catch22.org>; from dannyman@toldme.com on Tue, May 07, 2002 at 03:44:19PM -0700
References: <20020507181409.GJ29087@linuxmafia.com> <20020507135728.V27725@pianosa.catch22.org> <20020507214216.GC21067@merlins.org> <20020507144835.A27725@pianosa.catch22.org> <20020507222851.GA52808@felix.stimpy.net> <20020507154419.B27725@pianosa.catch22.org>
Message-ID: <20020507164522.C31643@snew.com>

(trimmed headers since everyone is on the list)

Quoting Danny Howard (dannyman at toldme.com):
> On Tue, May 07, 2002 at 03:28:51PM -0700, Joe Gross wrote:
> > On Tue, May 07, 2002 at 02:48:35PM -0700, Danny Howard wrote:
...
> I think the ultimate solution will be for anyone who receives unfiltered
> spam to tag its characteristics in to a distributed network, which can
> constantly tune the criteria used to determine a messages spamminess.
> The first versions of this strategy already exist, I believe.  Vipul's
> Razor?

Which is very similiar to BrightLight's technique.  BL has a
fee and an extensive infrastructure devoted to identifying
SPAM and, more important for many businesses, it has accountability.

That said, I watch Vipul's Razor with great interest as an
individual.  My concern, after light perusal, is that tainting
the data doesn't take a lot of effort from a "Bad Guy."


From jxh at jxh.com  Tue May  7 16:51:03 2002
From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein)
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 16:51:03 -0700
Subject: Open source referendum?
In-Reply-To: <200205072307.g47N7Ddf084574@bunrab.catwhisker.org>
References: <200205072307.g47N7Ddf084574@bunrab.catwhisker.org>
Message-ID: <140120000.1020815463@jxh.mirapoint.com>

> So sure, go for it.  Just be mindful that pending clarification from Dan
> (BayLISA's attorney), we shouldn't be having anyone claiming to
> represent BayLISA's "opinion" in such matters.

I concur.  Any official position would take the form of a resolution at a 
BLW meeting, and appear in the minutes.  I think we can safely say that no 
such resolution is forthcoming on this topic.

-President, BayLISA


From star at starshine.org  Tue May  7 17:08:36 2002
From: star at starshine.org (Heather Stern)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 17:08:36 -0700
Subject: SpamAssassin at SMTP time with exim
In-Reply-To: <20020507144835.A27725@pianosa.catch22.org>
References: <20020507181409.GJ29087@linuxmafia.com> <20020507135728.V27725@pianosa.catch22.org> <20020507214216.GC21067@merlins.org> <20020507144835.A27725@pianosa.catch22.org>
Message-ID: <20020507170836.A23623@gemini.starshine.org>

> Hrmmmm.
> 
> What about false positives?  This might not bother you, personally, but:
 
I can speak to that, as having had a client where allowing some spam was
necessary because he wants no good-mail lost due to false hits.

At that client, all things that flagged as spam were dropped into a
moderator account.  The local junior admin had a daily task to clean
the spam trap.  Hitting "d" is such a cheerful thing :)  If anything
snuck through that should not have been nailed, they're added to the 
whitelist actively.

That way only the moderators need to deal with that shlock.  Much like 
the efforts of David here to defend us :)

> What about user concerns for false positives?
> 
> Lastly, I'd just as soon spammers not catch on that their messages are
> being filtered, based on heuristic properties that they can avoid.  

I'd rather that they catch on that I'll send their butt to the state's
attorney, if I can catch 'em.

> I
> have a sneaky suspicion that a handful of spammers are already checking
> their messages against SpamAssassin.  I have a feeling that before long,
> SpamAssasin will lose its efficacy, thanks to an ever-increasing spiral
> of spammers making SA-friendly e-mails, and SA having to adapt to ever
> more ingenious heuristics.
 
comparisons can be fascinating heuristics, all on their own.

For those who can afford the burden it places on new contacts, you can do
a particularly twisted thing with list software, and make it help you with
this;  make them "have to subscribe" or use the password-of-the-day to
get by the receptionist.   Doesn't work for certain kinds of mail accounts,
but it's a thought.

> Though, I was really just trying to be cute and point out that the
> technology that you were advocating is already censoring you. :D
> 
> -danny


 Heather Stern - star at starshine.org -*- Starshine Technical Services
        Sysadmin Support & Training -*- consulting at starshine.org 


From jxh at jxh.com  Tue May  7 22:03:25 2002
From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein)
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 22:03:25 -0700
Subject: SpamAssassin at SMTP time with exim
In-Reply-To: <20020507170836.A23623@gemini.starshine.org>
References: <20020507181409.GJ29087@linuxmafia.com>
 <20020507135728.V27725@pianosa.catch22.org>
 <20020507214216.GC21067@merlins.org>
 <20020507144835.A27725@pianosa.catch22.org>
 <20020507170836.A23623@gemini.starshine.org>
Message-ID: <46956382.1020809004@[10.9.18.6]>

> For those who can afford the burden it places on new contacts, you can do
> a particularly twisted thing with list software, and make it help you with
> this;  make them "have to subscribe" or use the password-of-the-day to
> get by the receptionist.   Doesn't work for certain kinds of mail
> accounts, but it's a thought.

I once conceived (a long time ago), but of course never implemented, a 
thing I call "secretary".  Anything not on the whitelist goes to it, and it 
autoreplies with, basically, "Do you have an appointment?".  It generates a 
cookie that a correspondent can use in a reply to make the appointment, 
i.e. get to the human (but not necessarily onto the whitelist).

Surely the world has caught up with me, and this is available, now, by some 
name.  Right?  I've seen pieces of it, but not exactly this way, and not 
that work in anything but a UNIX and /var/mail environment, where the MUA 
and MTA run on the same host.

The problem with all of these things turns out to be how easy or hard it is 
for the user to manage the whitelist.  For a single user, vi(1) and 
procmail might be OK, but I want to offer this solution to my customers[1], 
and writing the code for the user interface (surprise!) is where theory and 
practice part company.  Even for myself, my mail is not delivered to a UNIX 
account, so procmail really isn't an option.  And with all due respect to 
Heather, I don't want procmail wrangling to turn into a full-time job.

[1] Plug: www.imap-partners.net.  I run an IMAP server (a Mirapoint box) 
which otherwise does a good job of dealing with the user interface by 
itself.  But this is an area (currently) where I must add value externally, 
and it's a lot of work.  Even the user-accessible filters in the box can't 
"see" a user's address book, so the whitelist must be constructed and 
maintained very laboriously.  So much so that I frankly haven't bothered. 
And I get a lot of spam, as I've been in WHOIS for many, many years.



From claw at kanga.nu  Tue May  7 22:06:15 2002
From: claw at kanga.nu (J C Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 22:06:15 -0700
Subject: SpamAssassin at SMTP time with exim 
In-Reply-To: Message from Danny Howard <dannyman@toldme.com> 
   of "Tue, 07 May 2002 15:44:19 PDT." <20020507154419.B27725@pianosa.catch22.org> 
References: <20020507181409.GJ29087@linuxmafia.com> <20020507135728.V27725@pianosa.catch22.org> <20020507214216.GC21067@merlins.org> <20020507144835.A27725@pianosa.catch22.org> <20020507222851.GA52808@felix.stimpy.net>  <20020507154419.B27725@pianosa.catch22.org> 
Message-ID: <22668.1020834375@kanga.nu>

On Tue, 7 May 2002 15:44:19 -0700 
Danny Howard <dannyman at toldme.com> wrote:

> I think the ultimate solution will be for anyone who receives
> unfiltered spam to tag its characteristics in to a distributed
> network, which can constantly tune the criteria used to determine a
> messages spamminess.  The first versions of this strategy already
> exist, I believe.  Vipul's Razor?

1) SpamAssassiin can auto-submit to Vipuls' Razor

2) Vipul's Razor has a painfully high false positive rate here

3) A significant percentage of the SPAM I receive now is mail merged (my
address in the To:, name or address in the message body, etc -- not
susceptible to Vipul as the hashed vary.

-- 
J C Lawrence                
---------(*)                Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. 
claw at kanga.nu               He lived as a devil, eh?		  
http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/  Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live.


From rsr at inorganic.org  Wed May  8 00:02:39 2002
From: rsr at inorganic.org (Roy S. Rapoport)
Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 00:02:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SpamAssassin at SMTP time with exim
In-Reply-To: <46956382.1020809004@[10.9.18.6]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0205080002040.20127-100000@fold>

On Tue, 7 May 2002, Jim Hickstein wrote:
> I once conceived (a long time ago), but of course never implemented, a
> thing I call "secretary".  Anything not on the whitelist goes to it, and it
> autoreplies with, basically, "Do you have an appointment?".  It generates a
> cookie that a correspondent can use in a reply to make the appointment,
> i.e. get to the human (but not necessarily onto the whitelist).
>
> Surely the world has caught up with me, and this is available, now, by some
> name.  Right?  I've seen pieces of it, but not exactly this way, and not
> that work in anything but a UNIX and /var/mail environment, where the MUA
> and MTA run on the same host.

I believe that spamcop lets you do this.

-roy



From marc at merlins.org  Wed May  8 00:43:44 2002
From: marc at merlins.org (Marc MERLIN)
Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 00:43:44 -0700
Subject: SpamAssassin at SMTP time with exim
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0205080002040.20127-100000@fold>
References: <46956382.1020809004@[10.9.18.6]> <Pine.GSO.4.33.0205080002040.20127-100000@fold>
Message-ID: <20020508074343.GK23095@merlins.org>

On Wed, May 08, 2002 at 12:02:39AM -0700, Roy S. Rapoport wrote:
> On Tue, 7 May 2002, Jim Hickstein wrote:
> > I once conceived (a long time ago), but of course never implemented, a
> > thing I call "secretary".  Anything not on the whitelist goes to it, and it
> > autoreplies with, basically, "Do you have an appointment?".  It generates a
> > cookie that a correspondent can use in a reply to make the appointment,
> > i.e. get to the human (but not necessarily onto the whitelist).
> >
> > Surely the world has caught up with me, and this is available, now, by some
> > name.  Right?  I've seen pieces of it, but not exactly this way, and not
> > that work in anything but a UNIX and /var/mail environment, where the MUA
> > and MTA run on the same host.
> 
> I believe that spamcop lets you do this.

TDMA is actually what you are looking for.

Note that I do not answer those handshakes for people who send me back a
cookie. I admin sourceforge.net, and I get enough of these in response to
mailman reminders or whatever.
TDMA can work if you only Email a few friends.
If you are active on the internet, it's really an annoyance for others.

I could envision spamassassin giving mails to TDMA though:
"I don't require confirmation usually, but this mail looks like spam. Please
do foo to make sure I read it"

Marc
-- 
Microsoft is to operating systems & security ....
                                      .... what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
  
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/   |   Finger marc_f at merlins.org for PGP key



From jxh at jxh.com  Wed May  8 10:14:39 2002
From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein)
Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 10:14:39 -0700
Subject: SpamAssassin at SMTP time with exim
In-Reply-To: <20020508074343.GK23095@merlins.org>
References: <46956382.1020809004@[10.9.18.6]>
 <Pine.GSO.4.33.0205080002040.20127-100000@fold>
 <20020508074343.GK23095@merlins.org>
Message-ID: <0.1020878079@jxh.mirapoint.com>

>> I believe that spamcop lets you do this.
>
> TDMA [sic] is actually what you are looking for.

I looked at TMDA, and it's the one that assumes the MUA and MTA are the 
same host, and that the user is sitting in front of it.  It's not easily 
remotely controllable, and I didn't want to expend the effort to add this 
to it.

> I could envision spamassassin giving mails to TDMA though:
> "I don't require confirmation usually, but this mail looks like spam.
> Please do foo to make sure I read it"

That sounds like a reasonable approach.  False positives would then have a 
sporting chance of fixing themselves.  Of course, if you autoreply to all 
spam, it increases the traffic on the network, and confirms your address as 
deliverable, so while this may solve my personal problem, it doesn't scale 
at all well.



From marc_news at vasoftware.com  Wed May  8 13:19:59 2002
From: marc_news at vasoftware.com (Marc MERLIN)
Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 13:19:59 -0700
Subject: (forw) [linux-elitists] SpamAssassin at SMTP time with exim
In-Reply-To: <20020507181409.GJ29087@linuxmafia.com>
References: <20020507181409.GJ29087@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <20020508201959.GI32550@merlins.org>

On Tue, May 07, 2002 at 11:14:09AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> Another reason to be using exim, if you aren't yet :-)
> http://marc.merlins.org/linux/exim/sa.html

Just in case some of you downloaded the code, I released a new version last
night with a few fixes and announcements.
I've created a mailing list if you want to receive updates:
http://lists.merlins.org/lists/listinfo/sa-exim

Marc
-- 
Microsoft is to operating systems & security ....
                                      .... what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
  
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/   |   Finger marc_f at merlins.org for PGP key



From david at catwhisker.org  Thu May  9 05:33:24 2002
From: david at catwhisker.org (David Wolfskill)
Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 05:33:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Sometimes spam(-trapping) can be funny....
Message-ID: <200205091233.g49CXOOI090515@bunrab.catwhisker.org>

Normally, I wouldn't bother y'all with Yet Another Spam... but the
way this worked out managed to strike me as funny.

The main BayLISA mailing lists are technically not "moderated";
rather, they are set up so that certain sets of folks are able to
post directly, subject to certain content-filtering (which, if
triggered, causes the message to be intercepted and directed to the
list owner for disposition).  The "set of folks" typically includes
subscribers to the list itself, but there are additions in some
cases -- for example, any subscriber to the baylisa list is permitted
to post to the blw list (because that made sense to me, so I did it).

And the list that catalyzed much of this was, of course, baylisa-jobs --
and for this list, the content filtering is fairly extensive (and is
itself somewhat amusing, if that's the sort of thing that you are
inclined to find amusing).  In particular, I got rather fed up with
headhunters trying to spam baylisa-jobs with irrelevant posts, so I put
some traps in there to catch the more common ones (and I add to it when
I've received suitable inspiration...).

Now, way back in the 1980 - 1992 period I used to wrangle IBM mainframes
for a living; the first couple of years as an applications programmer,
and the rest as a systems programmer.  Now, in the IBM mainframe world,
the job of "systems programmer" is pretty much what is known as "systems
administrator" in the UNIX world (though networking back then was, shall
we say, ... different).  So I'm somewhat sympathetic to the notion that
someone with only IBM mainframe "systems programming" skills ought to be
welcome at BayLISA -- certainly at least as much as any other non-UNIX
skillset.

And care & feeding of CICS -- a package that allowed remote terminal
users to access applications -- certainly is a technical skill; I would
not dream of disputing that:  I've done my share of that sort of thing.

But it is sufficiently removed from the norm of what BayLISA is about
that a post to baylisa-jobs that mentions it is somewhat suspect, and
likely deserving of human inspection, so I included a "trap" for the
regex /CICS/i in the baylisa-jobs list definition.

Thus, I found the following trapped spam rather amusing, given the
difference between the apparent intent of the spammer vs. the
reason(s) the spam was trapped.  Note especially the last clause in the
subject of the "bounce" message vs. the subject of the spam itself:


>From owner-baylisa-jobs at baylisa.org Thu May  9 04:47:15 2002
>Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 04:47:09 -0700 (PDT)
>From: owner-baylisa-jobs at baylisa.org
>To: baylisa-jobs-approval at baylisa.org
>Subject: BOUNCE baylisa-jobs at baylisa.org:    Non-member submission from [bramesh35 <bramesh35 at hotmail.com>]   taboo body match "/<html>/i" at line 5  Message too long (>40000 chars)  taboo body match "/cics/i" at line 2843  
>
>>From david Thu May  9 04:45:29 2002
>Received: from out008.verizon.net (out008pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.108])
>	by www.baylisa.org (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g49BjS319515
>	for <baylisa-jobs at baylisa.org>; Thu, 9 May 2002 04:45:28 -0700 (PDT)
>Received: from Jgkxcn ([63.111.170.138]) by out008.verizon.net
>          (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with SMTP
>          id <20020509114525.WHHO25518.out008.verizon.net at Jgkxcn>
>          for <baylisa-jobs at baylisa.org>; Thu, 9 May 2002 06:45:25 -0500
>From: bramesh35 <bramesh35 at hotmail.com>
>To: baylisa-jobs at baylisa.org
>Subject: Re:japanese girl VS playboy
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>	boundary=KO6F4Gpvkx9MO724Yf768P5
>Message-Id: <20020509114525.WHHO25518.out008.verizon.net at Jgkxcn>
>Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 06:45:27 -0500
>
>--KO6F4Gpvkx9MO724Yf768P5
>Content-Type: text/html;
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
><HTML><HEAD></HEAD><BODY>
>....


Of course, maybe I'm just desperate for humor....  :-}

Cheers,
david
-- 
David H. Wolfskill				david at catwhisker.org
Microsoft products -- for those times when reliability just doesn't matter.



From mkonety at musambi.com  Thu May  9 08:53:02 2002
From: mkonety at musambi.com (Madhu Konety)
Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 08:53:02 -0700
Subject: Help: Cisco LocalDirector Config 
In-Reply-To: <200205060612.g466Cn617995@sage-web.sage.org>
Message-ID: <EEENINPHGGLAMBMCAJFMMEMNCEAA.mkonety@musambi.com>

I have a Cisco LDIR 430 and do not have the password for it. Warranty has
expired and Cisco will not help me until I buy another contract and I do not
have the config floppy.  Any ideas how I can resolve this?

thnx,

Madhu





From star at starshine.org  Tue May 14 13:01:34 2002
From: star at starshine.org (Heather Stern)
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 13:01:34 -0700
Subject: BayLISA meets this Thursday, May 16
Message-ID: <20020514130134.A4043@gemini.starshine.org>

I know, I know, I'm a bit late saying so, and to make it more frustrating,
the Third Thursday is closer to the middle of the month this time than most
months.

But day after tomorrow - May 16 - is the Third Thursday and we very much hope 
that we'll see you there.

        Topic    - Massively Scalable Transport Technology

        Speaker  - Dr. Amin Shokrollahi
                   Chief Scientist
                   Digital Fountain

		A bio for Dr. Shokrollahi is posted on the website.

        When     - 7:30 pm until oh, 9:30 or so... 
                   ...expect to get out around 10.

SPECIAL THINGS...............................................................

I'd like to note that our meetings are free to the public.  You are not
required to be a BayLISA member to attend our Third Thursday meetings.

However, if you like what you see, you are encouraged to join, to help fund
bringing good speakers into town, and to cover general expenses such as the 
snacks and sodas.  Members may borrow from our videotape library, even if 
they cannot make it to meetings.  We also have extra benefits for Corporate
Members.

Membership drive: If you bring someone else to BayLISA and they join as a 
member, then you get 20 dollars credit towards either BayLISA goodies (we
have t-shirts and pint glasses) or towards your own membership or renewal.
You can redeem your $20 credit later, so you can gain from this even if your
own renewal is several months away.
 
BayLISA pens we have in great multitudes.  You can have a big handful of 
them for free :)

GETTIMG THERE................................................................
            - Incyte Genomics HQ - 3160 Porter Drive - Palo Alto -

Porter Drive is between Foothill Expressway and El Camino, along Page Mill Rd.
Travelling:
   south (From Foothill/280) -- turn right
   north (from El Camino)    -- turn left

It's the third driveway on the right: 
   1. Wall Street Journal 
   2. right next to 3 
   3. silver monolith with Lockheed Martin and Incyte Genomics logos on it 
      - shiny enough that they're both hard to see.  

Incyte is the building in the back.  We'll see you there if you can make it :)

A bunch of us like to go out afterwards to continue our conversations at a 
local late-night restaurant. 

-* Heather Stern * Arch (secretary) BayLISA Board * http://www.baylisa.org/ *-



From extasia at mindspring.com  Tue May 14 15:59:36 2002
From: extasia at mindspring.com (David Alban)
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 15:59:36 -0700
Subject: sig-beer-west this Saturday in San Francisco
Message-ID: <20020514155936.A1660@new.gerasimov.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Please join us for beer at 18:00 this Saturday in San Francisco at
Toronado!  

http://www.fiid.net/sf_sig_beer.jsp

  dc.sage SIG-beer-west in San Francisco, CA
  Saturday, May 18th, 2002 at 6:00pm

  San Francisco's next social event for computer sysadmins and their
  ilk, dc.sage's <http://www.dc-sage.org"> SIG-beer-west, will take
  place on Saturday, May 18th, 2002 [at] Toronado <http://www.toronado.com>
  in San Francisco, CA.  

  Festivities will start at 18:00 (that's 6 PM) (Pacific Time) and
  continue until we've all left. Toronado has an excellent selection
  of beer, but no food. It is perfectly okay to score food from
  neighboring establishments and bring it back to Toronado to eat.
  Also, after we are all full with beer we may roam off to a nearby
  restaurant.  

  This event is not restricted to dc.sage members. Please feel free
  to forward this link and/or to invite friends, co-workers, and
  others who might enjoy lifting a glass with sysadmins from all over
  the place. Caveat: Attendees must be 21 or older, with proof of age
  (valid, government-issued picture ID) to attend.

  For directions to Toronado, please use the excellent directions at
  their website <http://www.toronado.com/map.htm>

  When you show up to Toronado, you should look for some kind of
  botched SIG-BEER sign. We will try to make it obvious who we are :-).

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Non-members of dc.sage are heartily welcome to these social events.
  Follow this link <http://www.dc-sage.org/membership.shtml> if you
  are interested in joining dc.sage.  

  Any Comments, Questions, or Suggestions of Things to Do Later on
  That Evening ... email Fiid <mailto:fiid at fiid.net>.

- -- 
Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors.
Stop the SSSCA/CBDPTA: http://www.politechbot.com/p-03289.html
                       http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,51274,00.html
                       http://www.PetitionOnline.com/SSSCA/petition.html


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

iD8DBQE84ZZnPh0M9c/OpdARAqK8AKCViOM58cWjYlxqLE6ZVzNJkkjW2gCgwTXM
mHAVt6SKei0vUbodfMf/bMQ=
=wB+b
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From extasia at mindspring.com  Fri May 24 10:30:43 2002
From: extasia at mindspring.com (David Alban)
Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 10:30:43 -0700
Subject: Hollywood wants to regulate A-D converters
Message-ID: <20020524103043.C5124@new.gerasimov.net>

Pretty scary...

----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com> -----

Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 11:27:13 -0400
To: politech at politechbot.com
From: Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com>
Subject: FC: Hollywood wants to plug "analog hole," regulate A-D converters
Reply-To: declan at well.com
X-URL: Politech is at http://www.politechbot.com/

---

From: "Trei, Peter" <ptrei at rsasecurity.com>
To: "'declan at well.com'" <declan at well.com>
Subject: MPAA wants all A/D converters to implement copyright protection.
Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 11:17:08 -0400

My mind has been boggled, my flabbers have been ghasted.

In the name of protecting their business model, the MPAA
proposes that every analog/digital (A/D) converter - one of
the most basic of chips - be required to check for US
government mandated copyright flags. Quite aside from
increasing the cost and complexity of the devices many,
manyfold, it eliminates the ability of the US to compete
in the world electronics market.

If this level of ignorance, chuptza, and bloodymindedness
had been around a hundred years ago, cars would be
forbidden to have a range greater then 20 miles, to
protect the railway industry, and transoceanic airline
tickets would have a $1000/seat surcharge, to compensate
the owners of ocean liners for lost revenue.

I know that Tinsletown is based on dreams and fantasies
(as well as the violation of Edision's movie patents), but
someone needs to sit these people down and teach them
the lesson that King Canute taught his nobles.

Peter Trei
[The above is my personal opinion only. Do not
misconstrue it to belong to others.]

---

Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 16:06:08 -0700
Subject: Hollywood wants to plug your analog hole
From: Cory Doctorow <cory at eff.org>
To: Declan McCullagh <declan at well.com>

FYI
--
http://bpdg.blogs.eff.org/archives/000113.html

Hollywood Wants to Plug the "Analog Hole"

*New MPAA report reveals chilling agenda*

=The Big Picture=

The people who tried to take away your VCR are at it again. Hollywood has 
always dreamed of a "well-mannered marketplace" where the only technologies 
that you can buy are those that do not disrupt its business. Acting through 
legislators who dance to Hollywood's tune, the movie studios are racing to 
lock away the flexible, general-purpose technology that has given us a 
century of unparalelled prosperity and innovation.

The Motion Picture Association of America (MPAA) filed the "Content 
Protection Status Report" with the Senate Judiciary Committee last month, 
laying out its plan to remake the technology world to suit its own ends. 
The report calls for regulation of analog-to-digital converters (ADCs), 
generic computing components found in scientific, medical and entertainment 
devices. Under its proposal, every ADC will be controlled by a "cop-chip" 
that will shut it down if it is asked to assist in converting copyrighted 
material -- your cellphone would refuse to transmit your voice if you 
wandered too close to the copyrighted music coming from your stereo.

The report shows that this ADC regulation is part of a larger agenda. The 
first piece of that agenda, a mandate that would give Hollywood a veto over 
digital television technology, is weeks away from coming to fruition. 
Hollywood also proposes a radical redesign of the Internet to assist in 
controlling the distribution of copyrighted works.

This three-part agenda -- controlling digital media devices, controlling 
analog converters, controlling the Internet -- is a frightening peek at 
Hollywood's vision of the future.

=Hollywood Tips its Hand=

The "Content Protection Status Report" 
(http://judiciary.senate.gov/special/content_protection.pdf) points to 
future where innovation and fair use rights are sacrificed on copyright's 
altar, where entertainment companies become *de facto* regulators of new 
technologies, deciding which mathematical instructions are mandatory and 
which are forbidden.

The first part of the document details the efforts of the Broadcast 
Protection Discussion Group (BPDG: http://bpdg.blogs.eff.org/), which will 
release its final standard for the regulation of digital media technology 
at the end of May. The BPDG's standard would ban the production of digital 
television devices that had not been approved by three Hollywood studios. 
Approved devices will only interoperate with other approved devices. The 
combination of legal restrictions on digital television devices and 
licensing restrictions on the computer technologies they can interface with 
gives Hollywood an absolute veto over all new digital media technology 
without the need for unpopular, sweeping legislation like Senator 
Hollings's Consumer Broadband and Digital Television Promotion Act (CBDTPA).

=Plugging the Analog Hole=

But the most disturbing pieces of the Status Report comes later in the 
document. The second section, "Plugging the Analog Hole," reveals 
Hollywood's plan to turn a generic technology component, the humble 
analog-to-digital convertor, into a device that is subject to the kind of 
regulation heretofore reserved for Schedule A narcotics.

Analog-to-digital converters (ADCs) are the building blocks of modern 
digital technology. An ADC's job is to take samples of the strength 
(amplitude) of some analog signal (light, sound, motion, temperature) at 
some interval (frequency) and convert the results to a numerical value. 
ADCs are embedded in digital scanners, samplers, thermometers, 
seismographs, mice and other pointer devices, camcorders, cameras, 
microscopes, telescopes, modems, radios, televisions, cellular phones, 
walkie-talkies, light-meters and a multitude of other devices. In general, 
ADCs are generic and interchangeable -- that is, a high-frequency ADC from 
a sound-card is potentially the same ADC that you'll find in a sensitive 
graphics tablet.

Hollywood perceives ADCs as the lynchpin of unauthorized duplication. No 
matter how much copy-control technology is integrated into DVDs and 
satellite broadcasts, there is always the possibility that some Internet 
user will aim a camcorder at the screen, always the shadowy fan at the 
concert wielding a smuggled digital recorder, always the audiophile jacking 
a low-impedance cable into a high-end stereo. These bogeymen plague 
Hollywood, and each one uses an ADC to produce unauthorized copies.

Accordingly, the report calls for a regimen where "watermark detectors 
would be required in all devices that perform analog to digital 
conversions." The plan is to embed a "watermark" (a theoretical, invisible 
mark that can only be detected by special equipment and that can't be 
removed without damaging the media in which it was embedded) in all 
copyrighted works. Thereafter, every ADC would be accompanied by a "cop 
chip" that would sense this watermark's presence and disable certain 
features depending on the conditions.

This is meant to work like so: You point your camcorder at a movie screen. 
The magical, theoretical watermark embedded in the film is picked up by the 
cop-chip, which disables the camcorder's ADC. Your camcorder records 
nothing but dead air. The mic, sensing a watermark in the film's 
soundtrack, also shuts itself down.

The objective of a law like this is to make "unauthorized" synonymous with 
"illegal." In the world of copyright, there are many uses that are legal, 
even -- *especially* -- if they are unauthorized, for example, the fair-use 
right to quote a work for critical purposes. Any critic -- a professor, a 
reporter, even an individual with a personal website -- may be lawfully 
copy parts of copyrighted works in a critical discussion. Such a person may 
scan in part of a magazine article, record a snatch of music from a CD or a 
piece of a film or television show in the lawful course of making a 
critical work.

And you don't need to be a critic to make a lawful, unauthorized copy! You 
might be someone who wants to "format-shift" some personal property -- say, 
by scanning in a book or transferring an old LP to MP3 so that you might 
take it with you while travelling with your computer. This is absolutely 
lawful, but under the "analog hole" proposal, providing the tools to make 
such unauthorized uses would be illegal.

=Unintended Consequences=

It's outrageous that Hollywood would demand a law that intentionally breaks 
technology so that it can't be used in lawful ways, but the unintended 
consequences of this regime are even more bizarre.

Virtually everything in our world is copyrighted or trademarked by someone, 
from the facades of famous sky-scrapers to the background music at your 
local mall. If ADCs are constrained from performing analog-to-digital 
conversion of all watermarked copyrighted works, you might end up with a 
cellphone that switches itself off when you get within range of the 
copyrighted music on your stereo; a camcorder that refuses to store your 
child's first steps because he is taking them within eyeshot of a 
television playing a copyrighted cartoon; a camera that won't snap your 
holiday moments if they take place against the copyrighted backdrop of a 
chain store such as Starbucks, which forbids on-premises photography 
because its fixtures are proprietary works.

As was mentioned, ADCs are fundamental, generic computing components, found 
in medical and scientific equipment, computers, and a variety of consumer 
electronics. Surely Hollywood doesn't mean to suggest that geologists will 
have to equip their seismographs with cop-chips (lest they should 
accidentally record a copyrighted earthquake)?

It seems likely that they do. The primary difference between most ADCs is 
the frequency at which they run. Two ADCs of like frequency and bitrate can 
be interchanged. If any "free" ADCs are allowed into the marketplace, they 
will surely find themselves repurposed in camcorders, samplers, and 
scanners (oh my!).

=The Scourge of P2P=

Hollywood's report to Congress includes its third legislative goal: 
"Putting an end to the avalanche of movie theft on so-called 'file-sharing' 
services, such as Morpheus, Gnutella, and other peer-to-peer (p2p) networks."

Here, rather than making "unauthorized" and "illegal" synonymous, Hollywood 
is seeking to overturn the Betamax doctrine -- the principle that a 
technology is legal, provided that it can be used to accomplish legal ends. 
VCRs are legal, even though they can be used to make illegal copies of 
copyrighted works, because they can *also* be used to make legal copies of 
personal works and copyrighted works (in the case of time- and 
format-shifting).

P2P networks -- such as the Internet -- are not infringing in and of 
themselves. "P2P" describes a technology where the system's control is 
largely or entirely decentralized. P2P application networks are turned to 
all manner of ends, from sharing classroom materials and independently 
produced media to distributing large scientific problems associated with 
the search for a cure for AIDS to providing a distributed proxy service 
that allows Chinese Internet users to circumvent China's national firewall 
and read uncensored news. True, they can also be used to make unauthorized 
-- and even illegal -- copies of copyrighted works, but the Betamax 
doctrine does not establish as its standard that no illegal uses be 
possible with a technology; only that a technology have some legal use.

What's more, thoroughly decentralized networks like Gnutella have no 
control-point. There is no central server, no standards-body, no 
exploitable point where leverage can be applied to control what is and is 
not available on the network. The Internet is fundamentally constructed to 
permit any two points to communicate, and as long as this is true, Gnutella 
and its brethren will thrive.

Which begs the question: How will Hollywood put "an end to ... movie theft 
on ... p2p networks?" Short of dramatically re-architecting the Internet it 
seems inconceivable that P2P will ever controlled or eliminated.

But dramatic redesigns of the Internet are well within Hollywood's stated 
desires. In 1995, Hollywood's representatives in government penned "The 
Report of the Working Group on Intellectual Property Rights," calling for a 
neutered Internet whose functionality had been magically constrained to 
"permit [rights-holders] to enforce the terms and conditions under which 
their works are made public."

We can only guess at where these delusional technological speculations have 
wandered in the intervening years, and this "Content Protection Status 
Report" is a good and grim indicator.

=Take a Stand=

Hollywood's legislative agenda may be ridiculous, but it is hardly 
unlikely. The BPDG is bare weeks away from turning over a veto on new 
technologies to Hollywood. They are doing so with the cooperation of the 
technology companies that are willingly participating in the BPDG process. 
If just one major computer company would step forward in the press and in 
Congress and object to the BPDG's mandate, the entire rubric of a 
"consensus" upon which the BPDG depends would collapse.

The BPDG mandate is critical to Hollywood's legislative agenda. With the 
BPDG mandate in place, an ADC control law and a radical Internet redesign 
are attainable goals.

If you work for a technology company, please ask your favorite senior 
manager or corporate officer to contact the EFF. We'd be delighted to 
deliver a briefing on this and help make the decision to stand up.

As an individual, write to the companies you are a customer of. Take a look 
at your computer and your consumer electronics: they have been built by 
companies that are either willingly participating in the BPDG or have not 
come forward to oppose it. Only once these companies realize that their 
customers care about liberty will they find the courage to oppose 
Hollywood's powerful Congressional representatives, like Senator Ernest 
"Fritz" Hollings (D-Disney).

Show this article to your friends and co-workers. Hollywood's perverse 
obsession with plugging the analog hole must be brought to light, as must 
the likely outcome of its agenda.

--
Cory Doctorow
Outreach Coordinator, Electronic Frontier Foundation
415.726.5209/cory at eff.org

Blog: http://boingboing.net

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list
You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice.
To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html
This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/
Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Like Politech? Make a donation here: http://www.politechbot.com/donate/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

----- End forwarded message -----

-- 
Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors.
-- 
UNIX Sysadmin / Tools Engineer for hire:
  http://www.gerasimov.net/~alban/jac/resume.html
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 232 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://www.baylisa.org/pipermail/baylisa/attachments/20020524/fb224098/attachment.bin>

From extasia at mindspring.com  Mon May 27 13:18:49 2002
From: extasia at mindspring.com (David Alban)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 13:18:49 -0700
Subject: Save the hardware!
Message-ID: <20020527131849.A5039@new.gerasimov.net>

Greetings!

Thought I'd check to see if anyone might want these (for free) before I
trashed them:

  . NEC P7 Pinwriter 24-pin dot matrix printer[1] (still works) with one
    extra (unused) ribbon
  . NEC MultiSync 5FG Monitor Lens

I'd even consider delivering the printer if you're not too far from me.

Thanks,
David

[1]  It's been boxed up for the last three years.
-- 
Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors.
-- 
UNIX Sysadmin / Tools Engineer for hire:
  http://www.gerasimov.net/~alban/jac/resume.html
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 232 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://www.baylisa.org/pipermail/baylisa/attachments/20020527/5d970d72/attachment.bin>

From ulf at Alameda.net  Thu May 30 11:58:22 2002
From: ulf at Alameda.net (Ulf Zimmermann)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 11:58:22 -0700
Subject: Offer for Baylisa members (before it goes on eBay)
Message-ID: <20020530115821.E54093@seven.alameda.net>

Hello everyone.

Autodaq, the company I am working for at time, wants to sell some
Sun Ultra 5s (400MHz cpu, 4mb cache, 256MB memory, 9GB disk). Keyboard
and mouse included. Solaris 8 installed and media included if wanted.

We have at least 5 available, looking for $400 or best offer.
If you are interested, contact me at ulf at autodaq.com.

-- 
Regards, Ulf.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-865-0204
You can find my resume at: http://seven.Alameda.net/~ulf/resume.html


From byu at Emode.com  Thu May 30 15:26:43 2002
From: byu at Emode.com (Brandon Yu)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 15:26:43 -0700
Subject: replacement disk for storagetek/clariion array
Message-ID: <601EB3F56D368D41B89DC1A937FCCCFF496719@EMODEMAIL.emode.sf>

My array had a failed disk and I replaced it with a off the shelf 18gig
fibre scsi disk. Seems like the drive is recognized as being unformatted by
the array.
Does anyone know if I have to buy from Storagetek..something special about
the disk?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://www.baylisa.org/pipermail/baylisa/attachments/20020530/b7ad6152/attachment.html>

From jhoney at flash.net  Thu May 30 19:17:54 2002
From: jhoney at flash.net (jhoney at flash.net)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 21:17:54 -0500
Subject: replacement disk for storagetek/clariion array
References: <601EB3F56D368D41B89DC1A937FCCCFF496719@EMODEMAIL.emode.sf>
Message-ID: <3CF6DD52.7000803@flash.net>

I used to work for a computer OEM that indeed ordered 'custom' drives 
with special SCSI commands built into the drives ROM but such things are 
pretty rare nowadays because most OEM consumers wised up and pushed 
back.  The drive mfgrs don't really like this either anyway.  I wouldn't 
say it was impossible that this drive is a 'special' drive but it is 
unlikely.  I can't imagine that it would have to come from the 
Storagetek factory with a special format.  For SCSI that sort of thing 
(formatting) is usually more in the domain of the controller chip on the 
bus controller card (i.e., not on the interface chip of the drive like 
IDE drives).  That was one of the main tenets of IDE.

I'm just shooting from the hip here but it would seem to me there has to 
be some utility/capability local on your system to support what you want 
to do.  Also, using the same model number frive might be a *real* good 
idea but I am assuming you did that.  Whether Storagetek would ever want 
you to know how to do this might be the real issue.  Be sure and share 
the answer if you figure it out.

Good luck.

Brandon Yu wrote:

> My array had a failed disk and I replaced it with a off the shelf 
> 18gig fibre scsi disk. Seems like the drive is recognized as being 
> unformatted by the array.
>
> Does anyone know if I have to buy from Storagetek..something special 
> about the disk?
>

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://www.baylisa.org/pipermail/baylisa/attachments/20020530/fcf5a970/attachment.html>

From mike at caressofsteel.net  Thu May 30 20:38:04 2002
From: mike at caressofsteel.net (Michael Gracy)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 20:38:04 -0700
Subject: replacement disk for storagetek/clariion array
References: <601EB3F56D368D41B89DC1A937FCCCFF496719@EMODEMAIL.emode.sf> <3CF6DD52.7000803@flash.net>
Message-ID: <00ef01c20854$928a56d0$960a120a@thor>

I've been doing a little thinking about this.  One problem is Brandon doesn't mention at what level he is observing the drive status, OS or BIOS (System or controller).  He also doesn't mention if this is a raid 0, 1 or 5, combination or jbod.
I'm going to assume raid 5 here.  If this is an older raid controller, you will probably have to go into the bios for the raid controller and designate that the drive is part of the array and tell it to rebuild the stripe if it doesn't automatically do this.
Another issue might be is whether the drive's geometry/storage size falls short of the others and can't hold it's portion of the stripe.  If the drive is larger than the others, then most controllers will only make use of enough space to match the other drives.
But you can't make use of any of the unused space.  In some cases you have to have a drive that matches the geometry of the others, no allowances.  Before you reboot, make sure as to whether or not you are using hardware or software (OS based) raid.  If it is software based, don't reboot until you've verified that the drive is part of the array and the stripe is rebuilt.  If you reboot you may screw yourself depending on the implementation.  If this is harware based raid, you're probably going to have to reboot thus taking the machine offline unless you have agent software loaded that can talk to the raid controller and accomplish the needed tasks.  Hope this helps.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: jhoney at flash.net 
  To: baylisa at baylisa.org 
  Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 7:17 PM
  Subject: Re: replacement disk for storagetek/clariion array


  I used to work for a computer OEM that indeed ordered 'custom' drives with special SCSI commands built into the drives ROM but such things are pretty rare nowadays because most OEM consumers wised up and pushed back.  The drive mfgrs don't really like this either anyway.  I wouldn't say it was impossible that this drive is a 'special' drive but it is unlikely.  I can't imagine that it would have to come from the Storagetek factory with a special format.  For SCSI that sort of thing (formatting) is usually more in the domain of the controller chip on the bus controller card (i.e., not on the interface chip of the drive like IDE drives).  That was one of the main tenets of IDE.

  I'm just shooting from the hip here but it would seem to me there has to be some utility/capability local on your system to support what you want to do.  Also, using the same model number frive might be a *real* good idea but I am assuming you did that.  Whether Storagetek would ever want you to know how to do this might be the real issue.  Be sure and share the answer if you figure it out.

  Good luck.

  Brandon Yu wrote:

    My array had a failed disk and I replaced it with a off the shelf 18gig fibre scsi disk. Seems like the drive is recognized as being unformatted by the array.
    Does anyone know if I have to buy from Storagetek..something special about the disk?


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://www.baylisa.org/pipermail/baylisa/attachments/20020530/6d4bfe94/attachment.html>

From byu at Emode.com  Fri May 31 15:43:18 2002
From: byu at Emode.com (Brandon Yu)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 15:43:18 -0700
Subject: replacement disk for storagetek/clariion array
Message-ID: <601EB3F56D368D41B89DC1A937FCCCFF496722@EMODEMAIL.emode.sf>

I found out that Storagetek drives are custom drives formatted with
520byte/sectors (not the usual 512byte/sectors). So you have to buy the
drives from the Storagetek Channel reseller. You cannot just take a off the
shelf drive and format it yourself. Now to find a drive...I will need
luck!!!

-----Original Message-----
From: jhoney at flash.net [mailto:jhoney at flash.net]
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 7:18 PM
To: baylisa at baylisa.org
Subject: Re: replacement disk for storagetek/clariion array


I used to work for a computer OEM that indeed ordered 'custom' drives with
special SCSI commands built into the drives ROM but such things are pretty
rare nowadays because most OEM consumers wised up and pushed back.  The
drive mfgrs don't really like this either anyway.  I wouldn't say it was
impossible that this drive is a 'special' drive but it is unlikely.  I can't
imagine that it would have to come from the Storagetek factory with a
special format.  For SCSI that sort of thing (formatting) is usually more in
the domain of the controller chip on the bus controller card (i.e., not on
the interface chip of the drive like IDE drives).  That was one of the main
tenets of IDE.

I'm just shooting from the hip here but it would seem to me there has to be
some utility/capability local on your system to support what you want to do.
Also, using the same model number frive might be a *real* good idea but I am
assuming you did that.  Whether Storagetek would ever want you to know how
to do this might be the real issue.  Be sure and share the answer if you
figure it out.

Good luck.

Brandon Yu wrote:


My array had a failed disk and I replaced it with a off the shelf 18gig
fibre scsi disk. Seems like the drive is recognized as being unformatted by
the array.
Does anyone know if I have to buy from Storagetek..something special about
the disk?


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://www.baylisa.org/pipermail/baylisa/attachments/20020531/b744d2f9/attachment.html>

From ulf at Alameda.net  Fri May 31 17:24:48 2002
From: ulf at Alameda.net (Ulf Zimmermann)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 17:24:48 -0700
Subject: Sun Ultra 5s, more information
Message-ID: <20020531172448.L54093@seven.alameda.net>


Hello everyone. 

I got at least 30 replies back about these machines and I was swamped with
building 2 servers for a software released scheduled today, so I haven't
answered anyone yet. Sorry about that.

It turns out the person who put together the machines to be sold didn't
check them all out, so here is some more information. We have for sale
to highest offer ($400 to start please):

2x Sun Ultra 5, CPU 400MHz, 256MB memory, 9GB disk, CD-Rom, Keyboard, Mouse.
4x Sun Ultra 5, CPU 360MHz, 256MB memory, 9GB disk, CD-Rom, Keyboard, Mouse.
2x Sun Ultra 5, CPU 333MHz, 256MB memory, 9GB disk, CD-Rom, Keyboard, Mouse.
1x Sun Ultra 5, CPU 270MHz, 256MB memory, 9GB disk, CD-Rom, Keyboard, Mouse.

They currently all need to be wiped and reinstalled (Solaris 8 02/02) and
media can be provided if wished. We also have some Sun monitors available
for sale if interested.

These machines are located in Menlo Park and buyer has to arrange pickup
or shipment. We accept cashier check. We have to charge sales tax (8.25%
I believe).

Please reply to ulf at autodaq.com (I also set the Reply-To:) or call me
monday at 650-532-6382.

Have a nice weekend.

-- 
Regards, Ulf.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-865-0204
You can find my resume at: http://seven.Alameda.net/~ulf/resume.html