From Stewart.Hersey at leland.stanford.edu  Mon Apr  1 08:33:10 2002
From: Stewart.Hersey at leland.stanford.edu (Stewart M. Hersey)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 08:33:10 -0800
Subject: nature of the list baylisa@baylisa.org
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401082928.0297bb68@hersey.pobox.stanford.edu>

Yikes!
This is the only list that I'm on where I don't filter incoming direct-to-mailbox.
Yeah, and BTW I read every single post. Nice to hear what folks I know R up2.
*S*

>Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 11:57:24 -0800 (PST)
>From: J Greely <jgreely at corp.webtv.net>
>X-X-Sender:  <jgreely at hotdhog.artemis.com>
>To: Heather <star at betelgeuse.starshine.org>
>cc: David Wolfskill <david at catwhisker.org>, <baylisa at baylisa.org>
>Subject: Re: nature of the list baylisa at baylisa.org
>Sender: owner-baylisa at baylisa.org
>
>On Sat, 30 Mar 2002, Heather wrote:
>>Let me get this straight, you're trying to claim that questions about
>>reaching a terminal server of one OS type from another OS is *off* topic
>>here?
>
>If I wanted to be part of a high-volume mailing list, I would have
>subscribed to one. I find general "hey guys, let's chat about terminal
>servers" as off-topic as "who wants to join the Ruckus Society and
>learn how to commit property crimes?".
>
>-j


Stewart Matthew Hersey
Technical Writer / Trainer
Leland Stanford Junior University
R&DE Information Systems
http://houdini.stanford.edu/~hersey/

Director, Stanford/Palo Alto Macintosh User Group (SMUG)
P.O. Box 20132 Stanford, CA 94309 Club Phone: 650-286-7539  
On the web: http://www.pa-smug.org

Stanford University Expert Partner
http://www.stanford.edu/group/partners/

================================================================
"What do we have to look forward to today?
There are a lot of things we have to look forward to today." 

- <http://sepwww.stanford.edu/sep/jon/family/jos/>Johannes "Jos" Dianovich Claerbout 
         06/14/1974 - 08/20/1999 
================================================================
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From jgreely at corp.webtv.net  Mon Apr  1 12:52:45 2002
From: jgreely at corp.webtv.net (J Greely)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:52:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: nature of the list baylisa@baylisa.org
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401082928.0297bb68@hersey.pobox.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0204011249050.8629-100000@hotdhog.artemis.com>

On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Stewart M. Hersey wrote:
>This is the only list that I'm on where I don't filter incoming direct-to-mailbox.

I should clarify that when I said "high-volume", I wasn't claiming
that this list qualified today (although if this keeps up, I'll want
to switch to a digest view), simply that recent trends suggested it
was headed that way. And I'd *like* to read all of the messages, but I
already have far too much Real Work Email to sort through every day,
so it's either filter and never get back to it or just hit delete.

-j




From Stewart.Hersey at leland.stanford.edu  Mon Apr  1 14:27:01 2002
From: Stewart.Hersey at leland.stanford.edu (Stewart M. Hersey)
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 14:27:01 -0800
Subject: Fwd: Re: Re: nature of the list baylisa@baylisa.org
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020401142600.00b13a88@hersey.pobox.stanford.edu>

FYI

>Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 14:25:48 -0800
>To: J Greely <jgreely at corp.webtv.net>
>From: "Stewart M. Hersey" <Stewart.Hersey at leland.stanford.edu>
>Subject: Re: Re: nature of the list baylisa at baylisa.org
>
>J,
>
>To some folks, BayLISA is the closest thing to Real Work Email. :-(
>
>Hey, I've just reminded myself to puke out some off-color market copy:
>"BayLISA at BayLISA.Org: The Closest Thing to Real Work Email."
>
>At 12:52 PM 4/1/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>>On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Stewart M. Hersey wrote:
>>>This is the only list that I'm on where I don't filter incoming direct-to-mailbox.
>>
>>I'd *like* to read all of the messages, but I already have far too much Real Work Email to sort through every day...
>>
>>-j
>
>BTW I got back from Montreal, checked my snail-mail and read that Fritz Nelson "really is" bailing from that Network Computing rag.
>Bummer. I'm gonna miss his caustic wit and introspective editorial tidbits. Wonder where he'll end up next? Any takers on this one?
>
>*S*
>
>http://rave.stanford.edu
>"The Closest Thing to a Real Work Webserver"



From gretchen at flick.com  Thu Apr  4 13:03:20 2002
From: gretchen at flick.com (The Other Gretchen)
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 13:03:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Security Audit Recommendations
Message-ID: <200204042103.NAA11158@toybox.flick.com>

Hopefully this is on-topic.  :)

Does anyone have a recommendation for a clueful company who can do
third party network security audits?

Thanks,

--Gretchen

--
The Other Gretchen >-< gretchen at flick.com >-< http://www.flick.com/~gretchen/
	The moral PGP Diffie taught Hellman unites all mankind coded!
	All one key-steganography-privacy! God's law prevents decryption
	above 1024 bits!  Exceptions? None!	-- Alan Olsen and Bruce Baugh


From jgross at stimpy.net  Thu Apr  4 17:25:13 2002
From: jgross at stimpy.net (Joe Gross)
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 17:25:13 -0800
Subject: colo phones
Message-ID: <20020405012513.GA51775@felix.stimpy.net>

Does anyone have a favorite phone they use in their colo? I have a crappy
cordless phone that doesn't have good range and is difficult to hear due to
nose.

I have a couple of requirements that I'm having trouble filling:

- It must be cordless
- Relatively unaffected by EMI and can go at least 25 ft while surrounded by
  computers
- Must have a headset jack
- Rings really loudly (or can be set to do so)
- Can be used in a noisy enviornment (cupped earpiece, volume control, noise
  canceling, etc)

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Joe




From Stewart.Hersey at leland.stanford.edu  Thu Apr  4 17:43:48 2002
From: Stewart.Hersey at leland.stanford.edu (Stewart M. Hersey)
Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 17:43:48 -0800
Subject: colo phones
In-Reply-To: <20020405012513.GA51775@felix.stimpy.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020404173903.029d1a48@hersey.pobox.stanford.edu>

Joe

These 802.11's are way kewel:     
http://www.symbol.com/products/wireless/nv_data_phone.html

Data Sheet is here:
http://www.symbol.com/products/wireless/nvdataphone.html

I bet they'll do the Cap'n proud, too!

*S*

At 05:25 PM 4/4/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>Does anyone have a favorite phone they use in their colo? I have a crappy
>cordless phone that doesn't have good range and is difficult to hear due to
>nose.
>
>I have a couple of requirements that I'm having trouble filling:
>
>- It must be cordless
>- Relatively unaffected by EMI and can go at least 25 ft while surrounded by
>  computers
>- Must have a headset jack
>- Rings really loudly (or can be set to do so)
>- Can be used in a noisy enviornment (cupped earpiece, volume control, noise
>  canceling, etc)
>
>Any suggestions would be appreciated.
>
>Joe



From mike at caressofsteel.net  Thu Apr  4 18:25:19 2002
From: mike at caressofsteel.net (Michael Gracy)
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 18:25:19 -0800
Subject: colo phones
References: <20020405012513.GA51775@felix.stimpy.net>
Message-ID: <001d01c1dc49$21d40170$960a120a@thor>

Well, most Radio Shack phones are pretty damn annoying in their ring tone
and volume.  Look at something with the 2.whatever Ghz transmitters.  They
seem to go pretty far.  Just don't step in front of an operating microwave
with one, it receives mondo interference from the mickywave.  :)
As far as headset, there are many models that have one.  Try an earpiece
that goes in the ear?  I do know that the larger the speaker, the more
current that it requires to operate efficiently so a large cup covering the
ear may not be an option.  Nothing stops you from modifying a set of over
the ear protectors to cover what you need.  They will look a little silly
though.  Also consider getting a remote ring indicator so that if you aren't
around the base or handset, you can still see a flashing light or something.

Anyone else have any input?

Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Gross" <jgross at stimpy.net>
To: <baylisa at baylisa.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 5:25 PM
Subject: colo phones


> Does anyone have a favorite phone they use in their colo? I have a crappy
> cordless phone that doesn't have good range and is difficult to hear due
to
> nose.
>
> I have a couple of requirements that I'm having trouble filling:
>
> - It must be cordless
> - Relatively unaffected by EMI and can go at least 25 ft while surrounded
by
>   computers
> - Must have a headset jack
> - Rings really loudly (or can be set to do so)
> - Can be used in a noisy enviornment (cupped earpiece, volume control,
noise
>   canceling, etc)
>
> Any suggestions would be appreciated.
>
> Joe
>
>
>
>



From jgross at stimpy.net  Fri Apr  5 07:40:53 2002
From: jgross at stimpy.net (Joe Gross)
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 07:40:53 -0800
Subject: [rayk@tera.teralink.com: Re: colo phones] (fwd)
Message-ID: <20020405154053.GA83729@felix.stimpy.net>

Forwarded with permission.

----- Forwarded message from "V. Ray Krebs III" <rayk at tera.teralink.com> -----

Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 01:16:32 -0600 (CST)
From: "V. Ray Krebs III" <rayk at tera.teralink.com>
To: Joe Gross <jgross at stimpy.net>
Subject: Re: colo phones


Hello,

After reading the few suggestions so far I figured I should give you a
better suggestion based on some experience.

I don't know if this covers everything you require in one but the best
headset / cordless phone I have ever used in a colo would be one made by
Plantronics (CA-10)

Works great.  Has good range.  And a long battery life known from
experience I don't want to repeat ... way too many hours on the phone in a
cold colo.  Now for the headset part this is the best ever.
http://www.plantronics.com/north_america/en_US/catalog/display_product_detail.jhtml?rootId=cat1230032&prodId=prod440138&productTypeId=cat1270044

It makes talking on the phone in a loud colo easy with no yelling or
straining to hear what's going on the other side of the line.


Ray

----- End forwarded message -----


From chuck+baylisa at snew.com  Fri Apr  5 12:19:03 2002
From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes)
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 12:19:03 -0800
Subject: colo phones
In-Reply-To: <001d01c1dc49$21d40170$960a120a@thor>; from mike@caressofsteel.net on Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 06:25:19PM -0800
References: <20020405012513.GA51775@felix.stimpy.net> <001d01c1dc49$21d40170$960a120a@thor>
Message-ID: <20020405121903.A27574@snew.com>

Quoting "Joe Gross" <jgross at stimpy.net>:
> Well, most Radio Shack phones are pretty damn annoying in their ring tone
> > - Can be used in a noisy enviornment (cupped earpiece, volume control,
> > noise canceling, etc)

And the best way I've found to reduce noise when listening is
to cover the MOUTHPIECE (or mute) - it's a full duplex setup,
so you remove the machine room from being part of the conversation.

Buy a GHz, try it.  If it doesn't work, return it the next day.

Making radio not be affected by lots of machines that emit, er,
EMI in that frequency is hard.  I'm a fan of excessively long cords
with spring wound reels some times.

Or replace all the machines' CPUs with nice ARM chips and you can
remove many of the fans :)


From pf-baylisa at freret.org  Fri Apr  5 13:23:20 2002
From: pf-baylisa at freret.org (Payne Freret)
Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 13:23:20 -0800
Subject: colo phones
Message-ID: <E16tbB2-0005a1-00@p166.freret.org>

5 Apr 2002

Chuck Yerkes writes
> And the best way I've found to reduce noise when listening
> is to cover the MOUTHPIECE (or mute) - it's a full duplex
> setup, so you remove the machine room from being part of
> the conversation.

It's not the full duplex operation that makes covering the mouthpiece useful
in noisy environments.  It's the deliberate microphone-to-earphone feedback
(the "sidetone") that telephones employ to regulate talker volume.

Years ago Western Electric manufactured a handset intended for use in noisy
environments.  It resembled a conventional handset except that it had a
push-to-talk switch that energized its microphone, which was otherwise
muted.

Payne Freret



From rjwitte at rjwitte.com  Sun Apr  7 09:35:50 2002
From: rjwitte at rjwitte.com (Russel J. Witte)
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 09:35:50 -0700
Subject: Link Farm of Sysadmin interest...
Message-ID: <HEEMKGJDBMHGLNPAFEJFIELOCBAA.rjwitte@rjwitte.com>

http://www.nerdvanna.org

I ran a little bit with Strata Rose's idea and created a new website
intended to spotlight stuff that "Nerds" might
like....

And to use as a central location for important links ...

Any comments/suggestions?

Russ



From joebsd1 at yahoo.com  Sun Apr  7 12:41:25 2002
From: joebsd1 at yahoo.com (joe bsd)
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 12:41:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Link Farm of Sysadmin interest...
In-Reply-To: <HEEMKGJDBMHGLNPAFEJFIELOCBAA.rjwitte@rjwitte.com>
Message-ID: <20020407194125.68296.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com>

That looks good.

But what about joker.com for name registration and
www.netbsd.org?  I guess there is no end to the stuff
you could put there.

Guy



--- "Russel J. Witte" <rjwitte at rjwitte.com> wrote:
> http://www.nerdvanna.org
> 
> I ran a little bit with Strata Rose's idea and created a new website
> intended to spotlight stuff that "Nerds" might
> like....
> 
> And to use as a central location for important links ...
> 
> Any comments/suggestions?
> 
> Russ
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/


From mike at caressofsteel.net  Sun Apr  7 14:12:49 2002
From: mike at caressofsteel.net (Michael Gracy)
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 14:12:49 -0700
Subject: Link Farm of Sysadmin interest...
References: <HEEMKGJDBMHGLNPAFEJFIELOCBAA.rjwitte@rjwitte.com>
Message-ID: <001701c1de78$fc14d4f0$960a120a@thor>

Among the web editors, you forgot CoffeeCup.  
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Russel J. Witte" <rjwitte at rjwitte.com>
To: <baylisa at baylisa.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2002 9:35 AM
Subject: Link Farm of Sysadmin interest...


> http://www.nerdvanna.org
> 
> I ran a little bit with Strata Rose's idea and created a new website
> intended to spotlight stuff that "Nerds" might
> like....
> 
> And to use as a central location for important links ...
> 
> Any comments/suggestions?
> 
> Russ
> 
> 
> 



From rjwitte at rjwitte.com  Sun Apr  7 14:50:57 2002
From: rjwitte at rjwitte.com (Russel J. Witte)
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 14:50:57 -0700
Subject: Link Farm of Sysadmin interest...
In-Reply-To: <001701c1de78$fc14d4f0$960a120a@thor>
Message-ID: <HEEMKGJDBMHGLNPAFEJFEELPCBAA.rjwitte@rjwitte.com>

How about helping me out with urls too??

Thanks.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-baylisa at baylisa.org [mailto:owner-baylisa at baylisa.org]On
Behalf Of Michael Gracy
Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2002 2:13 PM
To: baylisa at baylisa.org
Subject: Re: Link Farm of Sysadmin interest...


Among the web editors, you forgot CoffeeCup.  
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Russel J. Witte" <rjwitte at rjwitte.com>
To: <baylisa at baylisa.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2002 9:35 AM
Subject: Link Farm of Sysadmin interest...


> http://www.nerdvanna.org
> 
> I ran a little bit with Strata Rose's idea and created a new website
> intended to spotlight stuff that "Nerds" might
> like....
> 
> And to use as a central location for important links ...
> 
> Any comments/suggestions?
> 
> Russ
> 
> 
> 




From mike at caressofsteel.net  Sun Apr  7 16:40:40 2002
From: mike at caressofsteel.net (Michael Gracy)
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 16:40:40 -0700
Subject: Link Farm of Sysadmin interest...
References: <HEEMKGJDBMHGLNPAFEJFEELPCBAA.rjwitte@rjwitte.com>
Message-ID: <002801c1de8d$a621c2f0$960a120a@thor>

Sorry, www.coffeecup.com, but I thought it would be obvious.  My bad.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Russel J. Witte" <rjwitte at rjwitte.com>
To: "Michael Gracy" <mike at caressofsteel.net>
Cc: <baylisa at baylisa.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2002 2:50 PM
Subject: RE: Link Farm of Sysadmin interest...


> How about helping me out with urls too??
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-baylisa at baylisa.org [mailto:owner-baylisa at baylisa.org]On
> Behalf Of Michael Gracy
> Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2002 2:13 PM
> To: baylisa at baylisa.org
> Subject: Re: Link Farm of Sysadmin interest...
> 
> 
> Among the web editors, you forgot CoffeeCup.  
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Russel J. Witte" <rjwitte at rjwitte.com>
> To: <baylisa at baylisa.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2002 9:35 AM
> Subject: Link Farm of Sysadmin interest...
> 
> 
> > http://www.nerdvanna.org
> > 
> > I ran a little bit with Strata Rose's idea and created a new website
> > intended to spotlight stuff that "Nerds" might
> > like....
> > 
> > And to use as a central location for important links ...
> > 
> > Any comments/suggestions?
> > 
> > Russ
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 



From strata at virtual.net  Tue Apr  9 16:52:13 2002
From: strata at virtual.net (Strata Rose Chalup)
Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 16:52:13 -0700
Subject: LISA'02 abstracts deadline is April 29!
Message-ID: <3CB37EAD.F4D2BFA@virtual.net>


Since LISA is in mid-November this year due to hotel scheduling
quirks, the deadline for abstracts is "early" compared to past years.

If you have an idea for a paper that you've been meaning to write up,
now is the time to start!  If you have the skeleton of an abstract,
and need some help with it, send it to me.   I will either help you
myself or arrange for a mentor/shepherd to help with opinions,
proofreading, and general nudging.  

I know we've got some folks doing cool stuff out there.  If having
your 15 minutes of fame doesn't inspire you, how about this?  In this
economy it's a lot easier to go to a conference if you're being
comped registration as an author presenting a refereed paper!  

Dates:  http://www.usenix.org/events/lisa02/cfp/dates.html
Guidelines:  http://www.usenix.org/events/lisa02/cfp/papers.html

Cheers,
Strata

BayLISA Board of Directors
LISA'02 Invited Talk Co-Chair
-- 
========================================================================
Strata Rose Chalup [KF6NBZ]                      strata "@" virtual.net
VirtualNet Consulting                            http://www.virtual.net/
 ** Project Management & Architecture for ISP/ASP Systems Integration **
=========================================================================


From star at gemini.starshine.org  Thu Apr 11 13:38:17 2002
From: star at gemini.starshine.org (Heather Stern)
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 13:38:17 -0700
Subject: BayLISA meets next Thurs,  18 Apr, 7:30 pm
Message-ID: <20020411133817.A19576@gemini.starshine.org>


  If you're the sort of person who knows for sure that they can't make it
  to something unless it's solidmly marked in their schedule, then get your
  pen, PIM, or stylus ready...

  BayLISA is meeting next week, on Thursday, in the evening.

        Topic    - Avoiding Drowning in Your Own Log Files
        Speaker  - Adam Sah
        When     - 7:30 pm until oh, 9:30 or so... expect to get out around 10.
        Where    - Incyte Genomics HQ
                   3160 Porter Drive
                   Palo Alto
 
... The Topic

   Server systems invariably write detailed activity logs, whose value is
   widespread... just creating or storing a million records is a problem,
   much less actually trying to get your real data back out of them.

   Adam will discuss what sort of weaponry has been tried on the modern 
   version of the paper tiger, the technology Addamark is trying to bring
   to the fray, and present, as he quotes Tom Lehrer "a modest example" --
   running SQL+perl in parallel across a cluster of Linux-based PCs.

... The Speaker

  Adam Sah bears an MS degree from Berkeley, where he specialized in 
  distributed databases and programming languages.  His MS thesis (compiling
  TCL) was accepted to the TCL language core in v8.0.   With years of 
  experience with the headaches of such large enterprises as Inktomi, Ovid 
  (now a division of Kluwer), Cohera (now part of PeopleSoft) and iPIX 
  (exclusive provider of eBay photohosting), Adam decided in 1995 to sign
  up for the super-max-pack size.  He is currently the co-founder and CTO 
  of Addamark Technologies, which makes software to manage enterprise log 
  data, a source of recurring nightmares for him since 1995.  :D

... The Place   

  Porter Drive is between Foothill Expressway and El Camino, along Page Mill i
  Rd.

  Travelling:
     south (From Foothill/280) -- turn right
     north (from El Camino)    -- turn left

  It's the third driveway on the right: 
     1. Wall Street Journal 
     2. right next to 3 
     3. silver monolith with Lockheed Martin and Incyte Genomics logos on it 
        - shiny enough that they're both hard to see.  

  Incyte is the building in the back.  We'll see you there if you can make it :)

... The Usual

  Do let us know on the wheels list, blw at baylisa.org, if you desire to borrow
  a past tape so we can bring it along.
  
  Enjoying the meetings?  Good :D  We now have two methods for membership:
  the good old fashioned "money in your pocket" method, make sure to bring
  your checkbook or visit the ATM in the cafeteria;  and the brand new, 
  online with Paypal method.  Either one will help us bring in speakers from
  all over the place and maybe even provide a little Hospitality at the area
  conferemces.  For everyone who's already a member, thanks!

  Corporate sponsorships are now being actively sought.  If your company would
  like to be known as a Sponsor of BayLISA contact Alberto Bagliomini via
  email to treasurer at baylisa.org, for details and the benefits.  Some present
  corporate sponsors have expired so there is room for new interest.

  A bunch of us like to go to a nearby restaurant afterwards for pizza, 
  sandwiches, snacks, drinks, and more conversation.  NOTE: This month we 
  intend to go to a new location... so make sure to stick around long enough
  for directions.

-* Heather Stern * Arch (secretary) BayLISA Board * http://www.baylisa.org/ *-



From baylisa-local at merlins.org  Sat Apr 13 00:28:11 2002
From: baylisa-local at merlins.org (Marc MERLIN)
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 00:28:11 -0700
Subject: My last plea,
In-Reply-To: <20020227225859.40059.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com>; from joebsd1@yahoo.com on Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 02:58:59PM -0800
References: <20020227183433.R4069@notfound.rayw.com> <20020227225859.40059.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020413002811.O21313@merlins.org>

On Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 02:58:59PM -0800, joe bsd wrote:
> I have been to Sun Microystems and looked at box after box full
> of H1-B visa applications. So many, I couldn't count them all.  And
> that was just for 2001, a recession year.   Some of the LCA's were
> for my exact job and probably yours, too.  I looked at all those
> boxes of LCA's and thought about the thousands of workers that Sun
> laid off in 2001.  I thought about the thousands of qualified
> American workers looking for work.  It made me sick.

I  know this  is  a  rather old  thread,  but since  I  just  spent 3  weeks
interviewing for  sysadmin candidates in  my company, I'd say  the following
thing  (and I'll  disclose  that I'm  a former  H1-B  holder, now  permanent
resident)
 
H1-B workers who aren't top notch clearly should not be taken over Americans
right now. While  it sucks for  them, if they  lose their current  job, they
should go home.

Now, if they are top notch, then it's not the same.
While they are many  people who are looking for a job  in the sysadmin field
right now, I'm sorry to say that many of them plain suck. They actually also
sucked when jobs were plentiful, but companies were so desparate for bodies,
that they did get jobs.
Now, it's different, jobs ain't plentiful  anymore, and if you were not that
good to start with, you're probably toast
What has  made me sick were  the complete cluebies that  got important, high
paying jobs, and  got away with it. I'm quite happy  that things have become
more sane again.

I  do realize  however that  in the  process, some  very skilled  people are
without jobs,  especially in specialized  fields that just don't  require as
many people anymore, but  for the most part, the skilled  people I knew have
found other jobs with very few exceptions.

So yes, if  companies get away with firing US  employees, and replacing them
with H1-B  holders of similar  or lesser skill,  this ain't right  (with the
exception of  cases where  the people fired  were getting  paid ridiculously
high salaries), but  if companies are taking advantage of  the job market to
replace some  of their employees with  ones that have a  better skillset and
may have  more reasonable salary  demands too,  it's life, whether  the said
replacement employees are H1-B workers or not.

I'll  maintain  that  for the  most  part,  it's  still  hard to  find  good
people. You should see the losers I  had to interview, with 10 page resumes,
and senior in this or that, when they really knew Jack...
(only 4 out of the 15 people interviewed were actually worth talking to, and
that was for a junior and a senior position)

> I'm NOT trying to start a racist movement.  I have had responses from
> people who are themselves recent immigrants and former H1-B's and
> they agree with me 100%.  If it were really true(And it's not) that
> we can't find enough American workers for some of our best jobs, in a
> nation of 300,000,000, is the H1-B a real solution?  The real
> solution should be education 

That's what people keep  saying, but in the meantime, I'm  sorry to tell you
that the education system in this country is abysmal. Companies weren't only
picking H1-B  workers because  they were  cheaper (I can  assure you  that I
wasn't cheaper), but because many of them were more skilled.
H1-B  holders for  the most  part aren't  smarter than  Americans, but  they
studied a  hell of a lot  harder in school, and  had the chance of  going to
schools that were more challenging and set the bar a lot higher.
I've  seen many  smart Americans  being severely  held back  in school  here
because  of the  general lowered  expectations and  setting the  bar at  the
lowest common denominator.
If you want to  be educated here, you not only have to  be smart, but have a
lot of initiative to study on your own and/or get yourself in one of the few
good schools that this country does have, and hope that money doesn't get in
the way.
In the meantime, California still ranks  48th for the quality of its schools
in this country, doesn't it? (I might be off by a couple of spots).
Isn't this ironic?

> and training. 

Sometimes,  but people  who  ain't  that bright  and  don't  have that  much
initiative to  start with  can be  made a  bit more  useful, but  will never
become as  useful as the people  who are smarter, more  self sufficient, and
just pick things up or study by  themselves so that they don't need training
in the first place.

Many people  can become  decent helpdesk folks. Few  can become  good senior
sysadmins, such is life.
(obviously most people on this list, are in the senior sysadmin category)

Marc
-- 
Microsoft is to operating systems & security ....
                                      .... what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
  
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/   |   Finger marc_f at merlins.org for PGP key


From joebsd1 at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 13 03:31:40 2002
From: joebsd1 at yahoo.com (joe bsd)
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 03:31:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: My last plea,
In-Reply-To: <20020413002811.O21313@merlins.org>
Message-ID: <20020413103140.43268.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com>

Thanks for your belated reply,

This may be an old thread, but I'm still out there.

I'm not happy with what I see of the education system
either.  It seems that they are so concerned with making
everyone feel good, they can hardly agree on the use
of standardized tests.  In some countries the kids are
competing in middle school to see who gets to go the
good high school.  In South Korea the high school seniors
stay at the school until 10:30 PM studying for the college
entrance exam.  

Here in the US, colleges can waive test scores and admit some people just
to make sure they get the right quotas of "minorities".  I know some
people think that is fair.  I don't share that view.


About the H-1B visa program; What about the average guy who still
would be working if it weren't for the H-1B program.  Shouldn't he
fight to protect his job.  Nobody else is going to do it for him.
We all want to live and support our families.

What about the expert who could have commanded a high salary if
there were no H-1B visa program?  But, now because the company
can hire experts from all over the world he is only worth 75% of
what he could get in a tight market.  This is what happens when
immigration laws can control the supply of labor.  It shouldn't be
surprising that people are upset.


Out of control immigration will not help this country in
the long run.  

I collected some information and put it on line.
Read it at your own risk:

http://www.sunclassaction.com

It's a work in progress.


--Guy


--- Marc MERLIN <baylisa-local at merlins.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 02:58:59PM -0800, joe bsd wrote:
> > I have been to Sun Microystems and looked at box after box full
> > of H1-B visa applications. So many, I couldn't count them all.  And
> > that was just for 2001, a recession year.   Some of the LCA's were
> > for my exact job and probably yours, too.  I looked at all those
> > boxes of LCA's and thought about the thousands of workers that Sun
> > laid off in 2001.  I thought about the thousands of qualified
> > American workers looking for work.  It made me sick.
> 
> I  know this  is  a  rather old  thread,  but since  I  just  spent 3 
> weeks
> interviewing for  sysadmin candidates in  my company, I'd say  the
> following
> thing  (and I'll  disclose  that I'm  a former  H1-B  holder, now 
> permanent
> resident)
>  
> H1-B workers who aren't top notch clearly should not be taken over
> Americans
> right now. While  it sucks for  them, if they  lose their current  job,
> they
> should go home.
> 
> Now, if they are top notch, then it's not the same.
> While they are many  people who are looking for a job  in the sysadmin
> field
> right now, I'm sorry to say that many of them plain suck. They actually
> also
> sucked when jobs were plentiful, but companies were so desparate for
> bodies,
> that they did get jobs.
> Now, it's different, jobs ain't plentiful  anymore, and if you were not
> that
> good to start with, you're probably toast
> What has  made me sick were  the complete cluebies that  got important,
> high
> paying jobs, and  got away with it. I'm quite happy  that things have
> become
> more sane again.
> 
> I  do realize  however that  in the  process, some  very skilled  people
> are
> without jobs,  especially in specialized  fields that just don't 
> require as
> many people anymore, but  for the most part, the skilled  people I knew
> have
> found other jobs with very few exceptions.
> 
> So yes, if  companies get away with firing US  employees, and replacing
> them
> with H1-B  holders of similar  or lesser skill,  this ain't right  (with
> the
> exception of  cases where  the people fired  were getting  paid
> ridiculously
> high salaries), but  if companies are taking advantage of  the job
> market to
> replace some  of their employees with  ones that have a  better skillset
> and
> may have  more reasonable salary  demands too,  it's life, whether  the
> said
> replacement employees are H1-B workers or not.
> 
> I'll  maintain  that  for the  most  part,  it's  still  hard to  find 
> good
> people. You should see the losers I  had to interview, with 10 page
> resumes,
> and senior in this or that, when they really knew Jack...
> (only 4 out of the 15 people interviewed were actually worth talking to,
> and
> that was for a junior and a senior position)
> 
> > I'm NOT trying to start a racist movement.  I have had responses from
> > people who are themselves recent immigrants and former H1-B's and
> > they agree with me 100%.  If it were really true(And it's not) that
> > we can't find enough American workers for some of our best jobs, in a
> > nation of 300,000,000, is the H1-B a real solution?  The real
> > solution should be education 
> 
> That's what people keep  saying, but in the meantime, I'm  sorry to tell
> you
> that the education system in this country is abysmal. Companies weren't
> only
> picking H1-B  workers because  they were  cheaper (I can  assure you 
> that I
> wasn't cheaper), but because many of them were more skilled.
> H1-B  holders for  the most  part aren't  smarter than  Americans, but 
> they
> studied a  hell of a lot  harder in school, and  had the chance of 
> going to
> schools that were more challenging and set the bar a lot higher.
> I've  seen many  smart Americans  being severely  held back  in school 
> here
> because  of the  general lowered  expectations and  setting the  bar at 
> the
> lowest common denominator.
> If you want to  be educated here, you not only have to  be smart, but
> have a
> lot of initiative to study on your own and/or get yourself in one of the
> few
> good schools that this country does have, and hope that money doesn't
> get in
> the way.
> In the meantime, California still ranks  48th for the quality of its
> schools
> in this country, doesn't it? (I might be off by a couple of spots).
> Isn't this ironic?
> 
> > and training. 
> 
> Sometimes,  but people  who  ain't  that bright  and  don't  have that 
> much
> initiative to  start with  can be  made a  bit more  useful, but  will
> never
> become as  useful as the people  who are smarter, more  self sufficient,
> and
> just pick things up or study by  themselves so that they don't need
> training
> in the first place.
> 
> Many people  can become  decent helpdesk folks. Few  can become  good
> senior
> sysadmins, such is life.
> (obviously most people on this list, are in the senior sysadmin
> category)
> 
> Marc
> -- 
> Microsoft is to operating systems & security ....
>                                       .... what McDonalds is to gourmet
> cooking
>   
> Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/   |   Finger marc_f at merlins.org for
> PGP key



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/


From gwen at reptiles.org  Sat Apr 13 05:08:08 2002
From: gwen at reptiles.org (Gwendolynn ferch Elydyr)
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 08:08:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: My last plea,
In-Reply-To: <20020413103140.43268.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020413080758.H2435-100000@iguana.reptiles.org>

On Sat, 13 Apr 2002, joe bsd wrote:

*PLONK*



From pdevasto at hotmail.com  Sat Apr 13 08:52:06 2002
From: pdevasto at hotmail.com (Pete De Vasto)
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 08:52:06 -0700
Subject: Fw: BayLISA meets next Thurs,  18 Apr, 7:30 pm
Message-ID: <OE47BRArVc4Iu1B6gVs00000ade@hotmail.com>

Hi there:

Is there anybody going to this meeting who lives in the San
Carlos/Belmont/San Mateo area who would be willing to give me a ride home
afterwards?  I live right by the Carlmont Shopping Center, at Ralston and
the Alameda.

Thanks,
Pete De Vasto
----- Original Message -----
From: "Heather Stern" <star at gemini.starshine.org>
To: <baylisa at baylisa.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 1:38 PM
Subject: BayLISA meets next Thurs, 18 Apr, 7:30 pm


>
>   If you're the sort of person who knows for sure that they can't make it
>   to something unless it's solidmly marked in their schedule, then get
your
>   pen, PIM, or stylus ready...
>
>   BayLISA is meeting next week, on Thursday, in the evening.
>
>         Topic    - Avoiding Drowning in Your Own Log Files
>         Speaker  - Adam Sah
>         When     - 7:30 pm until oh, 9:30 or so... expect to get out
around 10.
>         Where    - Incyte Genomics HQ
>                    3160 Porter Drive
>                    Palo Alto
>
> ... The Topic
>
>    Server systems invariably write detailed activity logs, whose value is
>    widespread... just creating or storing a million records is a problem,
>    much less actually trying to get your real data back out of them.
>
>    Adam will discuss what sort of weaponry has been tried on the modern
>    version of the paper tiger, the technology Addamark is trying to bring
>    to the fray, and present, as he quotes Tom Lehrer "a modest example" --
>    running SQL+perl in parallel across a cluster of Linux-based PCs.
>
> ... The Speaker
>
>   Adam Sah bears an MS degree from Berkeley, where he specialized in
>   distributed databases and programming languages.  His MS thesis
(compiling
>   TCL) was accepted to the TCL language core in v8.0.   With years of
>   experience with the headaches of such large enterprises as Inktomi, Ovid
>   (now a division of Kluwer), Cohera (now part of PeopleSoft) and iPIX
>   (exclusive provider of eBay photohosting), Adam decided in 1995 to sign
>   up for the super-max-pack size.  He is currently the co-founder and CTO
>   of Addamark Technologies, which makes software to manage enterprise log
>   data, a source of recurring nightmares for him since 1995.  :D
>
> ... The Place
>
>   Porter Drive is between Foothill Expressway and El Camino, along Page
Mill i
>   Rd.
>
>   Travelling:
>      south (From Foothill/280) -- turn right
>      north (from El Camino)    -- turn left
>
>   It's the third driveway on the right:
>      1. Wall Street Journal
>      2. right next to 3
>      3. silver monolith with Lockheed Martin and Incyte Genomics logos on
it
>         - shiny enough that they're both hard to see.
>
>   Incyte is the building in the back.  We'll see you there if you can make
it :)
>
> ... The Usual
>
>   Do let us know on the wheels list, blw at baylisa.org, if you desire to
borrow
>   a past tape so we can bring it along.
>
>   Enjoying the meetings?  Good :D  We now have two methods for membership:
>   the good old fashioned "money in your pocket" method, make sure to bring
>   your checkbook or visit the ATM in the cafeteria;  and the brand new,
>   online with Paypal method.  Either one will help us bring in speakers
from
>   all over the place and maybe even provide a little Hospitality at the
area
>   conferemces.  For everyone who's already a member, thanks!
>
>   Corporate sponsorships are now being actively sought.  If your company
would
>   like to be known as a Sponsor of BayLISA contact Alberto Bagliomini via
>   email to treasurer at baylisa.org, for details and the benefits.  Some
present
>   corporate sponsors have expired so there is room for new interest.
>
>   A bunch of us like to go to a nearby restaurant afterwards for pizza,
>   sandwiches, snacks, drinks, and more conversation.  NOTE: This month we
>   intend to go to a new location... so make sure to stick around long
enough
>   for directions.
>
> -* Heather Stern * Arch (secretary) BayLISA Board *
http://www.baylisa.org/ *-
>
>


From nouveaux at lightconsulting.com  Sat Apr 13 11:18:01 2002
From: nouveaux at lightconsulting.com (Dean Kao)
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 11:18:01 -0700
Subject: rack related issues
Message-ID: <20020413111800.A78093@shaitan.lightconsulting.com>

Hey guys

   I was wondering where in the bay area I can pickup a rack,
patch panel, and a rack mountable switch.  I know I can get
these a rack and a patch panel at Frys but I dont think I've
seen a rack mountable switch there.  Are there places that
sell more rack mountable equipment around?  I'm also looking
for cisco 2500s locally too.
   In terms of the rack, can people with install experience give me
some advice?  Anything would be great.

Thanks!!
Dean  


From mike at caressofsteel.net  Sat Apr 13 13:29:22 2002
From: mike at caressofsteel.net (Michael Gracy)
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 13:29:22 -0700
Subject: rack related issues
References: <20020413111800.A78093@shaitan.lightconsulting.com>
Message-ID: <002001c1e329$e8df7f10$960a120a@thor>

What kinds of questions do you have?  I'm sure there are plenty of people
here that can answer them, including myself.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dean Kao" <nouveaux at lightconsulting.com>
To: <baylisa at baylisa.org>
Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 11:18 AM
Subject: rack related issues


> Hey guys
>
>    I was wondering where in the bay area I can pickup a rack,
> patch panel, and a rack mountable switch.  I know I can get
> these a rack and a patch panel at Frys but I dont think I've
> seen a rack mountable switch there.  Are there places that
> sell more rack mountable equipment around?  I'm also looking
> for cisco 2500s locally too.
>    In terms of the rack, can people with install experience give me
> some advice?  Anything would be great.
>
> Thanks!!
> Dean
>
>



From claw at kanga.nu  Sat Apr 13 13:56:03 2002
From: claw at kanga.nu (J C Lawrence)
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 13:56:03 -0700
Subject: rack related issues 
In-Reply-To: Message from Dean Kao <nouveaux@lightconsulting.com> 
   of "Sat, 13 Apr 2002 11:18:01 PDT." <20020413111800.A78093@shaitan.lightconsulting.com> 
References: <20020413111800.A78093@shaitan.lightconsulting.com> 
Message-ID: <16786.1018731363@kanga.nu>

On Sat, 13 Apr 2002 11:18:01 -0700 
Dean Kao <nouveaux at lightconsulting.com> wrote:

> Hey guys I was wondering where in the bay area I can pickup a rack,
> patch panel, and a rack mountable switch.  

You should have been at the CowanAlexander auction a couple days ago.
Tons of it there.

For now, have a look at WeirdStuff.  They've had a nice stock of racks
(4 and 2 post, doors and open, patch panels etc the last few times I've
been.  Rack mountable switches I happen to be in the market for myself
(need some 10/100 stuff).  I'll probably pick up a couple SVEC 8-port
jobs off Ebay for $25/ea if I don't find (say) a couple decently priced
BayStacks locally.

-- 
J C Lawrence                
---------(*)                Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. 
claw at kanga.nu               He lived as a devil, eh?		  
http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/  Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live.


From berry at housebsd.org  Sat Apr 13 14:13:49 2002
From: berry at housebsd.org (Sean Berry)
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 16:13:49 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: rack related issues 
In-Reply-To: <16786.1018731363@kanga.nu>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.10.10204131612450.992-100000@corona.housebsd.org>


On Sat, 13 Apr 2002, J C Lawrence wrote:
> Dean Kao <nouveaux at lightconsulting.com> wrote:
> 
> > Hey guys I was wondering where in the bay area I can pickup a rack,
> > patch panel, and a rack mountable switch.  
> 
> You should have been at the CowanAlexander auction a couple days ago.
> Tons of it there.
> 
> For now, have a look at WeirdStuff.  They've had a nice stock of racks
> (4 and 2 post, doors and open, patch panels etc the last few times I've
> been.  Rack mountable switches I happen to be in the market for myself
> (need some 10/100 stuff).  I'll probably pick up a couple SVEC 8-port
> jobs off Ebay for $25/ea if I don't find (say) a couple decently priced
> BayStacks locally.

Much of that sort of gear ends up at UNIX Surplus in Santa Clara, 
408 752 0455.  

--
Sean Berry works with many flavors of UNIX, but especially Solaris/SPARC and
NetBSD.  His hobbies include graphics and raytracing.  He drinks coke mostly.
His opinions are not necessarily those of his employers.        650/281-6610 



From baylisa-local at merlins.org  Sat Apr 13 15:17:06 2002
From: baylisa-local at merlins.org (Marc MERLIN)
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 15:17:06 -0700
Subject: My last plea,
In-Reply-To: <20020413103140.43268.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020413002811.O21313@merlins.org> <20020413103140.43268.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020413221706.GG8415@merlins.org>

On Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 03:31:40AM -0700, joe bsd wrote:
> I'm not happy  with what I see  of the education system  either.  It seems
> that they are so concerned with making everyone feel good, they can hardly

You can  say that again,  and parents are equally  to blame for  blaming the
teachers  and the  schools instead  of kicking  their kids  in the  ass when
they're not working hard enough (or at all)
But this doesn't seem fashionable, everyone's  kid is smart enough and works
hard enough.
Kids are smart, and many will work together to bring the class level down so
that they have to work less and pass anyway, I've seen this with my own eyes

(the whole statement is obviously  and over-generalization, it doesn't apply
to everyone, and thankfully there are still good parents out there)

For the rest, after having a peak at
> http://www.sunclassaction.com

I wanted  to apologize  to the rest  of this list  for bringing  this thread
back. Your web site shows clearly that their  is no point to reason with you
and that you are too far gone.

Sorry for the noise and back to lurking.

Marc
-- 
Microsoft is to operating systems & security ....
                                      .... what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
  
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/   |   Finger marc_f at merlins.org for PGP key


From joebsd1 at yahoo.com  Sat Apr 13 16:02:49 2002
From: joebsd1 at yahoo.com (joe bsd)
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 16:02:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: My last plea,
In-Reply-To: <20020413221706.GG8415@merlins.org>
Message-ID: <20020413230249.10235.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com>

I'm also sorry for responding,

But, everytime I try to get out, they just keep pulling me back in.

--Guy

http://www.sunclassaction.com



--- Marc MERLIN <baylisa-local at merlins.org> wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 03:31:40AM -0700, joe bsd wrote:
> > I'm not happy  with what I see  of the education system  either.  It
> seems
> > that they are so concerned with making everyone feel good, they can
> hardly
> 
> You can  say that again,  and parents are equally  to blame for  blaming
> the
> teachers  and the  schools instead  of kicking  their kids  in the  ass
> when
> they're not working hard enough (or at all)
> But this doesn't seem fashionable, everyone's  kid is smart enough and
> works
> hard enough.
> Kids are smart, and many will work together to bring the class level
> down so
> that they have to work less and pass anyway, I've seen this with my own
> eyes
> 
> (the whole statement is obviously  and over-generalization, it doesn't
> apply
> to everyone, and thankfully there are still good parents out there)
> 
> For the rest, after having a peak at
> > http://www.sunclassaction.com
> 
> I wanted  to apologize  to the rest  of this list  for bringing  this
> thread
> back. Your web site shows clearly that their  is no point to reason with
> you
> and that you are too far gone.
> 
> Sorry for the noise and back to lurking.
> 
> Marc
> -- 
> Microsoft is to operating systems & security ....
>                                       .... what McDonalds is to gourmet
> cooking
>   
> Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/   |   Finger marc_f at merlins.org for
> PGP key


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/


From claw at kanga.nu  Sat Apr 13 20:37:14 2002
From: claw at kanga.nu (J C Lawrence)
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 20:37:14 -0700
Subject: rack related issues 
In-Reply-To: Message from Sean Berry <berry@housebsd.org> 
   of "Sat, 13 Apr 2002 16:13:49 CDT." <Pine.NEB.4.10.10204131612450.992-100000@corona.housebsd.org> 
References: <Pine.NEB.4.10.10204131612450.992-100000@corona.housebsd.org> 
Message-ID: <20716.1018755434@kanga.nu>

On Sat, 13 Apr 2002 16:13:49 -0500 (CDT) 
Sean Berry <berry at housebsd.org> wrote:

> Much of that sort of gear ends up at UNIX Surplus in Santa Clara, 408
> 752 0455.

Address?

I'm having a tough time finding decently priced 34" rack rails.

-- 
J C Lawrence                
---------(*)                Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. 
claw at kanga.nu               He lived as a devil, eh?		  
http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/  Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live.


From rower at MovieEditor.com  Sun Apr 14 00:11:34 2002
From: rower at MovieEditor.com (Robin Rowe)
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 00:11:34 -0700
Subject: My last plea,
References: <20020413103140.43268.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <009601c1e383$9c730890$0301a8c0@rowboat>

> joe bsd wrote:
> About the H-1B visa program; What about the average guy who still
> would be working if it weren't for the H-1B program.  Shouldn't he
> fight to protect his job.  Nobody else is going to do it for him.
> We all want to live and support our families.

A parallel argument is that the country's workers need protection from
*computers* (and therefore sysadmins), because automation puts average
people out of work who need to live and support their families.

Robin



From jhoney at flash.net  Sun Apr 14 08:43:46 2002
From: jhoney at flash.net (jhoney at flash.net)
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 10:43:46 -0500
Subject: rack related issues
References: <20020413111800.A78093@shaitan.lightconsulting.com>
Message-ID: <3CB9A3B2.1090905@flash.net>

As much as I am peeved with the people who run ebay based on their 
non-enforcement of their own spam policies, I cannot deny the fact that 
their venue of making purchases can save you major simoles.  You can 
drill into it from a number of directions and ultimately specify that 
you only see auctions/products in your area.  Beyond that:

    - look for somebody who has a 'lot' of auctions
    - anybody with more than 5% of negative feedback is to be avoided
    - pay close attention to any negative feedback they have had in the 
last 12 months
    - pay attention to shipping
    - if shopping locally, you'll pay sales tax but usually avoid shipping
    - confirm with seller, if local, that you can arrange to pick up the 
product
    - allow several days for seller to reply to any questions you pose
    - don't bid on anything if you haven't gotten your important 
questions resolved to your satisfaction
    - despite what ebay sez, I almost always try to reserve my last 
bidding for what they call 'sniping'.  Get on a high bandwidth line and 
be prepared to submit your best & final bid in the last 20 seconds of 
bidding
    - to understand how the price changes in the last 20 minutes, look 
at some auctions that have closed recently and pull up the bid history.
    - I typically am opposed to bidding on anything that has a seller's 
reserve.

Good hunting.

===

Dean Kao wrote:

>Hey guys
>
>   I was wondering where in the bay area I can pickup a rack,
>patch panel, and a rack mountable switch.  I know I can get
>these a rack and a patch panel at Frys but I dont think I've
>seen a rack mountable switch there.  Are there places that
>sell more rack mountable equipment around?  I'm also looking
>for cisco 2500s locally too.
>   In terms of the rack, can people with install experience give me
>some advice?  Anything would be great.
>
>Thanks!!
>Dean  
>




From chuck+baylisa at snew.com  Sun Apr 14 09:31:52 2002
From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes)
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 09:31:52 -0700
Subject: My last plea,
In-Reply-To: <009601c1e383$9c730890$0301a8c0@rowboat>; from rower@MovieEditor.com on Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 12:11:34AM -0700
References: <20020413103140.43268.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> <009601c1e383$9c730890$0301a8c0@rowboat>
Message-ID: <20020414093152.A22877@snew.com>

Geez, and here I thought the problem was the Irish/Freed slaves/
Italians/Chinese/Mexicans/Other recent immigrant group.  (okay,
mexico was right here 160 years ago, but).

I've avoided this thread, but I'm seeing EXACT repeats of labor/
immigrant issues over the last, hmmm, 40,000 years? (damn neanderthals,
taking perfectly good jobs from the sapiens).

The H1B issue that I see as fixable was the increase that Congress
allowed during a boom.  Congress responds to "to continue to be an
american success story, we need people, and there aren't any"

As has been brought up the first time this thread was alive: If
it's whining about them dang furiners coming and taking our jobs,
then whine elsewhere.  Yeah, I've worked with folks who had few
skills, no imagination and didn't cut it.  The vast majority of the
time, I've worked with folks who have busted their butts, been well
educated and able to learn new things.  Oh, both H1B and American
citizens.

If your goal is to advocate a SPECIFIC action - call your representative
(free for Working Assetts Long Distance subscribers), tell them to
support or vote against bill number HRxxx, then great.  Offer that.

Otherwise, please let this thread go back to rest.

Quoting Robin Rowe (rower at MovieEditor.com):
> > joe bsd wrote:
> > About the H-1B visa program; What about the average guy who still
> > would be working if it weren't for the H-1B program.  Shouldn't he
> > fight to protect his job.  Nobody else is going to do it for him.
> > We all want to live and support our families.
> 
> A parallel argument is that the country's workers need protection from
> *computers* (and therefore sysadmins), because automation puts average
> people out of work who need to live and support their families.



From joebsd1 at yahoo.com  Sun Apr 14 11:28:13 2002
From: joebsd1 at yahoo.com (joe bsd)
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 11:28:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: My last plea,
In-Reply-To: <20020414093152.A22877@snew.com>
Message-ID: <20020414182813.78909.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com>

Chuck Yerkes wrote:
> If your goal is to advocate a SPECIFIC action - call your representative
> (free for Working Assetts Long Distance subscribers), tell them to
> support or vote against bill number HRxxx, then great.  Offer that.

Thats exactly what I think people should do and here is a site
that makes it easy to stay informed of immigration issues that
affect us all.

http://www.numbersusa.org/index


http://www.diversityalliance.org/

Let's let this thread die before people start getting
upset.  I'll be happy to answer anybody's email if
they send it to me directly.

Take care


--- Chuck Yerkes <chuck+baylisa at snew.com> wrote:
> Geez, and here I thought the problem was the Irish/Freed slaves/
> Italians/Chinese/Mexicans/Other recent immigrant group.  (okay,
> mexico was right here 160 years ago, but).
> 
> I've avoided this thread, but I'm seeing EXACT repeats of labor/
> immigrant issues over the last, hmmm, 40,000 years? (damn neanderthals,
> taking perfectly good jobs from the sapiens).
> 
> The H1B issue that I see as fixable was the increase that Congress
> allowed during a boom.  Congress responds to "to continue to be an
> american success story, we need people, and there aren't any"
> 
> As has been brought up the first time this thread was alive: If
> it's whining about them dang furiners coming and taking our jobs,
> then whine elsewhere.  Yeah, I've worked with folks who had few
> skills, no imagination and didn't cut it.  The vast majority of the
> time, I've worked with folks who have busted their butts, been well
> educated and able to learn new things.  Oh, both H1B and American
> citizens.
> 
> If your goal is to advocate a SPECIFIC action - call your representative
> (free for Working Assetts Long Distance subscribers), tell them to
> support or vote against bill number HRxxx, then great.  Offer that.
> 
> Otherwise, please let this thread go back to rest.
> 
> Quoting Robin Rowe (rower at MovieEditor.com):
> > > joe bsd wrote:
> > > About the H-1B visa program; What about the average guy who still
> > > would be working if it weren't for the H-1B program.  Shouldn't he
> > > fight to protect his job.  Nobody else is going to do it for him.
> > > We all want to live and support our families.
> > 
> > A parallel argument is that the country's workers need protection from
> > *computers* (and therefore sysadmins), because automation puts average
> > people out of work who need to live and support their families.
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/


From star at starshine.org  Mon Apr 15 11:00:55 2002
From: star at starshine.org (Heather Stern)
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 11:00:55 -0700
Subject: rack related issues
In-Reply-To: <20020413111800.A78093@shaitan.lightconsulting.com>
References: <20020413111800.A78093@shaitan.lightconsulting.com>
Message-ID: <20020415110055.A8377@gemini.starshine.org>

On Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 11:18:01AM -0700, Dean Kao wrote:
> Hey guys
> 
>    I was wondering where in the bay area I can pickup a rack,
> patch panel, and a rack mountable switch.  I know I can get
> these a rack and a patch panel at Frys but I dont think I've
> seen a rack mountable switch there.  Are there places that
> sell more rack mountable equipment around?  I'm also looking
> for cisco 2500s locally too.

You can try Halted, aka "HSC"

They definitely have racks - I saw some very tough ones there recently.
Equipment itself varies.

>    In terms of the rack, can people with install experience give me
> some advice?  Anything would be great.
> 
> Thanks!!
> Dean  

I've limited experience in *installing* rack rather than just using them
but I should warn you that there is more than one "standard" size and the
difference has bitten people buying parts to rackmount.


  . | .   Heather Stern                  |         star at starshine.org
--->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - consulting at starshine.org
  ' | `   Sysadmin Support and Training  |        (800) 938-4078


From chuck+baylisa at snew.com  Mon Apr 15 13:17:49 2002
From: chuck+baylisa at snew.com (Chuck Yerkes)
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 13:17:49 -0700
Subject: rack related issues
In-Reply-To: <20020415110055.A8377@gemini.starshine.org>; from star@starshine.org on Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 11:00:55AM -0700
References: <20020413111800.A78093@shaitan.lightconsulting.com> <20020415110055.A8377@gemini.starshine.org>
Message-ID: <20020415131749.D19722@snew.com>

The standard EIA rack is 1U=1.75 inches with threaded holes
that take 6/32 screwed.  I completely forget the spacing between
the holes, but they too are standardized.  These standards date
back to pre-50s and radio racks, I believe.

Quoting Heather Stern (star at starshine.org):
> On Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 11:18:01AM -0700, Dean Kao wrote:
> > Hey guys
> > 
> >    I was wondering where in the bay area I can pickup a rack,
> > patch panel, and a rack mountable switch.  I know I can get
> > these a rack and a patch panel at Frys but I dont think I've
> > seen a rack mountable switch there.  Are there places that
> > sell more rack mountable equipment around?  I'm also looking
> > for cisco 2500s locally too.
> 
> You can try Halted, aka "HSC"
> 
> They definitely have racks - I saw some very tough ones there recently.
> Equipment itself varies.
> 
> >    In terms of the rack, can people with install experience give me
> > some advice?  Anything would be great.
> > 
> > Thanks!!
> > Dean  
> 
> I've limited experience in *installing* rack rather than just using them
> but I should warn you that there is more than one "standard" size and the
> difference has bitten people buying parts to rackmount.
> 
> 
>   . | .   Heather Stern                  |         star at starshine.org
> --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - consulting at starshine.org
>   ' | `   Sysadmin Support and Training  |        (800) 938-4078


From dcurry at cariocas.com  Mon Apr 15 14:11:00 2002
From: dcurry at cariocas.com (Daniel Curry)
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 14:11:00 -0700
Subject: rack related issues
Message-ID: <731E36372B5FD248AF790189519A32C180DF88@mailhub.cgtime.com>

Just an FYI
Wierdstuff USUALLY has several racks in their warehouse.  The pricing is
not bad, either.  Shelves, slides, etc are also available, if you are
willing to look for them.

Daniel Curry
IT Manager
Cariocas
625 Second Street 
Suite 201
San Francisco, CA 94107 
ph: 415-348-6516
fx: 415-348-6505 
cell: 510-579-6680

-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Yerkes [mailto:chuck+baylisa at snew.com]
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 1:18 PM
To: Heather Stern
Cc: Dean Kao; baylisa at baylisa.org
Subject: Re: rack related issues

The standard EIA rack is 1U=1.75 inches with threaded holes
that take 6/32 screwed.  I completely forget the spacing between
the holes, but they too are standardized.  These standards date
back to pre-50s and radio racks, I believe.

Quoting Heather Stern (star at starshine.org):
> On Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 11:18:01AM -0700, Dean Kao wrote:
> > Hey guys
> >
> >    I was wondering where in the bay area I can pickup a rack,
> > patch panel, and a rack mountable switch.  I know I can get
> > these a rack and a patch panel at Frys but I dont think I've
> > seen a rack mountable switch there.  Are there places that
> > sell more rack mountable equipment around?  I'm also looking
> > for cisco 2500s locally too.
>
> You can try Halted, aka "HSC"
>
> They definitely have racks - I saw some very tough ones there
recently.
> Equipment itself varies.
>
> >    In terms of the rack, can people with install experience give me
> > some advice?  Anything would be great.
> >
> > Thanks!!
> > Dean 
>
> I've limited experience in *installing* rack rather than just using
them
> but I should warn you that there is more than one "standard" size and
the
> difference has bitten people buying parts to rackmount.
>
>
>   . | .   Heather Stern                  |         star at starshine.org
> --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - consulting at starshine.org
>   ' | `   Sysadmin Support and Training  |        (800) 938-4078


From joey_e_y_jr at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 15 15:26:43 2002
From: joey_e_y_jr at yahoo.com (Joseph Yetter)
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 15:26:43 -0700
Subject: rack related issues
In-Reply-To: <20020415110055.A8377@gemini.starshine.org>
Message-ID: <000001c1e4cc$9fa02b20$0201a8c0@gkar>



> Dean Kao wrote:
> >    In terms of the rack, can people with install experience give me
> >    some advice?  Anything would be great.
 
Heather Stern wrote:
>  I've limited experience in *installing* rack rather
>  than just using them but I should warn you that there
>  is more than one "standard"  size and the
>  difference has bitten people buying parts to rackmount.


Some comments on rack sizes and mounting...

The two sizes I typically see are called "19 inch" and "23 inch".
These refer to horizontal spacing between the rails. A "19 inch"
rack is about 17 3/4 inches between the two rails (According to
a quick check with my ruler). Most equipment (such as routers, etc.)
are setup for 19". There are adapters available to let you use
19" equipment in 23" racks. You sometimes need 23" to fit wide
equipment, like Sun Ultra60's laying on their side or E400s on
shelves. The colo's I have looked at have 23" racks inside the
cabinets, but my sample is small.

There is also equipment and shelves setup for 4 rails (front and
back) with about 24" between the front and back, although the
depth varies. They may be free standing, on wheels, or bolted down.

Another rack type uses two rails (sometimes called
relay-racks by Telecom folks) that actually have the back
holes about 6" behind the front ones on a piece of "channel"
aluminum. They bolt to the floor for stability. They may
need "ladder rack" or "cable tray" from the top to a wall to
help with stability.

The equipment you are mounting may have it's rackmount "ears" near
or at the front of the equipment, or it may be at the center
for balance in a relay-rack.

cheers
-joe
Joe Yetter





From joebsd1 at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 15 17:11:22 2002
From: joebsd1 at yahoo.com (joe bsd)
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 17:11:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: rack related issues
In-Reply-To: <731E36372B5FD248AF790189519A32C180DF88@mailhub.cgtime.com>
Message-ID: <20020416001122.79630.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com>

Hello,

I was just at weirdstuff today.  They had
about 10, 2 post aluminum racks for 75 dollars each.
They had quite a few cabinet type racks also.

  Guy


--- Daniel Curry <dcurry at cariocas.com> wrote:
> Just an FYI
> Wierdstuff USUALLY has several racks in their warehouse.  The pricing is
> not bad, either.  Shelves, slides, etc are also available, if you are
> willing to look for them.
> 
> Daniel Curry
> IT Manager
> Cariocas
> 625 Second Street 
> Suite 201
> San Francisco, CA 94107 
> ph: 415-348-6516
> fx: 415-348-6505 
> cell: 510-579-6680
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chuck Yerkes [mailto:chuck+baylisa at snew.com]
> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 1:18 PM
> To: Heather Stern
> Cc: Dean Kao; baylisa at baylisa.org
> Subject: Re: rack related issues
> 
> The standard EIA rack is 1U=1.75 inches with threaded holes
> that take 6/32 screwed.  I completely forget the spacing between
> the holes, but they too are standardized.  These standards date
> back to pre-50s and radio racks, I believe.
> 
> Quoting Heather Stern (star at starshine.org):
> > On Sat, Apr 13, 2002 at 11:18:01AM -0700, Dean Kao wrote:
> > > Hey guys
> > >
> > >    I was wondering where in the bay area I can pickup a rack,
> > > patch panel, and a rack mountable switch.  I know I can get
> > > these a rack and a patch panel at Frys but I dont think I've
> > > seen a rack mountable switch there.  Are there places that
> > > sell more rack mountable equipment around?  I'm also looking
> > > for cisco 2500s locally too.
> >
> > You can try Halted, aka "HSC"
> >
> > They definitely have racks - I saw some very tough ones there
> recently.
> > Equipment itself varies.
> >
> > >    In terms of the rack, can people with install experience give me
> > > some advice?  Anything would be great.
> > >
> > > Thanks!!
> > > Dean 
> >
> > I've limited experience in *installing* rack rather than just using
> them
> > but I should warn you that there is more than one "standard" size and
> the
> > difference has bitten people buying parts to rackmount.
> >
> >
> >   . | .   Heather Stern                  |         star at starshine.org
> > --->*<--- Starshine Technical Services - * - consulting at starshine.org
> >   ' | `   Sysadmin Support and Training  |        (800) 938-4078


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/


From claw at kanga.nu  Mon Apr 15 18:09:41 2002
From: claw at kanga.nu (J C Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 18:09:41 -0700
Subject: rack related issues 
In-Reply-To: Message from "Daniel Curry" <dcurry@cariocas.com> 
   of "Mon, 15 Apr 2002 14:11:00 PDT." <731E36372B5FD248AF790189519A32C180DF88@mailhub.cgtime.com> 
References: <731E36372B5FD248AF790189519A32C180DF88@mailhub.cgtime.com> 
Message-ID: <20226.1018919381@kanga.nu>

On Mon, 15 Apr 2002 14:11:00 -0700 
Daniel Curry <dcurry at cariocas.com> wrote:

> Just an FYI Wierdstuff USUALLY has several racks in their warehouse.
> The pricing is not bad, either.  Shelves, slides, etc are also
> available, if you are willing to look for them.

Having just been to weird stuff I can confirm that they indeed have man
racks (~15).  Halted, just off Lawrence/Central also has several racks,
and Action Computer (off Lawrence) seemed to have a Compaq rack off the
side as well.

-- 
J C Lawrence                
---------(*)                Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. 
claw at kanga.nu               He lived as a devil, eh?		  
http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/  Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live.


From claw at kanga.nu  Mon Apr 15 18:14:22 2002
From: claw at kanga.nu (J C Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 18:14:22 -0700
Subject: rack related issues 
In-Reply-To: Message from "Joseph Yetter" <joey_e_y_jr@yahoo.com> 
   of "Mon, 15 Apr 2002 15:26:43 PDT." <000001c1e4cc$9fa02b20$0201a8c0@gkar> 
References: <000001c1e4cc$9fa02b20$0201a8c0@gkar> 
Message-ID: <20282.1018919662@kanga.nu>

On Mon, 15 Apr 2002 15:26:43 -0700 
Joseph Yetter <joey_e_y_jr at yahoo.com> wrote:

> There is also equipment and shelves setup for 4 rails (front and back)
> with about 24" between the front and back, although the depth
> varies. They may be free standing, on wheels, or bolted down.

Slight addenda: I've seen four poster racks vary in depth (front/back)
from 22" thru 36".  In addition most 4 poster racks not only have
mounting holes along on the inside of each post (axis of the hole in
line with your sight when looking at the front of the rack), but lines
of mounting holes with their axis perpendicular to your line of sight
(commonly used for mounting side rails or the ends of sliding rails).

-- 
J C Lawrence                
---------(*)                Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. 
claw at kanga.nu               He lived as a devil, eh?		  
http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/  Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live.


From strata at virtual.net  Mon Apr 15 20:15:55 2002
From: strata at virtual.net (Strata Rose Chalup)
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 20:15:55 -0700
Subject: [Fwd: [SAGE] Call for volunteers for the new SAGE website]
Message-ID: <3CBB976B.45E75580@virtual.net>


I thought there might be some folks here who would be interested
who might not be on the sage-members email list.  Have fun!

SRC
-- 
========================================================================
Strata Rose Chalup [KF6NBZ]                      strata "@" virtual.net
VirtualNet Consulting                            http://www.virtual.net/
 ** Project Management & Architecture for ISP/ASP Systems Integration **
=========================================================================
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: Trey Harris <trey at sage.org>
Subject: [SAGE] Call for volunteers for the new SAGE website
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 18:55:57 -0400 (EDT)
Size: 4186
URL: <http://www.baylisa.org/pipermail/baylisa/attachments/20020415/bde16822/attachment.mht>

From rick at linuxmafia.com  Wed Apr 17 14:24:17 2002
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 14:24:17 -0700
Subject: Meeting notes, March 2002 BayLISA meeting
Message-ID: <20020417212416.GJ20339@linuxmafia.com>


BayLISA March 2002 Meeting
Thursday, 2002-03-21
John S. Flowers <jflowers at well.com>
nCircle Network Security

These are some meeting casual meetings I took during the meeting.  John
says he'll post his slides to http://www.johnflowers.com/ .  (Not there,
yet.)


Security: Our networks are under attack, with more attack tools applied
to the job all the time.  Unfortunately, the security industry
concentrates on attacks, having seemingly given up on identification,
discovery, risk management, business consequences of exposures, and
quantifying the skill required to exploit vulnerabilities. 

Security "experts" tend to understand the technology but not the
network, e.g., recommendation from large accounting firm with initials
"AA" to a large database firm with name starting with "O" that the
latter turn off its RealVideo streaming server as "dangerous". Real need
is for prevention, not alarms:  Need relevant data.  Know your devices:
In a survey of firms' sysadmins, no firm studied could report its number
of IP-address-bearing devices in current service to closer than 300%
wrong.  

Understand your exposures, and then map your policy to the exposures:
Have to understand the threat environment.  [At this point, John showed
a Cartesian-style graph for plotting threats on two axes:  directed vs.
random, benign vs. lethal.]  Denial of service is classified as
relatively benign:  The measure for determining lethality is
accountability.  In a DoS, you don't lose anything (much, at least not
long-term).  By contrast, an escalation of privilege is on the
benign/lethal border.

IDSes are focussed on random threats, not directed ones, despite the
fact that directed threats are much more serious.  Threats classifiable
as both lethal and directed (the most dire) include information theft
and reputation loss.  

Numbers of exploits tend to rise exponentially over time against any
fixed target (e.g., a software system), even though exposure by
contrast grows only linearly.  (For every exposure, there are many
possible exploits.)  

IDSes can't keep up with the rate of traffic going across the wire.
|DSes produce ridiculous amounts of false positives.  They're incapable
of judging the validity of an attack.  They are vulnerable to
data-obfuscation techniques (polymorphise the code, stream reassembly,
unicode exploits).  Consequently, the reality of their operation is
notification _after_ the fact, endless false alarms, and the reported 
origin address of genuine attacks are almost never valid -- only those
of false alarms.  The process is exhausting to the sysadmin, who spends 
his time sifting through logs and responding to alerts.

Three categories of intrusion can be detected: information gathering,
DoS, escalation of privilege.  Latter is the one most keenly of
interest (having the greatest chance of being fatal).  IDS needs to
detect all escalations, as a minimal requirement.

John conducted a test of IDSes -- RealSecure from ISS, Dragon from
Enterasys, and others that had to be omitted after their producers
raised a fuss.  Generated test data using, at first, the "Stick"
codebase, which turned out to be too buggy and unusable, and then "Snot"
(http://www.sec33.com/sniph/).  Snot is a utility designed using the 
Snort IDS's pattern-matching set, and grinds out network traffic
designed to trigger Snort and similar IDS software.  John used Snot to
generate 60 seconds of "attack" data, running through 986 Snort rules
against a Class C IP netblock, running on a stock FreeBSD 4.4 machine --
80,400 attack signatures sent.  Results:  RealSecure went deaf and dumb
for 17 minutes, and turned out to have logged 28,400 events, and claimed
to have "missed" (tried to catch, but dropped) 7,219 events.  Slowing
down the attack did _not_ result in 100% detection, but only reached
maybe 40,000.  

The concept of tracking state of network connections as a way to catch
attack probes is not necessarily useful:  Is tracking SYN flood "state" 
useful?  Is there state to track from a probe that installs a backdoor
without returning anything?  How about a probe that does "rm -rf /"?
More fundamentally, looking at inbound patterns is the wrong side of the
problem:  The monitoring software should look at the resources at risk,
instead.  Maybe in a future test, we'll connect "snot" with nmap or amap.
(Note that IDSes should have reported zero real attacks from "snot" on 
the wire.)  

Network security _is_ security.  Use a physical security model:  
Establish security, assess all exposures, eliminate unnecessary 
exposures, put alarms on everything else.  (Banks spend more on safes
than on alarms.)  The earlier a problem is caught, the less expensive
the results.  You cannot protect what you don't understand.

Design of current IDSes -- detect intrusion, provide an alarm when
you've been attacked -- mean current examples are broken.  Future
ones must meet those criteria better.  

Premises:  

o  Reconnaissance is not an attack.  Information should be treated 
   as information, attacks as attacks.
o  Propose "scruffy thinking" shift for IDSes:  It's the actual 
   attack that's of concern, not the pattern.
o  Attacks happen at the _application_ layer; people don't attack OSes.
o  Every application, no matter how obfuscated, should produce a 
   one-to-one response to attacks.  (How do you measure attacks, as 
   opposed to anomalous junk on the wire?)  E.g., try to buffer-overflow
   a bunch of apps, note down what happens, write signature files based
   on observations.

 Summary:  Security should be based on _policy_.  (Know network, know
 assets, know exposures.)  Every network has commonalities (servers,
 apps, exposures).  Every network is unique, though.

 Attacks against non-existent, non-vulnerable services (e.g., honeypots)
 are b.s.  (Story of $16,000 PacBell bill for pager bills run up during 
 the first 18 minutes of one IDS's operation.)  Enforcing _network policy_
 is the most important consideration.  Not all servers should be patched
 (dependencies).  An attack does not equal an "attack".  

 Traditional IDSes do not work:  Today's IDS doesn't understand the
 network, and no single IDS metaphor works for everything.  Think about
 security in the real world!  Thus:  IDSes as we know them are dead.
 New, more-active solutions will emerge.  Outsourcing network security
 should go away:  Security is a business problem.  Security is about
 policy.  Security gurus, unfortunately, understand only security holes,
 not the network:  "You can't run that; it's insecure."  Traditional IT
 (i.e., sysadmins) will take back security when companies grab the clue
 stick.

---




Announcements on the whiteboard:

Linuxcare, seeking usability/user interface person
Contact: Christopher Mann
r3cgm at linuxcare.com

DOSSIER documentation series:
http://www.ptf.com/dossier

Incyte Genomics, job opportunities
Sun Cluster Admin
Veritas: Volume Manager Cluster for (ASM?)
Contact: bl at incyte.com

-- 
Cheers,     Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based, 
Rick Moen   not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed,
rick at linuxmafia.com     modern-American-English-usage-improvement association.


From rick at linuxmafia.com  Wed Apr 17 14:59:19 2002
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 14:59:19 -0700
Subject: Meeting notes, March 2002 BayLISA meeting
In-Reply-To: <20020417212416.GJ20339@linuxmafia.com>
References: <20020417212416.GJ20339@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <20020417215919.GM20339@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting myself:

> These are some meeting casual meetings I took during the meeting.

Heh.  So much for proofreading.  Here's hoping I do better with tomorrow
evening's notes.



From jxh at jxh.com  Wed Apr 17 15:11:16 2002
From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein)
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 15:11:16 -0700
Subject: Meeting notes, March 2002 BayLISA meeting
In-Reply-To: <20020417212416.GJ20339@linuxmafia.com>
References: <20020417212416.GJ20339@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <18940000.1019081476@jxh.mirapoint.com>

This is _excellent_ stuff.  Thank you very much, Rick!  (I wasn't able to 
attend this meeting, so I found it particularly valuable.)

We need one of these for every meeting, from now on.  How many can you do 
before you burn out. :-)  Seriously, can we get some more volunteers, who 
will maintain this high standard?


From rick at linuxmafia.com  Wed Apr 17 15:18:59 2002
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 15:18:59 -0700
Subject: Meeting notes, March 2002 BayLISA meeting
In-Reply-To: <18940000.1019081476@jxh.mirapoint.com>
References: <20020417212416.GJ20339@linuxmafia.com> <18940000.1019081476@jxh.mirapoint.com>
Message-ID: <20020417221859.GP20339@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Jim Hickstein (jxh at jxh.com):

> This is _excellent_ stuff.  Thank you very much, Rick!  (I wasn't able to 
> attend this meeting, so I found it particularly valuable.)
> 
> We need one of these for every meeting, from now on.  How many can you do 
> before you burn out. :-)  Seriously, can we get some more volunteers, who 
> will maintain this high standard?

That would be helpful, of course!  Even though my plan is to keep doing
these routinely, I'm sure there will be some months when I can't make it.

-- 
Cheers,
Rick Moen                      "vi is my shepherd; I shall not font."
rick at linuxmafia.com                               -- Psalm 0.1 beta


From star at starshine.org  Thu Apr 18 12:49:04 2002
From: star at starshine.org (Heather Stern)
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 12:49:04 -0700
Subject: BayLISA tonight, 7:30 pm
Message-ID: <20020418124904.B5941@gemini.starshine.org>


  For those who haven't been paying attention to the traffic of the day
  on the BayLISA lists because you're a bit busier than that... that's
  right, the meeting is tonight.

  Our speaker is Adam Sah.  The more boxen we have the more logs we have
  until we're drowning in it.  He'll describe how we usually pull ourselves
  out of such mires, and his own project for dealing with the same at the
  large scale.

  With a real example :)

  ... as noted before we are having a bit of a membership drive, so:

	We will give a raincheck of $20 to any member or non-member who
	brings us someone else as a new member.

	Corporate sponsors for BayLISA are being sought; you can contact
	Alberto (treasurer at baylisa.org) or bring the manager or exec to
	a BayLISA meeting and let them see for themselves what it's worth
	to them.   As these sort of sponsorships go we have a fairly 
	affordable rate available.

  ... and in case anybody needs directions:

	We're at Incyte Genomics in Palo Alto, near Porter Drive and Page
	Mill.  See http://www.baylisa.org/locations/current.html for details.

  We're planning afterdinner at a new place so stick around for directions
  before heading off to it.  See you all at the meeting!

-* Heather Stern * Arch (secretary) BayLISA Board * http://www.baylisa.org/ *-
	


From jhoney at flash.net  Fri Apr 19 09:28:41 2002
From: jhoney at flash.net (jhoney at flash.net)
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 11:28:41 -0500
Subject: c'mere Junior
Message-ID: <3CC045B9.3010707@flash.net>

Is it me or does this seem like a misappropriation of the term 'Junior'? 
 Seems more like a way to make it very clear to an applicant that we 
expect a lot from you but we won't pay for it.

++++++++

Junior Network Administrator

Who we are: One of the world's leading computer training companies that 
offer computer-based training for corporate sponsored individuals and 
groups. We can offer excellent benefits, salary and a pleasant, yet 
fast-paced working environment.

Who you are: NT 4.0 MCSE with at least 2 years of practical experience 
in a production environment. Customer-service oriented and a can-do 
attitude. The responsibilities cover back office desk-side computer 
support, computer network administration (NT4.0 & W2K), email server 
administration (Exchange 5.5), enterprise network security, anti-virus 
program administration (Norton), backup software administration 
(Veritas), firewall administration and VPN, web server administration 
(IIS 5) as well as low-level web development for specific company 
related projects.

The bulk of duties involve the operationally critical task of preparing 
and maintaining seven classrooms. Candidate must have in-depth 
understanding of TCPIP, DNS, and HTML. Familiarity with Norton Ghost, 
NOVELL, LINUX and SQL very helpful.

Submit your resume and cover letter with salary requirements for 
immediate consideration to employment at xxxxxxxxxx. We are looking to fill 
this position as soon as possible and interviews will be scheduled 
immediately.
 




From ulf at Alameda.net  Mon Apr 22 23:29:24 2002
From: ulf at Alameda.net (Ulf Zimmermann)
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 23:29:24 -0700
Subject: Trademark/Servicemark laywer wanted
Message-ID: <20020422232924.I62601@seven.alameda.net>

Hello,

can anyone recommend me a trademark/service mark (in conjunction with
company names and domains) lawyer ? Tried one laywer, but that was
person was unfortunatly not even able to call up an URL when given.

-- 
Regards, Ulf.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-865-0204
You can find my resume at: http://seven.Alameda.net/~ulf/resume.html


From alex at usenix.org  Tue Apr 23 14:24:52 2002
From: alex at usenix.org (Alex Walker)
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 14:24:52 -0700
Subject: Get Involved - 16th Systems Administration Conference 	(LISA 2002)
Message-ID: <3CC5D124.1020203@usenix.org>

There is still time to submit your ideas, proposals, and papers for
invited talks, refereed papers, work-in-progress reports, and symposia
tracks at LISA 2002!

Submissions are due Monday, April 29, 2002.

LISA 2002
November 3-8, 2002
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
http://www.usenix.org/events/lisa02

GET INVOLVED!

We welcome submissions that address all facets of the practice and
theory of system and network administration.

The Call for Papers with submission guidelines and topics is available
on the USENIX Web site at http://www.usenix.org/events/lisa02/cfp/index.html

System administrators and researchers: this is *your* conference. You
can foster its community and aid in its success in many ways by
contributing your ideas and expertise.

We look forward to hearing from you!

Sincerely,
Alva Couch, Tufts University
LISA 2002 Program Chair

=============================================================
LISA 2002 is sponsored by USENIX, the Advanced Computing Systems
Association, and SAGE, the System Administrators Guild. www.usenix.org
=============================================================












From rjwitte at rjwitte.com  Tue Apr 30 20:05:50 2002
From: rjwitte at rjwitte.com (Russel J. Witte)
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 20:05:50 -0700
Subject: Verisign/NetSol: FW: Misleading Advertising
Message-ID: <HEEMKGJDBMHGLNPAFEJFGEAJCCAA.rjwitte@rjwitte.com>

This is Verisign's response to my complaint that they began "billing" for a
domain that doesn't expire for 6 more months. I never gave them any
information concerning this domain, they simply harvested it from the
opensrs database. BTW, I checked with the Silicon Valley Better Business
Bureau ... check out their "unsatisfactory record" :

http://www.bbbsilicon.org/commonreport.html?compid=204813

Well, I guess I start moving my clients from Versign/Network Solutions,
Verisign Cybercash/Payflow and Versign secure certificates... I no longer
"trust" them and will consider their email to be spam.

Russ

-----Original Message-----
From: websitesales at verisign.com [mailto:websitesales at verisign.com]
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 9:16 AM
To: rjwitte at rjwitte.com
Subject: RE: Misleading Advertising


Should you need further assistance regarding this matter, please reference
Service Request # 1-1CZD9G.

Thank you for contacting VeriSign.

The domain name transfer and renewal notice that you recently received was
sent to inform you of our domain name renewal rate. Since you are not
required to renew your domain name with your current registrar, we hope
you'll choose to transfer and renew your domain name with VeriSign.

Our current annual domain name renewal rate of $29.00 includes a variety of
services FREE of charge. By transferring your domain name to VeriSign, you
will extend your registration period by one year, gain FREE access to use
our 24/7 customer support and have use of a our Web-based interface to
manage your account.

Plus, we offer an array of value-added services such as personalized e-mail
and customizable Web site packages. We are committed to giving you
everything you need for a powerful Web presence.

If you have been thinking about transferring your domain registration, now
is your chance. To take advantage of our $29.00 annual renewal rate,
simply, complete and sign the transfer and renewal form we sent you - today.

Best regards,
David R.

VeriSign, Inc.
http://www.networksolutions.com


TRACKING NUMBER: A00000321937-00002728517

     -----Original Message-----


     From: rjwitte at rjwitte.com
     Sent: Friday, Apr 26 2002 07:45 PM
     To: websitesales at verisign.com
     Cc: 3hearts at comcast.net
     Subject: Misleading Advertising

     Dear Sir or Madam,

I recently received a "Domain Name Expiration Notice" for 6 domains that I
registered for a client with another registrar. This "Notice" appears
deceptively like a bill. I expect better from a company that advertises "The
value of Trust". This is untrustworthy and unethical advertising and I
believe this is causing enormous bad-will for your company. I urge you to
reconsider this campaign.

Sincerely,

Russel Witte




From jxh at jxh.com  Tue Apr 30 21:02:03 2002
From: jxh at jxh.com (Jim Hickstein)
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 21:02:03 -0700
Subject: Verisign/NetSol: FW: Misleading Advertising
In-Reply-To: <HEEMKGJDBMHGLNPAFEJFGEAJCCAA.rjwitte@rjwitte.com>
References: <HEEMKGJDBMHGLNPAFEJFGEAJCCAA.rjwitte@rjwitte.com>
Message-ID: <10447800.1020200523@[10.9.18.6]>

I fired NSI some time ago, shortly after they started selling the WHOIS 
database in bulk.  Even after I took the trouble to opt out in writing, I 
still get spam at that address (which I now use for nothing else; it's 
slated to go directly to razor-report soon).

Check out www.domainmonger.com, an OpenSRS reseller that I've found 
responsive to my needs.  One person there, when I asked whether they would 
ever sell the billing address which they necessarily compel me to provide, 
said, "Several people here would have to die horrible deaths before that 
would happen."  So far, I'm happy.  Nothing to disclose, just a satisfied 
customer.



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Tue Apr 30 22:33:29 2002
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 22:33:29 -0700
Subject: Verisign/NetSol: FW: Misleading Advertising
In-Reply-To: <HEEMKGJDBMHGLNPAFEJFGEAJCCAA.rjwitte@rjwitte.com>
References: <HEEMKGJDBMHGLNPAFEJFGEAJCCAA.rjwitte@rjwitte.com>
Message-ID: <20020501053329.GQ18590@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Russel J. Witte (rjwitte at rjwitte.com):

> This is Verisign's response to my complaint that they began "billing"
> for a domain that doesn't expire for 6 more months. I never gave them
> any information concerning this domain, they simply harvested it from
> the opensrs database. BTW, I checked with the Silicon Valley Better
> Business Bureau ... check out their "unsatisfactory record" :
> 
> http://www.bbbsilicon.org/commonreport.html?compid=204813

You could further the worthy goal of putting these crooks out of
business by _also_ filing a complaint with the Federal Trade Commission.
Just a thought.

I already have verisign.com and several captive spamhaus domains
permanently consigned to the Outer Darkness, and don't see their mail
any more:


:0:
* ^From:.*listmngr at LISTS.NETSOL.COM
/dev/null
#Spam-mail from Network Solutions/InterNIC, starting 7/99.

:0:
* ^From:.*netsol.com
/dev/null
#Eh, the hell with them.

:0:
* ^From:.*networksolutions.com
/dev/null
#Them, too.

:0:
* ^From:.*nsi.com
/dev/null
#And them.

:0:
* ^From:.*verisign.com
/dev/null
#And their little dog, too.

:0:
* ^From:.*nsi-direct.com
/dev/null
#More of same, starting 2000-08.

:0:
* ^From:.*netsol*@integram.org
/dev/null
#More spam from Network Solutions.

:0:
* ^From:.*thedotcompeople*
/dev/null
#More spam from Network Solutions.



From star at starshine.org  Tue Apr 30 23:21:28 2002
From: star at starshine.org (Heather Stern)
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 23:21:28 -0700
Subject: SVLUG topic has a sysadmin focus this month
Message-ID: <20020430232128.A23638@gemini.starshine.org>


  The topic at SVLUG this wednesday (probably "tonight" by the time you
  see this) is "Switched Storage Networks for Linux".   I figured it 
  might be of interest to BayLISA folks.

  As usual all the details about how to get to Cisco Building 9 are
  available on the www.svlug.org website.

  If you go, perhaps I'll see you there :)

 Heather Stern - star at starshine.org -*- Starshine Technical Services
        Sysadmin Support & Training -*- consulting at starshine.org